Learning to Think Critically

2010 ,    » 1,745 Comments

Learning to Think CriticallyFrom the author: Despite great strides in our understanding, the average person still does not understand science in the facts or in the practice, and instead fills the void with pseudoscience.

This reflects a worldview that values an emphasis on commonly accepted, traditional lore, and a general disinterest in the role of science and reason in our lives.

Science is perceived by the media, government, and popular conciousness as something that happens to other people.

This is unacceptable. We need to find a way to reach out with reason to the unreasonable, with knowledge to the ignorant, or else we will be unprepared when the moment of crisis finally arrives. There has never been a more important time to value and respect science, technology and reason.

Those who value science can not retreat into their academic towers. We are dependent on popular, political support for this effort, and we will never advance to the next stage without overwhelming public momentum. Outreach is essential, and it can start anywhere, and at any level.

I have a message and a challenge to all viewers. Do something to raise awareness of the role of science in our society, the importance of reason. Take it as a personal responsibility, or no-one will.

Watch the full documentary now (playlist - 2 hours, 18 minutes)

Ratings: 6.66/10 from 88 users.

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1,745 Comments / User Reviews

  1. Mercenarry ForHire

    To borrow a metaphor "The rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer."

    If this is true, the same can be said about knowledge..

  2. John Krisfalusci

    When I was a little boy, I was given old Encyclopedia Britannicas and a very tattered 1958 Guiness Book of World Records as my only form of entertainment. Now I am a successful hacker and atheist. LOL I'm the happiest person on Earth! ^_^

  3. CapnCanard

    Science good.... But here is the major problem with this documentary on "how to think critically": it doesn't tell those who don't think critically, how someone can actually learn how to think critically. What are the steps to determining the validity of an argument, and that is just the tip of the iceberg!!! The filmmaker would be far better served to have a philosopher instruct people on thinking critically and leave his very obvious and unavoidable bias out of the debate as that just obfuscates reality. Electrons are smaller than atoms, YES, but size is tricky with amorphous and relatively indefinable place and location. Electrons are nothing more than fields, or clouds of potential. We just don't know, no one does... we have demonstrable evidence but not all, not even a large minority, will ever get the opportunity to experience those same experiments and measurements, and that is a major problem for this film maker. He gets lost in the weeds of his own discipline with regard to viral causation and correlation in contrast to how he started out complaining about a vast majority who don't "get it". Well he needs to some real basic VERY BASIC, level of instruction on investigation of the validity of argument. Very mediocre documentary. 'nuff said...

  4. Robm

    One thing that is overlooked about "science", is how credible are the scientists.
    Scientists are susceptible not only to pseudoscience, but money and greed as much as any other profession. The critical thinker not only needs to look at the data, but at the source and motivation behind it. If this is not done independently, science (scientific community) can become the new source of lore.
    Different types of science have different levels of credibility, medicine is a highly profitable industry, not an area of idealistic scientific study as we are led believe. It is filled with propaganda, and fear mongering, with lobbyists out to promote their profit minded employers. You don't see scientists promoting evolution or the big bang theory so engaged...don't let pseudoscience or lore labeled as science cloud YOUR vision.

  5. Re_dok

    What do you mean, "...witches of all things..."? Witches are practitioners of the religion of Wicca. I see no benefit in alienating people of any given religion or philosophy by expressing incredulity regarding their beliefs. Otherwise, I enjoyed this preview.

  6. AvidReader

    depends on if you mean rich strictly in monetary value. i believe there is a bigger barrier for the financially poor to get rich then ever. in contrast the financially poor can still get vast knowledge if they have the internet.

  7. Al Gore

    Bu..bu...but theres a scientific consensus that human carbon emissions are heating up the earth and the only way to fix it is to tax everyone so i can get rich..er...i mean save the planet.....ya thats it....

  8. over the edge

    the test in the first part and the sheer number of people who manage to get so many things wrong scares me terribly.

  9. over the edge

    Al Gore
    you are partially right. yes there is a consensus that climate change is happening. they have strong evidence as to what are some of the things that may be causing the change. but science in no way states that a tax will fix it. that is a proposal that is put forward by businesses, think tanks,governments and so on. and yes some of those people contained within these groups are scientists. but as you made the statement and did not say it was only an opinion you can show the proof that a carbon tax is the only way to fix it is a scientific consensus right?

  10. dmxi

    isn't it easier to control the 'unknowing',the'scientific illiterate' & the 'pseudo
    -scientific airheads'?researching how the general schooling-system has been
    'infiltrated' maybe a start for anyone interested?!

  11. lakhotason

    In the first episode the narrator includes common law as lore. I really do not understand common law being classified as lore.

  12. Rowansky

    I was into it until the vaccinations. Denial sir. Vaccinations=$$$ and a soft kill!!

  13. Jack1952

    I am old enough to remember the horror of polio, a disease for which there is no cure. When I was in primary school, a vaccination program began in which all children were vaccinated against polio. In a few short years, polio became a thing of the past and is now eliminated all around the world...except in countries where people, like you, who believe that vaccinations are a method employed by western interests to eliminate them. Their children still live under the threat of this terrible disease.

    Just because someone is making money off it, doesn't mean the science behind it isn't valid. Scientific principles also provided the means to create the computer hardware and software that allowed you to make such an uninformed statement over the internet. There are those who have become exceedingly rich in the computer industry. They make money and yet your computer works. Strange.

    You are allowing the message of the film to be obscured by your own personal biases and ideas. Scientists are human and are prone to error and self interest. If your idea is valid, use critical thinking or the scientific method to demonstrate why it is. Crying B.S. and money talks proves absolutely nothing. Show an incidence where you can be proven to be correct. Provide facts and data that support your claim. That is what this film is telling you to do. You won't though. If you do respond it will be to tell me that I'm brainwashed.

  14. Miikalyn

    I can no longer watch this video. For claiming to be a "scientific" and therefore objective observer, this guy really hasn't done his research. I agree that most people in the world could use a brush up or two on some of the currently accepted scientific theories of our age, and that education should be a gigantic worldwide priority...but you cannot presume to throw all new or non-proven theories into the category of "lore". ESP, Clairvoyance, psychic phenomena...these are things that even the grandfather of modern psychology Carl Jung accepted, observed, experienced and documented. Though we do not have complete explanations (probably because our current view of science is flawed), there is a surprising amount of evidence to suggest that these events do happen.

    Natural Medicine is in no way a pseudo science and if you ask me, it is often MORE reliable than our modern "medical" science that has only been around a mere two hundred years or so. Though the information coming from anyone's lips may be flawed, a little research goes a long way. Onion's are well known for thousands of years to posses the ability to draw poison from the body when placed on the skin and I've personally used them to draw fever and bug bite infection. Just because something natural isn't as instant or as powerful as modern prescriptions certainly doesn't mean it's false. Millions die as a result of our modern medicine every year...while simple inventions such as vaccines and soap has eliminated the risk of contracting viruses, through "modern science" we've managed to exponentially increase chronic illness...

    No matter what you think about all of that, critical thinking is doing your own thinking, not accepting the thinking of others as fact, even scientists...you must learn to question everything and do the logic in your own brain. And actually once you begin to think critically you find that much of our modern science isn't necessarily based on anything objective.

  15. Vlatko


    ESP, Clairvoyance, psychic phenomena... there is a surprising amount of evidence to suggest that these events do happen.

    Could you please show us the evidence.

  16. JaniMyshtari

    I'm very torn about this video, I must say. I agree completely that it is important for people to have a good understanding of science and reason and that critical thinking is vital to this pursuit, but the video's author seems to accept science as an unqualified good in and of itself. This thinking is as dangerous as complete scientific ignorance in my opinion, perhaps moreso because no number of uneducated people will ever cook up something as terrifying as a hydrogen bomb, but uncounted technological horrors have poured forth from the entirely rational minds of often well-meaning people.

    This is not to say that all scientific research and reasoned inquiry should be abandoned, but it is to say that we shouldn't replace worship of supernatural and paranormal forces with a complete embrace of pure logic, which can be every bit as destructive as pure illogic. Where I and the author of this vid agree is that one answer is for everyone to be more knowledgeable about both the good and bad sides of science. Science has brought us both indoor lighting and the electric chair, both nuclear power and nuclear annihilation, cures for diseases as well as designer viruses, wonderful advances and terrible weapons. Science is morally neutral and in itself unconcerned with the results of discoveries made in its name. It is up to us to use the power it gives us responsibly. I'm not religious at all, but I feel I am a moral person, and as such I must keep in mind that logic is a double-edged blade that has been used to justify terrible injustices and crimes even as it has uplifted humanity from the mire of ignorance it lived in for millenia.

  17. Achems_Razor


    I disagree, science SHOULD replace all forms of any type of supernatural, religious, paranormal worship, in that regard logic should always prevail, the majority of people are dumbed down enough already by the religious majority. Every sentient being in the universe knows right from wrong.

  18. Boyd

    This is an add by and for the medical field... ummmm yes .

  19. over the edge

    you state "but you cannot presume to throw all new or non-proven theories into the category of "lore". ESP, Clairvoyance, psychic phenomena" why not? not only are these things not proven they also are in conflict with many things we do know. anyone is welcome to apply the scientific method to these claims and do the work and provide the results. until that time why should science or any rational person accept these things? and your appeal to authority with "these are things that even the grandfather of modern psychology Carl Jung accepted". first what repeatable tests did he develop and please show the peer reviewed results of his conclusions. i can name many brilliant people who believed strange things (newton studied alchemy). having one idea proven does not make all their ideas right. "Natural Medicine is in no way a pseudo science" again do you have impartial peer reviewed ,repeatable evidence for that claim? your definition of critical thinking is flawed in my opinion. i would define it as simply letting the facts and evidence that are most reliable and demonstrable reach the conclusions for you regardless of personal,social or popular views.

  20. over the edge

    science is neither good or bad. it is a methodology that provides the most consistently reliable explanations for the natural world. it provides tools and information that is all. how that information or tools are used is not what science concerns itself with. now if you have said that there have been scientists and others that have used these things for bad reasons i would agree completely.

  21. Innovation Blues

    Science is important but this guy is blinded by not thinking outside the 'science' box, he actually has made it rather boring.

    He might have well just said, "We need to be more aware of science". Shown some interesting discoveries and how they have helped the world, backed up by statistical concerns that most people don't know enough. Then made his point of increasing awareness.

    The fact he supports Al Gore and his profit gains from carbon credits is silly and shows he is blinded as much as most.

    It's as if he wants to promote Science by making people feel stupid. When he just ends up looking stupid and frustrating people.

    Science has one important factor, nothing is ever proven for good, only within our current understanding we generally agree on x or y.
    Not x or y is FACT and people are stupid for not knowing this.

  22. Vlatko

    @Innovation Blues,

    You don't need Al Gore. 97% of the scientist agree that man-made climate change is real. And it is indeed. Maybe it is tiny in the context of major non man-made climate cataclysms that happened over time, but it is real.

    You say nothing is ever proven for good. I say thousands of things are proven for good. You have 23 pairs of chromosomes and no matter how our current understanding changes, you'll still have the same number of chromosomes.

    Only few things in science are generally agreed on x or y, and with a solid reason to do so. The majority of the scientific work is hard core, observed, tested, measured, and/or mathematically proven facts.

  23. Leonid Basin

    Great! Thank you!

  24. robertallen1

    " . . . having one idea proven does not make all their ideas right." I like that. So much for quotes from authority.

  25. Revilo

    I love it!
    I'm just as foolish...
    Thats why I come here!

    P.S. I was talking about some esp experiment done with a "meter machine" that "read" the ~esp emotion~ of a cities population, where the machine was stationed; london, san fran etc.

    Anyone know what the project name/doc was?

  26. drinker69

    What I remember about science in my youth, was taught to me by Ice-T the rapper. He summed up all I needed to know, all WE needed to know with one lyrical stroke of wisdom.
    Liquid solid gas we'll be kickin a*s!

  27. Mike Stirton

    97% eh? And this 97% is made up mostly of individuals who are not climate scientists themselves, but people in other fields like Biology (Suzuki for example). THAT is critical thinking, knowing that the AGW agenda of the IPCC was made up largely of scientists who were not themselves learned in climate.

    Plenty of people in the camp of AGW often stated that storm events like that seen with Hurricane Katrina would progressively get worse. Thing is, since then, many of the storms have themselves not gotten any worse. Year after year, the predictions of doom and gloom have yet to show themselves. Climate models are only as good as the data fed into them.

    Much of the AGW agenda tells us that CO2 concentrations are the cause, yet historically, CO2 concentration increases have always followed a warming trend, not the other way around.

    Science is only fallible if the data on a particular subject is flawed somewhere in the progress of any that research. New discoveries can change past knowledge...everyone at one time fully believed the earth was the center of the universe based partially on religious dogma and some on scientific conjecture...then someone came along and "corrected" that belief, primarily showing that sometimes we do not have all the data we need to actually prove something.

    We would not have discovered the atom without previous research that led to it. We would not have went into space without the previous research that led to it. Understanding in these quantifiable sciences would never have come to pass if preceding science had flawed assumptions somewhere in the building blocks of a particular part of the whole.

    Climatologists themselves can barely predict weather beyond a couple weeks, and even then, they are sometimes wrong and have to adjust their models for the accuracy we see for a week, and yet there are people who take stock in the long term predictions of a group of scientists who do not have the credentials to call themselves climatologists.

    Nay, what I see from the AGW crowd is NOT critical thinking. What I see is lemmings being led to the slaughter.

  28. Candace Sturtevant

    I just had a DTaP injection a few weeks ago. Proud of it. Diptheria can kill you by forming a membrane over your throat causing you to not be able to breathe. Tetanus is in dirt, and is also known as "lockjaw" because it often targets the muscles of the jaw. Pertussis is also known as "whooping cough" because of the sound of the cough you get as a symptom of the disease. You should get a DTap vaccine; if you fell in a filthy creek that over flowed, and flooded part of this little town I live in with a wheat stubble field, which consists of dirt, agricultural chemicals, possibly animal waste, and wheat straw. In this State of Oregon, children are required to have DTaP vaccines administered to be in 6th to 12 grades of school. Vaccines are important. You should get them.

    Do you know Hepatitis B can live in dried blood on a surface for a week? Think about that, when you think vaccines are unsafe. Okay?
    Further, there are no "chips" being put in you with your yearly influenza vaccination as I know having giving 1000's of them to clients over the past 25 years.

    Science is theory that has been tested and proven to have the same results under the same circumstances time after time. That's awesome and the real world, baby.

  29. Phil Pilgrim99

    The section on chiropractic is amazingly biased for a video titled "Learning to Think Critically". It's so biased as to be downright dishonest. Didn't watch the rest of it. Phil

  30. Vlatko

    @Phil Pilgrim99,

    There is zero solid evidence in favor of chiropractic. Given that you know what "evidence" really mean. Period.

  31. Phil Pilgrim99

    Personal testimony is a form of evidence, wouldn't you agree ? and many people including myself testify to its value in treating skeleton problems, and it's definitely not placebo in my case - didn't get the placebo effect when my normal doc tried treating the problem, didn't get a placebo effect when the physiotherapist tried to fix it.

  32. Vlatko

    @Phil Pilgrim99,

    "Personal testimony is a form of evidence, wouldn't you agree?"

    Of course not. I can personally testify that I saw a vampire last night. Is that an evidence?

    Scientific method does not take into account subjective claims from an individuals. What you need in this case is a successful test on a large random sample (huge chunk of a diverse population) that can be repeated over and over again with the same results, all over the globe.

    Now who is dishonest? The maker of this video or you? You don't think critically, you are biased.

  33. Jack1952

    Science does not change. Ever. It is our understanding of scientific principles that changes. When we begin to study a scientific discipline we start with limited knowledge. We arrive at ideas and theories based on the limited information we have, believing that this is where this information is directing us. As we learn more, we may find that our database of knowledge is incomplete and the theory that we arrived at must change. The science didn't change. It was always there, consistent and unchanging. It was our perception of our field of study that changed because we didn't fully understand the topic in the first place.

    Think of it as it were a murder investigation. Bob kills Joe. Bob covers his tracks really well. The police officer assigned to the case can't figure out who killed Joe because he doesn't have enough information to suspect Bob of the crime. Six months later, the officer says that he has enough information to suspect certain individuals of the crime but nothing that points to Bob. This doesn't mean that Bob didn't kill Joe. It means to a third party observer, that there is not enough information to indicate Bob as the killer. If the police officer discovers a solid clue that confirms Bob did commit the crime it doesn't mean the crime has now changed. It means the perception of the police officer has changed. Science works in the same way.

  34. robertallen1

    Now, what did the documentary have to say about anecdotes?

  35. Canigetawoohoo

    Could someone explain to me why some "rationally thinking" people respond so irrationally when confronted with yet unexplained phenomena, and by irrationally I mean treating the curious as imbeciles? (This is also obviously true the other way round...)
    The whole debate of "science" vs "belief" is just another false dichotomy that only hinders the progress we make in understanding reality.
    Keep an eye on both worlds and eventually they will become one;-)

  36. Adam Young

    can an Ant fathom your existence ? as humans we are not the summit in intelligence. fact is other animals exist that have individual senses that supersede our own, meaning they have something they could teach us. yes we have learned much but the real issue, the only issue that matters is there life after death ?. you hastily blurt out " of course there isn't " congratulations!, everybody watching now knows where the biggest idiot in the room is. not because you clearly don't believe in God, not because you trust in science. it's because you claim to know something so beyond your reach. so much more beyond reach than the Ant with it's little grain of sand sized brain. but it is in this moment we discover which of science's followers are all about the quest for truth or the quest for intellectual praise and awards.

  37. robertallen1

    Yes. It will all be science.

  38. Canigetawoohoo


  39. robertallen1

    There is nothing to disagree with in this documentary and a lot to learn, especially about the use of evolution in day-to-day science and medicine. But the presentation leaves a lot to be desired. The graphics are boring and I could have read through what the narrator has to say in his monotonous tone in a lot less time. One thing I found annoying was that although the narrator went to great lengths to demonstrate the pitfalls of quote-mining (citing from authority), he ended the section on evolution with an obviously mined quote from Francisco Ayala. While I have the greatest respect for Dr. Ayala and agree with the contents of the quote, the narrator has fallen down his own hole.

  40. over the edge

    you asked "explain to me why some "rationally thinking" people respond so irrationally " it could be because they are having a conversation with someone who just had their concerns/questions addressed rationally in a doc and they still display the signs of not understanding why i do not accept their claims. so maybe another approach is warranted. secondly most of the replies are attacking/insulting an idea not the person and if you don't want your ideas laughed at stop having such funny ideas. when you say ""science" vs "belief"" will eventually become one i can think of many of examples where that is not true. i agree if a "belief" concerns the natural world and can be shown to have natural processes and the evidence can be demonstrated and examined critically then it can be accepted as scientific. but many "beliefs" fail that hurdle terribly but remain a belief. or these beliefs fail so miserably that they disappear and are thrown in the wastebasket along with "snake oil" where they belong

  41. dufas_duck

    The police can arrest the wrong person and prove that he is guilty in court. Consensus of the court can convict an innocent person based on that police evidence and then the court passes judgement on an innocent person. The case can be peer reviewed by another court and the conviction upheld. 25 years later, new evidence comes to light that proves Bob is innocent and a new consensus is formed and Bob is released from prison. Joe is still dead and the real killer is still not known. Science works in the same way......

    But, even with evidence that exonerates Bob, there will be many that still believe Bob is the killer...

  42. dufas_duck

    Carbon credits doesn't do anything except make money for someone. If it truly worked, there could be any type credits that one could imagine.

    An example might be a high crime city could purchase 'crime credits' from a low crime city who then reports, subtracting purchased credits, that they have successfully brought their crime rate down while, in reality, the crime rate remains the same.

    Poverty credits could eliminate poverty...and just think of what health credits could do...

    This is like moving a five dollar bill from your left pocket to your right pocket and saying you have more money.....

  43. robertallen1

    Your comparison is invalid. Science changes with the influx of new facts. Capital punishment, once carried out, doesn't.

  44. David Ewer

    Good in parts, although I would have liked to see a distinction made between science and technology. The scientific method is all good but all technology isn't good.

  45. dufas_duck

    I only took one polio vaccine..the sugar cube loaded with the vaccine. They came to our school and passed it out to all the students. I and ten other kids got sick. Upset stomach, fever, vomiting. We were off school for several weeks. Tests confirmed that the small group of students that I belonged to was allergic to the vaccine so, we did not get the shots. This is one of the problems, especially with medical science and many health practitioners [ and politicians ] that all people are the same and therefore, every generalized 'fix' will cure whatever is the 'problem' is at any given time.

  46. robertallen1

    Anecdotes are not evidence. Didn't you watch the documentary.

  47. Epicurus

    clearly you dont understand placebo either.

  48. dufas_duck

    This would depend on what the 'knowledge' was...

    I was born and raised in the backwoods, high on the side of a mountain. We were monetarily poor but had a wealth of knowledge. Visitors would come through our area, higher educated, somewhat arrogant and snobbish. disliking the idea that they had to rub shoulders with us 'country hicks. [A term that I heard more times than I would like to remember..], they would look down their noses at us and make snide innuendos as to our intelligence and heritage.

    Most of these educated people were young college grads working towards a post graduate degree in environmentalism. Many were working on their thesis and came to do their own 'hands on' data gathering. Anything we would tell them was dismissed. They would take off into the woods on their own without asking anyone about the terrain or telling anyone where they were going. They had their books to tell them how to handle anything or everything.....

    In the spirit of brevity, I will list some of the problems that occurred.

    1.. In about 30 percent of the groups that went into the deep woods, we had to send search parties after they had been gone for too long.

    2.. Many were dehydrated and had lost most of their gear mostly due to panic or be chased by a wild animal.

    3.. Not all bubbling brooks or small crystal creek contain potable water. Many times, there is a dead animal or fecal matter up stream. Animals are not as polite as humans and will, many times, leave their kill where they found it and an animal is not above defecating where they drink. Pure, natural water is many times not so pure. We have littered many visitors down the mountain to a hospital for gastro intestinal problems and high fever

    4.. Camping in a clearing by a stream is a bad idea. Animals, big and small, come to the clearings to drink. They prefer the clearing so they can keep watch over the surrounding area while they drink. Small animals watch for predators, large animals watch for prey. If one camps there, they become the prey. Bears, cougars, lynx, even racoons can be dangerous, especially if there is food stored improperly.

    5.. A few got adventuresome and tried climbing various steep embankments, cliffs, big trees, etc, etc, and either couldn't get back down or fell back down.

    A small percentage actually thanked us for helping them out of their situation. Many were embarrassed and spoke little. Some were still arrogant and miffed that they had to be rescued by the 'low life hicks' ..

    Like I stated earlier, it depends on what the knowledge is..

    Educated people usually look down their noses at a mechanic or a plumber until their car breaks down in the middle of nowhere or their toilet backs up....

  49. robertallen1

    Don't forget that it's just as often the opposite. However, I can appreciate a good auto mechanic, a plumber and any other tradesman.

  50. dufas_duck

    So they released a dead man after 25 years????

  51. dufas_duck

    I guess I'll have to get in contact with all those grads and inform them that robertallen1 says they are nothing but anecdotes. Or...maybe we should have just left the scientist grads to fend for themselves without interrupting their quest for knowledge..

    Gravity is just an anecdote based on a story about an apple and hundreds of people and things falling towards a large body...

  52. robertallen1

    Your comparison still doesn't hold.

  53. robertallen1

    First of all, the sampling is too small to make any valid determination. Secondly, as stated several times, anecdotes have no weight in science--I guess you didn't take the documentary seriously.

    Gravity has nothing to do with statistics. Therefore, your analogy is patently invalid and I can't believe you're serious.

  54. dufas_duck

    But only when you need one, other than then ????

  55. robertallen1

    I still appreciate a good tradesman.

  56. §??? l30!

    I dont see canada on the list of countries with dumb kids nor germany or england. (this list is on first video at exactly 5mins) i passed the three questions i didnt know the tilt was just over 23 degrees i knew it was 23.5 from that stupid 23 movie cuz 2+3 =5 ooooooo spooky ( that part made me laugh in the theater ) btw if u haven't watched 23 don't save ur self the 2hrs and go wash ur car or something

  57. dufas_duck

    Bob is still innocent even if the state killed him and the real killer is loose....

  58. robertallen1

    Irrelevant. The comparison is still invalid.

  59. Jack1952

    Everything you say could be true except for one thing. Bob is not innocent. My example states that Bob did kill Joe. Any evidence proving his innocence would be inaccurate.

    My story was meant to point out the difference between what is real and what we think is real. Bob commits murder but we are unable to uncover the information to prove his guilt but he is still guilty. It doesn't matter that the rest of us are unsure.

    The laws of science are the same. They are what they are. We know this to be true because we use the laws of science everyday in our technological world. Our gadgets work because the laws of science says they must work if all the materials are in place and in proper working order. If they do not work, we don't assume the laws of science no longer apply. We find out what is wrong, repair it, and know that the laws of science will continue to do what they must and our gadget will resume its operation. It cannot do otherwise. When we investigate the things in science that we do not know we tend to make conclusions based on what we do know. The object of our study operates consistently in the same way but we don't really know why. Erroneous assumptions do not change how it operates. Only our assumptions change as we find out more about it until hopefully we come to a full understanding of the mechanisms that make it work.

  60. Vlatko


    Yes, depends what "knowledge" is. Those student grads obviously didn't posses "your" practical knowledge (or skills should I say), but they could have acquired it within a course of 2-3 days. On the other hand, they can argue that you can't do the same with "their" knowledge. It would take much longer to learn calculus from scratch, if possible at all.

    I don't want to underestimate anyone, but every knowledge fits in certain situations, and not every knowledge weighs the same.

  61. Jack1952

    Science itself doesn't change. It is our understanding of science that changes with the influx of new facts.

    Didn't mean to nitpick because I know that you have a grasp of this concept. The person that you are responding to apparently doesn't and I could see this person agreeing with you for the wrong reasons.

  62. Innovation Blues

    I think all these comments show that we all don't need to start 'Learning to Think Critically' as everyone appears to be quite critical.

    I think the general population is very critical as shown here in the comments. Not often correct with their views though :/

    The videos message is not well created but it creates discussion focused on disagreeing with each other and his video rather than actually promoting science. So I think the video failed, as he delivered a very poor message to the masses that is not productive to his cause.

    It could have been done so much better :(

    Maybe bad PR is why Science has always struggled to gain more visibility.

  63. Jack1952

    The study of genetics proves that there are no two people exactly alike. There is no question. Therefore, it is to be expected that some would have an adverse reaction to the vaccine. However, it would seem that the vaccine did work. It has been completely eliminated in the western world. They were not going to abandon the vaccine because a small minority may become ill from it. How do you explain to the subsequent millions who contract the disease that they have the way to eliminate the disease but they refuse to implement the program because dufas_duck might become ill. They did it because it was the only option open to them. It may even be possible that the vaccine prevented your contracting polio in an indirect manner. The vaccine virtually eliminated any chance that you would be exposed to the disease. No exposure...no disease.

    The human body is incredibly complex and everyone is different. We do not know enough to tailor make cures to a specific individual. We can only go by what works for the greater population and hope for the best. It would be ridiculous to stop helping the many because we are unable to help the few.

  64. Jack1952

    No he is not innocent. The one fact of my story that remains fixed is that Bob killed Joe. You are writing your own story to fit your own facts. You can't change what has happened. Bob killed Joe.

  65. Jack1952

    These college grads made decisions based on the facts that they knew. They found out the hard way that they did not have all the facts. I'm sure they have revised some of their ideas when confronted by this new information. Most of what you have related is not a mystery and they could have learned about it in their college library.

    Your anecdotes prove that when you don't have all the information you cannot arrive at an accurate conclusion. The information was available to them from many sources. They chose to ignore it. In a way you are arguing against yourself.

  66. lakhotason

    Back up a step or two here dufas. A consensus in an American court convicts no one. It must be all or nothing. It must be a unanimous decision.

  67. lakhotason

    College grads are young. The young always find out the hard way.

  68. John Jacquard

    what happens if you apply reason to our socioeconomic system?

  69. John Jacquard

    how about a critical thinking analysis of the artificial man made psychological mind game known as currency and the values it promotes?

  70. lakhotason

    Well I certainly know that a critical analysis would not begin with any statement such as you just made. I mean it is clear you wish to argue the "artificial man made (sic) mind game known as currency....etc." rather than discuss a critical analysis of anything.

  71. dewflirt

    When my mum started chemo she was given an option to take part in a drug trial, using an old drug in a new way. She wasn't sure so I did some asking around and was told that people doing this sort of thing would often weather the storm better than those that opt out. Their thinking was that it had something to do with the fact that they get more care and attention and are monitored more closely. It makes them feel better. Some doctors here (uk) will also prescribe acupuncture and other alternative therapies for much the same reason. I pushed her into it, positive thinking and a little extra care must be a good thing? Who knows, it was a shot :) Now I just hope the data is useful ;)
    Edit. Sorry! Should also say that we never were told whether or not she got the drug, they treated her as if she did.

  72. Jack1952

    Those who study medicine are not always motivated by greed alone. That is a blanket assessment and is unfair. If I develop a cure for MS that has been proven, without a doubt, to work, does it matter if I might eventually profit from my discovery. It is one thing to suspect that someone may be a charlatan but it is another to throw out all medical research due to the possibility that charlatans exist.

    People in western, industrialized countries live longer and healthier than ever before. This is due to better diets and life styles but also better excess to health care. Heart surgery was once a major operation and most people who had undergone heart surgery would live under the impression that their days were numbered and that the surgery just postponed the inevitable. Today, patients are in and out of surgery in just a few days and back to work within weeks. They expect a long and productive future. Unheard of forty years ago. This is due to medical research. I am sure that there are those who became rich due to these procedures but do we really want to go back forty years because some one made a lot of money. You are welcome to go back. I'm staying.

  73. TonyS

    One of my favorite quotes on this subject comes from Dorothy Sayers: "If we teach our children how to read without teaching them how to think, then we leave them at the mercy of the printed word." Her essay, Lost Tools of Learning, is a great read, but I can't say that she'd be a believer of evolution today.

  74. TonyS

    And not to get too political or anything, but what about the overwhelming amount of 9/11 that disproves the official report? It seems, even for scientists, nationalist folk lore still wins over.

  75. Phil Pilgrim99

    If you'd said anecdotes are not PROOF, I'd agree with you.
    Testimonial is not proof either, but it is evidence, I suggest you consult a dictionary.

  76. Phil Pilgrim99

    You're being a bit controversial here Vlatko Look up "evidence" in a dictionary & you'll find something like: includes everything that is used to support, determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion.

    Your original question to me was about "evidence" & in your reply here you're talking about scientific method - you've substituted "evidence" with "scientific method" - they are not the same.

    Evidence is not proof & has more sources than just results from application of scientific method. However I do agree that properly applied scientific method is, on the whole, the best quality evidence.

  77. over the edge

    Phil Pilgrim99
    1. do you think that chiropractic care is scientific?
    2. do think a testimonial given by someone you don't know on the internet is evidence that can be used to reach an informed conclusion?
    3. do you think someone who claims to be able to cure a wide variety of conditions that if not treated properly could result in permanent damage or death should have to provide a testable and observable methodology that can be repeated by a qualified skeptic?

  78. Phil Pilgrim99

    "over the edge"
    I'll gladly answer these 3 questions but how about first responding to my reply (below) to Vlatko, yourself, Malchick & theodd1.

  79. Vlatko

    @Phil Pilgrim99,

    The dictionary gives you the broad dentition of the word. For example "theory" is not the same when used in our every day life (the dictionary) and when used in scientific context.

    Scientific evidence is expected to be empirical and properly documented in accordance with scientific method.

  80. Phil Pilgrim99

    well, would you be kind enough to enlighten me ?

  81. Trevis Robotie

    chemicals will never cure anything organic.......go natural and the acids in our bodies are neutralized and reversed to an alkaline state.all,i repeat,all the so called irreversible medical conditions have been reversed over and over again by mere application of plants and herbs.the guy in the video is only about bigpharma propaganda,selling us more death!open your eyes folks,you can cure yourself more efficiently and permanently with natural and not artificial medicine.

  82. Trevis Robotie

    your mum's cancer will dry out in weeks without chemo and it will cost you less all the way......checkout dr Sebi on utube

  83. dewflirt

    Actually it all went a bit mushy after we buried her, but now she's a cherry tree so it's ok ;)

  84. Trevis Robotie

    good thinking,bro,the FDA sued dr Sebi for curing aids with herbs (and lost).they can't patent the herbs and so to them it means no money....

  85. Trevis Robotie

    haven't you guys noticed that,with the science based medicine,the side effects often(almost always)surpass the cure(s)?one is never sure of the outcome....you go in with a problem and you come out with five!

  86. Epicurus

    Notice when a product that doesn't work is being marketed they ALWAYS resort to a bunch of random testimonials? like the Q-ring bracelet, or any other as seen on tv magic cure.

    Anecdotal evidence can have varying degrees of formality. For instance, in medicine, published anecdotal evidence is called a case report, which is a more formalized type of evidence subjected to peer review. Although such evidence is not seen as conclusive, it is sometimes regarded as an invitation to more rigorous scientific study of the phenomenon in question. For instance, one study found that 35 of 47 anecdotal reports of side effects were later sustained as "clearly correct."
    Anecdotal evidence is considered the least certain type of scientific information. Researchers may use anecdotal evidence for suggesting new hypotheses, but never as validating evidence.

  87. Epicurus

    you didnt ask him anything. there isnt a single question mark in your entire last post to vlatko.

  88. Epicurus

    stop giving people advice that could ultimately KILL their loved one....please. have some respect. you are not a doctor and not trained in medicine or biology.

  89. Epicurus

    Dr Sebi is a kook and a snake oil salesmen. enjoy giving your money to that charlatan.

    how about instead you send that money to me and i will send you some mint leaves that cure aids? or how about you buy a bridge off me im selling in new york......?

    gullibility will leave you bankrupt and possibly dead.

  90. Trevis Robotie

    i garantee you that they are always motivated by greed.....if you know from the word go,that organic cures the organic(Socrates,the father of modern medicine,did not use chemicals to cure),why then would you insist on hybrid,acid based drugs???they can't brand nature as theirs,therefore the way to make megabucks is cook up poisons in the lab.they know their method is wrong and has always been but,they just don't care about people

  91. dewflirt

    But often the side effect of no treatment is death, I'd rather leave hospital with five problems than none at all.... :)

  92. robertallen1

    And just what are your credentials?

  93. robertallen1

    In other words, her mother's cancer will be cured through quackery. I think you should be careful about giving out medical advice.

  94. robertallen1

    Dr. Sebi was a quack like yourself--and don't try to promote your ignorance by attempting to question the motives of the medical industry.

  95. robertallen1

    Unfortunately Dewflirt's mother has already passed away, but that doesn't negate your proscription. I think something needs to be placed in the comment policy about giving unqualified medical advice.

  96. robertallen1

    Let me put it this way, you give one more piece of medical advice such as you gave to Dewflirt and I will report the matter to the moderators. This is clearly unawarranted and dangerous.

  97. oneness

    8mins in I would consider, critically, is this a case of fundamentalist sciencism, unfairly dragging pseudoscience into realms it never came from? Psuedoscience is not a fundamentalist movement. Ideas, thoughts & consciousness do not exist in physical reality. Science requires 3D verification. Quantum theory nips @ the heels of 4D but remains a theory & therefore only an idea. It seems a little immature to show a picture of a yogi while selling the negative connotations of pseudo science. Here you have a master of critical thinking being tagged a stereotype with such an amazing lack of critic the mind boggles. All of a sudden it becomes just another mindless blubber of pro capitalist propaganda we have all become so bored of.

    20 something mins in.....I bet this guy went to Yale. I don't hear critical thinking. I hear more recital of studies & data & very profound proclamations. I really don't see how this is anything good for science or critical thinking. Likely sponsored by Pfizer.

    Thanks for watching.

  98. dewflirt

    I think I should offer a little advice in return, YouTube is not the place to go for medical help. Also I live in England, health care here is free so no doctor is fleecing anyone.

  99. Kateye70

    I think there's a 'baby in the bathwater' conversation going on here. Either all natural or all scientific. How about a more holistic approach as in--use everything.

    The scientific method has caused *some* (not all, *some* in case anyone isn't paying attention to qualifiers!) doctors to focus only on one aspect of a patient instead of the entire person as a whole. That attitude was more prevalent, as was the "I'm your doctor, don't question anything I've told you" attitude, back 40 or 50 years ago. Times have changed, medical professionals' attitudes have changed.

    I would agree there are certain natural curatives not being utilized because they are not patentable and therefore not profitable, but as pointed out, modern medicine has done a great deal for our longevity and well-being.

    The problem isn't the scientific method or modern pharmacology. It's recognizing that a. humans are made up of various systems that integrate into one whole being. You can't pull a part out like you can in a machine and expect the rest of the system to not respond to the invasion.

    Likewise, b. patients have to take responsibility for themselves. We have to be aware of our own systems and not just take anything and everything because someone wrote a prescription. Do your research and then listen to your own body. No one knows it as well as you!

  100. memoiandi

    Just for sh*ts and giggles, I looked up "Dr." Sebi. Here's what is said on his own website:

    "Dr. Sebi never attended school, not even kindergarten."

    "Doctor?"....... ummmmmm no.

    Can we now ignore the troll and move on?

  101. oneness

    The ability to enable people to make their own videos & share them with the world was always going have it moments.

    Thanks for watching.

  102. CapnCanard

    Vladtko... only one very persistent problem: the placebo effect does have as good results as many approved drugs and treatments, and those treatments are regarded as the causation of the healing. This is really problematic for medical science but the placebo effect is completely dismissed. My point is that the discipline of Medical Science is completely apathetic to the placebo effect only using placebos to make a show or as a control. I just want to know WHY is it that placebos sometimes show real efficacy? That is the study I'd like to see but I doubt that will ever happen in the very narrow field of medical science. Just my two cents ; )

  103. Achems_Razor

    I concur with others that say it is not up to you to give unqualified medical advice to anyone, any more such advice will be removed. Govern yourself accordingly!

  104. memoiandi


  105. Jack1952

    Your reply was perfect. It couldn't be any clearer than that.

  106. Vlatko


    That is not the problem. Placebo is also shown to work half of the time on a large diverse sample group, not because a few crackpots say so.

    The origin of the argument was if chiropractic works or not. He is offering his testimony (anecdote) as evidence, while the counter argument is that that is not an evidence, at least not in scientific sense.

  107. Achems_Razor

    What is fundamentalist (sic)sciencism?
    Where do thoughts and consciousness exist in?
    Quantum theory is only an idea?

    You made your claims so now the burden of proof lays on you, show us your stuff!

  108. robertallen1

    Are you trying to saying that there is anything respectable in pseudoscience? Also, quantum theory is far more than just an idea.

    It's amazing how those of your ilk try to refute just about everything they don't like by terming it capitalist propaganda. I see nothing wrong with constructive capitalism just as I see nothing wrong with the number of poor considerably outdistancing the number of rich.

  109. robertallen1

    Speaking of critical thinking, what do you think of Francisco Ayala?

  110. Acwdownsouth

    This is propaganda of the worst sort. Right now I'm squinting at the fine print on the product insert from my local pharmacy's annual flu vaccine. 'Mercury [Thimerosal], 25 mg.'

    To quote the narator:

    'Thimerosal is no longer used in the US'

    The film is Big Pharma disinfo from start to finish.

  111. Jack1952

    The father of modern medicine is Hippocrates, not Socrates. Although Dr. William Osler has also been given that title. The misinformed should not be giving out medical advice.

    Organic is always a good thing, huh? Well, poison ivy is organic, too.

    You seem to think that curing complex diseases is a simple matter of eating the right plants. Why is it, then, that the life spans of the citizens of the western world has risen consistently since the application of the scientific method has been invoked? We live longer and healthier.

    Death is not the ultimate failure of modern medicine. We are all on that inexorable rendezvous with our demise. Modern medicine attempts to postpone it and tries to make that life healthier and more enjoyable. Failure, on an individual basis, is not an indicator of failure on the larger scale and the ugly spectre of greed by some does not negate the fact that we live longer and healthier. The life span issue is the one thing that people like you never address.

  112. robertallen1

    Why don't you do some independent research BEFORE making your claim?

  113. Jack1952

    "Natural curatives are not patentable therefore not profitable" I buy tomatoes all the time and they're not patented. Someone is making a profit from their sales. The idea that something must be patented to make a profit just isn't true and is a lame argument used by the anti pharma types. At first glance it appears to have an irrefutable logic to it but upon deeper inspection that logic does not hold water.

    The rest of your comment is good common sense.

  114. Trevis Robotie

    I am really,really sorry about your mum.Truly.The guys here are mad at me for advicing you-well,I guess they're right but,I never meant harm.Only wanted to help.They say Sebi is a quack (like myself-I'm an artist),if Sebi was a quack (never got a formal educational)the world definitely needs quacks like him.The big pharmaceutical firms that kills 35,000 people per year with aspirin alone aren't quacks???Sebi cured all the patients the science based medics condemned to death and,up till now it's yet to be reported he lost a patient......just take your time to investigate.Nice day,dewflirt.

  115. Achems_Razor

    All I know about Ayala, is he is a biologist and a ID opponent. Will read up on him.

  116. robertallen1

    It's an insult that anyone so ignorant as to call Socrates the father of modern medicine should be posting on this site. (Incidentally, speaking of Socrates, hemlock is organic.) Whether you know it or not, medicine has progressed considerably since Ancient Greece. Your promotion of Dr. Sebi shows that you haven't.

  117. robertallen1

    Look at all the money Bayer made out of aspirin or Crest out of toothpaste. It's terrible, isn't it?

  118. Trevis Robotie

    robertallen,it's obvious I got the names mixed
    up-Hippocrates I intended.....one thing for sure,I am ignorant and I am learning.Hope you got all the answers

  119. sp

    Information can be bent to support any argument. No real critical thinking here. Experience and dealing with real disease issues is where the rubber meets the road...

  120. Trevis Robotie

    ...and as for Sebi,I only appreciate people who save lifes.If you care,look up his curriculum before you put him down

  121. Trevis Robotie

    yeah ya ryt!amnesia

  122. Trevis Robotie

    xactly what i thought

  123. robertallen1

    Let's look at your Dr. Sebi (Alfredo Bowman). This is the man who states that viruses and mircroorganisms don't cause disease--it's all done by mucous. This is the man who denies that AIDS is caused by the HIV virus and avers that the malady can be cured by simple doses of herbs--in fact, as far as he is concerned, veganism cures everything. To anyone desiring more knowledge of this quack, I recommend "A Skeptical Examnination of Sebi's Alleged Cure for Aids," by Gary C. Booker, M.D. which is on the internet.

    You should be ashamed of yourself for posting.

  124. robertallen1

    There's an article on him in Wikipedia. Yesterday, I viewed the debate between him and William Lane Craig which I didn't like for reasons I'll explain to you after you have reviewed it.

  125. robertallen1

    So you got the names "missed up." Obviously you still have oceans to learn and I suggest you roll up your sleeves and jump into the fray BEFORE you post again.

  126. robertallen1

    Yes, I've read his curriculum and except for his statements and those of his "patients," there is no scientific evidence that he ever saved anyone's life. The man is a con artist and no more and your endorsement of him is simply an endorsement of your own wilful ignorance.

  127. robertallen1

    Don't think. You're not good at it.

  128. Jack1952

    There are those who have an allergy to aspirin. It is tragic that a small minority die from this allergy. People also have allergies to peanuts, seafood, strawberries, milk, wheat...etc. I, for some unknown reason, get severe diarrhea when I drink coffee. Should all these products be taken off the market? If one of the patients of your Dr. Sebi dies of aids, despite taking his cure, do you think that he should be sanctioned, maybe even imprisoned? I'm sure he doesn't have a one hundred percent success rate. Your logic is flawed.

    Now, address the longer life span issue. I've asked you once and you've avoided it.

  129. dewflirt

    From his website,
    "Dr. Sebis bio mineral packages are used to cleanse the body of mucus, toxins, acids and bacteria. In result ridding the body of any disease. Along with a cleanse his products nourish , revitalize, and rejuvenate the body" 
    Badly written and complete nonsense. Even detox diets do nothing for you but at least they do little harm. This on the other hand is back to the bad old days of humorism and will cause big death type harm!
    'YET to be reported that he has lost a patient'. There is no proven cure for AIDS. If people are using mineral packs to treat themselves, they are going to die.
    Sebis IS a quack. Artists can't be quacks, you are not a quack :) You're making guesses based on YouTube videos, that makes you gullible and dangerous to your own health and that of others. You can't pass doctor exams by watching YouTube!
    33,000 die from aspirin each year. According to WHO, about 388,000 die from drowning each year, worldwide. Swimming has obvious health benefits but in light of that info I suggest that everyone stays well away from water. Wonder if that includes dry drowning?
    No further investigation necessary, if it walks like a duck its a quack.
    No worries about the dead mum thing, you weren't to know, just be mindful that some people are a little more sensitive than I am, I'm also more forgiving than some. You're not in my trouble ok, watch again and listen this time!! Enjoy your day Trevis ;)

  130. Trevis Robotie

    knew u'd hang on to dat...just giveen u somfin to byt on

  131. Trevis Robotie


  132. robertallen1

    Is that the best you can do?

  133. Trevis Robotie

    ROB,u got ur x.....left u somfin else

  134. Trevis Robotie

    u bet....your belt never left u

  135. Trevis Robotie

    won't think,sure u'll do it for me-luv u

  136. Trevis Robotie

    no evidence ? why do think he won the FDA case??ignorance is so kind !wake up Rob

  137. lakhotason

    And I surely do not want to drink something that will cleanse my body of bacteria. I'd be dead within hours.

  138. dewflirt

    It's ok lak, you can have a yakult and make it all better! :)

  139. robertallen1

    Obviously you have a problem writing in standard English.

  140. dewflirt

    He probably has a mineral pack that cures death anyway ;)

  141. robertallen1

    The case was not about whether his "cure" was effective but rather about whether he could produce "witnesses." This distortion makes you a cheat as well as an ignoramus.

  142. oQ

    All three moderators are on the conversation.

  143. over the edge

    Trevis Robotie
    why when i go to his site he seems more interested in selling me something instead of explaining things to me? also does he provide any "proof" that has the before and after conditions of these people documented and verified by an independent party? why not expose his healing abilities to a skeptic like James Randi and get the million dollars and uuse that money to "help" more people? finally i will use a quote from you that expresses it better then i could (from Derren Brown miracles for sale) "Derren should investigate a nigerian healer(amongst others)called TB Joshua.To me he seems authentic but, these muthaf....s are so good,they'd fool almost anybody.Money is involved as usual"

  144. over the edge

    Phil Pilgrim99
    that seems fair. i only have one problem. you stated " how about first responding to my reply (below) to Vlatko, yourself, Malchick & theodd1." my post was in response to your post(s). i see no questions asked of me but if you wish to ask a question i will answer if i can. but seeing as this was our first interaction on this topic why answer my questions with anything other than an answer?

  145. dufas_duck

    I agree..What you state is part of my point, the part you missed is that only the grads knowledge count, not the 'anecdotal' knowledge of those that have lived there all their lives..

  146. dufas_duck

    Disagree. You stated that all evidence found pointed towards Bob being guilty, that equals assumption of guilt. You yourself argue that new information can change the understanding of a given subject. Joe is still dead but the evidence, although originally pointing towards Bob can change and move towards a clearer understanding of any truths to be found, else why seek the truth in anything, allow any assumption to be the truth...

  147. Achems_Razor

    Ha, Ha, how true, there are 10 times more types of bacteria in the body than there are body cells.

  148. dufas_duck

    I wouldn't suggest that we stop helping the general population. That would be insane. It is possible that the one vaccine helped but one was supposed to take a full battery for it to be effective,[according to the knowledge at that time].. My father got polio in 1948, several years before I took the vaccine. I was given the vaccine in 1955 and since the vaccine was still in the trial stage, I don't know if it was a placebo or not. Now, I am going to make an assumption, [awful me]. Since I and the others became ill after taking the vaccine, I assume that it was the real thing as I doubt a placebo would produce the ill effects displayed by myself and the others. My dad, although he spent a couple of years in an iron lung, became gradually better. He lived for years with the right side of his body paralyzed, but this appeared to be diminishing. With intensive therapy and a determination on his part, he could walk and talk again. By the mid 60s, the only visible clue that he had ever had polio was that his right arm was noticeably smaller than his left.

    The point of the post was that although science seeks the truth, many times, it is not an all encompassing truth that is realized just as the police detective that has evidence that a certain person has committed a crime and later finds that the evidence was wrong or planted, [which has happened but again, that would be anecdotal...]

  149. dufas_duck

    Yep, hung jury... Most DAs will try again to nail anyone they believe to be guilty. Would you suggest that all convictions are correct, that no innocent person ever gets imprisoned or gets a death sentence??

  150. Kateye70

    You forgot to mention that women don't die in childbirth so often, and their babies tend to survive birth and childhood more frequently.

  151. Ipat_00

    think and think more

  152. lakhotason

    Unfortunately more innocent persons today than ever end up in prison. The trend in the last 20 years or so is for the state to file multiple charges for a single crime. For the simple crime of allegedly shoplifting a $500 watch I could be charged with three or four crimes. Shoplifting, grand theft, theft by taking, conspiracy to commit theft are probable crimes I could be charged with. If I'm convicted these charges could land me 20 years in prison. If I plead guilty to shoplifting I get maybe two years. A lot of innocent people plead guilty because it's too much of a gamble to go to trial. This is why there are comparatively few criminal trials these days and a lot of innocent people in prison.

  153. robertallen1

    Just how do you know that there are a lot of innocent people in prison? Do you have some statistics or hard evidence. Also, plea bargaining does not imply guilt or innocence.

  154. over the edge

    thinking more isn't the answer. not to be picky but we have to learn to think better. contemplating on the wrong idea or process for a long time or more just leads to a lot of wasted time

  155. lakhotason

    Google "number of innocent persons in prison" If you wish to debate what you will find there, debate it with the authors of those studies, not me. Don't have time for it.

    I don't know what you mean by a plea agreement not implying guilt or innocence. I do know that in a plea agreement you must plead guilty. That's why it's called a plea agreement.

  156. robertallen1

    You assert. You provide the source, whether you have time or not.

    And no plea bargaining is just that, a deal. It is not an indication of innocence or guilt.

  157. dufas_duck

    It actually goes further than that. The police, often assume that they are correct when arresting someone. I have personal experience in such a situation. Although many will state that this is nothing more than anecdotal, it did produce very real feeling and painful results. To make the episode short. I was driving the same make, color and model of a vehicle that was used in an armed robbery. The police pulled me over, under several weapons pointing at me, I followed their directions. Once that I was laying face down on the ground with arms spread out, the police came rushing towards me. Instead of just cuffing and transporting me to a police station, the first policeman that came up drop kicked me in the side of my head. The others joined in and gave me a good working over. I was lucky that it was not as bad as some have received. After they finished enjoying their fun, they took me to the police station and began interrogating me. I quickly found out telling a policeman that you are innocent is a waste of time and will likely get another punch in the head thrown at you. I was there for about two hours when someone came in and announced that the 'real' criminal had been caught doing another crime. There then started a discussion between the cops as to what they were going to charge me with. An officer walked in and ordered them to release me. The cops told the officer that they have to charge me with at least something. The officer said not to worry, he would take care of things.

    After being off work for a couple of weeks, my family and friends pushed me to file a complaint. I ended up talking to one of the very policemen that had beat me and he stated that there was no record that the police had even talked to me, but, I could file an assault complaint against person or persons unknown and he would do his best to find them....

    This real life situation could be an analogy for Joe is still dead, Bob is innocent and the real killer is still out there.....

  158. robertallen1

    Now, I'd like to hear the other side of the story.

  159. dufas_duck

    The college grads didn't want to accept any other information much like people who think they know everything and everyone else is an id**t.

  160. lakhotason

    I'm not going to play your silly crap.

  161. robertallen1

    Then obviously providing proof of your assertion is silly crap. It's obvious that you've learned nothing from the documentary. So I wonder why you even bothered to watch it.

  162. Kateye70

    From Wiki: "A plea bargain...is an agreement in a criminal case between the prosecutor and defendant whereby the defendant agrees to plead guilty to a particular charge in return for some concession from the prosecutor."

    The whole wiki article is actually very interesting, and goes into detail on the controversies surrounding plea bargaining, beginning: "Plea bargaining is criticized, particularly outside the United States, on the grounds that its close relationship with rewards, threats and coercion potentially endangers the correct legal outcome."

  163. dufas_duck

    The study of gravity began with anecdotal evidence, IE, the apple falling... People falling from heights is also anecdotal 'evidence' that something is occurring. Unless you are saying that someone falling off a roof is not the result of any cause and effect.

  164. robertallen1

    Right and we have horrible examples of it in the recent tragedies in Arizona and Colorado. Your research proves my point. It has nothing to go with guilt or innocence or if you prefer, proving guilt or innocence.

  165. robertallen1

    No, it began with firsthand experience, not anecdotal evidence. Won't wash.

  166. dufas_duck

    Yep. that's what most people say. At this point, I'm supposed to say that the police never do anything wrong and I am some sort of delusional character for even suggesting that an officer of the law would do anything wrong.....

  167. Kateye70

    Robert, what part of "the defendant agrees to plead guilty" isn't clear?

    Guilt is assumed. The defendant will have a criminal record, and will be on record as having committed the crime they are charged with.

    The defendant doesn't get to plead "really innocent but agreed to accept being charged as guilty so I don't get slapped with even worse charges."

  168. robertallen1

    I guess the documentary had no effect on you. That's not what I said or even implied. I'm just not going to take your story at face value.

  169. robertallen1

    You've said it twice. He AGREES to plead guilty. Guilt or innocence is not determined. As a matter of fact, plea bargaining is an attempt to get out of having to prove the charge.

  170. Kateye70

    Plea bargaining is the defendant accepting guilt. Saying anything else is sophistry.

    There is no implied possible innocence, and anyone who does a background check will not question the criminal conviction.

  171. lakhotason

    And before sentence is passed on you according to your guilty plea the judge will declare the court as having found you guilty.

  172. robertallen1

    Still acceptance is not proof. Doing a background check is irrelevant.

  173. Kateye70

    Who said it had anything to do with proof? If you confess to a crime, you done it.

    Edit: Criminal history showing on a background check is the consequence, not the evidence.

  174. robertallen1

    I'm trying my best to explain it. A plea bargain is no more than a circumvention of the obligation to prove. That's my initial point. Perhaps imply was an unfortunate choice of words. I probably should have stated that it avoids having to deal with establishing innocence or guilt.

  175. CapnCanard

    My question was only concerning placebo not the discussion you had already had. My apologies. But I am interested in WHY a placebo works(I'd bet there are no docs on that!!). The problem is that it has never been seriously investigated and if it is then it is immediately castigated because it doesn't fit the current paradigm of belief. Just sayin'

  176. lakhotason

    Oh my. The digression, the digression.

  177. over the edge

    i am by no means an expert on this subject so take this for what it is worth but a lot of times there are chemicals released when an emotion is felt. so a person could "feel" better because endorphins are released and if they believe they are being treated along with the reassurance and attention a person might get along with the placebo could lower stress leading to beneficial results. a doc i enjoyed that touches on these ideas is "Derren Brown: Miracles for Sale" right here at TDF

  178. Vlatko


    Placebo is an extremely interesting phenomenon and I don't have a clue why it works. But it is proven to work. The effects are visible not only with giving placebo drugs, but sometimes only with placebo suggestions.

    For example let say I monitor two groups of people who do the exact same job every day. I tell to the first group that they're getting a good workout at their job, and to the second group I tell nothing.

    The first group just by "thinking" that they exercise every day, will show a significant decrease in weight, blood pressure and body fat after four weeks. The second group will show zero changes.

    Probably the mind/brain can "convince" the body that it is in a "certain" situation. According to that, the body adjusts the production and levels of enzymes, peptides, hormones, etc. which leads to the desired situation.

  179. Kateye70

    What you said was that a plea bargain is not an indication of guilt or innocence. The way it 'avoids having to establish guilt or innocence' is by having the defendant declare their own guilt.

    As lakhotason said, the court proclaims the defendant's guilt prior to passing sentence. There is nothing neutral about it.

  180. robertallen1

    It's nothing more than a deal. The defendant has a choice. He can either accept it or the prosecution must PROVE his guilt. That's it. Well, there's one more option. The prosecution could drop the case, but in this situation, that doesn't often happen.

  181. Kateye70

    You should read the 'controversy' part of the wiki article.

    If you were innocent, and faced with a prosecutor who could possibly get you sentenced to 20 years or more on multiple counts if you argue in court, or spend 2 years in jail but be sure to get out if you plead guilty to something you didn't actually do, which would you do?

    Roll the dice or take the certainty? You might be brave enough to stay the course--or have the money for a damned good legal defense--but very few of us are that wealthy or that brave, or that lucky.

    The fact remains--you are now guilty as charged, based on your own evidence against yourself. The prosecutor no longer has to prove anything, since you just did it for him.

  182. dufas_duck

    That works for the police since they are the other side of the story and they won't even tell me what their story is.... When an organization controls the data and can manipulate it or hide it as they see fit, it leaves innocent people hanging. But taking the police at face value also accomplishes the same thing...

    Wasn't a few Churches doing the same thing pertaining something about child molesting...

  183. dufas_duck

    That's funny. Someone tells you they saw someone fall off a roof and you tell them that it is not viable. Sort of like calling 911 and reporting that you saw someone fall and the operator saying they will have to wait until the person that fell calls in otherwise, the report is just anecdotal.....

  184. robertallen1

    Now you're bringing in something else.

    And no, you're not guilty based on your own evidence against yourself, you are considered guilty because you have pled guilty. I wrote, "The defendant has a choice. He can either accept it [the deal] [in street parlance, "cop a plea'] or the prosecution must PROVE his guilt."

    One of the things I don't like about plea bargaining is that in many cases, the defendant is pleading guilty to a lesser charge of which the defendant is probably innocent to avoid being tried for a greater charge of which the defendant may be guilty.

    As far as the prosecution bringing in multiple charges (which is how this whole thing started off), that is simply vigorous and good lawyering and I see no problem with it.

  185. robertallen1

    Where did I say that I was taking the police at face value. So far, all I have is your narrative which I have no reason to believe or disbelieve, but which I refuse to take at face value.

  186. robertallen1

    You've obviously missed the point of the section of the documentary dealing with anecdotal evidence. Calling the police to report a crime in progress or a man down is not the same as stating that Medicine Z cured me of cancer.

  187. over the edge

    no no no. more on topic if i call 911 and say someone fell and when they show up there is no person who fell and no physical evidence that supports the claim i am charged with making a false claim. so if you cannot back up a claim with actual evidence you are making a false claim

  188. robertallen1

    Not quite. If I report a prowler and by the time the police come out, the prowler has gone, I cannot support my claim with evidence, but in all probability it is not a false claim. Perhaps the operative way of putting it is making a knowingly false claim. One way or the other, dufas_duck is attempting to equate an observation with anecdotal evidence as the term is used in the documentary which from his previous posts, I doubt if he takes seriously.

  189. dufas_duck

    What you say is true but it does not prove that anecdotal evidence is not true......

  190. dufas_duck

    As I have stated ...the police will not give their version, in fact, they deny anything at all happened. So, logically, I must be a liar and the police that deny everything thus confirming that nothing happened are representing the truth... Anecdotal evidence once again proved useless except to people that have gone through it...

  191. Phil Pilgrim99

    That's exactly right. but I do have a question for you: how come you've not replied to my question to you ? (about placebo)

  192. over the edge

    there are too many claims that can possibly be true critical thinking skills allow us to focus on what is probably true.

  193. robertallen1

    I never said one way or the other. It's just the weakest form.

  194. robertallen1

    That's what you say and it may or may not be true. I really don't know or profess to know, but there's no reason I should take your assertions at face value which is what you want.

    P.S. This is not anecdotal evidence.

  195. J.S.

    I think critical thinking is not found in this documentary but rather the opposite! I would caution, use critical thinking when watching this.

  196. robertallen1

    Unless you can point to specific instances, your comment is nonsensical.

  197. Adam Young

    the rational science minded are mostly hypocrites. they say people of faith are closed minded yet believers are continually in a state of being torn between the rational and the heart. they battle with doubt daily yet alot of the academics i've meet are so arrogant in the position that they believe what they know is truth and real with no doubt it would seem. start a conversation on the paranormal, they seem totally determined to trample all over it and shut it down as quickly as possible as if they couldn't bare the thought of one of their peers finding them engaged in a topic so childish. how is that a good representation of the pioneering spirit that science often claims itself to be ?
    or i guess some so called intellectuals are all about giving lectures, receiving awards and enjoying the hiked up view from the shoulders of their peers. such individuals are not the true scientist yet this would seem to be a near majority. i of course could be wrong unlike yourself.

  198. Trevis Robotie

    Hi Over,yes it's true I wrote those words about TB....notwithstanding,TB is helping a lot of folks (in every sense).If he's ripping them off,I don't know but,one thing for sure is,he is giving a lot back.I am not religious or anything like that,rather I'd tell you that I can't stand religions because of their history up till present.I am as skeptical as all of you,but then I know when to step on my brakes-as they say here in Italy:piedi di piombo-lead om my feet when I am face to face with dubiuos situations.I don't dive in as you might think....I made a mistake by giving medical advice to dewflirt and I have apologized for that.Now,I'll tell you why I mentioned Sebi to dewflirt(but pls don't take this again for publicity).I had seasonal allergy for over 20yrs,22 to be exact.From march till september,every year,running nose,itchy eyes,olfactics gone etc etc.Prior to this,I have used practically every product in the standard pharmacies to no avail.It even got worse after I tried a vaccine years back.I got in touch with Sebi's office in California.I honestly can't tell you I know who replied me but,in the e-mail,they wanted to know what my usual diet was.....I was later told to eliminate dairy foods and animal flesh and that,if there's no improvement then I'd be adviced as to what herbs to purchase.Call it placebo or what you will but,after seven days,in mid april,I started smelling everything!I just couldn't believe it.In less than 2 weeks,my allergy went down drastically,I only had to spit some phlegm at dawn and for the rest of the day I was ok!Over,I never had the time to buy anything.Nothing!Now,pls tell robertallen that I am not here to fight but to learn.You guys are extremely intelligent and I appreciate that a lot,but but but you need not use your intelligence like a sword.Yes,this all virtual,but then we're human beings behind the scene.Peace and LOVE

  199. Kateye70

    Anecdotally, when I moved to New Jersey 30+ years ago I developed terrible seasonal allergies. Last year I took myself off every pharmaceutical drug except ibuprofen as needed, and this year I haven't had any seasonal allergy symptoms other than a sneeze now and then.

    I didn't make any dietary changes, either. I think what happens is that after being in an environment for a certain length of time our bodies adapt to it. I think the problem is alleviating the symptoms in the first place. =)

  200. robertallen1

    You know nothing about science. Your post is no more than a paean to ignorance.

  201. robertallen1

    You obviously learned nothing from the documentary and probably didn't want to. Your anecdote means next to nothing, for all we have is your word without evidence.

    In short, you're promoting a quack and that makes you a quack.

  202. Trevis Robotie

    I tested positive for graminacee and parietaria (even now)these plants are everywhere here,but I've been ok for the past 2years.I can't explain this.I haven't moved at all....

  203. robertallen1

    And you didn't need to see a quack. Just a slight modification. Sometimes our bodies adapt. Look at those who live in rarified climates such as the Himalayas--but sometimes they don't and the results can be fatal, such as with a number of those who visit the inhabitants of rarified climates.

  204. robertallen1

    Well, Dr. Sebi can't either.

  205. Kateye70

    You said you moved to your current location over 20 years ago. It took me at least that long to get past the worst of my seasonal allergies. I grew up the tropics. I went back after an absence of over 30 years, and even though everything was in bloom, I had no problems.

    Our immune systems are complex, I think, and learn over time. You could also have a food allergy; my niece has a son with a compromised immune system and had to take him off of just about everything until she determined what he could safely eat.

    I read one interesting study that posited the rise in seasonal allergies in the west has more to do with removing the more aggressive pests our immune systems were developed to fight (such as worms) and now they are hypersensitive just to have something to do! =)

    I think the lesson here is that our medical advancements have to be utilized with caution and not taken for granted. Benefits always come with their downsides, and one size does not fit all (life rule-of-thumb!).

  206. robertallen1

    You're right, especially about our immune systems (which creationists idiotically believe are too complex not to have a designer and which evolution explains them perfectly well), but the quackery of Dr. Sebi and those like him is not the answer.

    Indeed, every lining has a silver cloud. Sickle cell anemia, as pointed out in the documentary. Another: the prolongation of life versus population explosion.

  207. oneness

    8mins in I would consider, critically, is this a case of fundamentalist sciencism, unfairly dragging pseudoscience into realms it never came from? Psuedoscience is not a fundamentalist movement. Ideas, thoughts & consciousness do not exist in physical reality. Science requires 3D verification. Quantum theory nips @ the heels of 4D but remains a theory & therefore only an idea. It seems a little immature to show a picture of a yogi while selling the negative connotations of pseudo science. Here you have a master of critical thinking being tagged a stereotype with such an amazing lack of critic the mind boggles. All of a sudden it becomes just another mindless blubber of pro capitalist propaganda we have all become so bored of.

    20 something mins in.....I bet this guy went to Yale. I don't hear critical thinking. I hear more recital of studies & data & very profound proclamations. I really don't see how this is anything good for science or critical thinking. Likely sponsored by Pfizer.

    Thanks for watching.

  208. Trevis Robotie

    Rob,Sebi or not,I would not expect the big guys of world DRUGS to promote ppl like Sebi,no matter what results or certificates they have to back up their claims.It's simply bad business for them.If you come up with an alternative medicine,you get branded 'charlatan' and that's it.they don't want to know if you're really good or not and I understand that.This is BUSINESS-If you cook something in the lab that follows every indoctrination of the schools of modern medicine,they give you a Nobel even if your stuff kills ppl,just because they know where you're coming from and they can relate to you.You probably won't admit it but this is the sad truth

  209. robertallen1

    There is no such thing as alternate medicine--it's all medicine and none of it has anything to do with Dr. Sebi or, for that matter, you.

    The sad truth is not that there are doctors and researchers who spend their lives trying to make positive contributions (so what if the pharmaceutical companies benefit from it), but that there are people like you and Dr. Sebi who spread their ignorance and quackery (yes, that's all it is despite what you ramble on about in your ignorant way) to those they find gullible enough to toss their money away on it.

    resent it when someone as ignorant as you've shown yourself to be impugns those with impeccable credentials and transmogrifies Dr. Sebi's lack of them into a screed against his perceived capitalistic evils of the medical profession and the pharmaceutical industry in particular. A word about the greed of the pharmaceutical companies, certain sera, such as those for small pox and diptheria (diseases which are now rare in this country thanks to mainstream medicine and no thanks to Dr. Sebi and quacks like him), are dispensed free of charge when needed.

    By placing Dr. Sebi above all science, you are no better than a religee and just as despicable.

  210. over the edge

    Trevis Robotie
    you stated ",I would not expect the big guys of world DRUGS to promote ppl like Sebi" i agree totally. but i can list many advancements that weren't promoted by those who would not benefit from it. here are my concerns. science doesn't play nice even to it's own so if you want to be included you better be prepared to defend yourself.Einstein couldn't get a job as a scientist and his ideas challenged one of the giants of science but he was right and he could prove it that is all that matters.sebi has not given any evidence that would be considered scientific so he is dismissed. the owners of these drug companies are portrayed as immoral and only concerned with their own best interests. maybe they are. many of these owners and their families die or suffer from diseases that this treatment claims to cure. do you really believe that these owners would die in order to keep this secret?

  211. Jack1952

    Its my story. The very first thing I said was "Bob kills Joe". Bob is guilty but the police don't know it because Bob covered his tracks very well. At first they suspect someone else but eventually they do find evidence that points to Bob...the actual murderer. You miss the whole point of my example and then you change the facts to fit your own views. No wonder you're having problems with the concept of critical thinking. If you don't like what you see you change the facts.

  212. Jack1952

    I'm still waiting for your response to why western or first world countries have a longer life span.

  213. Phil Pilgrim99

    I suggest this documentary to renamed: "Propaganda Dressed As Critical Thought"

  214. over the edge

    Phil Pilgrim99
    what i find most telling is as you previously stated you watched until the part on chiropractic care. others are upset about other alternative medicines being brought up. still others will object to the religious section and so on. the common thread is that when a belief that is already held is opposed people get defensive but they do not oppose the other subjects that aren't held as true. that is not how a person approaches a subject critically. you have to suspend what you already believe and move forward on the facts or lack of that are being presented. you have yet to provide proof that your belief is scientific or backed by hard facts. the presenter even stated that their might be benefits to chiropractic care in conjunction with established medical treatment. i suspect that you heard something you don't agree with so you closed your mind to what was being said. we all do that to differing degrees. but docs such as this one can give a person the tools to make better judgements on claims. even if you do not agree with everything contained within

  215. Joël Cuerrier

    "Fewer people worldwide knows who won the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 2009, than know who won Dancing With The Stars"

    This is a statement you hear in this documentary. All of this is very subjective, and at any given time, more people knew about pop culture advertised everywhere than they did about who won the Nobel Prize of Medicine that get a 10 seconds clip in the evening news. Maybe more if your country won it. And here's a surprising fact about ignorant Americans, they won most Nobel prizes in every categories except the symbolic one of the Peace Prize and for Literature (where France lead).

    Either way, more people in the 1930's knew what the latest Greta Garbo movie was, more than they did whoever won whatever in Sweden.

    If you have a scientific mind, as you claim, you really don't need to think so hard to see how fallacious such an argument is. There's a lot of this around. We are, on average, more knowledgeable about science today than we were 50 years ago.

    But, at the same time, one should not dismiss the political sphere science occupy now. That is to say, in regard to climate change, the shakedown of the entire Liberal-Democratic capitalist system somehow got to be destroyed, for some Nanny-State authoritarian monster. All in the name of science.

    Science have grown very powerful where religion and nationalism have went dim. People don't believe in God & Country, let's give them something else to feed on. Often, even people who misunderstand science, quote science as their main counterpoint in regard to anything and everything.

    So there is a fanatical element to science, well represented by the likes of Richard Dawkins. There's a scientific everything now, nothing is left off for some to the realm of doubt and philosophy, which is in itself dangerous. Where more than one positions can be correct, depending on circumstances.

    He talk a good deal about hard science, but it is all the soft science that are driving everyone crazy.

  216. Epicurus

    you said it couldnt be placebo because it wasnt placebo for those other forms of medicine.

    however placebo only works when you THINK strongly that the medication will be effective. you most likely already had a bias towards one particular type of medication and a negative bias to another.

    placebo will not occur in someone completely unaware.

  217. Epicurus

    what is the constant percentage that placebo works?


    The United Kingdom Parliamentary Committee on Science and Technology has stated that: "...prescribing placebos... usually relies on some degree of patient deception" and "prescribing pure placebos is bad medicine. Their effect is unreliable and unpredictable and cannot form the sole basis of any treatment on the NHS."

    that seems like a good reason not to rely on placebo as medication.

  218. Phil Pilgrim99

    I've now watched the whole documentary, and it's even clearer to me that this documentary is not about critical thinking - as it pretends to be. There are just too many unsubstantiated claims, leaps in logic, and references to unnamed sources for me to take it seriously as an exercise in critical thinking.
    For example: 1. around 3 min 50 seconds in it's claimed that those people who gave incorrect answers in the questionnaire see science and technology as "strange and frightening". There's no basis (evidence presented) for this conclusion at all - they could all be just oblivious to their ignorance.

    2. around 6 mins in, it's stated we now have 2 societies - those that value science & technology, & those that do not , & shortly after that implies that none of those that actually do value science & technology hold beliefs that might be classified as pseudoscience, & vice versa. This is black & white simplistic rubbish.
    3. around 7 min in, it quotes an "unscientific" British newspaper survey - and you want me to believe this is critical thinking - what a joke !. Then there are quite a few other references to "informal" surveys - these sources are not referenced & therefore impossible to check - unverifiable !

    There are dozens of such examples of this sort of unscientific rubbish in this documentary.

    Then we have the likes of some of you here declaring that those who express skepticism are closed minded & "defensive", & you demand proof ".. your belief is scientific or backed by hard facts ..". This is demanding a quality of argument not evident in the documentary, or in the commentary of those such as yourself. This approach is just point scoring & game playing.

    For the record, I do have a vested interest here - that is that good science & genuine rationality be promoted because they are indispensable if our species is to survive. As such, this documentary is counterproductive because it gets science & rationality a bad name.

    And for the record, I'm not religious, have no vested interests in "alternative medicines", think the BCA's actions of false advertising are disgusting & that it's appalling that that journalist went to jail for exposing them.

  219. robertallen1

    At least science has a lot more to offer than religion ever did.

  220. Phil Pilgrim99

    Yes I did have a pre-treatment bias, and it was against believing that a chiropractor would help.

    At first I'd assumed my medical doctor & physiotherapist would successfully treat my problem but when they didn't I consulted a chiropractor.

    I'd never been to a chiropractor before & thought of them as a dubious fringe element - I wasn't at all confident about the prospects of a solution to problem - but I was in serious pain & desperate, so I followed a friends recommendation & visited his chiropractor - he fixed the problems.

    If I have another skeletal problem, first I'll consult my medical doctor, (& which ever medical specialist they might refer me) & if that isn't fruitful I'll then consult my chiropractor.

    Now Epicurus, you say to me ".. you most likely already had a bias towards one particular type of medication and a negative bias to another", so which way did you assume my biases to be ?.

  221. Phil Pilgrim99

    How dare you say that those ".. guys are extremely intelligent".
    Where is the scientific evidence for this ?. Where are the results of the peer reviewed clinical trials that prove this ?

    Everybody here knows that if you don't provide solid scientific evidence to support those sorts of claims then you are clearly a nonsense-peddling trouble maker.

    Don't even think about trying to quote normal, everyday type evidence to support your claim because, at best it'll be anecdotal - which is not science & doesn't count.

    And why am I entitled to correct you in this manner ? Because I'm a science graduate of course, you goose !

    And, my friend, while there are also other statements you've made that I do not agree with either, I do agree with the overall thrust of your argument.

  222. Epicurus

    based on your story the biased leaned towards the chiropractor before you went to him.

    for some reason or another traditional medicine failed you (albeit i dont know how many doctors you consulted, what your problem was, or what the doctors prescribed) so you were desperate, you had a friend you trusted you said someone helped him, you believed him enough to go. given those two conditions im sure placebo could play into it, as well as possibly time coincidence. but like i said i dont know what the problem was.

    PS i wanted to add, i accept that your experience happened and that would be more than enough for anyone to be suspicious about the success of it. so i dont blame you for that at all. and everything else you said in your post seems absolutely rational.

  223. Phil Pilgrim99

    Well if you're sure that it was placebo & "time coincidence", then that must be correct.

    As far as I'm concerned though, your comments demonstrate poor comprehension, flawed reasoning & arrorgance. Worse still, your clear implication is that I'm dishonest &/or an imbecile.

    And no, I'm not going to take the time to substantiate those claims because any other reader with average intelligence, & the ability to think clearly will recognise the truth if they read all our posts.

  224. tired

    gone are the days when you could go to the comments to get some views on the doc. now it's just full of 'better than thous' bickering!

  225. Phil Pilgrim99

    In my opinion this documentary is not about critical thinking. There are just too many unsubstantiated claims, leaps in logic, and references to unnamed sources for me to take it seriously as an exercise in critical thought.
    For example:

    1. around 3 min 50 seconds in it's claimed that those people who gave incorrect answers in the questionnaire see science and technology as "strange and frightening". There's no basis (evidence presented) for this conclusion at all - they could all be just oblivious to their ignorance.

    2. around 6 mins in, it's stated we now have 2 societies - those that value science & technology, & those that do not , & shortly after that implies that none of those that actually do value science & technology hold beliefs that might be classified as pseudoscience, & vice versa. This is too black & white.

    3. around 7 min in, it quotes an "unscientific" British newspaper survey. There are quite a few other references to "informal" surveys - these sources are not referenced & therefore impossible to check - unverifiable !

    For the record, I do have a vested interest here - that is that good science & genuine rationality be promoted because they are indispensable if our species is to survive. As such I don't think this documentary is helpful.

    And for the record, I'm not religious, have no vested interests in "alternative medicines", think the BCA's actions of false advertising are disgusting & that it's appalling that that journalist went to jail for exposing them.

  226. Jack1952

    A vaccine is not a placebo. A placebo does not eradicate a disease from western culture is less that a generation. No placebo is that good.

  227. robertallen1

    Your post is no more than a defense of ignorance.

  228. robertallen1

    "And no, I'm not going to take the time to substantiate these claims because any other reader with average intelligence, & the ability to think clearly will recognise the truth if they read all our posts."

    In other words, you expect your claims to be taken at face value, the mark of a fraud and trickster.

  229. Phil Pilgrim99

    Unless you can point to specific instances, your comment is nonsensical.

  230. Vlatko

    @Phil Pilgrim99,

    What is a good science... according to you? Chiropractic?

    You had a positive experience with it and now you think there is a world wide plot to suppress it. Typical conspirative reasoning.

    Can't you understand that there is not enough evidence for it, to be considered legit.

    It can't be replicated and demonstrated on a large diverse group. Simple enough. I don't understand why are you still arguing about.

    And for the documentary, don't you RECOGNIZE that it is an amateur doc. It is a random guy on YouTube who made it. Despite the few mistakes in it, the general message is OK.

  231. robertallen1

    First of all, you mischaracterize Epicurus' response. He did not state that it was definitely placebo and time coincidence, but offered these only as possible explanations. Your distortion of Epicurus' response together with the umbrage taken by you at being ask to substantiate your claims, coupled with your appeal to the "reader with average intelligence, & the ability to think clearly . . . " render your account suspect.

  232. robertallen1

    Open up a Los Angeles telephone directory and see how many chiropractors are listed. So much for worldwide conspiracy.

  233. lakhotason

    You can have both biases. There is also a nocebo (I Harm) effect.

  234. Kateye70

    I think Phil Pilgrim99 was taking umbrage at every single statement made on the comments section being challenged, sometimes for the most specious of reasons, and the poster's intelligence questioned.

    Maybe its time for all the regular posters to think before posting and not be quite so quick to be confrontational.

    Ask a probing question or two before drawing negative conclusions.

    Stop and think whether the perceived error in a post is truly due to egregious stupidity--or whether it could possibly be something more benign, such as faulty typing, not being a native English speaker, an awkward attempt to explain a concept the writer is struggling to express for themselves, or any other reason.

    And no, just because someone is struggling to express themselves, it doesn't mean they shouldn't post. How else will they learn?

    Then people wouldn't be quite so quick to feel defensive and reply accordingly. Respect is a two-way street.

  235. dewflirt

    Just got back from the summer fete, two chiropractors, a palm reader, a clairvoyant, a tarot lady and an alternative therapy tent selling potions. All had queues of waiting women but the men seemed to prefer the bone crunchers. If there hadn't been queues I'd not have thought much of it, silly fun at the fete.

  236. lakhotason

    You bring to mind several interesting differences between male and female in this area. Although both sexes have the same rate of response to placebo, females have a higher nocebo response. And in the area of placebo's opposite, imaginary or hysterical illness, it is predominantly females.

  237. dewflirt

    I wonder why that is? I also heard somewhere that women are more sensible about their health, more likely to try painkillers and advice from a chemist before visiting a doctor, whereas men will ignore their problems until they get really bad, or think a headache is a brain tumour and dash to A and E only to be given paracetamol ;)

  238. over the edge

    while i agree with everything you stated my first post to him was what i thought were probing questions. i repeated these questions and then gave up when i reached the conclusion (right or wrong) that they were not going to be answered. i even pointed out that the author of this doc stated that chiropractic care could be useful when used in conjunction with conventional care (an olive branch if you will). as for the other "regulars" they are capable of answering for themselves

  239. robertallen1

    I have no respect for anyone who takes umbrage at being asked to provide proof of a factual assertion, such as iakhotason and Phil Pilgrim99. I take umbrage at anyone who mischaracterizes or distorts such as Phil Pilgrim 99 and Trevis Robotie.

    If a person cannot express himself clearly, he should not expect others to fathom what his thoughts. If he is misunderstood, in most cases, it's his own fault.

    I see no problem in being confrontational and when a person makes stu*id or ignorant statements (and I don't mean venial errors) or in questioning his intelligence.

  240. robertallen1

    I was thinking of you last night and reread your undeservedly controversial essay. You really have something there--God the klutz or omniklutz.

  241. robertallen1

    Where are you getting your information?

  242. lakhotason

    I've thought about why this nocebo response is gender biased towards females. My suspect would be conditioning. If I were a researcher I would first try to rule out conditioning as a cause.

    The reason I suspect conditioning is because until very recently new drugs were tested mostly on males. The reasoning was what's good for the gander is good for the goose (and good for the gosling). We know that's not true now but think of all the bad reactions women were having to "male" drugs. It should follow that when given placebo females have the same conditioned responses that they have to "male" drugs.

    What I'm really curious about is what if a test group were to "accidentally" learn they were to recieve placebo and were given the drug instead. I understand a placebo effect can occur even if it is known you are taking a placebo, but would the opposite also be true?
    Can knowing you are taking a "placebo" negate the efficacy of the drug.

  243. Phil Pilgrim99

    Yes the general message is OK, and, there is so much "good science" I couldn't list it all here, but some examples: in health - treatment of polio, smallpox & such, surgery, psychology - a huge number of achievements, then modern transport & communications, the Hubble & Mars, plus across every area of society.

    At the same time I haven't forgotten about the (now decades old, & since withdrawn) scientific assurances we were given 70 years ago that ddt was completely safe & that X-rays were harmless, or that that the most brilliant & eminent of scientists in his era, Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society & the United Kingdom’s National Academy of Science, declared that heavier than air flying machines were an impossiblity, only to be proved wrong a few years later by a couple of bicycle makers.

    As for chiropractic, it's not even science according to the definition of science - but it worked for me & has for millions of others. I don't want to be an advertisement for the industry (as I said in a recent post - I consult my medical practitioner first) but accusations that I'm ignorant about of placebo, that my behavior is suspicious, my claims have "..the mark of a fraud & trickster", that my account is invalid because I haven't presented "solid scientific evidence", or for that matter that I'm susceptible to "conspirative" reasoning, are just amusing & a little frustrating. If you choose to believe I'm lying, or I must have a psychiatric or neurotic disorder, or that my experience can be explained as a spontaneous remission, or was placebo, then that's your choice.

    Are there many charlatans in that industry ? yes !, how many people suffer injury & pain due to these criminals who also steal their money ? thousands, maybe millions, & it's heartening to see that the BCA is being outed. Are there very many charlatans in mainstream medicine ? yes. How many lethally incompetent medical practitioners are there ? way too many (I nearly died due to one). Do I condemn & dismiss all medical practitioners ? No. Some chiropractors are charlatans, do I condemn all of them ? No ... for reasons which I now hope are obvious.

  244. dewflirt

    Women having bad reactions to male drugs, I need an example please? I could experiment on my kids, give one a placebo and not tell her, another a placebo and tell her it's real and the other the real thing and let slip its a placebo? I knew I'd had them for a reason! Do you think it's true that women have a higher pain threshold? May be that we are just martyrs ;)

  245. lakhotason

    It's generally available on the web. Somethings are hard to root out and on some I just cannot read the paper because it requires a fee. I have to rely on the abstract.

  246. robertallen1

    That's the problem with Iakhotason. He makes statistical assertions and takes umbrage when asked to back them up. To be perfectly clear, not all statements need back up. For example, if I say that most biologists the world over support evolution, I don't need to provide back up. By if I state that most Catholics prefer Ajax Cleanser while most Protestants prefer Comet, then I need to show on what this conclusion is based. These are two different types of assertions.

  247. lakhotason

    I don't have a specific drug name off the top of my head but I think if you google something to the effect "gender bias in drug testing" a whole lot of research pops up.

  248. robertallen1

    Just stating that it's generally available on the web does not provide the source behind your assertion. An abstract is fine, provided you cite it. Another way is to begin with verbiage such as "According to . . . " Providing your source at the end of your statement is also fine. One way or the other, if you make a statistical statement, you must provide the source. See my last post to Dewflirt.

  249. robertallen1

    Again, you expect her to confirm your statement, in other words do your homework for you.

  250. dewflirt

    Thankyou both :)

  251. lakhotason

    Look RobertAllen, I am having a conversation with Dewflirt, not submitting a goda***d research paper for peer review. You can either ignore the conversation, do you own research or stfu. I won"t participate in you silly sh*t.

  252. robertallen1

    If you can't back up your statistical assertions, you shouldn't post them in the first place. Your resort to obscenity says a lot about you. Every time you make a statistical assertion without some type of back up (i.e., citation of source), I'm going to call you on it. Remember, this is a public forum.

  253. dewflirt

    I'm guessing that if you need a general idea of a drug you might test it on a group of people as similar to each other as possible. But then surely you would then move on to other or mixed groups. The snippet I just read says that often the elderly or women of reproductive age are excluded which seems silly if they will eventually take the drug. On the other hand, how specific is too specific ? You could end up refine the test groups to groups of one :) If they really want random groups they should throw names in a hat :)

  254. Kateye70

    Tired said (below) "gone are the days when you could go to the comments to get some views on the doc. now it's just full of 'better than thous' bickering!"

    All I'm pointing out is that confrontation is not always the best form of communication. Lacing what might otherwise be useful information with demeaning insults doesn't exactly leave the other person willing to hear anything one has to say, regardless of its validity.

    If the point of documentaries is to present information, and the reason people watch them is to learn, then discouraging them from asking even poorly-phrased questions or poorly-worded thoughts and speculations is discouraging the very process this site upholds.

    I'm only suggesting we all take the time to re-read our posts before clicking the send button, and edit out the personal comments that inevitably creep in.

  255. lakhotason

    The reproductive age exclusion is understandable I suppose. When you are testing a drug one of the unknowns is side effects. Don't want to damage a woman's reproductive system. Apparently not as much importance is given to a man's.

  256. dewflirt

    Sorry Mr Allen, posted in the wrong place, very tired today! :)

  257. dewflirt

    Ha ha! Maybe there's a touch of male doctor ego involved? We women have fragile fertility, you men are super potent!! ;)

  258. robertallen1

    Once again, it's not up to the reader to try to determine what a person is "really" thinking or asking or what his motivation is for thinking or asking it. If a person can't express yourself clearly (and I don't mean like a college professor), he shouldn't post until he can.

    As for demeaning insults, someone who posts patent nonsense (and I don't mean venial nonsense) and fallacious statements (and I don't mean venially fallacious statements) which he tries to pass of as fact deserves what he gets.

  259. Achems_Razor

    The comments are still holding their own, nobody is really threatening, swearing and such, but my delete finger is at the ready. lol

  260. robertallen1

    Once again, I really enjoy your god the klutz.

  261. robertallen1

    What about the veiled obscenities in Iakhotason's reply to my latest post to him. It's a shame to encounter someone with such a profound contempt for backing up his statistical claims.

  262. dewflirt

    Well, if men are made in his image I have all men as evidence of it ;)

  263. lakhotason

    Well thank you. We like to think so.

  264. robertallen1

    What I would really like to hear are your comments about God the klutz (omniklutz) as they relate to prehistoric times.

  265. Achems_Razor

    Well, not going to take sides. I will take that just as man to man talking, but anymore will be deleting.

  266. Phil Pilgrim99

    No umbrage was taken - it's an issue of time, I'm a very slow typist & had already articulated my position as well as I could to Epicurus who was obviously convinced that he knew better.

    I think if you read all the posts to & from Epicurus - which is what robtallen1 was responding to with the umbrage description - you will see he/she clearly contradicts himself/herself about placebo, and he/she refused to believe my stated biases, insisting that they were the opposite, ie that he/she didn't believe me - which implies he thinks I'm dishonest, or that I don't know my own mind.

    If your reference to " .. the most specious of reasons " has anything to do with my "Unless you can point to specific instances, your comment is nonsensical" quote, I must confess to plagiarizing robtallen1 who's used those exact same words on a number of occasions to other posters in similar circumstances. I was being combative.

    I think you give very good advice here. This is my first time here, I'd like to make a positive contribution & hopefully learn as well. However I am weary of defending myself against incorrect assertions such as that I questioned the posters intelligence, that my statements carry " .. the mark of a fraud & trickster" and so on. I'm not offended, just mildly amused, frustrated, out of time & won't be back.

  267. Phil Pilgrim99

    Thanks, I'll look it up

  268. robertallen1

    Let's get this straight. I never made any comments on the placebo effect, only on your expectation of being taken at face value and your strawman corroboration by what you term "the average reader." From your post, it is obvious that you've had to defend yourself before--or is this the first time?

  269. dewflirt

    Trial by fire :) Everyone gets a little hot here from time to time! I make great walloping assertions all the time, think they just got used to me in the end, class clown! ;) Think of yourself as the new kid in school, everyone wants size you up! Stay, and stay amused ;)

  270. Phil Pilgrim99

    Thank you. I was getting a bit hot.

    If I had more time & could type faster, a couple of the schoolyard bullies - whose measure I believe I have - would cop a flogging.

  271. robertallen1

    For those interested, here's a quote from the Wikipedia article on Simon Singh (whose book on Fermat's Last Theorem is wonderful) as to the outcome of the lawsuit filed by the BCA.

    "In 2008, Singh was unsuccessfully sued for libel by the British Chiropractic Association for criticising their [sic] activities in a column in The Guardian. A 'furious backlash' to the lawsuit resulted in the filing of formal complaints of false advertising against more than 500 individual chiropractors within one 24-hour period, with one national chiropractic organisation ordering its members to take down their websites, and Nature Magazine noting that the case had gathered wide support for Singh, as well as promoting calls for the reform of English libel laws. On 1 April 2010, Simon Singh won his court appeal for the right to reply on the defence of fair comment. On 15 April 2010, the BCA officially withdrew the lawsuit ending the case."

    Draw your own conclusions.

  272. Phil Pilgrim99

    It is true that you never made any comments on the placebo effect, but the subject of your post mentioning umbrage was in response to my post to epicurus regarding placebo.

    My "expectation of being taken at face value is obviously overly ambitious, but please take into account two mitigating factors - one, that I know I never bullshit, and two, that my capacity to tolerate it from those that do, is way below average.

    Now Rob, you misquote me again: "the average reader.". I said
    ".. any other reader with average intelligence, & the ability to think clearly". And if you would like me to respond to the "strawman" point (I know what the strawman strategy is) please elaborate because I do not know what you're talking about.

    Lastly Rob, those feelings you've mentioned you get about suspicious people and statements, strawmen, and concerns about tricksters & fraudsters, how often do you experience these symptoms ?, woops er not symptoms, I mean - events ?

  273. robertallen1

    Please note that in one of my earlier posts, I quoted you exactly--and your strawman is " . . . any other reader with average intelligence . . . " In other words, you've created a fiction (or perhaps a nebula) which you've employed to disparage those who refuse to take your anecdote anent your experience with chiropractric at face value. As a matter of fact, considering that I don't know you, I don't even take your self-assessment at face value,

  274. lakhotason

    Jeez, that was easy wasn't it?

  275. KsDevil

    It takes time, effort, and practise to think critically. According to the ads on TV, none of us has the time to take from our busy schedules to make this effort.
    That is why "others" have taken on the emormous task to process everything, then hand us easy, simple choices that we can use.
    We can rest our worried minds that there are others doing the hard critical thinking for us so we can all go back to a comfortable sleep.

  276. lakhotason

    Now that some calm has returned I'll give you my reply.

    You didn't ask me to back up my assertions, you asked me WHERE I got my information and I answered your question.

  277. robertallen1

    You're right, the general message is fine, but unfortunately in a number of instances, the narrator doesn't practice what he preaches.

    In one instance, he demonstrates the weakness of quote mining and quoting from authority and yet at the end of the section on evolution, quotes from Dr. Ayala (and I don't mean a factual quote).

    In another, as Phil Pilgrim99 states, near the beginning of the documentary he asks three questions on science and then characterizes those who either don't know the answers or get them wrong as being afraid of science when it could just as soon be that they are indifferent or simply never thought of the matter before. This flies in the face of his caveat against correlation without cause.

    These are only two examples. I could provide others.

  278. dufas_duck

    I know a vaccine is not a placebo. The group that I was included in were given placebos. I don't know if I was given a placebo or not. Since I had an allergic reaction just as some others did, I suspect it was the real thing. Since the vaccine added a slight sour taste to the sugar cubes, a sour flavoring was added to the placebos to camouflage them. Names were not used, only numbers and the team of doctors are the only people that had a name/number reference. I could have been allergic to the flavoring agent they used on the placebos. I was never told one way or the other...

  279. robertallen1

    Don't try to get out of it. Backing up your assertions is the same as stating where you got your information. For one, you made statements about the increasing number of innocent people in jail (a matter of statistics) and became angry when asked for corroborating evidence, thus abrogating your responsibility to provide the source of your statistical assertions. Simply telling the reader to look it up on the internet does not meet this obligation. However, not all assertions require a source. For example, if I state that differentiation involves finding the tangent of a curve while integration involves finding the area under one, I don't need to name a source, as it is not a statistical assertion. If I state that evolution is accepted by most biologists worldwide, I don't need to give a source. However, if I state that the removal of religion from public schools has resulted in an increase in teenage pregnancies, a statistical assertion, then I do. If I state that Darwin was an atheist , then I do. I hope you appreciate the difference.

  280. lakhotason

    "Once again, it's not up to the reader to determine what a person is "really" thinking or asking....."

    - RobertAllen

    You asked a question and I answered it.

  281. robertallen1

    Unresponsive which is hardly surprising.

  282. lakhotason

    Thought it to be a pretty good response.

  283. Kateye70

    I was pointing out the tone of the conversation, not the content.

  284. Achems_Razor

    I know exactly what you are pointing out. What do you like me to do, delete all? I did the best under the circumstances. Kept everything down to a dull roar.

  285. Kateye70

    My comments were directed to the old kids on the block, not the new =)

    "And no, just because someone is struggling to express themselves, it doesn't mean they shouldn't post. How else will they learn?" I stand by that remark. I hope to benefit from others' tolerance, also, at times.

    I come here to learn; I've followed topics I might never have, otherwise, and heard opinions I hadn't considered before. This is a valuable site and the community here is valuable, as well. As Dewflirt said, please stay.

  286. Kateye70

    I remember reading somewhere, years ago, (no, can't produce a reference =P ) which said that women of reproductive age were left out of pharmaceutical trials because fluctuating hormones were too hard to track (read: cost too much money to test for since they required extra effort to track the possible effects)...although that didn't stop them from recommending such drugs to women based on data collected from men, and finding out later that women reacted differently than the test subjects because they were, well, women with fluctuating hormones.

  287. dewflirt

    Bloody hormones! Mixed blessing ;)

  288. lakhotason

    That certainly sounds reasonable. Women are not supposed to touch even the inside of the box that Rogaine comes in due to some type of hormonal/reproductive problem.

  289. Jack1952

    Another excellent example of the benefits of modern medicine. It is also another example of subjects that the anti modern medicine people refuse to discuss. I have on many occasions try to engage them in discussions about longer life spans and declining child mortality rates but have been met with silence. I expect this trend to continue.

  290. Joël Cuerrier

    Not quite yet, religion is responsible for the whole civilization we live in and most of its art and philosophy. The recent spur of "science" have convinced people to stop having babies, and as a result, the West is commiting a self-genocide. That's the heritage of modern science. You'll tell me about overpopulation again, that's what science done for 40 years. Result, population decline everywhere in the West, met by mass-immigration from Muslim countries. That's the world science have given us. The future is Islam, a religion much worst than Christianity.

  291. blaxparx13

    I agree with most of what this fellow says except for his diatribe on GMO food. He's totally wrong on this one.

  292. lakhotason

    Yes medicine has given us longer life spans and declining child mortality rates yet our rate of population growth continues to fall and that growth includes immigration both legal and illegal. Take away immigration and the rate of growth doesn't even reach the replacement level and hasn't since 1972! This leads one to suspect that maybe medicine has also taken away the incentive to hedge our bets in that we now do not need a large number of children to assure our genes are passed forward.

  293. robertallen1

    You obviously need a history lesson. By confining them to its narrow purview, religion has done it's best to stifle art and philosophy through threats and censorship. It speaks well for modernity that artists and philosophers are no longer subject to it's grip and the sooner religion loses it altogether, the better.

    Despite what you think, overpopulation in proportion to the amount of resources (sustainability) is a major problem. I suggest that you look up the most recent statistics from the World Health Organization, not that you will, the Wikipedia article on the subject, again not that you will or any reputable scientific, non-religious source, not that you will. The last thing a religee will do is read up on a topic he only thinks he knows about.

    The list of the benefits we've derived from science is innumerable and unquestionable. The benefits from religion are non-existent.

    Another ignorant post.

  294. robertallen1

    Another statistical claim. From where are you getting this information?

  295. lakhotason

    I will answer your question without trying to determine what you're really asking (which is also another of your RobertAllen rules). The place WHERE I got my information is the US Census Bureau.

  296. robertallen1

    Thank you. You could have stated that in the first place.

  297. lakhotason

    Didn't think it was necessary since it has been a known and universally accepted fact for the last 40 years by demographers. That falls under the RobertAllen "I don't need to give a source" rule.

  298. robertallen1

    Then why didn't you state this instead of making a baldfaced assertion--yes, it is necessary. You still haven't grasped the difference between a statistical and a non-statistical claim--and you probably don't want to.

  299. lakhotason

    Or maybe you should quit trying to impose rules and let others discuss the way they choose to discuss. I think that would alleviate most of the problem.

    Good night.

  300. Keith Thomas


    Just came by this link and your series of posts. What's your point?
    - To understand or reduce the other (lakhotason) or ..... what? The author in the preceding blurb makes a quite relevant observation - we need to reach out with reason to the unreasonable.
    - So where do you sit on this one?

  301. Bruce

    Absolutely fantastic! Loved every segment. I am a science teacher and I going to have all my students view it. Thanks so much for giving of your time to produce this.

  302. Epicurus

    ...well this escalated quickly. if you want to get all saucy thats fine with me.

    could you give me maybe one or two examples of me displaying "poor comprehension, flawed reasoning & arrogance." except the arrogant part....we all know im arrogant but that doesnt bother me at all.

    what im really concerned with is poor comprehension and flawed reasoning.

    just show me how i have demonstrated that.

    i never implied that you are dishonest or an imbecile. i think you got that feeling from your own insecurities.

  303. robertallen1

    I will comment when and if I choose. Whether you like it or not, this is a public forum.

  304. robertallen1

    So your idea of reason is baldfaced statements with nothing behind them.

  305. over the edge

    i have no idea what country you are in but the religions sections of this doc might land you in hot water if you promote it to students. i would hate to see a school lose a science teacher

  306. robertallen1

    As I posted to Vlatko, while the core ideas are fine, the problem is that the narrator at times departs from them.

  307. over the edge

    the only answer i could give would be to repeat what Vlatko said. i enjoyed the video and accept any mistakes.

  308. oQ

    i changed my mind! lol

  309. Joël Cuerrier

    All entirely irrelevant. What happen now is you're self-commiting genocide. Nothing else matter here, in the future, you do not exist. Overpopulation is not a problem for the first-world, the opposite is, depopulation and self-genocide is the problem. The future is death.

    And don't get things backward. Science have killed philosophy. It almost doesn't exist anymore, except in the periphery of Paris, that's about it. What I mean is, it occupy an insignificant position on public discourse, wherein science have taken over everything. And to be sure, most science is junk science. You just believe things too easily, shifting one blind faith for another.

    And science isn't that prodigal anymore. Just like medicine. It didn't create that much in the past 50 years, compared to the first half of the XXth century. They invented viagra and a whole lot of drug to cure fake-illness (new mental illnesses we come up with yearly, to justify new drugs).

    You're just too dogmatic to understand the world you live in, and you just follow the mob mentality that did deify science. You think it's a new thing to crucify science? No way, Nietzsche was doing it 130 years ago. For the same reasons I am giving you. Science is great, but humans aren't, and most science is as mystical as any old cult.

    And what I'm saying here is with an understanding that science have trumped everything. That is, most science today is not "hard science", but soft science. And people who are practicing soft science are pretending what they are doing is as valid as chemistry, and as certain as mathematics. There is so much junk science, soft science, that it overshadow the real hard science, with data and lab evidence. I mean, the kind of science that will use statistics to come up with probable results. Like psychiatry that is an entirely subjective science. But that we believe in regardless of their foolishness (homosexuality a mental illness one year, not the next; coffee abuse a mental illness the next year, who care anymore; ADD is not a real thing you know). So you have to believe in these hyper-subjective scientific fields. And they only find their validity once people believe in them. And once they do, everyone start taking drugs and the pharmaceutical can keep on making money selling junk.

    But think of this, remember what the old Nobel Prizes of medicine were? Check the first 50 years, check what they've been since. I mean, we made huge progress in the past, now there's a lot of junk around. Big Pharma even have trouble coming up with new original products, so they make up new antidepressant snake oil medicine. Which governments around the world spending billions to provide their citizenry with, with no real decline in suicide rate as a result.

    So get your head out of the sand about science. You don't know it, you just believe in it. And there is a world of difference between physics and chemistry... and the rest of all the made-up sciences that we've invented in the last 50 years to fill a vacuum.

  310. Sag Esse

    I love science... but this documentary freaks me out. You can't call someone ignorant because he believes in reincarnation. This is his belief and it has nothing to do with his understanding of science. Science doesn't exclude the fact that we are emotional silly animals that like to be entertained with mystical and unusual ideas.

  311. PalTonk

    Is it ignorant to believe in Santa Claus?

  312. dewflirt

    The like is for the changed mind! ;)

  313. guest

    what an ignorant ramble! You call the diseases fake, just so you can say "medical science doesn't cure anything anymore"

    How stupid do you have to be to not know, that science moves forward ever faster?

    Does it scare you? Are you afraid, that you won't be able to live in fairy tales, once the true world is revealed?

    YOU are part of the problem with the human race! You like all the scientific wonders, but you don't want to have science tell you, that you are dead wrong on your childish thoughts!

  314. Joël Cuerrier

    This is just too stupid to respond to.

  315. RikG01

    No I'm sorry that's just ridiculous. To clam that "most science is as mystical as any old cult" is ludicrous ignorance in the extreme. Mystical things have no proof and are little more than fantasy, science is empirical, it is testable, repeatable, observable. What are these so called "soft sciences" you're blathering about? What's really frankish is that you among the things you apprently define as "hard science" is philosophy. Seriously? You can't tell the difference between psychiatry, the pharamaceutical industry or medical science, rolling them into one bizarre ball but philosphy is fact?
    What the hell are you smoking?

    The scientific process isn't just 'look at some stuff and write about it. The process is observe, hypothesise, find evidence against, test evidence against, experiment, re-do the experiments, re-do them again, offer up the findings as a thesis to peer review, peers re-do the experiments, if hypothesis is found valid, gather more evidence/observations, attempt to find evidence against, develop theory, publish theory for peer review.

    You claim "fake diseases" and yet I'd wager that you haven't actually done any kind of scientific work to establish this position. Your claim that the only medical invention of the last 50 years is viagra, is so unbelievably wrong that I don't even know where to start. Least of all the fact that viagra is a pharmaceutical creation. Without getting into arguments about diseases on which you've stated your baffling position (Germ theory has been well established for a hundred years, were you in a cave?), medical science has created:

    infitely more safe suturing processes, mechanical prosthetic limbs, restored hearing for many deaf people, restored sight for many blind people, increased survival rates across the world for cancer patients, repairs of heart problems and kidney failures. We have organ transplant, brain surgery, replacement bones, stints to open collapsed veins and arteries, MRIs to scan through the entire body down to the microscopic level without x-rays, infinitely reduced child-birth and infant moratality rates, nerve repair, mapping of the brain, mapping of DNA, skin-grafts, better contraceptive methods for women, better contraceptive methods are being developed for men (yep, we're getting the pill, hooray! :D). That's just a few I could think of off the top of my head.

    You're also entirely wrong about the way science in general changes. Science doesn't completely change it's standpoint from one view to the extreme other. There are more than two states in the world you know?
    Newton's calculations about gravity were found to be flawed at different levels, even though they were correct at the scales he was examining. Newton was technically wrong about gravity, that doesn't mean we all started floating around when this was discovered.
    Science is refined, not completely changed. Newtons work which is still valid, remains, the rest is replaced by better infromation. Scientific knowledge only ever becomes more correct so long as the findings are properly tested.
    Oh and homosexuality was never considered a mental illness by the scientific community as a whole, only by a few "doctors" who got far too much press, due to the fact that their claims were useful to bigots.

    As for Nobel Prizes, the 2011 Physics prize went to three gentleman for demonstrating the expansion of the universe through studies of super-nova, the Chemistry prize was awarded for the discovery of Quasicrystals. So 2011 alone shows how wrong you are there.
    And for your 50 year comparison, the 1962 physics prize was awarded for theories on condensed matter, the chemistry prize: the study of globular proteins. Sure Discoveries now may not be so Earth shattering in comparison, I think it's fair to say that's because the big leaps in understanding have already been made.

    Finally, I cannot understand, why on Earth you would bring up Nietsche?

  316. robertallen1

    As long as the person understands that it is nonsensical, that's fine, but when he begins to believe that it really happened, he is ignorant.

  317. robertallen1

    Your English is on a level with your ignorance.

  318. robertallen1

    No. It's just that you have neither the knowledge nor the intelligence to respond to it and as such, you and those like you are the problem. I resent being advised by a wilful ignoramus such as you.

  319. robertallen1

    Excellent response. I can't understand why on earth he would bring up anything, but unfortunately the world (and this string) are filled with individuals just like him.

  320. Kateye70

    Birth rates are not a 'one-factor' issue.

    It isn't 'science' that has convinced people to stop having babies, its a confluence of multiple factors, top of which is education--and not because they're being taught 'science'.


    When women are educated, they are less likely to marry young and start reproducing immediately, and when the do, they reproduce less, since they and their children are more likely to survive birthing. This is one reason certain religions like to prevent women from being educated and want to marry them off at puberty.

    They also tend to have better knowledge of contraceptive methods (and don't anyone get excited, contraception in one form or another has been around since people figured out what caused babies!).

    I could keep going, but it's too complex a subject. There are many other factors, and when they combine, they lead to falling birth rates, either temporarily or as a long-term trend.

    I pulled this information from wikipedia, but it is just stating what I have read over many years from many sources.

  321. Achems_Razor

    I have read your post, and considering what you have said I deem it unnecessary to refute any of your erroneous claims.

    You do not really have a clue to what you are talking about at this time, if in the future you do hone your skills at presenting a proper argument with sources to justify your claims then maybe I will take notice, sorry.

  322. robertallen1

    I look at it this way: it's better to raise one child right than three badly and by the same token, it's better to have no children than raise one badly. Secondly, with the world population increasing in proportion to the amount of resources, we can use a slowed-down birth rate, even if it goes against the beliefs of ignorant religees such as Joel Cuerrier.

  323. robertallen1

    Actually, you have responded.

  324. Kateye70

    I agree. That's an educated person's viewpoint, since you know the larger picture.

    I think part of his point was that it is the educated first world (he said 'west') that has reduced birth rates--except in the U.S. where some people are happily reproducing at biblical rates, haha!

    He's right that the third world countries are reproducing faster than ever. I was just pointing out that there are many factors affecting birth rates.

    I don't know where you get the idea that Joel Cuerrier is a 'religee.'

    I just reread his posts, and while he does warn that science is being elevated to the status of a religion (i.e., believe anything because 'science' says so, without investigating the claims first), and points out that while religion has its downside, it has also produced good (I happen to agree there, as much as I think it has more than outlived its usefulness in human society, it does fulfill certain human needs), and pointed out that the religious beliefs of certain cultures is leading to increased population in their countries.

    I don't see anywhere that he professed to belong to any religion much less promulgate a belief system.

  325. Joël Cuerrier

    It is hilarious what you're saying here. The world is not one place without any border! The population of Europe have been decreasing for a long time. So basically, the future is African and Muslim now, that's it. It is the engine of population growth in this world. Japan is the only place with a strict restriction on all immigration, and their population is declining fast. All first-world countries are declining. Overpopulation is not a problem in Canada or Norway or Sweden, we are not one world, without border.

    Maybe you think it will be all fine. Who care if the future belong to Afghan women (7 children on average)? Right, I mean, they're worst off than any woman ever been in the last 2500 years in the western world.

    That's the problem here, the most educated are committed to their own self-genocide. While the most ignorant are giving us our future generations. This was all very predictable from the start... and it is a zoologist that predicted it in the 1970's. Desmond Morris was one of those proponents of the "overpopulation problem". On the flip side, he saw what was coming, wealth and educated people will stop having babies, poor and illiterate people will have tons of them. It is what have happened. You do understand the economic crisis is nothing else than this. It's got nothing to do with the economy, everything to do with demographic crisis. The Greeks cushioned by a Welfare State they never paid for decided they didn't need to have new taxpayers (birthrate at 1.2), that they didn't need to work (retire at 50) and then, someone's surprised that this doesn't add up? This is true of all countries in trouble now. Italy, Spain too had no children for a generation. Germany didn't have children for a generation, but they are working harder and longer. Still, they will collapse too.

    So overpopulation have been fueled by science how? Because it is entirely based on false projections of 60's and 70's scientists that people started fearing the worst. That was the heyday of overpopulation rhetoric. Since, every rich countries (except a few like France, Ireland, Australia, USA) is in net population decline, in their native population. This is slowed down artificially by injecting large amount of people from Third-World countries. So don't worry, without mass-immigration, population decline in some areas of Europe would go at such a pace that you'd see populations halves themselves over 40 years periods. In effect too, Europe will turn African in the broader sense. Since white people in general around the world stopped having babies, the result will be simple, they will be replaced by other people, with different culture.

    There's got to be a middle-ground among the ruins we are leaving behind us. Between a future of more illiterate Afghan women, and childless divorced PhD graduate woman living in a collapsing Western world with no future. While we talk about debt, our greatest debt is our lack of progeny really, one goes with the other. This has nothing to do with religion versus science, it is pure common sense every civilizations understood in the past. There is no such thing as overpopulation in the Western World. It's a problem in Pakistan/India/Bangladesh/China/Nigeria and so fourth, it is not our problem.

  326. robertallen1

    So what are you suggesting in this wall of twaddle, that we jettison science, that we increase the birth rate in the west? That people be forced into having more children? And by the way, what's the matter with a "childless, divorced Ph.D. graduate woman? " As matter of fact, what is a "Ph.D. graduate?"

  327. Kateye70

    By 'belief system' I was referring to religion. He has never said he belonged to one, nor quoted any religious scriptures. Regardless of what you just said, he was stating an opinion based on his observed facts. You're using 'ignorant religee' to describe anyone who disagrees with you, now--you might want to rethink that. Just a suggestion =)

    The scientific method is good, but there are downsides to everything. To ignore them is to be deliberately blind to reality (sound familiar?) That's what he was pointing out, and giving a specific instance. I agree with his overall point, even if I broadened the scope of one area.

  328. robertallen1

    The post of his you responded to certainly promulgates a belief system, especially his blaming science for the declining birth rate in the west and coming down on it for being the catalyst (actually one of several as you have pointed 0ut), coupled with his defense of religion as promoting art and philosophy a few posts back leads me to believe that he is a religee and while I may be mistaken, it's hard to believe that he's not. However, further posts might tell.

  329. Kateye70

    Certainly the status of women worldwide is an issue. Way too big for a comment board.

    He wasn't suggesting that we jettison science, from what I read. Just pointing out a negative side effect which we would be foolish to ignore.

    I happen to agree with him that there was a tremendous amount done in the arts due to religious support. It was done by wealthy members of the religious elite, so yes, you could say it has done so. Remember Michaelangelo? Sistine Chapel? etc? Just one example among many. That religion was a dominant social factor led to its influence on the arts, direct or indirect.

    Also, members of religious groups (not laity, just the members) were often the most educated in their given communities. Who else debates theology and philosophy except educated people? Not many, they're all too busy working in the fields and factories and taking care of the wealthy. That's part of what the protestant reformation was all about, teaching lay people to read their own bibles so they, too, could take part in the discussion.

    I guess you could call me a 'religee' too, since I'm willing to discuss these matters, and acknowledge the good with the bad.

  330. robertallen1

    I did state that I might be wrong about his religious bent. However, I do not use the term religee to describe someone who disagrees with me (and you can use yourself as an example), but rather someone whose wilful ignorance is engendered by his religious beliefs.

    When it comes to scientific matters, the scientific method is the only way and I'm rather surprised that you agree with someone who downs science for contributing to the declining birth rate in the west.

  331. oQ

    Would you do Robert a favor and tell him if you are a "religee" or not, he needs a bone to chew.

  332. robertallen1

    Since when is the declining birth rate in the west a negative side effect? And who does this person think he is criticizing a woman for deciding to remain childless and instead concentrate on her education? I believe it to be a matter of personal choice, Billary or no Billary or Joel Cuerrier no Joel Cuerrier.

    Since when has religion been a true patron of the arts? What you mention was not done to promote art, but rather a certain narrow set of views using art as a medium. In his time, Michaelangelo was considered no more than a tradesman and the great art that came from him and which we admire was merely a surprising side effect. If religion had not been as powerful as it was in Michaelangelo's time, Michaelangelo's art might have turned out very differently--and still have been great art. In addition, religion has been behind just about every censorship movement within the last two hundred years--the National Legion of Decency was not established as a secular organization. Anthony Comstock did not base his persecution of D.M. Bennet solely on secular grounds. As for philosohy, anybody can contemplate anything.

  333. lakhotason

    Little more than fantasy? As if fantasy isn't the cornerstone of science.

  334. RikG01

    I tend to agree with Kateye on the religious status of Joel, I was going to pick you up on it earlier as a matter of fact but decided it was pointless, as whether Joel is religious or not, he's certainly posted some tremendous twaddle. And you're right, his ongoing posts would suggest that view, however he could merely be playing devils advocate.

    As Kateye pointed out though, Joel was right in one..ish of his assertions though probably not for the reasons he thinks. That being that people accept something when told it's scientific, or presented in a lab-coat, without checking it out themselves. Unfortunately, the rest of the post that went along with it was comple garbage.

    Rather than pointing out flaws in modern science, which seemed to be the goal, Joel merely referenced a flaw in (adult) human nature, trusting authority. This, in no way, excuses the drivel about "soft-science" and is of course exactly the problem with both Theists and Atheists. Not just people who accept science over religion, as he seems to (so entirely wrongly) imply. Both sides need to excercise more and frequent critical thinking to avoid being scammed by pseudo-science, bankers, political bitchiness and religous extremist bigots, like that truly evil barsteward of a pope, benedict (razinger) the scumbag. Atheists at least havea leg up, they've freed themselves from religion, so can clearly practice critical thinking.
    We just need to assert it more readily.

    Theists, of course, will have further to go.

  335. RikG01

    "Little more than fantasy? As if fantasy isn't the cornerstone of science."
    If you mean that science started with fantasy (religion) as the first stage of learning, because the earliest philosphers and scientists couldn't have known better, then in their efforts to learn the truth, discovered much of that religion to be only fantasy, then you would be correct.

    If however you're suggesting that science is built on fantasy, then you really need to go back to school. No, you need to go to a different one, cos you've been taught a load of BS, mate. Watch the series and start again. Free yourself.

  336. lakhotason

    Here, argue with this, not me.

    The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge. - Albert Einstein

    Doesn't sound like a load of bs to me.

  337. robertallen1

    If you're saying examine the source, you're right. It's the difference between listening to Michael Behe and William Dembski as opposed to Kenneth R. Miller and Andrew Wiles. It's the difference between lending credence to an ignorant layman over a distinguished scientist, such as Phillip E. Johnson or Chuck Missler (the peanut butter man) over Richard Dawkins and Francisco Ayala or a quack such as Dr. Sebi over Jonas Salk. It's the difference between Ivan Panin and William Lane Craig on the one hand and Bart Ehrman and Marvin Meyer who passed away today on the other--and it's also one thing to be wrong and another to be pseudo about it.

  338. robertallen1

    This flagrant instance of quote mining and quoting from authority demonstrates your lack of attention to the basics of the documentary.

  339. docoman

    One point with art... it was the 'wealth' that financed much of the arts. Being that the 'church' has been one of the wealthy over the last few centuries, it's no surprise they have paid for some of what is considered great art of the past. I don't think this is because of their beliefs, but because of their gift at manipulation and creation of wealth, giving them the ability, along with the royalty and other wealthy of the times, to pay for it.
    Priests didn't paint the Sistine Chapel, they paid an artist to do it for them. It wasn't religion or divine inspiration, it was $$ and and a brilliant artist that did it.

  340. Vlatko


    Quote mining indeed. The same way religious people are trying to prove that he was religious.

    He is talking about fantasizing in the domain of science. Example: What will happen if I ride on a ray of light? Hypothetical question which starts a serious journey into mathematics and physics.

  341. Sertsis

    I have specifically watched this doc because it had generated so many comments, thinking that it might be a lightning rod for a true discourse on thinking critically. Although I found the doc to be a bit dry, and somewhat politically motivated in that it would encourage activism by the viewer by suggesting that we post their views publicly if we cared enough about empirical science, I instead found that the comments were more closely based on personal bias, which this doc warned against,and I am sorry to report that it has evolved into a clash of personalities. I would not want to deprive people of expressing their opinions, I only wish that it actually had something to do with the topic at hand.

  342. RikG01

    Yeah, sorry I didn't mean to lecture you, I combined responses to the debate between you and Kateye, with a general statement. This was a mistake and very unclear, my apologies. Believe me, I have no questions about your skepticism.

    @Iakhotason I will absolutely argue with you, especially when you quotemine, as I find this type of argument morally and intellectualy repugnant. Your quote could be interprested in many ways and is therefor entirely useless. I don't know the source but all it says to me is that Einstein loved his imagination and valued it for allowing him to consider possiblities.

    I'm trying to work out if I'm just misunderstanding you and you're saying that creativity is necessary for scientific wonder?

  343. robertallen1

    Nice to hear from you and you're right. What's really bad is all the money that religion was able to acquire to accomplish this.

  344. docoman

    Still here from time to time mate... looks like I've probably got another "cut 'n slash " coming up :( ... science willing I'll be around for awhile yet :) I'd already be dead if I listened to the likes of 'Dr.Quack' or whatever his name was.... lol... hmm, it'd be nice if a 'herbal brew' fixed all...

  345. lakhotason

    I know what Einstein is talking about as well as you. However I also understand that he means much more than what you are saying.

    I didn't put it up to be quote mining. I used to show what would happen when I put it up. I'll be willing to bet than none of you read the entire context from which the quote was taken. So how can you tell me what Einstein meant?

    It is strange that those who propose to be creatures of science are the least scientific. They confuse information with knowledge. Science isn't about formulas, theories, proofs, etc. That is merely the paperwork of science. Science is imagination, fantasy.

    And that is what is lacking here. The inability to imagine. I spent several hours going through comments of certain commentators and I could not find one original thought. Not one comment with imagination. All to be seen is just the shuffling of the paperwork. That's not science, that's clerking.

    The man that ridicules in the name of science is no different than the Inquisitor. Both are cowards. Paperwork and digression are used to hide their cowardice. A coward cannot be a scientist.

  346. Giacomo della Svezia

    He may be a pessimist as much as he likes. What I find disquieting in Joël's comment is that it reminds me of the xenophobic nonsense that has become more popular in my country (the Netherlands) lately.
    I may not like the islamic religion too much, but when he argues Europe will be taken over by islamic african people and that our democratic systems and our culture will dissappear as a consequence I get the impression I'm hearing someone from the french Front National or the Party for Liberty in my country. That's prejudice, not based on facts, but enimical sentiments.

  347. Kateye70

    Money...that's what I meant by 'support'. Artists always need patrons, whether individuals or institutions of one sort or another. Trust me, I know =(

  348. robertallen1

    No umbrage taken and I could see right away what you did which was no mistake and no questioning of my skepticism.

    I rarely resort to quotes, except when they're from a blog. The concern seems to be how they are used. I recently quoted Dr. Dawkins on Kurt Wise as an example of a potentially good mind gone wrong, not as a metaphysical statement about science. If someone posits that Einstein was at heart a theist, quoting from him (and I don't mean out of context) is the most cogent and appropriate refutation, a tack employed by a number of posters on this thread. An observation about the tyranosaurus might be well backed up with a quote from Dr. Jack Horner. The problem arises when quotes are used or transmogrified to support metaphysics (supernaturalism), theology, a political point of view or statements about the nature of an intellectual endeavor such science of which Iakhotason's is an egregious example. I would appreciate your thoughts.

  349. docoman

    I think I know what you mean... without some imagination it would be hard to come up with a Hypothesis to test...???

  350. robertallen1

    Or perhaps a bottle of Tohey's or Hahn.

  351. lakhotason

    Without imagination it would be impossible.

  352. robertallen1

    You are guilty of quote mining pure and simple and this lengthy and largely irrelevant cop-out ("I didn't put it up to quote mining.") with smoke screen ("They confuse information with knowledge.") and red herring ("Not one comment with imagination.") not only intensifies your culpability, but colors everything you post.

    "A coward cannot be a scientist." Well, that certainly leaves you out. Therefore, what business do you have commenting on a subject you know nothing about?

  353. robertallen1

    You're also hearing the inimical voice of paranoia.

  354. Achems_Razor

    Don't know what you mean "The man that ridicules in the name of science is no different than the inquisitor. Both are cowards. Paperwork and digression are used to hide their cowardice. A coward cannot be a scientist."?

    I presume that is not relating to any of us at TDF?

  355. robertallen1

    Of course, artists need patrons, but that's not the point of Docoman's post. "Trust me, I know." is unworthy of you.

  356. Vlatko


    As usual I'm not sure I understand what are you trying to say.

    Science isn't about formulas, theories, proofs, etc... science is imagination, fantasy... A coward cannot be a scientist...

    Now what to take out of this.

    The "paperwork" is 99% of the job. I don't know why are you undermining this.

    It turns out you only appreciate theoretical science. Are all the others cowards?

    Theoretical science can't exists without practical/empirical. What Einstein deduced through mathematics and logic couldn't be held as true without empirical confirmation. I think several teams waited for 8 years for a solar eclipse in order to measure and confirm general relativity for the first time (Gravitational redshift of light).

    The same with the Higgs boson. Higgs predicted the existence of the particle through mathematics, but it took hundreds of billions of dollars and a small army of scientists to empirically prove its existence.

    Don't tell me all those man are cowards.

    Sure it all begins with EUREKA, and almost all the credit goes to the person who shout it, but it does not end there.

  357. lakhotason

    A scientist has to go against current knowledge and must be willing to endure the ridicule. Takes guts. A clerk sits sharpening his pencil
    waiting to ridicule. A coward. A scientist is willing to take chances even if he is later proved to be wrong. A clerk is always right but he takes no chances. A scientist , if wrong, at least learns. A clerk learns nothing, he is more concerned with ridiculing those who took the chances.

  358. Manu Hashidate

    While Edison was busy inventing his infamous and most-ridiculed device to attempt communication with the dead utilising tubes, gases and electricity - he accidentally invented the cathode ray tube, and hence - television!

  359. docoman

    In my experience it's not only the 'average' person who doesn't understand science fully. (no doubt myself included) as the introduction says..
    I've had a GP tell me he can cure me in 6 weeks with diet and exercise... which I know from experience is total bs, been there, tried that more then once... and that was a Doctor, a trained 'scientist'. (you have no idea how much I wish he was correct) But, I've also had a surgeon save my life... some 'scientists' are not agnostic, which to me seems somewhat of a contradiction...
    I think you have to go with what you feel is trustworthy, and to me, I'll trust my surgeon before some 'herbal quack', mixed with my own intuition of what my body is telling me...any day of the week.. as I said, I'd not be here without that attitude, which is true.

  360. robertallen1

    Complete romantic nonsense. Most of the greatest scientists as well as their discoveries were mainstream, even Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin, Newton. Endeavoring to add to a body of knowledge does not equate to heroism or standing up to fear of ridicule.

  361. Vlatko


    "A scientist has to go against current knowledge..."

    That is completely untrue and dishonest.

    Most of the scientific work is piling up on the existing knowledge. Adding new discoveries, related to the previous ones. They can't come out of blue. You can't invent new mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, etc. You can only work within them.

    Thanks to the previous understanding Einstein could deduce his theories. And his theories are not devoid from the previous understanding. They complement the previous knowledge and they describe it in greater detail.

  362. robertallen1

    But you're approaching it rationally.

  363. robertallen1

    So what are you saying?

  364. lakhotason

    No Vlatko, that is not dishonest nor is it completely untrue.

    And what about the rest of the statement? Therein lies the discussion.

  365. Vlatko

    I gave you my opinion why I think that way.

  366. robertallen1

    There are two people who came CLOSEST to going against current knowledge and inventing new mathematics ALMOST singlehandedly, Galois and Cantor and the interesting thing is that while their work seems to be in two different fields, these fields are intimately related. A close contender is Abel.

  367. robertallen1

    Another bald statement. How about backing it up, perhaps with some scientific history?

  368. Vlatko


    What statement? About the clerks... they're not scientists. Honestly I don't know what are you saying. I can only guess.

    Are we the clerks who ridicule pseudoscientists, for whom you think are the real scientists, because they went against the mainstream.

  369. docoman

    One example of what lakhotason may be talking about is the Mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot. He did something others said was not possible, and invented fractal geometry.

    Edit- not the coward part, but the inventing new math's part....

  370. lakhotason

    I have no problem with you expressing your opinion. As a matter of fact, we need more opinion. That's my point.

  371. lakhotason


  372. robertallen1

    While Mandelbrot is certainly one of the major mathematicians of our time, his work on fractals was based on research PREVIOUSLY conducted by Gaston Julia and Pierre Fatou and was really not made of whole cloth. In addition, at no time in his career was he ridiculed for his research, but rather held in highest esteem by his peers, the people who count. Another sterling counterexample to Iakhotason.

  373. lakhotason

    You know of no scientist who went against current thought and suffered ridicule? Really?

  374. robertallen1

    That was not what this discussion was about. You've shifted focus.

  375. Achems_Razor

    Don't know what you mean about the clerks, clerks in what?
    Why would a clerk be waiting to ridicule?

    Scientists talking chances? you bet! but they are armed with subject matter that went through the scientific method (I hope) with their experiments laid out for peer review.

    Science is always striving to prove something wrong or to better the prognosis/facts, not to go against current knowledge. Science means change, upwards mobility.

  376. Vlatko


    Yes, but the fractal geometry is not completely unrelated scientific language. It overlaps with the previous understanding.

    Read about Julia's paper on iteration of a rational function. He was working on polynomials and rational functions.

    Read about how Mandelbrot was inspired from that paper and what he did.

    Mandelbrot didn't invent fractals out of the blue. He had a deep understanding of Julia's work and he expanded on that.

  377. robertallen1

    Did I say that? Let's examine my statement "Most of the greatest scientists as well as their discoveries were mainstream, even Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin, Newton. Endeavoring to add to a body of knowledge does not equate to heroism or standing up to fear of ridicule." Now, how you read into that that an assertion to the effect that I know of no scientist who went against current thought and suffered ridicule is beyond me. Another one of your distortions. Those who did go against current thought, suffered ridicule (I assume you mean from their peers) and were later proved right are in a small minority.

  378. docoman

    Why it's not part of the 'coward' argument. And, like you say, is also built on some work done by others earlier. But... without some curiosity and imagination, we'd still be looking to some 'deity' to explain natural events, instead of searching for other possibilities. Without some 'outside the accepted box thinking', which may or may not be what lak is talking about?, we'd be still in the stone age with rain gods ect... ??
    Sometimes, it may take courage, eg. Galileo to say that your results go against the accepted theory.
    Comes back to the beauty of science though, it's self correcting with the required evidence.

  379. robertallen1

    After reading Iakhotason's last few posts, I'm hearing bugles and tympani.

  380. lakhotason

    No, I don't mean that. Go back and read my reply to Vlatko of one hour ago. It pretty well explains what I mean by the name clerk.

  381. docoman

    If you don't try something new, you'll never be able to discover something new.....right or wrong you don't really know until you test it.

  382. robertallen1

    I regard Galileo, Copernicus, Dawin and Newton, etc. as very much in the box (a phrase I hate due to its use to justify all sorts of crazy and idiotic notions). Their curiosity led to their observations and their observations led to their codifications. There was rarely any heroism involved. As I stated earlier, most of their breakthroughs were accepted by their peers almost immediately. So contrary to Iakhotason's assertion, a scientist need not be intrepid to blaze new trails.

  383. docoman

    I see what you're saying. I would also think it's a thrill to announce to the world something you've discovered that adds to our understanding... not so much brave as fun/ego (career) building. :)
    Edit- their peers had to accept the evidence and logic, can't argue against something you observe to be true.

  384. robertallen1

    I hope you're not using this to justify pseudosciences such as astrology, intelligent design, alchemy, etc.

    How many cases do you know of a scientist waking up one morning and saying, "Today, I'm going to try something new and different?" From my reading about the great scientists, I've discovered that novelty (read breakthrough) comes about gradually and naturally and not through brute force. Darwin and natural selection are a fine example of this.

    You might be interested in reading about how the microwave oven came about.

  385. lakhotason

    Now that I've let this run with little or no comment go back and read the fourth paragraph of my reply to Vlatko. Where did I say this was happening?
    Where do I say the clerks are? Where did I say was imagination less important than papershuffling?

  386. docoman

    As a side point, the 'in the box thinking' may be partly a result of hindsight maybe? I'd expect it wasn't so easily accepted by the 'peers' of the time, but the logic was indisputable when examined.

  387. robertallen1

    I can't argue against that, but it's a different subject.

    Your edit backs up what I've been saying. Rarely does a scientist come up with something new, be ridiculed or at any rate excoriated by his peers and then is later shown to be correct.

  388. Epicurus

    If i have seen further it is only because i stand on the shoulders of giants

  389. docoman

    No, not trying to justify pseudosciences at all, just seeing that imagination is a part of coming up with a hypothesis, (a new possible explanation for an observed phenomenon).
    Edit- a hypothesis is only an idea, may or may not be correct after testing.

  390. robertallen1

    One way or the other, it's still definitely "in the box" and one way or the other, most scientific breakthroughs were accepted by the scientific community within a relatively short time, even after some initial doubt.

  391. over the edge

    .hey lak
    not to take the discussion in another direction but. other than common law (your first post on this doc). do you have any objections of the things that are portrayed as pseudo science or lore in this doc or do you agree with these things being classified this way?

  392. lakhotason

    No. Just the common law statement threw me. I've thought and thought about it and I cannot see common law as lore.

  393. robertallen1

    Inspiration seems more accurate, for it takes more into account everything that went before the magical breakthrough--or perhaps the English language lacks a word for this. Imagination just doesn't seem to cut it.

  394. docoman

    True. Inspiration is a better fitting word. That's what I'm meaning, an educated guess kind of.

  395. dewflirt

    Try inspagination :)

  396. robertallen1

    Besides, how many great ideas can a scientist come up with in a lifetime, one or perhaps two. Not everyone's a Newton.

  397. docoman

    Lol, I'd be happy with 1 :) Then again, I'd be happy with the title scientist lol.

  398. lakhotason

    Does anyone now see what I meant by ridicule and digression. I made a statement and immediately the ridicule commenced. And then digressed to the point of not even paying any attention to what I wrote. That is what I predicted would happen if you read again. Always hiding behind paperwork and digression. Nothing original.

  399. Anonymous

    This poor soul who put this documentary hasn't really thought critically about some of the very things the documentary addresses...evolution goes against both the 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics, simple. No way whatsoever around it...seeing the problems with the "theory" of evolution IS thinking critically...

    Not all people who reject so called basic scientific knowledge are religious zealots. In fact, ANYONE who has studied science properly would be foolish to not realize how often scientific fact has changed...what is today's science is bound to be tomorrow old wives tale...what was yesterday's science is laughable at this point...blood letting, salem witch trials, homosexuality (classified as a disorder in the original DSM)...so if you're going to put your hopes and dreams in science, make sure you study history as well, and do your due diligence and "cricital thinking" and don't buy anything at face value - either religious or scientific. Don't be lazy and actually LOOK FOR YOURSELF to see what is and isn't true.

    Funny...some people are so quick to point the finger without first looking in the mirror...

  400. over the edge

    have you ever looked into Henry Cavendish? while lets say eccentric he made a lot of discoveries but what is most surprising is the papers and discoveries he made but told nobody about. look him up on wiki and take notice of the last two paragraphs. he was brilliant but few know it

  401. over the edge

    this could prove entertaining so i will bite why do you say "evolution goes against both the 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics"

  402. Kateye70

    I was speaking from personal experience.

  403. Epicurus

    "evolution goes against both the 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics,"

    can you explain to me the first and second laws and then explain HOW they go against evolution?

  404. robertallen1

    Obviously you know nothing about the first and second law of thermodynamics other than what you've probably read on a creationist website and yet you have the temerity to state that evolution is wrong. For your information, these laws apply only to closed systems and the earth is an open one. So you don't know what you're talking about.

    Your endeavor to transmogrify one of the beauties of science, the change in perception with the influx of new information, into a major drawback is just as ignorant and ill-founded as your statements about evolution and physics. One way or the other, science beats religion hands down.

    You should be the one looking in the mirror or better yet, in a standard biology and physics text.

    Another ignorant post.

  405. Achems_Razor

    What do you know about the 4 laws of thermodynamics, and why does evolution go against the first two laws, will start you off with wiki, if you need help.


  406. robertallen1

    I know about Cavendish, especially his efforts to determine the weight of the earth. He is to science what Franz Schubert was to music. By why do you mention him? Is it because his work was subject to peer review only after his death?

  407. over the edge

    i only mention it in response to " Not everyone's a Newton. " and i find it interesting that if he got credit for what he discovered he might be as well known. just an interesting tidbit nothing more

  408. robertallen1

    Do you mean by the general public or by those at least somewhat conversant with science?

  409. Joël Cuerrier

    This is all very reductive and redundant. The art just is what it is, in context with the Renaissance. The history of the human race would be entirely different without this context. Pre-Christian religions were also very important. What if the Roman Empire never turned Christian? Who knows what would have happened? Did you ever read Edward Gibson? Enlightenment era historian. He pretty much blame Christians for the fall of the Roman Empire. And he did so 225 years ago. Nothing would be like anything if things went differently. As for censorship, get real about this, censorship have been a very effective promotional tool. What do we remember today? A whole bunch of books that were censored. Stuff that was popular then may well all be forgotten now. So censorship is not only a failure by itself, it create the opposite effect.

  410. robertallen1

    First of all, his name was Edward Gibbon. Secondly, nothing you write makes any sense so I suggest that you clean up your English and then try again.

  411. Joël Cuerrier

    To answer your question about religion. I'm a former nietzschean turned "Secular Catholic". My beliefs are not mystical in any sense of the word, I'm actually quite passionate about science and I read magazines about the latest discoveries on a somewhat regular basis. What I'm against is the people who excuse any opinion they hold, as an opinion that is absolutely correct since "backed by science". This is more problematic than it seem when you hold certain political positions that goes against the common wisdom. That is to say, in Nietzschean terminology, when you are not a sheep, you have to be skeptical of things too many people have taken for granted. Because they confort themselves into a false sense of certainty, given everything have turned into a science. You do understand sociology is a science for example, but it is all quite subjective in many regards. Many new words end in "logy" and are given the credential of a science. Does it mean all of that is irrefutable facts? No, it is as uncertain as a political position. In part, learning to think critically have to mean more than just accepting as irrefutable truths many things put fourth by the many sciences that surround our lives. So I am not a religious person, I am not an atheist because I detest how fanatical this bunch have gotten, and as I grew older, I reacquinted myself with part of my religious heritage, as a mean to understand the culture I am part of. And I am saying, where religion goes, people goes too. And as I was saying in another post, it is people with a religion who reproduce themselves. So it mean your position in effect have no future. Since everywhere you look, it is both the religious and the conservatives who are having babies. The Utopia of a more enlighted era is nipped in the bud. Not that I disagree at all people should move on from religion and get better acquinted with the real world, since it is beautiful in itself, in all its scientific mystery. But unbelievers need to have strong morals, a ethical system that rival that of Judeo-Christianity. Or else, they are doomed. As they are now, because their belief system lead to extinction. So think critically about the society we live in, and what it lead to. Education is great, to build something for the future, to leave great things behind. But if you have no one to leave all that to, what was it all for?

  412. robertallen1

    Why can't you write clearly? Just what are you jabbering about? How about plain English?

  413. Joël Cuerrier

    Maybe the language was imperfect, but you're being a little rude here. English is not my mother's tongue, even if I believe I have some mastery of it.

    I do not disagree with what you said. But see there, you go on to insult the Pope. That's too easy, why would you do that? He's very important to our times, which are threatened by a belligerant islamic power. He's like the clear dividing line between East and West. The Orthodox Church stands a little before, but they are a dying civilization, in a decaying society that's racist and is lost under the rubbles of the collapse of the Eastern Bloc . Ever read The Clash of Civilizations? Good book, and for now the Pope is still very necessary, for all sorts of very profound reasons.

    In Britain, Atheists have been very assertive alright. The result is that they are now turning to radical Islam. Not exactly a good evolution there.

    Do you think the Pope and Catholicism is worst than even mainstream so-called moderate Islam? Can you answer that with a straight face without all the politically correct soft-peddling?

    Atheists have no leg up here, they are being overrun by Islamists. That is what happen in Great-Britain, and that is the core of both militant Atheism and militant Islam in the Western World! Who do you think will come on top in the end? Reason and moderation?

    Atheists, if anything, need to be less assertive and more moderate. That's why despite my lack of belief in a God I would never define myself as simply Atheist. I am a secular Catholic, with all that this entail. Even if I pretend Catholicism is not who I am, it is ingrained deep within my culture. So I prefer embracing it, in the same way a Jew who do not believe in God will, rather than retreat to simple atheism, that tend to be very egotistic by nature.

  414. Joël Cuerrier

    Well, religion do obscure some scientific facts. It's like people who believe Copernicus is the one who figured out the world wasn't flat. Aristotle knew the earth was spherical! Many others before him did. So Copernicus only rediscovered what many others before him understood. But Ancient Greeks also overwhelmingly followed their religion, and we can understand many things in this world through this mythology. Science cannot help us understand things of a metaphysical nature.

  415. robertallen1

    If you can't write clearly, you shouldn't be writing at all and if you think I'm being rude, I mean to be.

    The Pope deserves to be insulted as well as the entire Catholic religion. He and the religion he represents are simply old men with exulted views of themselves who believe that they have the authority to control people's lives by dictating to them on matters of personal choice such as abortion and birth control. The Catholic Church, including the pope and his vassals have been and are no more than conmen gulling the poor and the ignorant so they can finance their grandiose churches, nunneries, monasteries and rampant pederasty and to think that people give in, thus adding to the immense riches of the Catholic Church, riches so immense that it is nothing for it to pay off all those lawsuits arising out of the pederasty which it had sanctioned and kept hidden for so long.

    Throughout its history and well into the present, the Catholic Church has been no more than a theistic form of thuggery with its 800 years of Inquisition, witch hunts and Crusades. And to add to this cesspool, we have papal infallibility, the trinity, the Immaculate conception, indulgences and other such mephitic nonsense. And this is the organization you choose to remain with.

    Well, it's your choice, but I resent someone of your ilk telling atheists that they need to be less assertive and more moderate. Why? To restore lost power to the Catholic Church? But as I mentioned, this is typical of Catholics telling others what to do and what not do.

    One way or the other, I find what I can understood of this post and your earlier ones disgusting.

  416. robertallen1

    You're right. But you must first prove that things of a metaphysical nature exist and this you can't do without resorting to the Christian form of voodoo.

  417. Jack1952

    I'm afraid it is you who has not thought out the relationship between evolution and the laws of thermodynamics. You demonstrate a superficial knowledge on the topic and you are using it to argue a much larger topic. Life is not a closed system. It is part of a larger system and it draws it energy from outside sources to maintain itself and in fact grow.

    Take a shallow black plastic container and place it in the sun. Fill it with water. At first the water will be cool and around the same temperature as the air around it. As the black plastic absorbs the heat from the sun the water temperature will begin to rise. Does this increased energy negate the laws of thermodynamics? According to you it does...but of course it doesn't. It has added the extra energy from the sun because it is not a closed system. Like that container of water, life receives energy from outside sources. We ingest nutrients which our bodies use in a chemical reaction to obtain the energy we need to grow and even to propagate. Those nutrients usually get their energy from the sun. Life is a part of a much larger system which transfers energy from one place to another. This is a simple and crude explanation but it is still a more sophisticated understanding of thermodynamics than what you possess. You can't explain away evolution with the laws thermodynamics. There is no violation.

    The rest of your post I can't even comment on. Anyone who would equate the superstitions of the witch trials with science obviously doesn't have even the simplest understanding of the subject.

  418. robertallen1

    Well put, especially your explanation of the laws of thermodynamics.

  419. over the edge

    when i said "few know it" i meant both groups you mentioned. now i have nothing more then personal belief to back that up (so essentially nothing)

  420. Jack1952

    "Science cannot help us understand things of a metaphysical nature." That's for sure. Are you talking about the metaphysics of the church or just the pope? Not Islam? I'm sure about that one. What about the pantheon of Hindu Gods, or Wica, or the Druids? Tarot cards? Astrology? What about the guy with the Wigi Board? Should I believe that woman at the psychic fair?

    The trouble with metaphysical truth is that it is a different truth for almost everyone. That variety must also make it unreliable and how can the truth be unreliable? Metaphysics lacks in logic, precision or even any kind of consensus among its followers. Science would not even attempt to try to explain it or understand it.

  421. robertallen1

    As a side note, you realize that the term metaphysics acquired its current meaning only within the last 200-300 years or so. The term was originally used about 100 CE by a compiler of the works of Aristotle to describe a section of Aristotle's work which came after his treatment of physics, hence metaphysics or beyond physics.

  422. Jack1952

    I didn't know that. I always thought it meant beyond physics or outside of science and in the spiritual realm. It's not science...it's "God knows what" it is.

  423. Jack1952

    Its sounds to me like Einstein was speaking about or comparing two different subjects. Apples and oranges.

  424. Jack1952

    That's a little unfair. The clerk does the nuts and bolts work, the drudgery, mindless in appearance, essential in that it gives substance to what the theoretical minds invent. It is what some of us are suited to do with our lives. They have the patience and the capacity to sift through all the data, record it and present it in a fashion that makes sense of the ramblings of the imaginative mind. I wouldn't want to be an accountant but have been grateful that someone is willing and able to do the job. Its not cowardice. Its a practical application of ones talents.

  425. Kateye70

    robert, I had zero problem understanding Joel Cuerrier's post.

    I think you are showing your own bias towards English as a first language, as well as your emotional dislike of the poster for whatever personal reason.

    You are someone who knows the value of scientific inquiry; I suggest you make a conscious effort to set aside your own bias, reread his post with an open mind, and address its points, not your emotion.

    That's he's been personally attacked and felt he had to defend his own return to his heritage as a catholic is unfortunate. He's stated he's not a mystic, that he loves science, and he's made a personal choice.

    You sidestepped the actual point he was making and deflected to an irrelevancy. There are many, many theist scientists, and it doesn't detract from their science at all (except in a few cases, and we know who they are, right?).

    He was discussing the fact (and he's right, from what I can understand of the statistics, and I've seen similar reports over the years) that groups which hold certain belief systems are outnumbering those with others and will eventually replace them.

    He also agreed with me that it is a complex issue involving multiple factors.

    I have yet to see you address any of those points.

  426. robertallen1

    Well maybe you have a high tolerance for jibberjabber. I don't and I'm not going to make an effort to unravel it. And please note I was right from the beginning about the infusion of his religion. Now that it turns out he's a Catholic, it's obvious why he criticizes the declining birthrate in the west and why he comes down on childless women who obtain a Ph.D.'s--and it's all despicable.

    You're right, there are many theistic scientists such as Kenneth R. Miller and Francisco Ayala, both Catholics, who manage to leave their religion at the door of their labs and for that as well as their accomplishments, they deserve the highest respect. However, Joel Cuerrier doesn't, especially in his defense of the Pope and Catholicism and in his telling atheists to softpeddle it.

    If you write in clear English what this "complex issue" is or which points you would like me to address, I will try to resond to them.

    If you want to spend time unraveling his twaddle (and by the way, I'm not the only one who regards it thus), that's up to you. By I'm surprised that you would want to.

  427. Kateye70

    "...groups which hold certain belief systems are outnumbering those with others and will eventually replace them." (i.e., religious believers are out-reproducing nonbelievers.)


  428. robertallen1

    On its face, it makes no sense. What is meant by out-reproducing them? Does this mean that if two religious believers have a child, that child is ipso facto a believer?

    Prognostications are a dime a dozen and one's just as good as another.

  429. Kateye70

    Really? That's all you understood? ipso facto? Children are raised to follow their parents' religion, especially uneducated ones. Sometimes religious indoctrination is the only education they get. I have to explain this to someone as smart as you?

    We're not talking 'prognostications' here, we're talking statistical population trends. You can find plenty on the subject, if you're interested (which I am, although you don't seem to be, since you just nitpick and deflect). I've been following the trends for years.

    Why do you think I'm concerned that religious dogma is being inserted into science classrooms in a supposedly first-world country? Because what Joel Cuerrier said is correct. Educated first-world populations are declining; they are being replaced, and rapidly, by uneducated or poorly-educated third-world populations.

    Now, my solution would be to provide access to education, including teaching them how to think critically, to third-world children, somehow or another. (Oddly enough, that would include educating the children of illegal immigrants, unpopular a subject as that is to some Americans.)

    The author of this video appears to understand the importance of education, and critical thinking skills, as well, regardless of what anyone thinks of his production values.

    P.S. Remember our discussion about what 'community' means? This is community at its largest.

  430. robertallen1

    Really, that's all I understand of your snippet.

    When someone makes a statistical claim as Jose Cuerrier did, it's up to him to provide the sources, which he did not do nor for that matter have you--it's not for me to go on a fishing expedition to check him or you out.

    "And will eventually replace them" is an empty prognostication (as opposed to "If current trends continue, . . . . ) if ever there was one.

    As for access to education, especially for third-world children and the offspring of illegal aliens, who is to foot the bill? I really hope you don't think it's the U.S.

    It's unfortunate that the all too often, author of this video does not practice what he preaches--and this has nothing to do with his production values.

  431. Kateye70

    For those of us following the trends over the last 30 years, we don't need to look up old data we're already familiar with. You're really not required to participate in the conversation if it doesn't interest you, though; since you weighed in I assumed you were.

    "Will eventually replace them" is already happening, in certain European countries. Again, I've kept up with this trend. It isn't exactly a new idea, and populations do flow around the world.

    As far who should pay for it, I believe Bill and Melinda Gates' foundation is doing exactly that--I could be wrong, not stopping to research since I'm at work--I know they have a program to help inner city American schools with technology, and I thought they were doing some world-wide initiative but that may be focused on medicine, not technology; other technology billionaires are pursuing things like inexpensive, tough computers that recharge from solar cells to be distributed children in third-world countries.

    As for the U.S., I'd rather see some of the billions being p****d away on futile military campaigns being spent on education instead; both at home (our own schools are becoming abysmal) and abroad.

    Since the reason we're involved militarily overseas is to protect the interest of American multinational corporations, I'd love to see those pirates step up to the plate. Maybe redeem themselves a little bit and give something back to their--yes--community. Since they consider the world their playing field, the world is also their community and they do indeed owe something back, both at home and abroad. No, they did not build that business 'all by themselves.' They had a heck of a lot of military support which the rest of us are paying for, and too many are dying for.

    Disclaimer: This is not a scientific research paper, this is an op-ed.

  432. Joël Cuerrier

    If he is born Christian in some Western European or Blue State American cities. No, he will become an Atheist, as most 30 and under are. If he is born Muslim, he will remain Muslim almost without exception (and young people are more radical than their parents). As for me being Catholic, you are completely missing the point. I am removed from any aspect of the religion, but identify as a Catholic, as a cultural heritage. I am from Québec, the identity we hold as Catholic have been central to our own existence and survival in North-America.

    So maybe you believe culture don't matter? To you, wouldn't it make any difference if everyone behaved the same and had the same language, so long as they understood science? The problem is, the individualistic understanding of society the atheist in postmodernity hold, as belonging to no tribe or nation end up beind detrimental to the desire to reproduce. So there is no cycle here. No way to make this type of society work, because it cannot survive with the values it purport. It's all self-destructing. Kind of like young people today will embrace libertarianism, because it vibrate with their own sense of absolute freedom, disconnected from the society they belong to.

    As for Catholicism, your bias are just those of our era. You can't see the forest for the trees and you don't have an accurate perception of the disastrous results your nihilism engender.

    Maybe you think too much within your own bubble. Which is that science trumps all. Thus, you figure Metaphysics, studied by such famous atheists as Heidegger, is just some mumbo-jumbo that's not even worth thinking about. And that was my point, that science have destroyed philosophy... and in a way, critical thinking as well. By taking it over, and shifting all fields of philosophical thought to the realm of new sciences.

  433. robertallen1

    Obviously you don't take the documentary as seriously as you claim. Remember, the one who asserts has the burden of proving his assertions, research paper or op-ed and stating that you and unnamed others have been keeping up with this trend does not cut it. This is no different from the tactic taken by Iakhotson when he claimed that more innocent people were incarcerated than ever before.

    If you're stating that our money would be better spent in education rather than the military, etc., I agree with you--at home, but not abroad. We don't owe other countries, their dictators and puppet governments anything and we are not the world's policeman nor should we regard ourselves as such. In short, no more foreign involvement. We have enough problems of our own. On the other hand, private concerns, like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the Catholic Church, can do with their money what they want.

  434. robertallen1

    Oh, you're removed from any aspect of the religion? Well then, do you want me to quote what you said about the Pope? Do you want me to quote your advice to atheists --and don't try the smoke screen of a culture and nothing more. If you and those like you had their way, everyone would be Catholic--or else.

    What you describe as my biases against Catholicism are the result of examining the hard facts in considerable, disgusting detail. So don't you go telling me that I can't see the forest for the trees and don't even attempt the old hellfire and brimstone tack of trying to scare me into believing that what you call my nihilism can end only in disaster.

    And yes, metaphysics is some mumbo jumbo unworthy of any serious thought (and Heidegger's cogitations on it are just as valid as those of my neighbor's dog) and if science destroys what you regard as philosophy, more power to it.

  435. over the edge

    Joël Cuerrier
    " he will become an Atheist, as most 30 and under are" if that were true i would be ecstatic but could you point me to where you got that? could you define atheist for me please? you seem to think it involves science,culture and a value system.

  436. robertallen1

    That's the problem. There seems to be a growing number of posters on this website making unsupported statistical claims and when asked for back up resort either to deflection or umbrage and sometimes an eldritch combination of both. How does this tactic differ from similar ones employed by religees?

  437. robertallen1

    And personal belief was all I asked for.

  438. Kateye70

    I clearly stated I was giving my opinion (that's what 'op-ed' meant), and that my recollection of statistics corresponds with what Joel Cuerrier was saying. That's as far as I'm going on statistics, I'm at work. I'm still listening to the doc, had to stop the other day.

    You've stated elsewhere that you don't believe in 'community,' or at least view it in a very narrow sense. However, the 'isolationist' dog was laid to rest at the beginning of the twentieth century. It's long dead and decomposed by now. We live in the world, not the U.S.

    Thank science and technology for that. I do. And coming back to the documentary, if I read the blurb right and understand the gist of what he's saying (I think he could have done it much more concisely, but that's beside the point), it is that lack of education and critical thinking skills is to all our detriment. Worldwide.

    BTW, I don't remember seeing anywhere in the comments guidelines that one can't post one's opinion or speak from experience or that they must provide annotated footnotes to every comment. I explained the scope of my information. I've made my disclaimers so no one is being misled. That's all I feel the need to do.

  439. robertallen1

    "For those of us following the trends over the last 30 years, we don't need to look up old data we're already familiar with." Does this sound like merely an op-ed opinion?

    Whether or not the "isolationist dog" was laid to rest at the beginning of the 20th century is as irrelevant as your statement about the comment policy. We certainly need this isolation now. It should not be our concern if other countries can't take care of their citizens and we have enough problems at it is. If you want to weep crocodile tears over the plight of others less fortunate, that's your choice. If you want to try to do something about it, that's also your choice. But I particularly resent your implied implication of such an obligation on me or anyone else. No, I live in the United States. I believe Achem and Epicurus live in Canada--and that's it.

  440. over the edge

    if someone states something as a belief ,opinion or the like then i do not expect them to back it up. but if it is asserted or implied to be true/fact then i feel it is appropriate to ask for references.

  441. oQ

    Joël Cuerrier is most likely French speaking. Why don't you make an effort if you are going to read him or leave him alone if you do not understand what he writes.
    Every one who writes in this forum, do it in their best ability.

  442. robertallen1

    Exactly. In at least three recent instances, people made statistical assertions (not statements of belief or opinion) which they took umbrage at being asked to back up--and back up does not consist of saying, "I just know this."

  443. robertallen1

    If he can't write clearly, that's his problem. I don't have to bend over backwards to try to fathom his meaning.

  444. over the edge

    while i agree. i think Kateye70 was clear it was an opinion. and the opposition to Lak went on too long. i have no desire to go over these instances again as i avoided them the first time around.

  445. Kateye70

    "Does this sound like merely an op-ed opinion?" Why, yes, yes it does. Why do you think I put the disclaimer in? You are completely free to ignore anything I said in that or any post if it doesn't meet with your approval, as I said before.

    Re: community: I stated my opinion, you stated yours, a while back. You understand what I mean, I understand what you mean. That dog's dead, too.

    My statement about the comment policy was a reminder that 'you're not the boss of me.' Seemed apropos =)

    (Bet you can't name that meme origin!)

  446. Phil Pilgrim99

    Thank you for your reply, hope these examples help to clarify

    Lets start with paragraph 20 in your post:
    “so your first sentence is that you had bias against a chiropractor...that is not likely. no one would spend time and money on something they didnt think would work. you believed your friends testimony and you really wanted it to work.
    POINT 1: you imply that bias is conclusive, the conclusion in your words being: “no one would spend time and money on something they didnt think would work.”
    This is not true. One can have a bias without it being conclusive – say 60% in positive, 40% negative. (or vice versa).
    In the case of my anecdote, the bias was negative to a positive result – I was pessimistic but believed there was a chance it would work
    Still with paragraph 20, you say: “so your first sentence is that you had bias against a chiropractor...that is not likely.”
    If it’s “not likely”, what are the possible explanations for a person to make that statement ?
    Maybe they had/have a very bad memory either permanent or intermittent, or that there’s some other neurological problem, or a psychiatric pathology is responsible, or some other possibly that has to do with not knowing ones mind.
    Maybe that statement is a lie
    What is the basis of your “not likely” assessment – other than those maybes I’ve listed ?.

    POINT 2: Because if you cannot nominate another plausible explanation based in evidence from my correspondence with you, it must be one of my maybes, in which case I believe this statement of mine

    “ , and he/she refused to believe my stated biases, insisting that they were the opposite, ie that he/she didn't believe me - which implies he thinks I'm dishonest, or that I don't know my own mind."

    is justified, and warranted in the interests of getting to the truth.


    Now lets go back to the beginning of your post where you quote me: (paragraph 2)
    "Personal testimony is a form of evidence, wouldn't you agree ? and many people including myself testify to its value in treating skeleton problems, and it's definitely not placebo in my case - didn't get the placebo effect when my normal doc tried treating the problem, didn't get a placebo effect when the physiotherapist tried to fix it."
    And you responded: (paragraph 4)
    "clearly you dont understand placebo either."
    Your use of the word “clearly” carries the unambiguous implication that you derived strong/convincing evidence from my statement that I “..don’t understand placebo.. “ What is the evidence ?
    Before answering, may I draw your attention to paragraph 24: you quote yourself:
    PS i wanted to add, i accept that your experience happened and that would be more than enough for anyone to be suspicious about the success of it. so i dont blame you for that at all. and everything else you said in your post seems absolutely rational.
    The key phrase is “…enough .. to be suspicious about the success of it.” (ie treatment by the chiropractor). How could you draw your “.. suspicious ..” conclusion (given the evidence) unless your reasoning was underpinned by the assumption that success was impossible, or at least highly unlikely ? As far as I can see your “.. success ..” statement strongly imputes that such an underpinning assumption exists.
    POINT 3: The evidence I present here pertaining to paragraphs 2, 4 and 24 carries the strongest of imputations that you believed/believe I had a positive bias toward a successful treatment. – the source of a placebo effect.
    (I had considered the possibility that you believed a nocebo effect was a factor in my experience with the medical doctor & physiotherapist, however dismissed that in light of the clear imputation derived from your “.. success ..” statement.)
    Next I draw your attention to paragraph 23 where you quote yourself.
    “for some reason or another traditional medicine failed you (albeit i dont know how many doctors you consulted, what your problem was, or what the doctors prescribed) so you were desperate, you had a friend you trusted you said someone helped him, you believed him enough to go. given those two conditions im sure placebo could play into it, as well as possibly time coincidence. but like i said i dont know what the problem was “
    Key words being:
    “.. so you were desperate, you had a friend you trusted you said someone helped him, you believed him enough to go. given those two conditions im sure placebo could play into it,..”
    Citing the two conditions you mention that led you to your conclusion (“..I’m sure..”) sounds plausible enough, but only if they were the only relevant conditions. But there were other existing relevant conditions which I’ll get to in a moment.
    By citing the condition: “..you had a friend you trusted you said someone helped him, you believed him enough to go.”) you are quantifying (“.. you believed him enough..”) my friends credibility rating with me. Fair enough.
    But what you neglected to rate, and needed to rate – for fair, balanced & objective assessment – was the medical doctor & physiotherapist’s credibility ratings with me because here we’re comparing my attitude to two different competing parties ie mainstream scientific medicine & a pseudoscience practitioner.
    POINT: While there is no direct evidence of my credibility rating of the medical doctor & physiotherapist in my posts, if your reasoning’s were to be sound, surely it was incumbent upon you to check what they were. That you didn’t check, also corroborates/reinforces my point in section 3 (my reference to paragraph 24 and “suspicious”). of a pre-existing bias, in this case sufficient to include in your reasoning the two conditions that were compatible with you underpinning assumption, and ignore or innocently overlook what else was essential for objective reasoning.
    There are many possible mitigating circumstances about this neglect – for example that you had time constraints, distractions etc.
    The relevant conditions, other than the two you took into account are the credibility ratings I had in my mind about the medical doctor & physiotherapist and about which you did not inquire. My credibility rating of the medical doctor was much higher than for my friend, and of course the dubious pseudoscience practitioner, because she had previously successfully treated me for other ailments. She is still my medical doctor, seven years later.. I hadn’t consulted the physiotherapist before but was optimistic about the prospects of successful treatment, and she also had higher credibility (due to her formal qualifications) than my friend (who I’d only recently met) and the pseudoscience practitioner.
    Finally, two general points:
    1. I don’t ask or expect you or any reader to accept my anecdote on face value. That would be unreasonable as there are lots of stupid, delusional and dishonest people around – no doubt you’ve noticed – and as you do not know me you cannot be expected to know I’m not one of them.
    2. If you’re interested in finding out more about my view on the general subject of science and pseudoscience, and my (first experience posting on TDF) checkout my last two posts to Vlatko.

  447. Joël Cuerrier

    I'd agree with most everything, but the question of education is solely national. It's not something we can help with a transnational bureaucracy and subsidies. Nevermind the fact the US is broke and pay too much for transnational bureaucracies as it is. As I stated in a previous comment, the problem in the US is the quality of the education in your high schools is, on average, terrible. Especially the prototypical inner-city underfunded public school. Yet, this very issue is not even talked about in your upcoming elections, or only superficially by promoting higher education. When the worst problem is that many people in the US complete high school and yet, have learned almost nothing.

  448. robertallen1

    You begin with a statistical statement and then end with a disclaimer. Therefore, I take this to mean that the entire post is simply your opinion with no factual (statistical) accuracy implied. Fine.

  449. robertallen1

    What's your excuse?

  450. Phil Pilgrim99

    I’ve posted to Epicurus where you’ll find the substance of my case, but here are some clarifications that may be helpful in understanding where I’m coming from, and an indication of my approach.

    It's reasonable that you do not take my self-assessment at face value - for the reason you mention

    If you do not accept the overall anecdote about my experience, at face value, that's also fair & reasonable.

    But, to assume I attempt to demand that you & Epicurus, (& the possible/hypothetical other readers of all, of Epicurus's & my posts to each other) accept my conclusions (about poor comprehension & floored reasoning) on face value, is an error.

    Your assumption is an error because the scientific evidence required to validate the truth of my conclusions is & has been available to you since my: “And no, I'm not going to take the time to substantiate those claims.. “ post to Epicurus, and was available to you without me writing another word.

    This scientific evidence is accessible to the careful, clear thinking reader (of average – a guess i admit - intelligence) from the already written posts – all of which need to be scrutinized together - in their chronological order - to enable collection of all, the pieces of scientific evidence for synthesizing & proposition formulating.

    The scientific evidence can be acquired using two techniques together: Firstly. normal reasoning - using deduction, induction, processes of elimination, making connections across all data fields & levels for information, illuminating inference, imputation & implication, & so on & on …. and Secondly: deploying standard critical thinking methods, of which, identification & analysis of false and, underlying/underpinning, assumptions & agendas is especially productive in this operation.

  451. robertallen1

    About four hours ago, you wrote, "We're not talking 'prognostications' here, we're talking statistical population trends." Where's the disclaimer or is this just merely an opinion?

  452. Kateye70

    I wasn't advocating transnational bureaucracy; just saying that at one level or another those of us who benefit from other countries owe them an equal benefit. That's my personal belief.

    I also agree with you about the quality of education and have discussed it with friends and relatives who are or were high school teachers.

    I feel the entire political discourse has become nothing more than sound bites and deflection to keep anyone from looking carefully at the real issues. Facebook is rife with soundbites, most of which make the most ridiculous underlying assumptions (along the lines of the "so when did you stop beating your wife?" question) and tell people to 'like it if they agree.' /facepalm

    Disclaimer: All of the above are my own opinions not backed up by statistical analysis or research of any sort beyond my personal experience and education. I further understand that posts by Joel Cuerrier are stating his opinon, hopefully based on some sort of life experience which he is free to express at his own discretion.

  453. Giacomo della Svezia

    It doesn't have to be against the current knowledge and probably mostly is not, but more importantly: it could be against the current knowledge.
    If you meant to say it takes curiosity, imagination, critical (re-)thinking and guts (in that order), I agree with you.

  454. Giacomo della Svezia

    Some of the examples you supplied for "yesterday's science" wasn't science at all. Witches and homosexuals were prosecuted because of religious morals. Whatever was thought about these people had nothing to do with science by modern definitions.

    Most of the basic scientific facts are backed up by more evidence in time. Most known errors are found in details and scientists are often the first to admit it (the Pope on the contrary is "infallible"). Can you provide examples of important scientific facts that recently have been proved wrong?

  455. robertallen1

    You certainly have a point or two, but what are "important scientific facts" and what do you mean by "recently?"

  456. Giacomo della Svezia

    Anonymous claims that today's science may very well become "tomorrow old wives tale", and with that statement seems to be claiming that even things like quantum physics and evolution might turn out to be entirely wrong. I wonder what his assumptions are and what they are based upon.
    "Recently": since the beginning of this century, for example?

  457. Kateye70

    P.S. You just hit my last nerve. Welcome to ignore.

  458. Achems_Razor

    Your statistic link for the US did not work, so deleted it, to put rest of your comment on.

  459. Phil Pilgrim99

    Thank you for your reply. to ensure you notice my reply, I replied about an hour ago, it's displayed but it's not noted as being a reply to you.

  460. over the edge

    Joël Cuerrier
    "The main problem with atheism is actually that it lack a value system" that makes about as much sense as stating that the problem with people who don't believe in bigfoot is lack of a value system. atheism is a lack of belief in god claims nothing more. it has nothing to do with science or values/morals, i get my morals from my experiences,culture,family/friends and so on. claiming that we throw out " baby with the bath water." is ridiculous. how many of the values in the bible come from earlier sources? should we believe in ancient Greek myths because they put forward democracy? you are welcome to try to preserve your heritage and culture. but why can't others try to hold onto theirs or start new traditions? if you wish to get an understanding on the morals and values of an atheist try asking them instead of projecting what you think we believe on all of us?

  461. oQ

    He has the opinion that atheism lacks a value system, not all atheists.

    In my opinion atheism supports the non existence of a God, it claims that there never was a God and that we will never discover one.
    I don't support either atheism or theism, i prefer to stand with ism.

  462. over the edge

    whole there are some atheists that do "support the non existence of a God" many of us claim that we have not been presented with adequate proof to convince us. while some of us deny the claims put forward of others i suspect the majority here who are self proclaimed atheists do not deny all possibility. and as for myself i never claimed that a god could definitely not exist. to bring this back on topic i know you statement was an opinion reaching a conclusion based on faulty,inadequate,incomplete or stereotypical evidence or based on personal "belief" is not critical thinking

  463. oQ

    ? ?[ey-thee-iz-uhm] Show IPA

    the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

    disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.

    are you telling me that someone who supports atheism disbelieves in the existense of a god, of the past but is quite willing to believe in a god of the future?

  464. Kateye70

    I think Joel Cuerrier is making a valid point here.

    Theism is well-entrenched in human culture; churches provide social gathering places and a sense of belonging. Once one stops believing in a particular system of belief, where does one go to belong? There's no 'church of atheism' to visit.

    It's the feeling of community that is missed, and if you notice, churches (and the military) use the language of family to unite their followers.

    I like your idea of starting a new tradition, but what might that be? Any thoughts?

  465. over the edge

    "whole" should have been "while" sorry clumsy fingers today .
    your post went to moderation because of a link (i removed it as it went nowhere) but that is one definition and i think you will agree that if you wish to know what a person is thinking or believes asking them is the best way to find out

  466. over the edge

    i do have an answer but i feel that it will lead this discussion somewhere way off topic (my fault not yours). if you still wish an answer let me know and i will find an appropriate doc to address it on

  467. oQ

    That's what i did and you did not respond.

  468. over the edge

    sorry i thought i did in other posts. when it comes to atheism i do not accept others claims as they have not presented me with evidence i find convincing but i admit that the existence of a "god" could be true. as for my morals/values i developed or acquired them from personal experiences,the culture around me my mother (if i believed i would put her up for sainthood lol), and also through heredity and evolution. again i feel that i am on the edge of the topic here so if clarification is needed i will post on an atheism doc

  469. brianrose87

    My Siberin Husky has no beliefs in a God, nor does she disbelieve in a God, yet she shows numerous signs of "morality" when interacting with other dogs at the dog park.

    My Siberian Husky clearly lacks a value system that entertains a God, but her genetics clearly pre-select her for a sort of canine morality and etiquette.

    My dog does not believe in atheism, theism, or even ism. She simply is what she is. I know well enough to know this is what you mean by your statement "I prefer to stand with ism".

    The state that existed before we were, before we came to be, it has no "ism"; it existed without belief or concept. If we can reacquire that state we will experience peace.

    Please let me know if this description points towards the vision you're illuminating.

  470. Jack1952

    Its not the value system that atheism lacks. Its the social network. For many in the church it's not just Sunday worship, it's friendship, business, Friday at the movies, Saturday at the beach, sports, education, vacations. It is a support system that atheists do not have or even attempt to encourage. It's what separates them from the outsider. Meetings revolve around their oneness...their uniqueness. It is part of their strength but a weight on the backs of the members who are uncomfortable with the religious dogma.

  471. over the edge

    why can't sports,hobbies,clubs,work,family and so on fill any holes in someones network. and to say "a support system that atheists do not have or even attempt to encourage" i disagree look into atheist groups i think you would be surprised to see the volume available. now i do not belong to one as atheism makes up such a small part of who i am that there is no expectation or common interests. and to hold onto something out of fear or lack of (or perceived lack of) an alternative is not a good reason at all. name me a social change that turned out being for the good that didn't contain fear,possible loss of support,a change in values/morals and lack of well established support systems at its conception?

  472. robertallen1

    The century's still young. However, I doubt if quantum physics and evolution will be proved entire wrong, certainly refined, but that's about it.

  473. robertallen1

    Since when does a value system have to be associated with a belief in a supreme being? And saying atheists have no values is insulting and just plain ignorant.

    And no you haven't provided any real statistics, just bald statements with nothing to back them. And "I just know that this is very likely correct" does not cut it.

    In short, you have no valid points to make and really nothing to say.

  474. robertallen1

    Precisely and what bothers me is that someone like Kateye takes this person seriously.

  475. robertallen1

    You prefer to stand with ism. Now, what does that mean?

  476. robertallen1

    No, he's going further than that. He says quite plainly that atheists lack a value system, pure and simple, and as such he is no more than a religious ignoramus. So you can spare us the apologetics.

  477. robertallen1

    My red front macaw feels just like your Siberian husky whom I like already. Nice to hear from you.

  478. robertallen1

    Then let them be honest about it.

  479. robertallen1

    Good point, but as I told Jack, let them be honest about it. There is nothing wrong in saying I might not believe in the doctrine, but I like the bingo games.

  480. Joël Cuerrier

    The problem is not the complete lack of morals, it is the lack of common values. Or a "system" as I was saying. I'm not sure how you can fix that, except by turning the State into the new Church, and regulate good and bad, or desirable and undesirable behaviours? Else said, social engineering and dirigisme, already practiced by most western democracies. I'm just not sure it is sufficient, or even something anyone would want.

    And it has nothing to do with the obvious wrongs, like murder, incest and theft. It's more in the communal values. Or values that are more deeply entranched in our customs and traditions.

    I just don't see what will happen when atheism is dominant, as it already is in Scandinavia. Sweden now is bound to peripheral questions, like finding a word that mean neither "he" nor "she". I don't see how they are building a very "serious" society going down that path.

  481. robertallen1

    So now we have to have common values and now you're pulling for a theocracy to regulate our behavior--and of course Catholicism is to be at the heart of it just as in the Middle Ages.

    The Scandinavian countries are doing just fine and in many ways, they are ahead of the U.S. They have their problems as any country would--but they don't need your rotten religion to solve them. As a matter of fact, no one does.

    I despise everything you stand for.

  482. Jack1952

    "Atheism makes up such a small part of who i am that there is no expectation or common interests" That is exactly the reason why the social network of atheists does not exist. Non belief leads to non action.

    As an example hiding Easter Eggs. One does this because of the children involved who believe that the Easter Bunny has left the eggs for them. Take the children out of the equation and you will find few adults who hide Eggs on that Sunday. There is no reason to.

    The reason religious people are part of a social group is due to their belief in a common ideology. No one gets together to support one another in their non belief. Non belief cannot gather the passion that belief can.

  483. robertallen1

    Then why are there atheists conventions?

  484. Jack1952

    I wonder how the Swedes feel about being portrayed as a superficial nation. Actually, I know how I feel. As an atheist, I find it insulting that you believe the things that I hold dear is not a serious matter for me, my life or the lives of the people I care about.

    I find it strange that the millionaire Swedish athletes who come to the States and see how wonderful it is to live in "serious" country still return to retire in the "non serious" Sweden. You can take the Swede out of the peripheral but you can't take the peripheral out of the Swede.

  485. Jack1952

    Atheist conventions are not a common occurrence. As far as I know there has never been one in my hometown. Most conventions are concerned with the encroachment of theism in the political, educational and scientific arenas. If it wasn't for theism, the atheist would have nothing to talk about.

  486. oQ

    I have no clue what a dog's reality is.
    I can only know what my perception of our reality is, no one else's, nothing else's, only me among others.
    For you and Robert: ism is a short way for me to say, i am my reality.

  487. robertallen1

    What can you expect of a Catholic?

  488. robertallen1

    You Tube seems to have videos of a number of them.

  489. Epicurus

    "POINT 1: you imply that bias is conclusive, the conclusion in your words being: “no one would spend time and money on something they didnt think would work.”"

    it doesnt have to be conclusive. as long as there is some hope. I really hope you watched the 5 and 6 episodes on here.

    "If it’s “not likely”, what are the possible explanations for a person to make that statement ?"

    you could believe it to be true...but not likely be true.

    "Your use of the word “clearly” carries the unambiguous implication that you derived strong/convincing evidence from my statement that I “..don’t understand placebo.. “ What is the evidence ?"

    i have answered this many times.

    "PS i wanted to add, i accept that your experience happened and that would be more than enough for anyone to be suspicious about the success of it. so i dont blame you for that at all. and everything else you said in your post seems absolutely rational."

    this sentence meant that if the experience as you report it happened to me i would also think there might be something to this whole chiropractor stuff...however i wouldnt jump to conclusions and would have no clear way to show causation.

    "But what you neglected to rate, and needed to rate – for fair, balanced & objective assessment – was the medical doctor & physiotherapist’s credibility ratings with me because here we’re comparing my attitude to two different competing parties ie mainstream scientific medicine & a pseudoscience practitioner."

    this is very true, and the problem may have fixed itself around the same time you went to the chiropractor. maybe its not placebo but a case of correlation not equaling causation. either way this is what the video even states in parts 5 and 6. one should be ready to come up with null hypotheses.

    Dont think im getting on you because i think you are stupid or anything. i can tell that is not the case. just trying to guide a fellow critical thinker down the correct path.

    I can see how my first post to you would have put a sour taste in your mouth about me, and i apologize.

  490. RikG01

    Athesits are turning into "islamists"? I'd like to see your evidence for that please, since atheism is spreading in the UK according to the last census. And atheism doesn't lead to religion, seriously, what are you smoking? Critical thinking allows people to evaluate religion on it's evidence. It's a mechanism to protect oneself from being persuaded to follow supernatural claims, not a mechanism of conversion. If you started out atheist and became religious, then you were not excersing critical thinking. You were clearly lacking the information to make decisions or had some other need which was not being fulfilled. This is of course, not a problem with atheism, but a problem with the way you ran and continue to run your life.

    I didn't insult the pope off-hand, I was making a point, but since you bring it up, no the pope definitely is not important in our times. He is a very evil little man and I can say this because I know his capabilities.

    Ratzinger is extremely intelligent, very highly educated and supposedely fluent in 16 languages. This means that there is no excuse at all for the cascade of deliberate falsehoods and pure viciousness he has spread since being cardinal.

    Ratzinger lied about contraception, being one of the first major voices of our time at the vatican to denounce it as sin. He's intelligent enough to know what damage this would do, ergo evil. He then spread lies about condoms, claiming that they had "pores" which let the HIV virus through, again he's way too intelligent to believe this himself, he knew it was untrue. His decisions have literally caused the slow, agonising deaths of millions of people worldwide. Ergo evil.

    Then there's the fact that he oversaw policy on dealing with rapist and child-rapist priests. His answer, keeping the survivors silent, keeping it away from the authorities, moving the priests into other areas, where they were free to abuse again. Evil.

    This disgusting troll lied about neo-paganism, in a way that was sure to create danger and hatred against modern pagans, by claiming that Hitler was a neo-pagan. Entirely untrue as we know hitler was catholic. Yet again, Ratzinger must have known he was lying, afterall, he was in the hitler youth movement. Evil. How can inciting hatred, let alone hatred from false pretense be anything but evil?

    Let's not forget that one of his earliest acts as pope, was denounce Spain for allowing Gays adoption rights. He called it moral violence.

    And whether or not you believe Islam to be worse is irrelevant. That other extremist groups do evil, does not make it ok for the vatican to do evil. You're drawing on yet another logical fallacy.

  491. Kateye70

    I'm curious about atheists converting to Islam, myself. I understand the rise in radical muslims in european countries, but would assume that more to be a factor of immigration, birth rates and closed communities, myself.

    I can understand Joel Cuerrier's return to catholicism, since it is something I wrestled with for a *very* long time .He is correct when he says that there are community and tradition elements in religions. Its a personal choice he made, and he seems comfortable with being part of a tradition even if he doesn't believe in it. If the church community he is part of accepts that type of 'catholicism' then its a valid choice for him, imho.

    The older I've gotten, the less willing I am to believe that presumably celibate old men who shun women as equals have the ability to understand, much less dictate, our daily lives. I would have much more respect for the vatican if it opened the priesthood and religious political track to women. It might help them make better moral choices, too. This, in my view, marginalized catholicism as a valid religious possibility.

    I never followed the current pope's background as closely as you seem to have, but what little I have heard of his pronouncements have made me very uncomfortable and reinforced my unwillingness to support him even by association.

    Although, from what I understand the vatican is essentially writing off europe and america, where the laity are too well-educated and ready to push back, and focusing on third-world converts. The types of policies you detailed are cynical but effective there.

  492. Kateye70

    Actually, I am interested. Atheism as a world view is a non-community, since the only thing one has in common is a negative. But if one is non-theist, where does one go for community? If you have a better doc to discuss this on, please do.

  493. Lakhotason

    Why doesn't someone just google "church-going atheist scientists". There have been two studies on the matter recently.

  494. oQ

    the shopping mall.

  495. robertallen1

    Why would a non-theist want to seek the company of other non-theists?

  496. robertallen1

    We have no responsibility to other countries period and no, this is not a right wing statement because I'm against all the invasions and bombings which have occurred during my lifetime as well as the attempts of all the administrations to dictate to other countries and interfere in their politics with disastrous results.

    I went to college during the Viet-Nam "war." And while I despised our involvement in it and realized that our government was deluding us into thinking that it was all about freedom, even accepting the government's position, I would never have gone, no matter what, because I don't feel I should have to put my life on the line for some peasant halfway around the world--or for that matter anything else unless I choose to do so. Along this line, you might want to read about the New York draft riots during the Civil War.

    We have enough problems of our own and enough to live down without taking on the role of the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages as the world's policemen and morality and government makers.

  497. lakhotason

    Go to you tube and watch "Why Atheists Go To Church" Rev. Marlin Lavanhar. Very interesting and quite enlightening. The doc is about twenty minutes.

  498. Kateye70

    Oddly, I didn't read Joel's posts as saying philosophy is more of a science than medicine; rather that many fields of study such as philosophy are now being regarded as 'soft' sciences and pulled into that arena rather than staying where (I thought he meant) they belonged, which is *not* science. Perhaps I misread or misunderstood.

    The only point I was trying to make about churches and community is that when one moves to a new town, one of the fastest way to make new friends is to attend a church. Of course, one would have to *want* to be friends with the people who go there, but in many places, its most of the people who live nearby (or at least used to be, depending on where you live). If you're a pragmatist and just looking to make social contacts, it's a no-brainer.

    If one is looking for other types of community, its not quite so easy to find large gatherings of like-minded people. Oddly, one group that has a built-in community are LGBT. In the old days, they had to be very socially savvy in order to connect up with one another; they also have a built-in network between cities. I know about this from a gay relative; no matter what city he's moved to, there's always someone who knows someone he knows.

    As over the edge pointed out, this discussion about community might not be appropriate for this doc thread; I'm willing to move it elsewhere.

  499. Kateye70

    "That's what she said" ;)

    Exactly my point. What's there except a non-belief? So again, where does one find community?

  500. lakhotason

    "the existence of a 'god' could be true"

    Excellent point. No scientist can ever say there is no god. What that scientist can say is there is no evidence of the existence of a god. Two very different statements.

  501. robertallen1

    And my point is why does a non-believer need it. I wonder how many people go quietly through life as non-believers, never going to church or anything like that, never seeking out other non-believers, never expressing their non-belief and yet do just fine.

  502. Kateye70

    Churches are visible forms of community. That's the only point I've been making. You can't deny that many many communities in the past have been founded around churches; Europeans sent religious dissidents to then-newly-discovered lands centuries ago. Its why we still have so many areas in the US that are christian fundamentalist; they are carrying on the traditions of their community founders. Read "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America" for historical perspective on the effect of initial immigrant populations on their communities and regions, well past the time when they were outnumbered by other immigrants.

    One can indeed go 'quietly through life as non-believer' but that doesn't answer the need for community. And I for one will not pretend to believe something I don't for the sake of 'fitting in.'

  503. Kateye70

    Thanks for the link. I watched it, and liked the inclusiveness (I've known other unitarians in the past). If I were looking for a god-themed community, it would be fine to go to such a church, but since I really don't need the 'god' part I know that after a while I would become uncomfortable with the constant verbal reminders of something I don't believe in...

  504. robertallen1

    Of course they're visible forms of community and of course many communities, states even, were founded around churches (religion). Now if only their members would just stay within their community as far as their church (religion), everything would be fine, but there are all too many, such as your disgusting protege, Joel Cuerrier, who stand opposed to this, as evidenced in his latest post.

    Actually Christian/Biblical fundamentalism as we now know it started in the deep south. Try Ronald J. Numbers, "The Creationists."

    Like you, I don't pretend to believe something for the sake of fitting in, as you can probably tell by now.

  505. Vlatko


    There couldn't be evidence for the existence of something that has no definition in the first place. What is God? Tell me, so I can start looking for it. It is an imaginary "thing."

    It is the same with my "Unicorn that lives on Titan." If I ask a scientist about it what do you think he will answer to me. "We don't have the evidence for that???" I don't think so.

    Scientists also don't have evidence for the: Spaghetti monster, Loch Ness, Abtu and Anet, Alicanto, Burak, Chinese Phoenix, Fastitocalon, Upland Trout... etc.

    Why do you think the word God is any more special than the ones above.

    For the vast majority of the scientists the idea of a creator, intelligent design, fine tuning, God, is completely unacceptable and silly. If you ask them about the 'existence of a God', while trying to be polite they might dance around the question, but behind doors they will burst into laughter.

    Further more, all the data so far (evolution, quantum mechanics, etc) points out that there is no intelligent force behind the universe, whatsoever.

  506. lakhotason

    The reason why these atheists attend church is not to participate in a God-themed community. Rice University and the University of Buffalo researched the reason why atheist scientists attend church (up to 17%). Elaine Ecklund of RU states "that many see it as part of their scientific identity" and "they want their children to be free thinkers....".

    I find that very interesting.

  507. lakhotason

    Can you state there is no God? If you do then you will have to prove a negative. Good luck with that.

    I like Barry Stroud's thoughts on the subject of certainty and science.

    "Scientific knowledge may not involve a claim to certainty. Maintaining skepticism means that a scientist will never be absolutely certain when they(sic) are correct and when they are not correct. It is thus an irony of proper scientific method that one must doubt even when correct"

  508. Vlatko


    It is not my job to prove that there is no God. It is your Job to prove that there is God. Good luck with that. I'm shocked and a little bit disappointed that you don't understand this.

    Again with the quote mining. That quote only shows the beauty of the science and the method within. It has absolutely nothing to do with any imaginary being, God included.

  509. robertallen1

    The thing about some is that they say they support the basics of the documentary, EXCEPT WHEN APPLIED TO THEM--and several of Iakhotason's posts, including this one, are prime examples.

    Am having problems with discus changing me from a subscriber on this thread to a non-subscriber and automatically logging me out. I hope you are not paying for this program. Can you assist?

  510. Vlatko


    What you and Kateye70 are talking about applies to one country only, and that is USA. And probably not the whole USA, but only heavily "religion infected" areas. There is a great amount of social pressure in religious favor. I bet 90% of the atheist go to church, to avoid stigmatization.

    The most hated and distrusted minority in USA are... (drum roll)... atheists.

    Europe is a completely different picture, China too, Russia,...

    See what happens when you apply critical thinking.

  511. Kateye70

    For the record, Joel Cuerrier is not my "protege." I don't think that acknowledging someone and attempting to understand them automatically confers the role of mentor. Nor do I think he really needs one, either; he seems perfectly capable of speaking for himself, even in a second language.

  512. Vlatko

    No I'm not paying. Thanks God (pun intended).

    Log out, clear the cache and the cookies, close the browser. Start, login, see what happens.

  513. over the edge

    the answer is posted on "Unrepentant: Kevin Annett and Canada’s Genocide" by the title you might guess why i did not want to give my response here. the post i was referring to was the implied superiority of the Quebec/Christian value system and my specific reasons for not supporting that claim. not atheism.

  514. lakhotason

    I never said I wish to prove the existence of God. And it isn't quote mining. Would you rather I said I like Barry Stroud's thoughts on the subject and leave it at that or give Mr. Stroud's thoughts so we all understand what I'm talking about.

  515. lakhotason

    And do you have any evidence to support your assertion that it only applies to one country?

    And did you read the research of RU and UofB?

  516. robertallen1

    So why do believers feel the need for a sodality founded on their beliefs? Is it because they are so unsure of them that they seek the support of others?

  517. Achems_Razor

    Don't know about the applies thing, but the US has the largest Christian population in the world.


  518. lakhotason

    Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that atheists go to church to avoid stigmatization or "only in heavily infected areas"?

  519. Kateye70

    True. My comment about going to a god-themed community really only applied to myself; my tolerance for certain things is severely limited =/

  520. Kateye70

    I don't think its just 'believers.' We are, after all, social beings. It's who we are as a species. Religion is a clever method of social control (churches always have leaders, even the ones most benign in intent); that has been my opinion for a long time.

  521. Vlatko

    Hahaha... I hope you now realize why previously @Robert was asking you to prove your claims with data. You said to him to use Goole. Should I say the same to you? Nah I'll just spend 5 more minutes from my time.

    The evidence is very simple and it is in your comment. Rice University and the University of Buffalo are AMERICAN institutions. Their survey was conducted on 275 scientists at 21 "elite" research universities in the United States. Rev. Marlin Lavanhar lives in USA and speaks about American situation.

    As I was saying your claims apply only to USA. Period.

    Further more you've missed (I don't know if deliberately) some quotes from the survey. Let me help you with that:

    "...about one out of five scientists who describe themselves as either atheists or agnostics -- actually go to church, although not too often, and not because they feel a spiritual yearning to join the faithful. More likely, it's because of the kids... many atheists want their children exposed to religion so that they can make up their own minds on what to believe..."

    Bonus evidence that indirectly implies the results of the survey.

    1. The most hated and distrusted minority in USA are atheists.
    2. US is 5th most religious country in the world.

    I'm sorry but for the last two you'll have to use Google if you want to verify them. I can't do all the homework for you.

  522. lakhotason

    Just read an interesting article from Sweden. 15% of Swedish churchgoers say they are atheist and 25% say they are agnostic. I don't think you can now say this is a "one country" thing and it is surely not a "religiously infected"area.

    You may, if you wish, google "swedish churches and atheism" to find the article.

  523. lakhotason

    Understand completely.

  524. Vlatko


    Did you read the whole article. The majority of those 15% who said they're atheists are KIDS, who go in church with their parents, and that is a byproduct of the secularization in Sweden. The younger the members, the more likely they are to be atheists or agnostics.

    So it is not the same case as with US, where scientists deliberately go to church. It is completely different, yet you want to portray it as the same phenomenon.

  525. robertallen1

    And that's just what Richard Dawkins says: There's not been enough evidence to convince him; therefore, he does not believe.

  526. lakhotason

    Not didn't miss anything. You would do well to read my post concerning Swedish churchgoers.

    And interestingly enough that has been my reason for not posting my "evidence" concerning the things I say. It is there on the internet if one wishes to read it. I usually say "google" this or google that. I'm glad you agree it is not my job to do another's research for them.

    Also, did not the researcher say the things I attributed to her? I used those quotes in responding to Kateye. Nothing waas taken out of context.

    Just so everyone understands I did suggest that someone google "church-going atheist scientists" FOUR HOURS ago. So I don't think it is quite appropriate to criticize me for not presenting my evidence.

  527. lakhotason

    Also, there is heavy construction on my street and my internet connection is spotty. If I don't respond that's probably the reason.

  528. lakhotason

    No, I trust your research. I have no reason to suspect you would lie about it. After all, we are only having a discussion not submitting research papers.

  529. Vlatko


    Yes you've missed this part. Let me repeat myself: ...they go to church, although not too often, and not because they feel a spiritual yearning to join the faithful.

    I've read your post about Swedish churchgoers. You should have read my replay to it before asking me this. It is already answered.

    You say: "I'm glad you agree it is not my job to do another's research for them." Right, so why are you asking me to do your research for you?

    But fortunately I didn't refer you to Google, I explained my evidence. And yet you didn't say anything about it. I wonder why?

  530. lakhotason

    Now Vlatko, that is dishonest because the article (at least the one I'm reading) does not say the majority of the 15% are kids. It says the younger the member the more likely the member is atheist. Nowhere does my article say kids nor does it give the ages of those who claim to be atheist or agnostic.

    Maybe I shouldn't be so trusting of you.

    Note: I'm reading The Local, Sweden's News in English dtd 15 Jun 11.

  531. lakhotason

    Look at my response right below.

  532. lakhotason

    I see you say "he does not BELIEVE."

  533. Vlatko


    Don't divert.

    First do you agree that the USA research is only applicable for USA, given my evidence I presented to you?

    Second, it is true that the Swedish article nowhere says kids, and does not states ages. However it is sure that the majority of those 15% are younger members. You're nitpicking, because the real point is that the Swedish phenomenon is completely different from the US one, and you rushed to present it as the same. In Sweden younger members in church are becoming atheists because of the secularization, and on the other hand the scientists in US are deliberately going to the church. Two completely different things.

    As for the trust, I don't want it. What I wish is you doing your homework.

  534. lakhotason

    I never asked you to do my research Vlatko. I merely state that is where I got my information. Never said you must research it for yourself. That's up to you.

    And what does your first paragraph have to do with anything I said? I never said they went every Sunday. And if you look the only reasons I quoted for going to church were the two the researcher mentioned. Most peculiar Vlatko.

  535. Vlatko

    No you look.

  536. robertallen1

    You're right. It is a means of social control of its members and of anyone else it can lay its hands on, a mephitic type of control espoused by your disgusting protege, whereas, for example, a bowling club which can be considered a community of interest or the National Center for Science Education, is not.

  537. Vlatko

    Jesus Christ... yes you asked. You asked how do I know if the survey applies to one country. The data was in your article.

    Also you asked how do I know that atheists go to church to avoid stigmatization.

  538. Drdocwilmot

    Production values R nil... if you begin your film with an illegible survey page, U need to go back to the drawing board.

  539. Vlatko


    Since you edited the comment I have to answer you once more.

    When you quote out of article you have to quote it in context. Do you understand that? The whole context changes the argument.

    When one reads the article it is clear that they go to church very rarely, they still don't believe in God, and they go because of their children. One more thing that changes the game is the sample which is only 275 scientists. I was just trying to point that out without spelling it out.

  540. lakhotason

    I merely stated where I got my information. You are the one who said it applied to one country and I did the research to show you that wasn't true and told you where I found that information.

    That questioning you about your evidence is just turning the tables on you. A sort of tongue-in-cheek response to the flak I'm always getting.

  541. Vlatko


    "tongue-in-cheek response to the flak"

    So basically you're trolling. You knew the answers but you decided to "play a little bit." Isn't that dishonest?

  542. lakhotason

    I'm not nitpicking. You said the article says kids and it does not. How is that nitpicking? And the younger the member does not imply kids. It only means what it says. The younger the member the more likely to be atheist which could (and I'm not saying it absolutely does) mean a 50 y/o is more likely to be atheist than a 60 y/o.

  543. Vlatko


    Jesus... did you read the whole comment. Read it and get back.

  544. lakhotason

    Do my homework? Remember it was me that found the article. Again, you are the one who said it was a one country thing. I and you both know exactly what we are talking about here.

  545. Vlatko

    Hahaha... Yes we do know, at least I know what I'm talking about. Let me remind you what you've said to @Robert when he asked you to back up your statistical data.

    Look RobertAllen, I am having a conversation with Dewflirt, not submitting a goda***d research paper for peer review. You can either ignore the conversation, do you own research or stfu.

    Should I have responded to you the same way when you asked me to back up my data about the one country thing and stigmatization?

    And you still deflect and divert. The facts stay the same:

    1. USA survey is only for the territory of USA.
    2. Atheist are stigmatized and most hated in USA.

  546. Kateye70

    robert, stop it. How can I respond to anything of value you have to say, when I have to wade through cr*p like "...your disgusting protege..." to get to it?

    That is deliberately provoking language, even though I clearly said in an earlier post that, and I quote,:

    "For the record, Joel Cuerrier is not my 'protege.' I don't think that acknowledging someone and attempting to understand them automatically confers the role of mentor. Nor do I think he really needs one, either; he seems perfectly capable of speaking for himself, even in a second language." (quoted in entirety for clarity)

    So, why do you do this? Even though you often make good points, you cloud them by deliberate mischaracterisations. If your intent is to stop all conversation in its tracks, you're doing an excellent job.

  547. lakhotason

    Vlatko, I've stumbled across an article from the Guardian which I believe makes the both of us sound a little foolish and wide of the mark.

    Problem is I don't know how to put a link up, largely because I never do.

    If you're interested I can tell you where to find it. Otherwise it would be fruitless for me to continue this discussion (and that includes anyone pro or con)

  548. lakhotason

    Please Vlatko I said it was tongue-in-cheek.


  549. Vlatko


    The discussion is fruitless long time ago. Do as you wish.

  550. lakhotason


  551. robertallen1

    How about non-existence? In other words, does non-existence exist? Sound a little like navel contemplation, doesn't it or mental masturbation gone horribly awry?

  552. robertallen1

    Right. As you say, no one KNOWS, not even the Pope.

  553. robertallen1

    Have either you or Iakhotason every read Darryl Huff's book, "How to Lie with Statistics?"

    By the way, I've noticed lately that there have been citations of sources.

  554. robertallen1

    and Vlatko

    Some surveys say that more people are turning towards religion and some say more people are turning away from it. I make no assertion one way or the other. However, if the former is true, people are becoming more dumbed down and if the latter, more educated.

  555. robertallen1

    Fine. Would sympathizer be more accurate? I really hope not.

  556. robertallen1

    Why bring in Barry Stroud at all?

  557. robertallen1

    You obviously have not read my later post in which I asked if sympathizer were more accurate and in which I stated that I certainly hoped not.

  558. Achems_Razor

    Nonexistence? ...(Null physics), Def: The study and quantification of the relationship between the physical state of existence and nonexistence.


  559. robertallen1

    Thanks. Will read.

  560. Kateye70

    You don't have to associate us at all. He is perfectly capable of standing on his own, as am I. Agreeing with someone on one point or other doesn't make them a BFF.

  561. Kateye70

    Either I missed it or it showed up after I replied. I've since replied to that post as well =)

  562. dmxi

    i'm impressed by your calmness whilst being played by an arrogant prat !

  563. Kateye70

    Am I being played? Or.... (^_-)

  564. robertallen1

    It's been on more than one point. For what it's worth, you seem to be the only one so far on this thread who gives him any credence. Just what does BFF stand for? I really have no idea.

  565. robertallen1

    Not by me you're not.

  566. oQ

    I agree certainly, "God could be true"!, Azilda plays with that phrase in many of her posts. Perhaps we are no longer talking about atheism but agnostism or ism.
    Most declared atheists i have talked to, (or written to) seem to agree that the concept of a God before or after today is an impossibility.According to an atheist, Life does not need (include) the immaterial, life can be explained via it's natural, physical reality only, not it's non corporeal aspect.

  567. oQ

    You are describing an atheist scientist, keep in mind that there are thousands of people coming out of universities every year and a large percentage are theist or agnostic.
    The non corporeal aspect is being scientifically researched as we write, by someone or some many.

  568. robertallen1

    Is the word theory being used scientifically here?

    Your science background is more extensive than mine. How do you feel about null physics. Sounds like more navel contemplation to me.

  569. robertallen1

    If by non-corporeal, you mean supernatural, no way. Science deals only with the natural.

  570. oQ

    It is inevitably someone's turn with Robert. You are the bone this time... by some of your earlier exchanges, i would have never thought it'd be your turn so soon.

  571. Kateye70

    I'm willing to listen and consider. I heard some interesting points along the way, regardless of anyone else's opinion of them. I do try look for the gold. If I only ever responded the way you think I should, would you still respect me in the morning? I think not.

    BFF = Best Friends Forever. I guess you don't follow Paris Hilton and her, you know, BFF's.

  572. Kateye70

    I don't mind. =)

  573. robertallen1

    I look for gold too, but not in a cess pool.

    You're right I don't follow Paris Hilton. I have too much respect for my intelligence to do so. I'm surprised you do.

  574. Epicurus

    "The main problem with atheism is actually that it lack a value system and that it doesn't promote any sort of unified culture, nor sense of belonging to anything greater than oneself. Thus, atheists don't reproduce, due to their inherent nihilism."

    all atheism means is that someone doesnt believe in a god....there are many many other means of obtaining a value system, culture, and sense of belonging.

    I think you have a completely false view of what atheism is.

  575. Epicurus

    actually the church community ostracizes the individual. however there are many many social gathering places for people without religion. i dont think he is making a valid point here.

    once again, atheists only dont believe in a god. they could have a sense of community with their star trek fan club or something stu*id like that. they could find community in people who share their interests.

    i dislike the idea of an atheist tradition....i dont even like the fact that we are being labeled based on what we DONT believe.

  576. Epicurus

    lol im getting so confused.

    these people seem to think atheists are loners who have no friends, families, interests, and live in a cave hanging out on the internet.

  577. robertallen1

    Perhaps it's more accurate to say that you are being labeled based on what you're supposed to believe.

  578. robertallen1

    Suggest changing "people" to "religees."

  579. over the edge

    not only do i completely agree but the discussion that followed saddens me. i thought more people understood atheism. apparently i was wrong. by the way do you still use your skype(i have some non topic questions if you can help out?)

  580. Epicurus

    "Sweden now is bound to peripheral questions, like finding a word that mean neither "he" nor "she". I don't see how they are building a very "serious" society going down that path."

    are you implying that this is all sweden is doing? do you think finding a gender ambiguous term is pointless?

    Also there are plenty of philosophical means to create value systems without religion.

  581. robertallen1

    I think we're getting a little too concerned with off-topic v. on-topic. If the questions are provocative and interesting, I for one would like to see them.

  582. Epicurus

    atheists have many OTHER things in common.

    wow. this is getting very ignorant here.

  583. over the edge

    if this is pertaining to my post to epic it is a question i wish not to share with the community at large. if it is concerning my post to kat it was something i wished not to start a fight about and felt i made a decision that selfishly benefited myself. as i wanted to keep discussing the topic i was on here (that failed terribly)

  584. slpsa

    I, like you, dislike the idea of being in any sort of preconceived category, because I do not believe in sky fairies. If I am to be categorized based on my beliefs, then I fit into the Science and Math category. Belief in sky fairies ought not to be on the table here. We should just change the darn rules on them. We can do that? Can't we?

  585. robertallen1

    You haven't failed miserably; certain others have.

  586. Achems_Razor

    Do not know if the word theory is being used scientifically on Null physics, has not been peer reviewed as yet could be hypothesis only that is why the question mark after "Nonexistence?" on my previous post. I take Null physics with a grain of salt, have to use critical thinking on that.

    Hawking has said the universe came from absolutely nothing sans any gods in his book "the grand design", a lot of other sources, do not have enough room or time to name all. Brian Greene in his books about quantum physics and string theory give a good outline on how probabilities come into the fold to form our and other multiverses from the quantum jitters as he calls it, from the quantum foam.

  587. robertallen1

    Which rules?

  588. Achems_Razor

    Paris Hilton? Argh! but Lady Gaga on the other hand?

  589. robertallen1

    Actually, this started off in response to Vlatco's statement about God. "There couldn't be evidence for the existence of something that has no definition in the first place." So I was just wondering if non-existence applied and after going to the link you posted, I still haven't the faintest idea. It seems that the first thing the critical thinker must do is try to figure out what he is talking about and from what I've read on this site, nobody seems to have done this. But again, I didn't know what I was talking about either when I posed the question in a moment of facetiousness.

  590. robertallen1

    Just as disgusting and idiotic. I'll take Lizzy Borden or Ruth Snyder any day.

  591. Achems_Razor

    Yes, I understand,... in a nutshell, my view of nonexistence is there is no nonexistence, to view nonexistence a person has to be cognizant in nonexistence, void, oblivion, so since that is impossible to be alive in nonexistence, void, oblivion, my view is that there is "always something" instead of "nothing."

  592. robertallen1

    So then you seem to agree with Vlatco or do you? I'm not taking a stance on way or the other.

  593. Achems_Razor

    To each his own, lol

  594. Kateye70

    well, that was a leap of logic...I was just surprised you *don't*! o.O

  595. Achems_Razor

    What did Vlatko have to say about what we are discussing? can't find the post. sorry I found it, yes I agree with Vlatko.

  596. robertallen1

    Logic has nothing to do with it, but taste does.

  597. Kateye70

    I do agree its weird being categorized by a non-belief. I was just asking the question about creating community, since that is what religion has been used for. If not religion, then what? As I mentioned before, the military is another way to create community.

  598. robertallen1

    Anything can be used to create community--as long as a group of people buy into it.

  599. Kateye70

    Does Lady Gaga have BFF's? Are you one?

  600. Kateye70

    Yes, but what is consistently used across most cultures? Some form of ritualized spiritual belief (maybe a clumsy way to put it...but religion, in a word).

  601. Achems_Razor

    I ain't telling!

  602. robertallen1

    Doesn't say much about people, does it?

  603. Epicurus

    we can create community for its own inherent benefits i think. just realizing that we are social, we like to get along with one another, it makes life easier, and we all pretty much have the same goal.

    what gets in the way of this community is other communities that seem to want to single themselves out and segregate into little in and out groups.

    i completely agree with what you are saying about the benefits of religion. I think that is the main reason religion started and continues. because of the evolutionary benefits it gave our earlier ancestors. i just feel we are outgrowing that if we want to continue progressing. and i dont feel it is NECESSARY for the benefits it has given.

  604. robertallen1

    It doesn't say much for mankind that this community came about through an elaborate con job.

  605. Epicurus

    lol i see what you're saying but it goes a little deeper than that.

    its just the brains susceptibility to superstition. look up "hyperactive agency detection device" very interesting stuff.

  606. robertallen1

    It's a shame that for all too many this "hyperactive agency detection device" is all too hyperactive. The best cure is education, not wilful ignorance.

  607. Kateye70

    I do agree. I'd just like to come up with an epic idea that replaces the social institution aspect of it, although I'm afraid that anything else would be just as likely to be abused, since I think hierarchy and therefore power struggles will ensue.

  608. robertallen1

    You're right. That's why I'm not a joiner--actually I'm a member of just one organization.

  609. slpsa

    The rules of the world!!!! Pinky and I, aim to take it over, expunge all the religees, and start all over again. So we can put all that nonsense behind us. I dare to dream. Meh. I see this has become a hot topic. I'm having one of those days, I cannot begin to even want to be serious about anything. Got some kush, aint partook in about 3 years { drug testing for work} on holidays, no sky fairy people can ruin my karma today. I want happy joy joy thoughts. How about the rest of you? Are we HAPPY? :)

  610. slpsa

    On another note. I love people. Even sky fairy people. That is good karma. Thank you. No applause necessary.

  611. robertallen1

    Just had a birthday. So how happy can one be about that?

    Which do you think is most wonderful, Green's Theorem, Stokes' Theorem, La Grange multipliers or L'Hospital's Rule?

    P.S. Who's Pinky?

  612. Kateye70

    It just says we're people. We do what we do.

    Religions create a focal point. I'm guessing shared rituals have taken place since there were campfires to dance around.

    So far no one's come up with a powerful alternative. I don't think bowling leagues are gonna cut it, especially since all the alleys seem to be closing down.

  613. robertallen1

    Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not here.

    However, just get rid of religion and I'll bet a viable alternative will be found.

  614. oQ

    I suppose, very happy to have made it one more year.
    let me guess the 18th?

  615. slpsa

    Who is Pinky? LOL. I swear some people were never kids, ya were born reading calculus books. Pinky is the sidekick, of the world famous Brain. The plan is to take over the world. C'mon man! As for all four of those choices, I have delved into them somewhat, but only out of professional curiosity, and only have grazed and perused many publications that deal with that type of mathematics. The majority of those 4 choices are not applicable to most of the work I do, although some basic principles apply, they are about as deep as you get with math. My head is full of mechanical engineering concepts, and it has been for most of my life. I have about 4 weeks a year to relax, I have been out of the reading game for a while, with work taking up all my time these days.

  616. oQ

    so you agree with me, an atheist would say God did not exist and God will not exist but an agnostic would say...i don't know for sure?

  617. over the edge

    are you ignoring the #2 of the definition you provided? "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings" atheism is not limited to those that claim god does not exist. atheism and agnosticism are answers to two different questions. the first concerning belief and the second concerns knowledge and a person can simultaneously be either one of (gnostic/agnostic) and (theist/atheist) at the same. but as we interact with the world it is either approached as god exists or god does not exist. an atheist would never wonder wwgd (what would god do) where a theist would. so i will ask are your day to day decisions affected by your "spiritual" beliefs? or do you approach the world as an atheist?

  618. robertallen1

    Let me guess, you're a fool.

  619. robertallen1

    I don't know how deep these theorems are, but they are certainly imaginative, creative and art forms in and of themselves.

  620. robertallen1


  621. robertallen1

    Wrong as usual. There's also the "I don't care."

  622. over the edge

    i can live with that answer

  623. Phil Pilgrim99

    Answers for Over the Edge
    ! Chiropractic is not science according to the definition of science - but it worked for me. I don't want to be an advertisement for the industry (as I said in a recent post - I consult my medical practitioner first) but accusations that I'm ignorant about of placebo, that my behavior is suspicious, my claims have "..the mark of a fraud & trickster", that my account is invalid because I haven't presented "solid scientific evidence", or for that matter that I'm susceptible to "conspirative" reasoning, are just amusing & a little frustrating.

    Are there many charlatans in that industry ? yes !, how many people suffer injury & pain due to these criminals who also steal their money ? thousands, maybe millions, & it's heartening to see that the BCA is being outed. Are there very many charlatans in mainstream medicine ? yes. How many lethally incompetent medical practitioners are there ? way too many (I nearly died due to one). Do I condemn & dismiss all medical practitioners ? No. Some chiropractors are charlatans, do I condemn all of them ? No ... for reasons which I hope are obvious.
    2. No. Absolutely not. But while personal experience is not "scientific evidence" it's no grounds to dismiss such experience as invalid.
    3. Yes.

    Apologies for the delay in answering your questions. I got distracted by trying to sort out some prejudiced & dogmatic ("scientific") zealots posting on this site. That won't happen again, and as a new poster in this venue, have learned from your example that asking questions is the better way. Thankyou

  624. robertallen1

    Perhaps deep down inside, most people do. Can't you imagine going through your quotidian existence constantly asking yourself, "What will Mr. G. think?" Then you have to ask yourself "Which Mr. G.?" And then you have to ask yourself, "Did I get it right?" and on and on. Then before you know it, you can't even have a bowel movement without going through some type of theistic trauma. It just isn't worth it.

  625. over the edge

    Phil Pilgrim99
    1. i am glad that you know it is not science. and as long as nobody makes claims that are not backed up and could cause others harm. i have no issue with you spending your own money seeking this treatment. did i make any of those accusations? i did imply that you were being closed minded but nothing more
    2. perfect
    3. perfect
    thank you while i still don't 100% agree i think that this has been beaten enough for now. by the way welcome and be warned no matter what side you come down on for almost any topic you will be tasked with defending claims and stances. sometimes by less than polite people (sometimes it is me). back up your claims,defend your stance,explain yourself well, be honest and ignore the rest. let the games begin

  626. over the edge

    but many do and what a waste of time

  627. Phil Pilgrim99

    Thanks for your answers, I'll have a think about them & get back

  628. Phil Pilgrim99

    Thanks for the advice, and sorry, you did not make any of those accusations.
    I realised that error as soon as my post was displayed and would've corrected it immediately but haven't figured out how to edit a post once posted - can you give me a clue where to find out how to ?

  629. over the edge

    Phil Pilgrim99
    in order to edit a post just click the "edit " button below the post you wish to edit (beside the reply button) then click save edit after changes are made. also try reading the comment policy (not that you said anything wrong) to avoid any issues or answer any questions in the future

  630. Normskis69

    A few of the questions in the survey were not worded very well, for example 'The universe began with a huge explosion.'

    The universe did not begin with a huge explosion, but with a huge expansion/inflation of space time.

    As the universe cooled substantially from the initial state of uniform density and temperature, matter began to form which eventually, under the effect of gravity, began to gravitate together to form stars and galaxies.

  631. Normskis69

    The continents on which we live do not move location. It is the continental plates which move during the life cycle of the planet. More than half of our continents reside on multiple continental plates.

    I know it may be slightly anal. I understand the point of the video, and appreciate the author stating that the questions could have been worded better.

  632. Phil Pilgrim99

    I think your comment is interesting.
    Could you tell me what the difference is between an explosion and an expansion ? (given that the expansion we're talking about, I believed, to have been extremely rapid - like that of an explosion)

  633. Phil99

    Thank you

  634. Phil99

    oh, try being to the point will you !

  635. Phil99

    i mean, that's what I call being succinct

  636. Kateye70

    I don't remember if it was one of the vids in this doc or another that explored the way rewording survey questions can skew the results. Survey results can be very misleading, as pollsters know to their chagrin, and politicians to their delight.

  637. Vlatko


    Not everyone coming out of universities will become scientist. In fact only tiny percentage of those people will get to be scientists. And among the scientists you'll very rarely find someone who believes in God. So rarely that you can consider them as extinct species. That is the trend. In the past all the scientists were religious philosophers. Today almost no one is. And that is good.

    The non corporeal aspect is being researched indeed, but not scientifically. Few charlatans here and there are making money out of it and that's all. If you have some examples please share them with us so we can debunk/discus them properly.

    Few side notes.

    There is no need to call @Kateye70 a bone. She is definitely not a bone. There is no need to congratulate the 18th birthday to @Robert. He is definitely not 18 years old.

    Someone may understand these as provocations.

  638. robertallen1

    That's what I mean by better science education.

  639. robertallen1

    This is one of the few times that a now widely accepted scientific theory (techtonic plates) was at first derided as bunk.

  640. robertallen1

    Again, I recommend Darryl Huff's book, "How to Lie with Statistics."

  641. robertallen1

    If not extinct, at least obsolescent.

    By the way what is a bone used in this sense?

    I'm used to being provoked.

  642. Phil99

    Yes, and it's so easy to innocently skew the question, there's a considerable amount of study on how to avoid doing so

  643. Kateye70

    As someone who used statistics to place advertising, I am soooo aware of how numbers can lie. And surveys.

  644. Kateye70

    lol, I think oQ was thinking you might chew me up and spit me out, but *I* think I can do a little chewing right back ;) I do enjoy our conversations!

  645. robertallen1

    And that's why when it comes to whether the general trend is towards or against religion, I really don't know. I've read surveys going both ways.

  646. robertallen1

    Why is I sandwiched in between two asterisks?

    P.S. I hope your culture consists of something far above Paris Hilton.

  647. oQ

    I approach my day to day decisions knowing i affect every thing around me and i am affected by everything that surrounds me.
    There is a connection within the all.
    I don't think of God as the man in the sky, i think the word God is misused, always was.

  648. robertallen1

    Have you finished Ravitch?

  649. robertallen1

    And it's an awfully conceited connection at that.

  650. oQ

    I was asking if his birthday was on the 18th of August as he said he just had a birthday. My father was born on that day.
    Kateye understood what i meant by chewing on someone...and a few more people according to a previous post. But i will abstain from using the expression again.

  651. Kateye70

    *emphasis* without using bold/italics/underlines (often used when texting or chatting online).

    "Culture"...I play a game that has a vendor named 'Haris Pilton' who sells* a 'Gigantique' bag...in other words, I am immersed daily in cultural references ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous. I have to learn them or perish, haha!

    On the other hand I was told by someone with a Master's degree in English that I was the only person he knew who read Anthony Trollope for pleasure.

    *edit, I should have clarified, an obscenely overpriced (in game currency) bag...which if you know who Paris Hilton is you understand the cultural reference...and the game character was put in a few years ago when her show was (undeservedly) popular.

  652. Vlatko


    If you meant 18th of August, then I obviously misunderstood you, for which I apologize.

  653. Kateye70

    Almost. I am taking extra time on the last couple of chapters. They seem to contain the information I'm most interested in, discussing the possible future tactics of this insidious plan.

  654. robertallen1

    Have you read the "McDermotts of Balleycloran?" What's our opinion of "The Eustace Diamonds?" How about "Harry Hotspur" and "Phineas Finn." Can you name me (without research) a Trollopean novel which takes place in Australia. As long as you've read Trollope, I'd like you to know that you are communicating with the only person on his block who's read all of Bulwer-Lytton and lived to tell about it. And to think that I thought I was the only one who read literature for pleasure.

    You still haven't told me whether you've finished Ravitch.

  655. oQ

    In my opinion there is nothing conceited about this. We affect each other even at a distance such as here. Also, i don't reserve this for humans only....all life is affected by other life.

  656. robertallen1

    As I mentioned in a previous post, the only organization of which I am a member is the National Center for Science Education--and I'm not even a teacher or for that matter a scientist. I figure that the more politicized the organization gets, the better a job it will do--not that it hasn't done a fine job so far.

  657. oQ

    There is no need of "if", i have known of Robert long enough to know he is no kid any more.

  658. Kateye70

    Literature *is* pleasure =)

    It's been a few years since I read any of those; I went on a Trollope reading spree in the mid-'90's. I thoroughly enjoyed The Eustace Diamonds, as I recall, and am not sure if I read Harry Hotspur or not. I have a passing acquaintance with Bulwer-Lytton (again, years ago); congratulations on your narrow escape! No, I cannot name an Australian Trollope novel offhand =P Did I pass the pop quiz?

    I can, however, quote Jane Austen at length--and often do, even if people have no clue. I enjoy the contemporary fiction of authors from previous generations, who often shed a clear light on their own times in a way that historical fiction written by our own contemporaries cannot, particularly about social attitudes.

    (Sorry for off-topic conversation, Vlatko.)

  659. robertallen1

    Answer: John Caldigate--and you flunked. However, all you need is a passing acquaintance with Bulwer-Lytton. Except for his second novel "Pelham," the remainder of his considerable output is an endurance test.

    While I respect Jane Austen as a writer, but she is far from my favorite. How do you feel about George Eliot and Edith Wharton?

    Your comment about the older authors' being more adept at shedding a clear light on their own times is directly on point, the reason being that they were writing for a considerably larger and more intelligent and discriminating literary public. Today, there are simply too many distractions.

    And you need not apologize for being off topic. The documentary is about (or is supposed to be about) critical thinking.

  660. oQ

    Agreed, not everyone will become a scientist, (although aren't we all sciencing our life?) that's why i said thousands, that is if you consider scientists in ALL countries, in all branches, not just the ones that participate in documentaries or reach "stardom".
    Dean Radin, Ruppert Sheldrake, Fred Alan Wolf, (just to name a few) and many more who have credentials. The search for the noncorporal has to develop from the corporal, that's what science knows of.
    The rest is to be discovered.
    We can postpone those research (as a civilisation) but eventually humans will want to know what other dimension there is, and if that dimension can be accessed, then why not?
    Isn't that what science is all about...to know the unknowable (in the present).
    p.s. you may not respect the people i named, they sat on university benches as much as others.

  661. robertallen1

    If they place their religion (or belief in supernaturalism--one and the same thing) before science, they deserve no respect.

    How do you know what humans will eventually want to know? Is this another of your uneducated guesses?

    And no, science is not about trying to know the unknowable (a contradiction in terms), but rather achieving a deeper understanding of what we can know.

  662. oQ

    Religion and the believe in supernaturalism is not the same.
    It is a guess that makes sense to many, i would not expect it to make sense to you. I accept and appreciate that you are different than i.

    Science is always trying to reach the unknown (unknowable as may be thought).

  663. oQ

    Who are we to know where science will be in a 100 or a 1000yrs.
    You saying science will never go there, is a guess just like mine.

  664. robertallen1

    "It is a guess that makes sense to many" is as meaningless, ineffective and ineffectual as your ad hominem deflective comment. And by the way, just what is the difference between religion and BELIEF in supernaturalism?

    While what was thought to be unknowable can become known or knowable, this is only a biproduct of seeking the knowable.

  665. robertallen1

    First sentence is irrelevant. Second sentence is a mischaracterization. You're the cheap oracle.

  666. oQ

    It is not the belief in supernaturalism, it is the strong feeling that it exist within the self of all self. May be corporeality is only a small part of what awareness is. That's why i think it should be researched.
    There is nothing to lose, actually there is....the structure of religions.

  667. oQ

    mischaracterization? please characterize it right for me.
    I missed the ad hominem deflective comment that came apparently from my fingers, could you clarify that too?

  668. robertallen1

    " . . . it is the strong feeling that it exist [sic] within the self of all self." Now just what is that supposed to mean and just exactly what do you feel should be researched and how should those be gone about?

  669. robertallen1

    Ad hominem comment: "It is a guess that makes sense to many. I wouldn't expect it to make sense to you."

    Mischaraterization: Where did I predict anything?

  670. Artbyart

    I agree with the scientific method and every subject that the author speaks about. Yet he says it with such arrogance that he gives scientists a bad images. Like a jerk.

  671. Phil99

    "While what was thought to be unknowable can become known or knowable, this is only a biproduct of seeking the knowable."

    This sounds a bit circular to me. I mean, as soon as something "unknowable" becomes known it qualifies, by definition as having always been "knowable".

    And I'm wondering if I'm witnessing attempted "witch doctory", accompanied by desperate obfuscation.

  672. robertallen1

    In other words, science searches for the unknown, not the unknowable.

  673. RikG01

    I knew what you meant by BFF but only cos of South Park, Family Guy and Supernatural....the episode where they cut her head off.

    I recorded that one.

    @oQ it's not that "god could be true". That's filled with all sorts of implications which simply wouldn't be true. Such as biblical events as being real. We know for a fact that most are not. We have the overwhemling evidence to know for a fact that Adam and Eve, the talking snake, is all hokum. We know for a fact that Evolution occurred and we know for a fact that Noah's flood definitely did not occur and we know for a fact that the Earth is millions of times older than 6000 years.
    Ergo God could not be "true" but may still exist.

    It's more correct to say 'there is a chance that god could exist, but only because critical thinking demands that we continue to doubt and to question'.
    Of course, even if the mechanics of the universe that we're aware of now, were poven to be untrue tomorrow, that still wouldn't prove the existence of god. It would simply mean another answer is not forthcoming.

    Atheism is easy. We don't accept that any gods exists, because no evidence to support their existence has been demonstrated. That's the issue that seems to confound so many religous people about atheists. I don't get why its so hard. I personally struggle to understand why anyone would believe that a god exists when there's no evidence of such a thing. It seems like hard work trying to convince yourself that god exists and is good, when those gods of that "goodness" have a long history of murder, genocide, torture, slavery, rape, child-rape and bigotry, all of which are reported by their holy books and have been carried on by many of their followers throughout history and to this day.

    And you're right, life doesn't need to have a supernatural explanation at any level. The supernatural is an answer only given in ignorance of facts. A sort of 'idiots guide to everything'.
    Pff I don't know, God did it.
    Pff I don't know, the Flying spaghetti monster did it.
    Pff I don't know, the Magical Space Unicorn did it.
    Pff, I don't know, the Leprechauns did it.
    AD infititum

  674. Phil99

    So surely everything is "knowable". If this isn't true, what is not "knowable"

  675. RikG01

    Religion has laws, wars, sexism and bigotry.
    Supernaturalism has misguided ideas about spritis, pixies, ghosts and...I don't know, pacman or something.

    Yes they're both irrational but the second one can at least be fun. I often blame my badly written posts on the typo fairie5. Ba5taeds.....

  676. robertallen1

    And when you present a religee with the argument of no evidence, the typical cop-outs go as follows: "You don't understand." "You don't understand because you're not spiritual." "You'll never understand until you put away your intellect and ability to reason." "God simply does not want us to know him that way."

    P.S. I like your idea of "The Idiots Guide to Everything."

  677. robertallen1

    Let's start off with spiritual or belief in a supreme being, Christian style.

  678. robertallen1

    So can astrology and taro cards, if you don't take them seriously.

  679. oQ

    Did it? or was i right in thinking it would not make sense to you. I am not belittling you, i am just saying according to what i know about you from you, my guess is that it would not make sense to you.
    The word ad hominem is innapropriate in this instance, but calling me a cheap oracle may give a good exemple of what an ad hominem is.

  680. robertallen1

    To support your statement you resorted to ad hominem deflection.

    I never said I eschew ad hominem arguments--and you are a cheap oracle.

  681. oQ

    You never said you eschew ad hominem, you perfect it with style.
    Good day to you!

  682. robertallen1

    To those who deserve it.

  683. over the edge

    you stated "I don't think of God as the man in the sky" i agree with you on what you hold as your idea of god. while i don't fully agree or understand your view you have explained it to me in the past. that is why i asked that question. i the "butterfly effect" would lead me to approach day to day situations similarly to you. while my approach differs my reasons for that approach would seem the same to an outsider. then you state "i think the word God is misused, " while there are instances i agree i feel that you are imposing your own (narrow) definition to god and atheism and then expecting others to live by these new definitions. if i am wrong please correct me but that is what i see you doing.

  684. Phil99

    Are not both "spiritual" and ".. belief in .." "knowable" as erroneous creations of mind, with the legitimacy of this position sourced in the fact that (from the atheist position) this manifestation of them is them in their entirety even though they do not exist as scientific reality.
    Or are you more along the lines of : something(s) for which there is zero proof and tons of contradictory evidence does not exist at all, and there cannot be known - cannot be knowable since there is nothing to be known ?.

  685. robertallen1

    Let me put it this way. Without hard evidence, I don't believe. So you can spare me the anfractuous language.

  686. Vlatko


    You said: "there are thousands of people coming out of universities every year and a large percentage are theist or agnostic"

    Since we were speaking about the SCIENTISTS (you said I was describing an atheist scientist) I told you that all those people that are coming out of universities will not necessarily become scientists, therefore you can't offer that as an argument. I don't think the world is producing thousands of scientists per year. Even if it did the number of the ones who believe in God is going down, not up.

    We can postpone those research (as a civilisation) but eventually humans will want to know what other dimension there is, and if that dimension can be accessed, then why not?

    What research? As if you know were the research should go. You only hope that science will somehow reconcile with some form of para-psychological spiritualism.

    Even if science makes a progress or discovery in the field of parapsychology (your guys are working on that) what that has to do with God or Theism?

  687. oQ

    By imposing , you mean i write about them? I do not associate myself with any religion but i do have the impression that we are much more than just physical being. If writing this means i am imposing my thoughts on others, i am not sure how i should react. Perhaps silence.
    My description of atheism still stand, i haven't read anything that contradicts it yet (for me).
    "The word God has/is misused", the word will not dissapear overnight and will have to be reinvented....hopefully by scientific probing into the unknown.
    As i said...many are probing but far from the majority, (in many ways) they have to search behind the doors, without much funding, and while being the farce of science.
    I have no set belief but i believe every thing is possible.....with enough time.
    The physicallity of life may be young as far as the world knows.

  688. robertallen1

    Your impression that we are much more than just physical being has as much substance as the hole of a donut. Impressions such as your belief that everything is possible [I guess this includes banshees and elves] don't count; hard evidence does.

    And speaking of hard evidence, just who are those many who are "searching behind doors [I'm hearing weird music from a Hammond Chord Organ], without much funding, and while being the farce of science." Did it ever occur to you that they deserve your characterization?

  689. over the edge

    in no way am i suggesting you should be silent. i appreciate your unique perspective and insights. but when you state that atheism is the claim that god does not exist to the exclusion of what i would suspect many here hold as just a non belief in god claims that is when i will oppose you. but i will ask. is it your opinion that more atheists claim that god definitely does not exist or that there they simply do not believe the claims put forward?

  690. Kateye70

    oQ said: "May be corporeality is only a small part of what awareness is. That's why i think it should be researched."

    And immediately got pounced on. However, I see the problem. oQ is positing something that cannot be readily researched. We simply don't have the means at hand, any more than Icarus had the means to build a flying machine.

    Which only shows that mankind has been dreaming of flight for so long the very concept became mythologized. And yet...we've sent men to the moon and unmanned flights to Mars and beyond. How unlikely such a thing would have seemed even a couple of centuries ago, and yet nowadays taking a plane ride is as boring as sitting on a bus.

    If a hypothesis about non-corporeal awareness could be formulated and subjected to scientific methodology, It might convince the 'scientees' (like my new word? =D ).

    Conversely, maybe it truly is something that can only discovered (or not) after we lose our corporeal beings. The knowledge of that awareness may be too big for our small bodies; Or, there may simply be no awareness at all.

    In which case, the scientees will be right, but we'll all be dead and won't know it, lol

    My analogy about flight is only to show that the question was asked for millenia before anyone had anything remotely close to the ability to answer it.

    Since, at this point in time, oQ's question is unanswerable, does that automatically make it invalid? ( /hands over ears to drown out all the "YES"s that will inevitably follow).

  691. dmxi

    "cheap oracle","disgusting protege"," Is this another of your uneducated guesses? "etc...spoken like a true gentleman it must be satisfactory belittling
    people due to alternate creed,education or/& belief in discussion that have chosen a different path of viewing existence.being right reserves no right of vile conduct & using dismissive rhetoric which is far more disgusting than having 'faith'.it seems that certain people don't have to follow the comment policy as others.

  692. robertallen1

    All the scientific accomplishments you mentioned came about through HARD EVIDENCE AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE NATURAL WORLD, not through beliefs in some form of voodoo. If "non-corporeal awaness" means the supernatural, there's no way it can be subjected to scientific methodology.

    Conversely, fairies and pixies may rule the universe, but this is something that we'll never know until we rid ourselves of our corporeal beings to become their playmates.

    I can come up with all sorts of unanswerable questions and conjectures, but while this might say something about my creativity, it says nothing about their validity.

  693. Phil99

    The language doesn't seem anfractuous to me, in fact quite straight forward, albeit with a slight cumbersomeness to the logic brought about by the nebulousness of original notion that "unknowable" actually is a valid concept. (from my point of view)
    Overall, mine is an attempt to clarify here - not argue - so at this point I also need to double check that we're both talking about BELIEF in supreme being - not whether that supreme being actually exists (prompted by your mention of you needing hard evidence)
    A further, but much more general clarification I seek is, does sound logic qualify as "hard evidence".

  694. robertallen1

    And just what "sound logic" are you talking about?

  695. Phil99

    It's a No from me, and a thrill to think I might get to analyse a, or some, purportedly well reasoned YES answers.

  696. Vlatko


    Well I can too formulate a similar conjecture, and so everyone else with enough imagination:

    Do banshees and elves exist? We don't know for sure. Since, at this point of time, that question is unanswerable, does that automatically make it invalid?

    Using this logic, it seems that at this point of time nothing is invalid. Everything is possible. From a philosophical point of view that might be true, but realistically we can only validate things that are within our scientific scope.

    Of course we can talk about the scientific future, but that will only be speculation, nothing more. The thing becomes worse when people want to include their spirituality and God in the equation.

  697. Chris Collins

    Very important documentary. Unfortunately, for those emotional patrons of over active imaginations this will go largely contested.

    I do have a few questions, does having no observable data on an anomalous article warrant proof of non-existence? Also, isn't it the objective of critical thinking to ask questions and find facts related to observable evidence even those reported as anomalous? If so, then why are the careers of scientists put in jeopardy when they choose to investigate these anomalies and why then after finding observable evidence that conflicts with mainstream accepted theories are their reputations tarnished and theories discounted?

    It seems to me that politics plays far too much of a role in science and progress is only further r*tarded by the egotistical self righteousness of those that care more for position and power than progress. I believe that this should have been mentioned in this documentary.

  698. Kateye70

    I knew I could count on you!

    As I understood oQ's statement, she was specifically stating it was 'non-corporeal' as opposed to 'corporeal.' She also said, "i do have the impression that we are much more than just physical being."

    Neither statement warrants jumping to the conclusion that she therefore meant supernatural (i.e., outside of nature). In fact, I took her to mean 'within nature,' but not yet known.

    In re flight: The hard evidence and knowledge of the natural world came about millenia after the question was first asked.

    Here's another example: We don't have the ability to see colors into the infrared and ultraviolet spectrum; before the discovery of the electromagnetic spectrum, no one even speculated about their existence. And yet, there they were, just waiting to be found, along with radio waves and microwaves.

    oQ, as I understand it, is positing that we may actually be able to find an answer while still in our corporeal existence, and learn or find a way to access the non-corporeal component of our awareness, if we just keep looking.

    Skepticism is certainly the order of the day until the evidence is provable, verifiable and falsifiable.

    (Disclaimer: for anyone thinking this is a 'religious' statement or discussion on my part, rest assured it is not. Also, I'm not speaking for oQ, only clarifying how I understood her.)

  699. Kateye70

    The question, as I understand from oQ, is not about 'banshees' or 'pixies' or unwarranted conjectures.

    The question is about non-corporeal awareness being accessed while in our corporeal form. (I could be wrong in how she meant this, bear in mind).

    But. Here's where dismissing it out of hand, or as purely imaginary, goes astray. Why do humans keep asking the question?

    Now, it may be eventually proven that there's a region in our brain that produces a chemical which makes us hallucinate the need for the answer. That's pure speculation right there. Or there may be an as-yet-undiscovered natural mechanism that actually allows us to access the non-corporeal awareness. More speculation.

    I just think that as with flight, the desire may eventually provide the way to the means; or, just as microwaves gave us a faster baked potato, new discoveries may give us the answer.

    Personally, I'm neither for nor against, just intrigued. And the question does keep getting asked.

  700. lakhotason

    Why would a region in our brain make us hallucinate? What would be the advantage of hallucinating over keeping a steady course, so to say?

  701. Kateye70

    No advantage at all, of course. That was a speculation, not an actual hypothesis.

  702. lakhotason

    I wasn't questioning what you said, perhaps it is an hallucination, but why? What advantage?

  703. Kateye70

    Evolution doesn't require that a particular mutation be beneficial to survival to remain active; merely that it not be a detriment to reproduction. We could all be raving maniacs but as long as we can survive long enough to reproduce effectively, that's all that's required. In fact, raving mania could be a positive survival trait--think 'honey badger' lol. (If you don't get it, look up 'honey badger dont care' on youtube).

  704. Kateye70

    That was just an illustrative point, and didn't have any grand meaning beyond that.

  705. robertallen1

    The sentence in question begins with the word "if." If she meant what you think she meant, she should have stated it point blank. She has not clarified one way or the other. Once again, just what is this "non-corporeal" component?

  706. lakhotason

    But does not evolution tend to do away with those things that are contrary to gaining an advantage? That is, not having an hallucination should be more advantageous than having one. Yet if what you say is true, by deduction, it is an a advantage. Just a question.

  707. robertallen1

    It doesn't take much to intrigue you. Just a few scattered kooks.

  708. robertallen1

    Sometimes it doesn't succeed. Look at the koala bear with it's specialized diet (and I know it's not a bear). Are you familiar with Manukura the white kiwi?

  709. lakhotason

    Yet why did it succeed in homo sapiens? Or maybe a better question is why homo sapiens succeeded in spite of this?

  710. Achems_Razor

    What is the definition for non-corporeal, without a body? a spirit? the akashic records? a collective consciousness divorced from physical reality? what form of locomotion does a non-corporeal use.

    Sorry, smells of snake oil to me.

  711. robertallen1

    You yourself have admitted that evolution can't be predicted and the idea that certain forms of life succeed when least expected gives the lie to a well-tuned, well-ordered universe.

  712. over the edge

    Chris Collins
    to avoid giving a blanket statement in response could you provide specific examples of this?

  713. Kateye70

    And questions beyond the purely physical aspects of living. I *am* a curious Kat.

  714. lakhotason

    I don't believe in a well-tuned universe but I do believe in a well-ordered universe. These are questions that niggle at my acceptance of a well-ordered universe.

  715. robertallen1

    If they exist, one opinion is just as good as another.

  716. robertallen1

    I'm not sure what you mean by a well-ordered universe. However, if it were, everything would be predictable. We'd be able to determine when the next comet will collide with our planet--yet, we can't--and it isn't for lack of information.

  717. lakhotason

    Speculation I like.

  718. Kateye70

    Ok, kind of an answer to Achems_Razor but also to others. Here's an illustration:

    You have awareness? Yes?

    Do you drive a car or even larger vehicle?

    When you are in that vehicle, does your awareness expand to make that car or vehicle your new 'body'?

    Don't you become aware very quickly of where the edges of the vehicle are, and what its turning radius is and can judge how to turn a corner without hitting the curb or another vehicle?

    This is an observable, testable, falsifiable phenomenon. I've tested, observed and falsified it myself, and had others corroborate the same experience.

    Is that scientific enough for a non-corporeal awareness? After all, the vehicle is not your body. Yet your awareness expanded to fill it.

    I'm not defining 'non-corporeal awareness' any further than this since it was oQ's original statement that I have been so bold as to expand on.

  719. lakhotason

    I suppose what I mean by a well-ordered universe is that if you take a long view at the universe it seems to make sense. However if you should take a short view nothing makes sense.

  720. Achems_Razor

    Sorry that will not fly with me, so if you hit the fender of your car, you will feel corporeal pain in the synopsis of your brain, because your awareness expands to fill the car.

    You might as well say that you are aware of the earth and your awareness expands to fill the earth. Snake oil!

  721. Phil99

    All of it
    That's not to say all logic is sound of course and I think your reply to Kateye is an example.
    By you answering as if "non-corporeal awareness" is "supernatural" are you not presenting a fallacy of presumption ?. I suggest a clear vested interest is evident here because if "non-corporeal awareness" is accepted as the same as "supernatural" then it facilitates the automatic dismissal of Kateye's proposition - as science deals with the natural, and nothing other, according to what you've said.
    How many people, once upon a time, were sure that Thor (the equivalent of your fairies and pixies) was responsible for storms. Explicit doubters, if there were any, would have been slapped down, by the guardians of the "truth". Would any have been declared insane, tagged as trouble makers ?
    Of the doubters, what about those who had no alternative explanation - those for whom the whole Thor thing just didn't make sense at all. Were they correct in having doubts ?
    Surely doubters existed - explicit or otherwise - for if there were no doubters there would have been no need for any questions at all, let alone any challenging questions being asked, and without them how could we have advanced to where we are - be sure that it wasn't Thor in control, and not have to die to find out what we know of what controls storms now, or even die & possibly cease to know anything at all.
    I say treasure the doubters for they are indispensable for the advancement of good science. Many may be genuine imbeciles, others genuinely deluded, some seen with certainty to be nonsense-peddling trouble makers talking out of turn. Give those that seek it, the opportunity of a hearing, this doesn't mean listening to those fools & deluded ones indefinitely, but to listen and consider their words at least once, because as nauseating as it may sometimes be, I believe it's part of the cost of the (often) huge price we have to pay for good science.
    I notice you're still using that "unknowable answer" twaddle which, with a little more time & discussion I believe will be seen for what it is (if I'm permitted a little light-hearted fun) - "the mark of a fraud & trickster" as I believe with the light of good reason it will be seen to be not at all, for every question has an answer - given we have time.

  722. robertallen1

    In answer to your second question, no. It's simply a device to get me from place to place and I have a better chance of reaching my destination if I drive carefully. In answer to your last question, no.

    You're clutching at straws.

  723. robertallen1

    And just how do you tell a long view from a short view?

  724. Kateye70

    ...I missed the part where I said your nerve endings attached to the vehicle...

  725. Achems_Razor

    lol, that's funny. All you are doing is when you become aware of you car and driving carefully is believe it or not, called critical thinking, you stayed on topic without even knowing it!

  726. robertallen1

    You're right IF it is accepted the same as the supernatural, it must be dismissed as science. I see nothing wrong in that just as in stating that science deals only with the knowable, not the unknowable--and you have yet to state why you regard it as twaddle and why you regard it as the mark of a fraud and trickster.

    If you want to waste your time on delusional kooks wallowing in things whose existence they are at a pitiful loss to demonstrate, that's your business, but we've come a long way since Thor and I'm not about to bother. It's nonsense pure and simple. When it comes to science, all the matters is the natural.

  727. Achems_Razor

    Gish gallop!

  728. robertallen1

    As long as you didn't miss the part where he said snake oil.

  729. robertallen1

    Good point. I'd never thought about it that way--now if only Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton could come off their highs long enough to watch the video.

  730. robertallen1

    You're batting 1000 today, both as poster and moderator.

  731. Epicurus

    ever hear the quote "trying to organize atheists/freethinkers is like trying to herd cats"?

  732. Phil99

    I see we're on the same wave, in this sea of consciousness.
    How would it be if you amended your 4th paragraph & removed
    " .chemical which makes us hallucinate the .." ?. As far as I can see it wouldn't effect the thrust of what you're saying at all.

  733. Epicurus

    to be fair the car is still corporeal i think. you are expanding your awareness to another corporeal entity.

    granted i have not read ANYTHING else of the conversation and just wanted to add my two philosophical cents.

    once again, this is a great conversation that we could all be having in real time on skype. you guys are funny.

  734. Epicurus

    not always will evolution weed out the disadvantages. as long as that disadvantage isnt THAT bad. it needs selective pressure against it. also somethings that do bad stuff now were useful at first and have found a way to continue....look at memes.

  735. robertallen1

    Do you mean that it would have no effect on the thrust or that it wouldn't bring it about?

  736. lakhotason

    Well you and I as humans can do no other than take the short view. All of us live only the biblical 70 years (give or take). We can certainly look at the past and say "Yes certainly". But we can only imagine the future in our understanding of today. Does that make sense?

  737. robertallen1

    I think a better example is vestigial organs such as the human appendix.

  738. lakhotason

    One does not bat a 1000, one bats 1.000. It's a thing for baseball fanatics.

  739. robertallen1

    What is the Biblical 70 years? Despite the exaggerated claims of the bible, people did not live as long then as they do now when reaching 70 is hardly unusual. See article on average life expectancy in Wikipedia. If you're saying that we look at things in terms of the times we live in, I agree.

  740. robertallen1

    Shows you what I know about baseball.

  741. Phil99

    A question is not an opinion.
    If you think this is debatable I'm all out of motivation to take you to task, I mean really ! this is but one step away from hurling insults & derisions that be nothing more than measure of the impoverishment of how you choose to be.

  742. over the edge

    not only do i agree. i can honestly admit i spent most of my time on this particular thread completely lost. now for a quote of my own
    "The trouble with the world is that the s*upid are c*cksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
    ~ Bertrand Russell

  743. robertallen1

    Which question did I ask? I see none in the post to which this is ostensibly a response. So if you want to hurl insults and derisions, do your worst. So far your posts are nothing more than gallimaufry or as Epicurus put it, "Gish Gallop."

  744. lakhotason

    Okay I accept what you say mainly because it's true. Then you may be saying that homo sapiens' stubborn belief in a deity comes because it isn't that bad? Hell it may very well be true. I'm just wondering.

  745. Phil99

    give me "..full of doubt." and I'll combine it with a ruthless honesty, and be free of all the trouble that may seem to be

  746. over the edge

    Kateye70 or anybody else interested
    to try to describe what you are getting at and a brief explanation as to why this occurs watch "is seeing believing ". the video link here has been shortened by youtube but there is an approx 3 min excerpt in place of the full video that addresses what i think you mean .check it out and let me know if it explains what you mean? also i recommend the full video if you can find it

  747. Kateye70

    I never intended to leave the topic =)

    You are saying that driving carefully is critical thinking. It is that, also. The idea of non-corporeal awareness and critical thinking are--strangely enough--not antithetical.

    Go one further, and think about someone operating heavy machinery that performs delicate tasks, like backhoes. At some point the operator stops thinking consciously about what they are doing to make the machine move, and operate it *as if* it were their own body. Their consciousness has expanded to fill the space of the machine. They then think critically about how to achieve their task, not about what levers to push or pull.

    I am remembering a study I've either seen or read about this. It is a very real phenomenon and there is a part of the brain that perceives the tool as an extension of itself. (I'll see if I can locate something on it, although my time is getting limited tonight.) IIRC, the brain has areas that are mapped to our extremities. My niece's husband drives big rigs and he finds it very difficult to come off a long trip and try to drive a car. He keeps trying to operate it as if it were a tractor-trailer. Edit: As if it had the *mass* of a tractor-trailor.

    I am saying that this phenomenon of our awareness inhabiting vehicles is a possible example of non-corporeal consciousness, and that it has actually got science behind it.

    It may not be the one oQ is positing, but it was just to demonstrate that her idea is not as idiotic as you want to paint it as being.

  748. Kateye70


  749. Kateye70

    No need to amend anything, I was just throwing out hypotheticals.

  750. robertallen1

    What you've described is simply adaptation by rote just like brushing your teeth. You do it so often you don't think about it. There is nothing uncorporeal here, nothing a silly as operating a tooth brush as if it's your own body.

    In an effort to give credence to oQ (for whatever reason, I don't know), you're making far more of this than you need to and once again, you're grasping at straws.

  751. lakhotason

    Then should you not consider that our evolution did not prepare us to drive vehicles. As far as I know we fully evolved in a wilderness. What you are saying is that we have evolved into a creature different from those homo sapiens which evolved in the wilderness?

  752. Phil99

    First things first.
    My post was a reply to your reply to Kateye saying "And questions beyond the purely physical aspects of living. I *am* a curious Kat."

  753. robertallen1

    I have no idea what you're referring to.

  754. Phil99

    My compliments to you - when it comes to wit I think you have no peer, here, but aren't we here to apply critical thinking ?

  755. Phil99

    Don't feel rushed, take your time, but if you can't come up with anything sensible, I'll understand

  756. Phil99

    sadly, that's not all .....

  757. Achems_Razor

    You are talking about levels of consciousness, as in your car scenario, when you give the car full awareness, it seems a part of your actions, but if you start thinking about other things or texting while you are driving, the autonomic nervous system will function to keep you on the road et al because of millions of years evolution of survival. The brain is a computer that will remember what actions to perform to a point and give that info to the body without full conscious awareness. (We have Ram) gigs. lol

    If a person falls to far in lapse of awareness then an accident may occur. Has nothing to do with some non-corporeal spirits floating around, yours or others taking control of the body.

    Again I say nothing but snake oil.

  758. Kateye70

    Actually, you and robert are right in that we are tool-users. And we are utilizing that part of our brains which developed to use them, but in a much more sophisticated manner than our ancestors.

    I never said the car had 'full awareness', I said that our awareness expands to the limits of the vehicle we are in.

    Why is it such a leap to think that there is further possibilities in the same mechanism? I'm just demonstrating that an idea with no science to currently support it may come into its own at a later date in time, and can utilize already-existing mechanisms that we either don't currently know about, or don't fully understand yet, or may not know how to fully develop yet.

    However, I am off to keep you safe from dragons, however little you may appreciate my effort.

  759. robertallen1

    "Our awareness expands to the limits of the vehicle we are in." Just what is that supposed to mean? Gibberish does not cut it or in the words of Achem, snake oil.

  760. Achems_Razor

    Keep me safe from dragons? What are you, "G Girl"?

  761. Kateye70

    Sometime you guys deliberately misread or don't read everything. I mentioned in a post below that I read a study on how our brains mentally change to inhabit vehicles. Its not pseudoscience, its real actual studies and IIRC included some type of brain scans to show how motor function changes. But it was a while back and I will have to dig to locate it.

    Just because you don't know about it yet doesn't make it snake oil. Which just sounds like nasty stuff, by the way. Ugh.

  762. Kateye70

    Currently I am Kateye the King-Slayer. And tonight you may sleep soundly, the dragons are dead in Azeroth.

  763. robertallen1

    And you deliberately mischaracterize. I simply said that there is nothing non-corporeal about it and I believe that Epicurus said the same thing. I'll go one step further and say that attempting to relegate it to the realm of the non-natural is sheer quackery.

  764. Kateye70

    ...when did I relegate it to anything? I was using it as an example.

  765. robertallen1

    As an example of what, something already well explained by science?

  766. Epicurus

    that was Achems actually.

  767. robertallen1

    Can you ever forgive me?

  768. Kateye70

    Thanks, that's close, although I'm not sure neuroplasticity is exactly what I remember reading about. Neuroplasticity I think deals with the actual body and prosthetic limbs; what I am talking about is using the same part of the brain that control our own limbs to control a large structure, such as a car or large machinery. It could be one of those waldoes that Sigourney Weaver's character operated in the Alien movies. Point is, it's larger than us and yet our mind perceives it as our own body.

    Ok, I am not a brain specialist of any sort, but the explanation I am recalling from memory went kind of like, there are places in the brain that specifically control motor movements for various limbs, fingers, toes, and other body parts. Those same areas are accessed, even though the movements don't necessarily correspond with the actual tool being manipulated.

    To the person operating the equipment, it SEEMS like they are inhabiting the entire machine; i.e., that the machine becomes their prosthesis, if you will.

  769. robertallen1

    Fine, but the brain is dictating this. Therefore, it is corporeal and it's something which science has known about for a long time. I really don't see what the problem is.

  770. Phil99

    I think you've sent this post to the wrong address - I'm certain.
    I do not own that car. I have never been in that car.

    I knew as soon as Kayete got into that bloody thing, I could see she was headed for big trouble, and as we know, she crashed, and the car's a right off.

    Mind you, even though that car was wobbly from the start, she did a pretty good job of driving what she had gotten herself into, of course the incoming pelted rocks didn't help her chances, especially once the windscreen was smashed, ditto about about the punctures from the nails on the roadway, then there those silly straw men jumping out in front her, and couple of clowns to, and so did a pair of red herrings - immediately they broke loose of the clowns cuddlings .

    But I digress, and back to my main point.

    Her car, her car is a scattered confused jumble on the side of the road,
    you want me to get into it. I will not get into that car. I do not own that car. I have never been in that car and I will not get into that car - ever.

    This suggestion of yours that I get into that car (and my congratulations to you) is now my brand new definition of the ultimate in ambitiousness. Thank you

    Now Achems_Razor, you have not addressed one, not even one, point about Thor & my Hero Doubters, you cannot be serious. Achems, I have no choice but to be blunt here: have you ever heard of:
    " A Fallacy of Relevance" ?

    Please, I do remember, that you mentioned having some gish in your gallops, and I did tell you not to be concerned about that - truely - don't feel rushed, take your time , but forget about that confused jumble on the side of the road, and read, or reread Thor & the Hero Doubters, and if you don't come up anything sensible straight away, or even after a while, that's still alright just don't be concerned, because, that means, by then you'll be able to see for yourself, that everything, is all alright with Thor & the Hero Doubters.

  771. Kateye70

    There's no problem.

    All I was attempting to do was illustrate a point. Which is that our awareness can inhabit a space larger than our bodies, and that there is a natural explanation for it, even if you don't like that particular description of the phenomenon. I certainly wasn't getting all mystical.

    Just because we are talking corporeal in this example, doesn't mean that non-corporeal awareness (for lack of a better term) a. doesn't exist and b. doesn't have a natural explanation even if we have yet to discover it. And before the explanation was 'well-known' to science, it wasn't known and could have been explained as a supernatural phenomenon.

    However, my illustration may not be the same definition oQ meant, and she will have to expound further.

    Phew. Now you see why I have to go slay dragons every so often. Killing pixels is a great stress reducer.

  772. Kateye70

    I don't know what car you got into, but mine's just fine, thank you very much =)

    In fact, I traded it in for one of those waldo thingies. Now I'm walking roughshod all over the circus you left strewed around. Those clowns are pretty creepy, btw. And Thor says hello. He got a waldo for himself.

  773. robertallen1

    I have no idea what you're driving at.

  774. over the edge

    you traded your car for waldo? no wonder i haven't seen any posts from him lately. please let him go when the circus leaves town :)

  775. robertallen1

    Epicurus, Over_the_Edge, Achems_Razor

    In science, is there really a difference between a theory and a law? They seem to be saying and doing the same thing.

  776. Phil99

    Hey, that's great, I see 4 big round wheels, wide tyres to get that V12's grunt onto ground. mmmm ....
    Noticing a hell of a lot of rubber marks on the tarmac here, let me guess: mmmm you've been havin fun doin donuts- running rings around those aspiring competitors of yours. I don't think they're in the race myself.

    And Yer, those clowns are worse than creepy, they just seem so emotionally attached to red herrings - all that kissin n cuddlin n strokin n pattin - doesn't look anything like a casual relationship to me and I wouldn't be surprised if they're breed & raise them in their homes..

    And, no doubt about it - spot-on judgement on your part for not handing out waldos to the Doubters. They've no use for them at all as they've discovered, that, with taking on ".full of doubt." and practicing a ruthless honesty, comes liberty, they can fly. and soar so high - oh, what a beautiful view.

  777. RikG01

    It's not an advantage that gices hallucination. Some neuroscientists are hypothesising (and so far demonstrating) that religion and religious experiences are the byproducts of "built in" social abilities. It seems that in order to function as a social species, our brains have developed certain functions:

    The imposition of the idea that other things can have minds and thoughts (alien mind) which allows us to recognise how over people may think and is probably one of the stronger mechanisms in anthropomorphis.

    Empathy, which allows us to imagine, recall and recreate the the emotions/pain of others, crucial in a social species as it makes us want to care for people and allos us to understand their actions.

    Identifying authority figures: invaluable as a child. You trust what other people tell you, especially when they;re older, because it's a short cut to learning. Prevents us having to experiment with everything for ourselves.

    Unknown Agents I think it's called. Basically our brain interprets things like shadow, fast movements spotted out of the corner of our eyes etc It shows us what we're hoping to see or things it's expecting to see that may be a danger. When the brain fills in the blanks.

    These processes are the most likely explanation for the fact that 50% of children will have imaginary friends.
    We try find patterns and explanations for things, we don't have an answer but we can imagine some other thinking thing being the cause (unknown agent, alien mind). It clealy knows more than us (alien mind, authority figure).
    How would this creator feel? (alien mind, empathy) We should shhow it respect or it might get angry (empathy, authority figure, alien mind).

    As for people seeing things, when you expect to see something or want to see something, under the right circumstances, ( a movement out the corner of your eye, a shadow, a pattern in the stars or clouds, a face in a peice of toast) your brain will probably find a way to make it happen. All those pieces of toast on the internet which people claimed were jesus. I thought they looked more like elvis or in one case an elf. I thought the Mary toast was Marilyn Monroe. Our brains find patterns. We already know for a fact that the brain seeks out patterns and faces, imposing them where there are none.

    When the studies are complete, if they show that this is true, that religion is basically a "crossed wire" between these processes, it could be very interesting.

  778. Phil99

    Epicurus, thank you for your patience.

    I've re-watched episodes 5 & 6 and have no trouble agreeing my anecdote is not scientific evidence, although did in my own mind draw conclusions, which I can't see changing. Nor does it look like you're going to move, a nanometer.
    I have a suggestion: a short preface : From my first post about this documentary till very recently, a substantial part of the my posts topic content has been about a certain pseudoscience, but, my primary interest is Critical Thinking - in fact it's a passion.
    If the documentary had a different title there would've been no post from me !.
    As a long-term critical thinker I've learned to never forget the value of humility. This demeanor has cost me, many times, not a fortune no, mostly the time & effort to listen - for as short a time that can be, when I discover another is a fool, or more ignorant than me with not the insight to see so. But this doesn't happen every time, and overall I've acquired, compared to the cost, considerable wealth in ideas and understanding, and more. With application of this self discipline and some time, came unexpectedly, "gold" from within. - A Ruthless Honesty, which has set me free.

    My suggestion is: that if you'd care to nominate a Placebo information resource you think I'd benefit accessing that won't take any more than an hour to do so, I'll commit to checking it out.
    Primarily because you've acquired some credibility with me through being civil, reasonable, thoughtful and generous, but also secondarily: my curiosity as to what's behind the stubbornness of this otherwise completely reasonable person.

    I do ask for two things in return:

    1. Allowing me the option of declining debate, if my post-checkout assessment of the info resource is that it will not advance our appreciation of each others position. But, no matter what, I'm ok to volunteer a comment about your recommended material if you so choose.
    2. You have one guess (after I've checked out the info) as which historical figure, is my favorite Hero Doubter. No prizes if you're guess is correct, and if it's not, I do not have to divulge the correct answer.
    What do you think about this suggestion ?

  779. Kateye70

    LoL, poor Waldo, maybe he got kidnapped into the circus and I stepped on him with my waldo.

    Actually, this is an apropos reference. Look up 'waldo (short story)' on wikipedia -it was a 'duo' publication of two shorts, "Waldo" and "Magic, Inc." by Robert Heinlein.

    From wiki: "The essence of the story is the journey of a mechanical genius from his self-imposed exile from the rest of humanity to a more normal life, conquering the disease myasthenia gravis as well as his own contempt for humans in general. The key to this is that magic is loose in the world, but in a logical and scientific way."

    It would actually be a good read, if you come across it. The term 'waldo' made it from the short story to real world application.

  780. Kateye70

    Nicely put.

  781. robertallen1

    Thanks a lot. Learned something. It seems that in science, a law occupies a higher plateau than a theory.

  782. Achems_Razor

    What are you talking about?

  783. Kateye70

    He apparently hallucinated that I was in a car wreck...creepy clowns, waldoes and Thor figured prominently...

  784. Philio

    Looks like some fun here. Is this doc banned in the US? It comes up but with no play button. Any suggestions?

  785. robertallen1

    That should tell you something about him.

    P.S. You never provided me your opinion on George Eliot and Edith Wharton.

  786. Kateye70

    Well, a literary discussion is definitely off topic, but yes, I have read them both and enjoy them both.

    I do find Edith Wharton's view a bit sad in outlook, but it deals with the aftermath of relationoships vs. Austen's work which only focuses on the start of them. It's too bad Austen died so young; I think her work was developing tremendously, and her insight into human nature very keen--it is her roman-a-clef style that makes her work so infinitely readable to me; her supporting characters stand complete.

    I've read mny more biographical works on Austen than Wharton or Sands; I could go on for many paragraphs but this topic is waaay too long for this format. Also I'm at work and busy today, so may not get a chance to get back on for a while.

  787. robertallen1

    Which view are you referring to? Having read all of her novels and short stories, I don't believe that Edith Wharton had a view, an artistic sense, yes.

    P.S. As this is a documentary about critical thinking, I don't believe your post is off topic.

  788. Kateye70

    Her world view. I do not re-read Wharton as often as I re-read Austen. I also re-read the Tolkein trilogy on a regular basis (about once every 6 or 7 years).

  789. robertallen1

    When you have time (and I understand your job must be tedious), would you mind encapsulating what you believe to be her world view?

  790. Achems_Razor

    It seems fine in Canada were I am, clear your cache and cookies, reboot and try again, don't know what else to tell you.

  791. oQ

    What a difference a day makes!

    critical car thinking?

  792. Lakhotason

    Here's something along that line. Why is it when we are asleep we seem to "know" where the edge of the bed is? We toss and turn and roll and yet stay on the bed. What is it in our brain that seems to have an awareness even when we are asleep?

  793. robertallen1

    And how many people have fallen off the edge of the bed? How many people buy a large bed to prevent this from happening? Critical thinking at its finest.

  794. lakhotason

    This is another thing I want to think out before I look it up. I'm leaning towards that it has something to do with our ingrained fear of falling. I'm thinking this because if I sleep on a pallet on the floor I'll often as not wake up off the pallet.

    Don't think bed size has much to do with it. I'll stay on a twin bed as well as I stay on a king bed.

  795. Kateye70

    Maybe it has something to do with our earlier tree-dwelling primate ancestors sleeping in trees?

  796. oQ

    In your opinion law or theory?
    We live in a physical (matter) and observable universe only. The supernatural and noncorporeal aspect of life is a figment of our imagination.

  797. lakhotason

    That's what I'm thinking. That ingrained fear of falling.

  798. oQ

    habit...you should have seen my grand son when he was switched to a regular bed from his crib.

  799. robertallen1

    I don't know. I've never slept on a pallet. But speaking of falling, I am reminded of what Bob Monkhouse said (and this is not quote-mining for I have nothing to prove), "It's not so much fear of flying as fear of not flying."

  800. lakhotason

    And that's another thing to consider. Small children often do fall from the bed.

  801. Achems_Razor

    Just imagine! a women in the throes of PMS, and (scorned... hell hath no fury), etc: etc:, would not want be around any womans critical cars that have that road rage ectoplasm, non-corporeal, spirits, whatever, from the womans consciousness that fills that car. hehe

  802. lakhotason

    A sort of Stephen King's "Christine".

  803. Kateye70

    My brother has often noted that some of the most aggressive drivers on the road turn out to be women.

    Have you ever used a waldo-type machine?

  804. over the edge

    you asked "In your opinion law or theory?" i don't know what you mean by that. could you expand?

  805. oQ

    hormis (French) the PMS, i think you'd have the ride of your life time! But most guys rather ride hard with scared women.

  806. oQ

    Change the order of the phrase suggested and the question.
    From your link: 3.A theory may become obsolete with time. This is not the case with a law.

  807. over the edge

    let me know if i get this right? i have been confused a lot lately :) (most likely my fault) but i don't state "We live in a physical (matter) and observable universe only. " all i state is that is all we can test and prove and the best way to make a decision on something we can actually study. i never stated that "The supernatural and noncorporeal aspect of life is a figment of our imagination." only that it has no demonstrable evidence and not necessary to explain the world around us.

  808. oQ

    I didn't write you stated anything, i am asking your opinion.
    IS IT your opinion that we come to know something by exploring and researching it and that if we want to know about the supernatural and noncorporeal, then we have to explore the possible "mysterious" behavior of energy.

  809. over the edge

    i am going to mix fact and opinion here. first a fact. science does not concern itself with the supernatural and any explanation of the""mysterious" behavior of energy." will be a naturalistic explanation therefore not supernatural. next opinion. i believe that we will never find a supernatural aspect in anything as for non corporeal that translates to not tangible or not real. i tend to have no position on things that are self described as not real. and nothing you described could be a theory or law in scientific terms

  810. robertallen1

    What mysterious behavior?

  811. oQ

    We may be energy first, flesh second. There may be a way for the self to access the noncorporeal directly. Is energy natural, corporeal or is it invisible and dynamic.

  812. robertallen1

    Just what are you talking about?

  813. over the edge

    when you say "We may be energy first, flesh second" do you mean us as humans or the universe as a whole. the first i can address the second i will have to abstain as my knowledge in that subject is insufficient to provide a proper answer. again sorry for making this more difficult then it probably needs to be.

  814. lakhotason

    It's my understanding there is little difference between energy and matter. If so then there is no first/second.

  815. Achems_Razor

    Spacetime is real, it is a thing, not a nothing, not a non-corporeal. Before the BG there was non-corporeal, no spacetime, so in effect what you are getting at is you want the human animal to visualize and experience time before there was time, experience non-corporeal from our corporeal level, you may be able to think about all that from our third person perspective "but" never experience anything or even think about it from the first person perspective.

  816. Dédé Demesdeux

    What a load of rubbish !!!

    Except the part about his mama coming from apes ,that explains
    a lot !!!

  817. Dédé Demesdeux

    What do you know ? !?

  818. robertallen1

    Just what are you talking about?

  819. Phil99

    To Epicurus,
    Hi, I first posted this reply 18 hrs ago but seems hasn't made it on screen so here it is again. Thanks for your patience

    OK I've re-watched episodes 5 & 6 and have no trouble agreeing my anecdote is not scientific evidence, although did in my own mind draw conclusions, which I can't see changing. Nor does it look like you're going to move, a nanometer.
    I have a suggestion: a short preface : From my first post about this documentary till very recently, a substantial part of the my posts topic content has been about a certain pseudoscience, but, my primary interest is Critical Thinking - in fact it's a passion.
    If the documentary had a different title there would've been no post from me !.
    As a long-term critical thinker I've learned to never forget the value of humility. This demeanor has cost me, many times, not a fortune no, mostly the time & effort to listen - for as short a time that can be, when I discover another is a fool, or more ignorant than me with not the insight to see so. But this doesn't happen every time, and overall I've acquired, compared to the cost, considerable wealth in ideas and understanding, and more. With application of this self discipline and some time, came unexpectedly, "gold" from within. - A Ruthless Honesty, which has set me free.

    My suggestion is: that if you'd care to nominate a Placebo information resource you think I'd benefit accessing that won't take any more than an hour to do so, I'll commit to checking it out.
    Primarily because you've acquired some credibility with me through being civil, reasonable, thoughtful and generous, but also secondarily: my curiosity as to what's behind the stubbornness of this otherwise completely reasonable person.

    I do ask for two things in return:

    1. Allowing me the option of declining debate, if my post-checkout assessment of the info resource is that it will not advance our appreciation of each others position. But, no matter what, I'm ok to volunteer a comment about your recommended material if you so choose.
    2. You have one guess (after I've checked out the info) as which historical figure, is my favorite Hero Doubter. No prizes if you're guess is correct, and if it's not, I do not have to divulge the correct answer.
    What do you think about this suggestion

  820. Phil99

    I still cannot see my reply post displayed, could you let me know if you have/have not received please. My first attempt to post it was 18hrs ago

  821. Phil99

    I'm curious: for what purpose would you have them organised ?

  822. Phil99

    Seems like a mix up somewhere.
    What got posted to me, in your name, as if a reply from you about an earlier post of mine, I now see is also posted as a reply to Kateye - where it makes sense.

    Before that, there was a second post in your name as a reply to an earlier one of mine, it said: "Gish Gallop".

    Another subject: thanks for the link to big bang. It confirmed it was an expansion rather than explosion (which I wasn't challenging) but didn't explain how the two were different with the BB.

  823. RikG01

    Energy is natural and corporeal. There's this bizarre idea at the moment, especially amongs spiritualists, that "energy" is some free floating thing that can pop up anywhere. This is of course entirely untrue. There's a finite amount of energy available in our bodies and it would run out if we didn't get more through food.

    The sun's energy, the source of all energy on earth, is trapped and absorbed by plants, animals gain energy by eating those plants, we gain energy by eating those plants or the animals which ate them. Energy which isn't absorebd by something dissipates back into space as heat and refelcted light. Without a corporeal anchor, energy is lost.

    When we talk about sleeping to get energy, it's not the same thing. It's a process where our bodies recover using the energy available and continue to metabolise what we've already eaten or converted to fat, which is basically an energy storage medium.

    @Lahkotason Energy and matter are the same thing in that all matter was formed from the energy of stars....in the simplest way I can explain it.

  824. robertallen1

    Exactly which is why I see red everytime an anti-evolutionists spuriously misemploy the laws of therodynamics to suit their ends.

  825. dewflirt

    Ever heard of breatharianism? "living on light and other less dense material" First sentence on the first website I looked at :) I first heard about it years ago, a woman was interviewed on breakfast tv, she said she hadn't eaten any food for about three years. Not long after there was some trouble when a follower died of starvation.

  826. robertallen1

    No, I haven't, but this is typical. Do you remember that fool who was trying to promote Dr. Sebi. It's the same thing, bees in bonnets.

  827. robertallen1

    Good article which creationists should read--not that they'll understand, much less accept, for it goes against their doctrine.

  828. Kateye70

    At the risk of being stomped on again: Even though the phrase 'non-corporeal awareness' may be incorrect, have you seen any of the research on non-invasive brain-computer interfaces?

  829. robertallen1

    CAT scans?

  830. Kateye70

    No, brain-computer interfaces. I'm going to suggest you wiki it, and scroll waaay down to see the section on 'non-invasive' types.

    I remembered seeing a short article about experiments with paraplegics using EEG to control a computer to type out sentences, although it was very slow, and took a long time to learn how to do.

    But it was back when the work was first being done and I'd forgotten about it until this morning. When I wiki'd it I realized how complex a field it is, including invasive as well as non-invasive procedures. Just a thought, really.

  831. robertallen1

    Sounds like an attempt to harness electrical brain waves--nothing non-corporeal about that.

  832. Kateye70

    Maybe not 'non' but perhaps 'extra'? (meaning that the effect is outside the body?) Just speculating here.

  833. robertallen1

    When break the laser beam emitted by a security device which might trigger an abrupt visit by the local constabulary, that's also outside the body.--extra corporeal in your terms. Nothing unusual.

  834. Epicurus

    thats pretty much the point. its silly. however there are atheist organizations and humanist organizations where they get together and do.....stuff....i dont know exactly what because im not part of any.

  835. Epicurus

    well thats not very nice of him.

  836. Epicurus

    ......go watch ancient aliens or something more on your level.

  837. dewflirt

    Especially not after a comment like that! ;)

  838. dewflirt

    The edge of the bed is softer than the middle, maybe you can feel yourself slipping off and roll back to the centre. Mini people are lighter, the edge doesn't give the same way, no slipping feeling until it's too late :)

  839. Tom Rabbitt

    My chiropractor has never tried to sell me herbal supplements. Just go through a proven physical routine that loses lactic acid between the muscles. It helps, he also tells me to drink more water. Sounds scientific to me.

  840. Tom Rabbitt

    Creation scientists are perfectly capable to understanding and working with the observable forces on the earth and organism without accepting that those have occurred over millions of years. Science can be respected and utilized to its fullest without believing in macro-evolution.

  841. Epicurus


    name ONE scientific experiment done to further substantiate creationism or intelligent design.

    in fact there is no such thing as "creation scientists" because creationism is not science it is make believe or wishful thinking.

  842. robertallen1

    No way. Creation science is a contradiction in terms and quackery unmeritorious of any respect.

  843. over the edge

    Tom Rabbitt
    ok could you please define macro -evolution for me?

  844. Vlatko

    I've deleted lots of comments. Stay on topic, without insults, accusations etc. please.

  845. Ivandobran

    disappointingly shallow

  846. Andy

    Unless you just exercised or are in some way ill, your muscles shouldn't be anaerobically respiring at rest (i.e. there shouldn't be any lactic acid). So he sounds fairly fraudulent just at that. Also drinking extra water does nothing for lactic acid, muscles or pretty much anything. The only way water would ever help you if you increased it is if your normal level of hydration had already hospitalised you.

  847. D H

    might want to give people a break on the big bang. as its a Theory and while I agree that its the best theory we have, it is not a Fact, as you say in the video.

  848. robertallen1

    It's as much a theory as the theory of evolution.

  849. dmxi

    ...& the theories of multiple deities,universes & (believe it or not)
    unification of all put together.we're all subscribers to subjective thinking with a pinch of critical illusions.>smirk<

  850. robertallen1

    Not in the scientific sense. You confuse theory with conjecture.

  851. dmxi

    thats why i '>smirked<' my comment...i thought it was obvious.i prefer a philosophical approach to the scientific 'unknowns' as it serves a multitude
    of options which abode the human spirit to reach further beyond the status quo,if you will....but that is only my humble approach to this subject.sorry,that i confused you.

  852. robertallen1

    Philosophy proves nothing.

  853. RikG01

    "It's as much a theory as the theory of evolution."

    I challenge that, mate. Evolution is fact, the theory is 'Evolution by Natural Selection'.

    I know that you know the difference but some people need it stating. There's a lot of misunderstanding in the general public and particularly the religious, which means we have to be careful, clear and helpful.

  854. robertallen1

    Thanks for the refinement which reflects Darwin's wonderful contribution, for the concept of evolution had been around sometime before Darwin. The problem is just getting them to realize that evolution is a fact--natural selection can come later.

    Just the other day, I was mentioning to Over the Edge that one of the great things about the scientists of yesteryear is that they might have started off as creationists, but when the evidence contradicted the beliefs in which they had been inculcated since childhood, like true scientists, they went with the evidence. However, despite all that has been discovered since Darwin's time, there are too many who place their religion with its attendant philosophy over everything, a tragic case being Kurt Wise.

  855. dmxi

    philosophy proves that the human nature can think out of the box.

  856. robertallen1

    Wrong. Any child can imagine something. Philosophy has done nothing for science and for that matter little for anything else.

  857. Achems_Razor

    Yes I agree, we are made from star stuff, but the BB itself formed the matter that clumped together to form the stars. But both right is okay with me.

  858. dmxi

    now thats what i call conjecture as the 'greeks' would beg to differ.the history of science is built upon philosophy(natural observation),or not?most hypothesis had a philosophical foundation which led it to modern science.....(again),or not?

  859. robertallen1

    What about anatomy, gravity, geology to name three. No, scientists have made science the marvel that it is, not navel-contemplating philosophers with really nothing to contribute.

  860. dmxi

    again,you're missing the point....our modern day statue is based on passed fallacies,beginning with greek philosophers which built on observations of the unknown giving the first examples of quantifying the measurable 'unknown'.....which ,in context intertwines every knowledge we enjoy today!an open mind will except this....a closed mind will ignore this as critical thinking has become a virtue of a new class with their eyes locked to
    the 'now' & forgetting the possibility of an unknown tomorrow.i'm not interested if i'm right as you're that i'm wrong........again,i just marvel at the options that life supplies as science kills individuality in a technocratic
    world (state of the nation)...as for anatomy,it was a philisophical creed that
    dared to proceed & publish;gravity was explored by a theosophical believer & geology came about the same time (can't name the person now) & I'm sure they had a religious background,meaning they at least frequented a church sometimes.

  861. robertallen1

    So you've resorted to gibberish--won't wash. No philosopher has contributed anything in his philosophical capacity to anatomy, gravity, geology, biology, physics, etc.

    And please spare us the self-serving statement about open and closed minds. That tack won't wash either.

  862. RikG01

    Whether they went to church or not is irrelevent. It doesn't change the nature of the universe and we can't say if they were inspired by the belief that was forced upon them or not, because we weren't there. Most scientists who had religious backgrounds, only had them because that's the way they were raised or the time the were born into. They didn't have a choice about it retroactively.

    Darwin wasn't raised atheist and then woke up one morning after discovering Evolution by Natural Selection and thought, "hmmm I think I want to have a religious background, better change my entire history". He didn't then hop in a time machine and convice his parents to raise him in Christianity.

    Newton wasn't raised without religion, then after calculating gravity stopped and though "hmmm this non-religious background doesn't suit me. I'll change my history through alchemy". He didn't then drug the world with a potion to make it seem like he'd been religious, growing up.
    *NB should add that, had Newton been raised and thought this way..he would probably have tried....crazy bas***d.

    They had no choice, ergo we can't say whether or not it was a factor. Who knows if people will make different choices if they are raised differently. Without being able to look into a parallel dimesnion where they did have those options, we'll never know. And until then, it's conjecture and therfor entirely irrelevent.

    You're right that philosophy was the origin of science but that doesn't change the fact that it's not scientific, at least, not philosphy in the modern, broad sense of the word.

    Aristotle's ideas formed the basic understanding of the universe for a very long time but only because the church threatened to murder anyone who proved them wrong. Galileo for example, was given the choice of renouncing his discovery of moons around jupiter, or be murdered. They still had him under house arrest for disclosing fact in the first place.

    To the church, Aristotle's idea that everything had a god given place, was VERY useful. They didn't want to lose that power.
    Aristotle was eventually proven wrong about many things (despite the church, not in thanks to it), but we're still thankful for his contributions, especially to logic and math's. That doesn't change the fact he and philosphy, were very, very wrong.

    Philosophy is great for the imagination. It allows you to imagine worlds but is not a substitute for science and doesn't create true understanding this world, the world that exists. Only create fantasy around it.

  863. RikG01

    I suppose if we're talking pure origin, then you're more right. Hehe until someone comes around with the definitive answer to what existed before the big bang, then they'll be more right than you...but we'll all still be correct...Until someone comes along with the answer to what created the elements that were around before the big bang, then they'll be more right.....

    I think my head is going to burst.....

  864. robertallen1

    Hence it is as useless in science as it is in the arts.

  865. dmxi

    i will make my self clear...the root of science lies in philosophical assertions which moulded the first steps for the laws of observation to create valid results.nothing more,nothing less!the art of questioning the natural surroundings led to cognative & physical understanding of our realm.for philosophy itself...it truly did not benefit science ,except for serving as 'soulfood' for scientists before taking a nap or for recitation to impress the opposite gender (& then take a nap)!

  866. Chris Collins

    This really has nothing to do with critical thinking. Just like religious doctrine it tells you to believe a set of values or "truths", that coincide with the general consensus of the establishment. Instead of showing you where to look, it tells you what to see. Even if science is based on fact there are still many contested theories such as the big bang and evolution, this is why they are known as theories. Regardless if they are true or not, mainstream science will outright dismiss any questions regarding the alternatives based on the current paradigm. It's evident that in the past a complete shift of scientific leaders was needed to even get these alternative questions to the table and it is no different today. There is more politics in science than politics itself.

  867. over the edge

    Chris Collins
    what are these "alternative questions"? also when you state "theories such as the big bang and evolution, this is why they are known as theories" you do realize that theory is as high as an explanation of fact can go in science? when you say "get these alternative questions to the table " do you mean get these ideas presented as science?

  868. robertallen1

    So you're saying that the root of anatomy lies in philosophic assertions. Just how do you think the physicians of the ancient world treated a broken bone, by philosophizing over it? What about Thales, Anaximander, Pythagoras, Anaxagorus, Hippocrites, Democritus and Euclid, did they philosophize first or did they roll up their sleeves and directly investigate, leaving others to philosophize after them like tin cans on the tail of a dog?

    In short, philosophy is as useless in the sciences and as it is in the arts.

  869. Vlatko

    @Chris Collins,

    "...this is why they are known as theories."


  870. robertallen1

    Wrong neither evolution nor the big bang is a contested theory. Wrong, consensus has little to do with it, but scientific (hard) evidence can and has upset consensus (e.g., techtonic plates).

    And just what in your mind is the "current paradigm?" I can think of only two, the natural world and scientific proof. Just which alternatives are you referring to? Just where do you get your conceit that mainstream science tells you what to see rather than where to look. How many science courses have you taken? How much science have you studied?

    It's particularly insulting when someone like you who obviously has no idea what science is about attempts to debase it to the gutter of religion. Before you comment further, I suggest that you read up on what a scientific theory is and how science works and then write about it--reversing the process results in a post as inane and ignorant as yours.

  871. Vlatko


    Almost all scientists in the past were natural philosophers. Back then almost every scientific thought was starting with philosophical idea. Newton himself was natural philosopher. The word physicist didn't even exist.

    For example Epicurus, besides his regular contributions, made quite stunning armchair scientific predictions. Today many of them came true.

    However today the picture is very different. Neil deGrasse Tyson says it well:

    "Up until early 20th century, philosophers had material contributions to make to the physical sciences. So, what happens is the 1920s come in. We learn about the expanding universe in the same decade as we learn about quantum physics, each of which falls so far out of what you can deduce from your armchair that the whole community of philosophers that previously had added materially to the thinking of the physical scientist were rendered essentially obsolete at that point. Philosophy has basically parted ways from the frontier of the physical sciences."

  872. robertallen1

    I admit that orthopedists, internists and obstetricians were unheard of in ancient societies and they were all known by the general rubric of philosopher. However, It's difficult to imagine anatomy starting off as natural philosophy. When a bone is broken, you set it; you don't philosophize about it first. When someone is bitten by a venemous snake, you don't philosophize about it, you try to get the venom out. When a baby is to be delivered, you roll up your sleeves and help the population explosion along; you don't philosophize about it first.

    True, Epicurus made some armchair scientific predictions which panned out. First of all how many armchair scientific predictions by Epucurus or others have not panned out? Secondly what direct contribution did Epicurus make to what he predicted or are his armchair predictions enough? Jules Verne wrote about submarines, but he certainly did not contribute to their development and it seems highly unlikely that they were developed as a result of his works.

    True, Newton was a natural philosopher (as you so correctly put it, the term physicist, like the term mathematician, had not yet come into being). However, that term seems to have been an all-purpose monniker to describe a multitude of vocations. One way or the other, his major contributions consist of putting his thoughts into action--i.e., what he did.

    I agree with Dr. Tyson. Philosophy is no longer the bedfellow of science and probably this parting of the ways started a few centuries back--then why do we see all too much of this irrelevant juxtaposition now?

  873. dmxi

    i'm saying that thought is precursory to action & you haven't read my comment correctly as i stated which worth philosophy has to modern science....but also how it had it's passed passive contributions.i see vlatko partially agrees,maybe he can convey it better to you.

  874. RikG01

    I think we're havng a misunderstanding on the definition of philosophy here.

    I think RobertAllen is seeing Descartes while dxmi is seeing Copernicus.

    In which case both of them are right in their view but we're all clashing on a general understanding of what is meant by "philosophy".

  875. robertallen1

    If you're saying that it's best to think about something before you do it, fine--but is that philosophy?

  876. dmxi

    the use of reason & arguement in seeking the truth & knowledge of reality,esp. of the causes & nature of things & of the principles governing existence,the material universe,perception of physical phenomena,& human behaviour ....(oxford concise)

  877. dmxi

    i know what you mean.we have a different definition of the word philosophy.i have a broad sense of the meaning whilst you prefer it by it's artistic usage (which can make one shrug,if one has to endure it's recitation or literature).

  878. dmxi

    back to topic,how can critical thinking be implemented back into basic schooling as this seems to be neglected beyond rationale & which status quo will a society reach that is formed by a generation of conformed intellect?

  879. robertallen1

    Perhaps you're right. I respect Copernicus, not so much because he turned out to be right, but because his writings, like Galileo's, are grounded in the herein and now, not some hinterland. I respect Descartes and Pascal as mathematicians--how can we get along without Cartesan coordinates or Pascal's triangle--but their philosophical writings are mere navel contemplation along with others such as Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, large parts of Aristotle, Plato, Spinoza and many more. Newton is half and half. His mathematical and scientific writings which are really what he is known by today (who cares about his religious excursions?) are wonderful, brilliant and, right or wrong, one of the greatest influences on modern science--but again, this is the herein and now.

  880. robertallen1

    What happened to hard evidence?

  881. robertallen1

    Please see my response to RIKGo1. Perhaps you're right.

  882. dmxi

    or both?

  883. RikG01

    Haha I love Newton. The guy was bonkers. It seems unreasonable to judge him as either a christian or a scientist once you know that he was also gay and an alchemist.....oh and a really vicious counterfeitting investigator.

    You can't say that he was strongly christian while reading his instructions for creating a temple, using a single stone, which you have to climb into using a snake so that you can gain wisdom from a priest who's changed the colour of nature and turned himself into silver.

    Newton kept his alchemical work secret and it was only discovered after his death. He seemed to be afraid of being found out. In my mind this would mean that you have to take his more christian writings with a pinch of salt as he was trying to cover his tracks. You didn't want to be a blashpemer in the 1600.
    It's interesting though, that the church or society didn't seem to have a problem with him being in love with Fatio de duillier.

    I can of course claim that this is all on topic, because I'm applying critical thinking to the idea that Newton was christian and it's effect on his work....... teehee

  884. dmxi

    it's not that abstruse that he believed to combine both to a certain extent,philosophical of course.he knew that the scriptures couldn't be taken word for word but suspected some sort of intelligent design,giving humanity a deeper cause.more hope than knowledge,if you will.i missed the part of his latent homosexuality,you never stop learning,do you!?!

  885. Technocracy Technate Tnat

    "Science, in view of some thousands of years of recorded history, has come only recently into existence. One after another, areas of thought once under the rule of opinion, philosophy and superstition have been invaded and conquered by the methods of factual observation and analysis. Today, only one major field remains unconquered by the methodology of science: the so called 'social studies.' The relationship between man and other men and between men and their physical environment is still a ripe field for numerous studious opinions and learned ignorance.

    Technocracy is advancing the frontier of science to this last stronghold of the past. Technocracy uses the same analytic and synthetic processes on the world of today as the scientist uses in his laboratory. Technocracy uses these methods not on a beaker of chemicals or a cage of white mice, but upon an entire Continent, and upon those aspects of the rest of the world which affect this Continent. Some of the findings of Technocracy aren't particularly well-liked, even by Technocrats; but what we like and what we don't like about the world around us doesn't change the fact of its existence. Technocrats have learned to face the facts and follow the facts, regardless of whether their previous conditioning causes them to like or dislike these facts."

  886. StevenLJones

    All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.
    Max Plank.
    Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
    Albert Einstein

  887. robertallen1

    And just what are these quotes from authority intended to prove?

  888. StevenLJones

    Even the greatest of scientists have a spiritual side. Maybe it's not very scientific and all wishful emotion. But still, there it is they said it. If atheists are so willing to condemn they should start in their own scientific back yard. For me god is a word, open to whatever interpretation you want to give it. But I hate to see existence boiled down to some puny mathematical formula. I hope people keep the mystery of life alive.

  889. robertallen1

    Your wishful thinking has nothing to do with science and the sooner you realize it the better.

  890. StevenLJones

    It's not my wishful thinking. That's why the quotes. Maybe should straighten these guys out on what is and what isn't science.

    mind and matter are abstractions from the universal flux (David Bohm.

    Physics most strongly insists that its methods do not penetrate behind the symbolism. Surely then that mental and spiritual nature of ourselves …
    supplies just that … which science is admittedly unable to give (Sir Arthur Eddignton

    our science – Greek science – is based on objectification… But I do believe that this is precisely the point where our present way of thinking does need to be amended, perhaps by a bit of blood transfusion from Eastern thought (Erwin Schrödinger

    Look up this guy Amit Goswami, Ph. D. He's a theoretical physicist. He also connects quantum theory to Eastern views. You don't have to agree but please don't dismiss them out of hand.

    If you respect science then keep an open mind. You don't like authority. Well what do you really know that you haven't read or heard from someone. Anything?

  891. robertallen1

    It is indeed your wishful thinking, but one way or the other, the only thing that matters is the hard evidence and speaking of hard evidence, can you prove that we even have a "spiritual nature of ourselves." Somebody's saying so means as much as "keeping an open mind."

  892. StevenLJones

    The somebodies are the movers and shakers of physics. They've made these statements after working in science their entire lives based on their discoveries. What you want is a mathematical formula that equals god or whatever. Proof of spirituality. That is something each person has to do for themselves. Nobody can do it for you. It doesn't exist in a mathematical formula. Words are poor substitutes for ones own experience. Eastern spirituality says it's very very simple. Live in the here now. But try it. Try not thinking. After you fail that try simply watching the content of your own mind until it goes quiet. It will probably take the rest of your life. Belief for or against something has nothing to do with it. It is simply experiencing your own consciousness.

  893. robertallen1

    These somebodies in physics worked with hard evidence and the results they obtained were result of their work with hard evidence, not their so-called spirituality. Whatever chimera they happen to entertain on the side is irrelevant and meaningless. So spare me the crap about consciousness, spirituality, unverifiable experiences, watching the content of one's mind (whatever that means) etc. If you can't provide hard evidence, forget it.

  894. StevenLJones

    Your hard evidence exists only in your mind. Because at the end of the day all that exists is your consciousness. E=MC2 is not the same as experiencing an atomic bomb. Close your eyes and the world disappears. Your hard evidence is simply a thought in your head. Thoughts come and go. Who you are comes and goes. But for that you need to really watch your thinking. All of it.

    Yogis have control over their automatic nervous system once though impossible by science. It's where biofeedback techniques used to control high blood pressure come from.

    Acupuncture works. It's a proven medical technique and the philosophy behind it is Taoism.

    But I'm sure that this means nothing to you so will end this discussion.

  895. robertallen1

    No. By definition, hard evidence is not in the mind (i.e., delusional) any more than the pebble on which i stubbed my foot yesterday or a fossil lying in the middle of a desert.

    And no, acupuncture it not a proven medical technique. I've just been reading about it and the jury is still out as it is with biofeedback. So don't try to snow me.

    A mathematical formula is merely a codification or representation of an activity or phenomenon. It is not the real thing and is not passed off to be. So your statement as to Einstein's notorious formula is meaningless.

    You're right this gibberish of yours means nothing to me.

  896. StevenLJones

    You live with yourself 24/7. Hard evidence is merely a curiosity. At the end of the day knowing one self trumps any hard evidence that may or may not be true.

  897. robertallen1

    Try setting a broken bone with only self-awarness and no hard evidence. Try driving a car with only self-awareness and no hard evidence. Try brushing your teeth with only self-awareness and no hard evidence. As a matter of fact, try getting through the day with only self-awareness and no hard evidence.

    And no, by nature and definition, hard evidence is always true.

    In short, you don't know what you're talking about.

  898. StevenLJones

    I bet you don't even think about it when you brush your teeth. You simply go ahead and do it day dreaming about hard evidence. Most of your day your on autopilot. You drive your car chatting to your buddy. Your problem is you don't know what self awareness is. You really don't know what I'm talking about so you have to call it crap. Try sitting and not thinking. I bet your first reaction is fear, although you won't even give yourself time to experience that as you go into justification to keep thinking. If you can't do this simple exercise then you have no right to judge or comment on it. Just think of it as a mystery that you will never experience.

  899. robertallen1

    Your problem is that you have nothing even approaching an education. This is apparent not only from your posts to me but from the responses you have received from others.

    Once again, everything you've written is nothing more than a load of ignorance-supporting crap--and you don't even possess the intelligence to know what you're talking about.

  900. StevenLJones

    Obviously you can't sit and and not think for thirty seconds. Your answer to this is to say I don't have an education, I'm ignorant etc. Then again you obviously think that the quotes from Eisenstein Max Plank Schrödinger etc are all crap because they don't fit what you choose to believe. So end of discussion. Nice to be able to cherry pick what you want from these guys.

    By the way your the only one commenting on what I said. I don't see anyone else commenting. Watch yourself.

  901. robertallen1

    You misrepresented Einstein and PlanCk. You did not provide sources for your quotes from any of those you named. So yes, your quotes are crap--and it has nothing to do with what I "choose" to believe, but rather your attempt to use these people as authority for what you choose to believe and what you can't support with the hard evidence you despise so much, probably because it shows you up for what you are.

    So what if I can't sit and not think for thirty seconds--at least my mind is going which is more than I can say for yours.

  902. StevenLJones

    Look I've ran out of time. I didn't make the quotes up. God doesn't play dice, that's about as famous a quote as I can think of.

    Anyway there is a lot to be said for cold hard facts. I agree.

    I hope you consider how hard it is to not think for thirty seconds and why. Very very few people can do that. I can't and I've been at most of my life. So that is a bit unfair of me. Very rewarding though to practice awareness of oneself. Try it next time you brush your teeth.

  903. robertallen1

    If you don't provide the sources (contexts), your quotes are suspect. When Einstein allegedly said, "God doesn't play dice," he was not affirming the existence of a supreme being, but rather was railing to Niels Bohr against the uncertainty principle of quantum physics.

    I'm with myself every waking moment, so I'm quite cognizant of self-awareness--as is everyone else.

  904. robertallen1

    "Why it's so hard to not think I believe is because we are confronted with our own mortality. thinking about this that and everything keeps that fear at bay." Talk about a double non sequitur.

  905. Daryl Hyett

    I'm an engineer and science fan; I apply logic and reason to the daily problems I face. But I'm not sure why the general public not knowing an electron is a component of the larger atom is important. I don't why folks being unaware of the reason for summer being warmer is important. It's not even important that the layman doesn't know viruses are unaffected by antibiotics. What's important is that they trust the doctor that advises the use or non use of them. The doctor is the logical scientist. The problems occur when a pseudoscientist convinces a cancer patient to give up a proven treatment to go with a treatment based on folklore. It's important when home scientists 'discover' a 'new energy source that's infinite' and can tell the world this through the internet that we are being used by those that are in the pockets of the oil barons. Similarly uninformed people then believe this and it entices hatred; that's bad.

    But the problem goes deeper. Any engineer, scientist or other logical person can see that news can be reported in a way that benefits the reporter (dihydrogen monoxide sounds really bad until you find out it's water). There are many people in the general public that believe what is fed to them. And when a government does this to gain or remain in power, it's little surprise to see that the public-at-large know so little. Take global warming as an example. We're told that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas and it's slowly destroying our planet. We're told that it's our reliance on fossile fuels that causes it. We can even see figures that show us how much CO2 we spew into the atmosphere. But having looked at both sides of the argument, my conclusion is simple; the information is inconclusive. How many people know it's a vital part of our atmosphere? That'd be a better question to ask in the telephone surveys. I've tried to be open-minded about this subject but with the convincing arguments I've found from both camps, I simply can't make up my mind so I stay open about both ideas. But most people won't do this. They'll take on what they've been told about in the press and by their leaders. Like, smoking causes lung cancer. I've no doubt that it does but this resulted in an unhappy diner in a restaurant attacking another for smoking and claiming that the smoke will, that's WILL, cause cancer in a young child that was there. He knew the truth about the risks but took it too far.

    So, quite simply, give the people only the important information and make sure no-one abuses it for their own gain and let those that want to understand science understand it without criticising those that aren't bothered. 'With great power comes great responsibility' - Unknown.

  906. robertallen1

    There's a documentary on global warming on this site. In it two groups of equally reputable scientists examine the same data and come up with two different conclusions. Therefore, like you, I'm on the fence as to this issue. One way or the other, that's what's science is all about.

    Your last paragraph is an awfully tall order. How do you expect to carry it out?

  907. Daryl Hyett

    Thankfully, I'm in no position to enable distribution of the correct information. I'm not daft; it'll never happen but if the public will absorb the information given to them (because it said so in the newspaper), the information ought to be correct. I just think some of the comments and aghast in the video because of people's ignorance, is a little harsh. Does it matter that a potential president doesn't believe in evolution? Can he make good decisions in difficult circumstances and help build a better country? Who knows, but my point is that, who cares if the someone doesn't have a grasp of science? Who cares if the popular reality TV programmes are about the paranormal? The TV stations need to make money and the people prefer to see those kinds of shows. It makes me cringe but it doesn't bother me. I imagine many of the people that enjoy watching them are excellent parents or do great work for the community.

    I suppose, we should be brought up to respect authority (so long as the authoritarians respect it, too), trust your presidential candidate or minister of parliament (so long as they are honest) and trust your doctor.

    It's an impossibly tall order, I agree.

  908. robertallen1

    It goes deeper than that. A presidential candidate who doesn't believe in evolution is one who places his religion before science--I certainly don't want this individual making important decisions.

    P.S. I can't stand the other guy either. So this is not a political statement.

  909. robertallen1

    Speaking of Simon Singh, I've been reading "Trick or Treatment." I enjoy his treatment of the placebo effect. Have you read the volume?

  910. Epicurus


  911. Mom

    Well to begin with it takes faith to believe that Higgs-Boson is a fact. if you want to talk about faith in Science, I believe that we should have that. For instance scientists have faith that the Higgs-Boson hypothetical elementary particle exists, because it is the basic particle to determine mass in particle physics. But they cannot prove it, and so now they have built the multimillion dollar Hadron collider in attempts to find it. It is still elusive. Now that is critical thinking outside the box, but it takes faith to believe in this concept that scientists have been talking about for 40 years-the same kind of faith that it takes to believe in intelligent design

  912. robertallen1

    As research is being conducted into whether the Higgs-Boson particle exists, faith has as much to do with it as the fallacious concept of thinking "outside the box." It is particularly repellent to read of attempts to debase science to the level of intelligent design.

  913. over the edge

    when you state "Well to begin with it takes faith to believe that Higgs-Boson is a fact" could you show me where a scientist claimed it was a fact (up until recently of course)? and the first couple of papers concerning the actual discovery of the higgs have passed peer review. so we have found it and others can repeat the experiments to see for themselves.
    believing in ID not only requires faith but also requires either complete ignorance of science or a misrepresentation of scientific facts in order to believe.

  914. Matt van den Ham

    We must rid our society's of cult-like thinking before true rational thinking on a national level can be attained.

    I would also like to add that terms like 'anti-Semite' and 'political correctness' are often used to dismiss logical arguments.

  915. Frank Dillinger

    The reason why scientist believe that the higgs boson exists is because there is actually a good reason to do so. The standard model has been called the theory of almost everything since it has been so successful in its predictions but it does not explain how particles gain their mass. Higgs is a key building block of this highly successful theory and also explains this problem (and other stuff too). This is the reason why they believe in its existence. What the bible says fits no scientific theory or what we know about the universe and has no good evidence to back it. To say that we believe in the existence of higgs because of faith is just stupid. The definition of faith (or one one them is) "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." Since there is actually evidence and a logical reason to believe in the existence higgs it is not faith.

  916. robertallen1

    Absolutely and even if the Higgs Boson particle were found not to exist, such a failure would only re-enforce the demonstrative nature of science, the complete antipode to faith.

  917. Dave Sinewave

    I get really bored already with when people speak about deficiency of vegan and vegetarian diets. I mean, compare what I eat with a plate of meat and potatoes. What are deficiencies in an meat-eaters diet I ask? Tell me that! I eat such a diversity of foods no meat-eater will ever taste in their life-time. So please, please, stop talking about my diet being deficient and look at your plate! Stop looking over the fence into your neighbour's backyard to resolve your personal problems, and take a look at your own backyard first! That's really pitiful. Thankfully, your doco is not entirely illogical, on the contrary - I agree with the big majority of what you've said, but sure there are some things where you go overboard with your logic and complacency with everything that public media serves you, instead of using your own logic. I actually really liked about the 70-80% of what's been said in this... this narrated 2h slideshow, but also really hated and thought of it as a complete nonsense for about 10-20%, and not entirely agreed with about 20-30%. I'm worried that you're trying to push some real garbage like GMO as "complete truth, good for you", by masking it, wrapping it in lots of true facts, using the good old "the best, most transparent lie is the one wrapped in truth". It makes me ask myself "what's your agenda?" There must be one. Nobody makes things like this for ethical reasons, not in this world where capitalism rules everyone's behaviour and actions.

  918. Luis X

    So let me get this straight:

    You liked everything except the parts that affect your beliefs (In spite of the author critizising RAW DIETS and not vegetarian/vegan diets), accuse the author of focusing on your problems to avoid solving his (thereby making assumptions about the author's character and life on the basis of your disagreement with him alone), of going "overboard with your logic" and at the same time not "using your own logic" (mutually exclusive propositions), pushing GMO (GMO was NEVER MENTIONED in the video AFAIK), and having a hidden agenda.

    ...Not sure if that's clever irony or if you're that immune to cognitive dissonance.

  919. John August Gronau

    This documentary is NOT about critical thinking. It is about the conflict between science and humbug. A documentary about critical thinking would talk about topics such as: the scientific method, the logics of Socrates, Aristotle, Frege, Russell, Husserl, and Buddhist philosophy and also, the psychology of judgement, the epistemologies of rationalism and empiricism, philosophy of the mind and judgement theory. Science is not the guardian of critical thinking, it is one expression of it. Philosophy is the source for good and universal methods of critical thinking. And it must be taught to everyone in order to snuff out humbug and the narrow application of the scientific method to problems beyond its scope.

  920. robertallen1

    This is simply a documentary about basic critical thinking skills and it does fine for what it is. No philosophy is going to assist a scientist in making a discovery. No philosophy is going to assist a mathematician in making an inroad. No philosophy is going to assist an artist in creating a masterpiece. Philosophical dissertations are not only useless, they're boring as well.

  921. John August Gronau

    This documentary does not explain basic critical thinking skills. It only speaks of a few fallacies and their application to one narrow issue. A good explanation of basic critical thinking skills is much more comprehensive, larger in scope and practical. Your statement is also false as philosophy is the father of the scientific method. Philosophy of mathematics and metaphysics has assisted countless mathematicians make inroads (I have examples) and aesthetics has been the basis of artistic education since antiquity. Philosophy of the mind and psychology are essential to the cognitive and neurological sciences. Philosophical dissertations are not useless, although as most things of importance, they are often boring. These boring dissertations have been the starting point of every major advancement in the modern age including those of these fields: politics, hard sciences, mathematics, theology, economics, literary theory and soft sciences. To assert the importance of these fields and yet deny the relevance of their foundation's methods is a foolish contradiction.

    Ignoring philosophy has been shown to bring disaster, as the destruction of the alexandrian library, the murder of hellenist philosophers and its resulting Dark Ages illustrate. While its benefits are the practical jewels of western culture (the renaissance, the reformation, industrial revolution, modern science, modern democracy, the recognition of human rights, are some small examples of philosophy's gifts). To only focus on one aspect of critical thinking within such a narrow scope is a disservice, as good judgement and wisdom (critical thinking) are necessary for the resolution of so many other issues besides the plague of pseudosciences. This is why I find this documentary so disappointing. It had potential but fell short. It promised something big but offered a smaller thing.

    Although I am not included, science turns off so many viewers, since its methods are relevant to particular types of problems sometimes irrelevant to non-scientists. By equating the scientific method with critical thinking in general, and not defining it as a type of critical thinking, it is easy to dismiss critical thinking as irrelevant to other more meaningful problems. This dismissal is wrong headed, as we have at our finger tips a trove of practical, effective, relevant and comprehensive methods of critical thinking which can actually be used to solve relevant, important non-scientific problems, while not requiring specialized knowledge such as science or mathematics. But as your ill informed statements illustrate, many dismiss these methods too as irrelevant. Well, they are relevant. They are available to anyone with a library card and a lack of apathy.

  922. Harry Dowdeswell

    who's side are you on buddy?

  923. Epicurus

    side of what? im on the side of science and logic.

  924. Devon Griffiths

    Science was constructed by, rests its foundations on, and is itself a philosophy. I think you must be using the lay notion of what philosophy is, some sort of old man with a pipe dreaming about complicated irrelevancies. This is not what philosophy is about: many of the greatest names in science, are philosophers (eg Karl Popper, who introduced the critical idea of falsifiability to modern science) because it is philosophy that constructed science and continues to develop it even in modern times (which is why I chose Popper as an example).

  925. robertallen1

    Sure the early scientists were philosohers and in writing about how the concept of evolution could be falsified empirically (i.e., disproved), Darwin, a hands-on scientist, preceded Popper's empirical falsification.

    We don't need philosophers, only those who do.

  926. Devon Griffiths

    What you aren't grasping here is that the scientific method is, itself, a product of philosophy. It's not just that the early scientists were philosophers (heck, its not just the early ones, many of today's most brilliant "hands-on" scientists are philosophers, developing not only their fields but the intellectual tools of science as well), it's that science itself is a creation of philosophy and is constantly under modification by philosophy (particularly branches like epistomology and such).
    Darwin may have had a rough instinct similar to Popper's empiricism, but it was not articulated as an underlying doctrine of science and certainly not part of the formal process of science in his day.
    No philosophers means no empiricism, no formal logics, none of the things necessary for science.

  927. robertallen1

    Modern science and its underlying empiricism were born from research and the conclusions therefrom. Evolution , physics, biology, etc. were not philosophized into existence. So you have things backwards.

    It is of no importance that Darwin did not articulate the means by which evolution could be falsified as a philosophic principle. It is simply enough that he articulated it and more important, that his articulation was based on hands-on experience and physical evidence, not the armchair cogitations of some philosopher.

    Newly-obtained evidence, not philosophy, is responsible for modification of science. In no way can philosophy claim responsibility for quantum mechanics which came about through physical observation, as did particle physics, as did laser technology.

    Philosophy has contributed nothing worth mentioning to any modern science and the philosophies of those scientists who have made major contributions are nothing compared to the contributions themselves. All that matters is their accomplishments--and philosophy is as much an accomplishment as reviewing a movie.

  928. Devon Griffiths

    Wrong. Empiricism is not a product of experimental "research", it is a direct product of epistemology (a branch of philosophy concerned with what constitutes real knowledge). Aristotle was the first to advocate it, not because of the results of any experiment, but as part of a work on the validity of statements or arguments called the Organon, which is most certainly a philosophical work, and has absolutely nothing to do with any experiments. Read it for yourself and see. That's exactly where it came from - not vague assertions that it came from unnamed "experiments." You don't know what you're talking about, apparently. Which experiments? What research? Who? These things you don't know; because there are none. You just made up the idea that they came from mystery "research" because that's what you want to believe.

    You think like a witchdoctor; no evidence (or look for evidence to support a conclusion you made before you had any), just make stuff up that you want to be true, and pretend you know what you're talking about whether you do or not.

    "Newly obtained evidence" does not now, and never has, modify the way science is done, the process of science. It only alters the products of science - not processes like empiricism, the scientific method, falsfiability, or any other processes. You have confused the products and the process - it's like saying that factories are created by the things they make, rather than the other way around. This is most apparent when you rattle off the *products* of science (evolution, physics etc), apparently incapable of comprehending a difference between them and the *process* of science. What experiment, exactly, created the modern scientific method? None. It too was a product of philosophy. Aristotle proposed a type of empiricism in ancient times, but it had problems because it was based in syllogism and therefore could not establish anything with certainty.

    Francisco Sanches (also a philosopher) discovered the problem, and Francis Bacon (another philosopher) worked out a solution to the problem of Aristotle's syllogistic empiricism in the philosophical treatise Novum Organum (new method) which was the foundation of the scientific method for several centuries.

    Until Popper (philosopher) came along and revolutionized modern science by saying that induction did not exist in science, it was all deductive, operating by a simple process of trial and error which he formalized into the concept of falsifiability.

    But you can claim it came from unspecified "research" if it makes you feel better.

  929. robertallen1

    Nonsense, as I stated, the empiricsm of science came from research and the conclusions therefrom, e.g., the invention of the wheel, the use of fire, the development of the slingshot , bow and arrow. The process of science simply evolved through trial and error. All the philosophers did was try to codify it--nothing more.

    So what if Popper stated that science was all deductive? Any hands-on scientist worth his salt at the time and previously knew this. It did not lead to any new scientific discoveries nor did the scientific methodology. Francis Bacon's solution to Aristotle's syllogistic empiricism adds nothing to physics, biology, chemistry, astronomy etc. It also doesn't create vaccines, cure disease or facilitate research, just some of things that science is known for.

    Darwin, Jenner, Teller, Pasteur, Salk, etc., i.e., the people who did, contributed more to science than any philosopher--and it wasn't through their philosophy. he only people who deserve credit are the doers, not the laid-back thinkers.

    In short, science doesn't need philosophy or philosophers. It does just fine on its own.

  930. Devon Griffiths

    Empiricism did not exist in any formal sense at the time of the discovery of the wheel, fire, etc. These were not the product of "scientific research" either - they were accidental discoveries by primitive, superstitious peoples with little or no understanding of formal logics, who couldn't distinguish between empiricism, and supernatural beliefs. To compare this to modern scientific experimentation is like saying a monkey who uses a stick to catch ants, is a scientist.

    The first glimmer of empiricism began with Aristotle. Only in trailer parks is there any dispute about this.

    To say that the scientific method did not have a hand in scientific discovery is utterly ridiculous.

    Your characterization of Francis Bacon, Popper, etc as "laid back thinkers" and not "doers" further illustrates a cartoonish understanding of the history of science, suited perhaps to some creationist drivel but having no place in any journals of science - and, thanks to peer review, you will never find it in one.

  931. robertallen1

    Again, nonsense. Back in primitive times, everything could be characterized as an accidental discovery, empirical in the sense that it was hard evidence. Then came further understanding and refinements, many times by trial and error, but also empirical. This is no different in nature than the discovery and refinement of quantum mechanics, microwaves, particle physics, etc. And we didn't need philosophers to accomplish this. Empiricsm was around long before Aristotle who did no more than attempt to codify what went before him. He did not invent it.

    Now tell me just what direct role philosophy played in medicine, physics, biology, quantum mechanics and technology other than occupying the peanut gallery?

    The history of science is the history of doers, not philosophers.

  932. Devon Griffiths

    The history of science does include many philosophers like Francis Bacon, Aristotle, and Popper, whether you like it or not, and no matter how many times you chant your mantra about "doers", gleaned, I suspect with some certainty, from a particular episode of The Beverly Hillbillies (one of Jed Clampett's lines, I believe). Any introductory course on the subject will not fail to teach about Aristotle, Bacon, Popper etc, in any college or university on the entire planet. Maybe you can start a campaign to have them erased from the curriculum. You can start by emailing the History of Science Department at Harvard at this address: hsdept@fas.harvard.edu and you can tell them that neither Aristotle, Francis Bacon, or Karl Popper are part of the history of science. Or perhaps you can rewrite their textbooks for them, to edit out all the philosophers, and replace them with a few lines from popular sitcoms about migrant bumpkins. I'm sure you know more about the subject than everyone in the world who teaches it professionally.


  933. robertallen1

    While methodology is paramount, it was developed by doers, i.e., scientists themselves, not philosophers who merely sat back and smugly wrote about it and while you do not need to use strict methodology to discover fire, you certainly need to be able to put it to good use and this methodology comes about through one thing, pragmatism, i.e., what works--and for that, the last thing needed is a philosopher.

    Once again, tell me just what direct role philosophy played in medicine, physics, biology and technology other than occupying the peanut gallery? And by the way, the methodology employed in quantum mechanics was developed by the scientists (the doers) themselves, not some philosopher.

    Ludwig von Beethoven didn't need philosophers of music to write the Ninth Symphony. Alfred Hitchcock did not need philosophers of cinema to turn out Psycho. Miguel Cervantes did not need philosophers of literature to compose Don Quixote, Pablo Picasso did not need philosophers to paint Guernica and scientists do not need philosohers to assist them in their discoveries and inventions. In short, philosophers are no more than the tin can on the tail of the dog.

    The doers are the thinkers and the thinkers are the doers. And doing might just be something you struggle with because you lack the ability to perform.

  934. Devon Griffiths

    Everyone "does" so "doers" is a nonsense term.

    Methodology was developed by people like Francis Bacon (ie the scientific METHOD). Many other methods were developed by philosophers. The entire field of formal logics was developed by philosophers as a method to determine the truth-value of a statement; today, it forms the backbone of some of our highest technologies such as computer sciences, and it is used in every form of valid methodology which exists in any field of science. Physics, biology, all of them.

    This is very, very simple. It's not that hard to understand.

    It is the history of science that is taught in every university on the planet - but it's hardly rocket science, all it requires is the most minimal amount of common sense. It simply isn't that difficult to grasp that the scientific method is, well, a method that is used in science. The name should probably clue you in.

    If you have some revolutionary new theory that says that the likes of Francis Bacon played no part in the development of science, and that "methodology is paramount" but the entire scientific method doesn't count as a method somehow, go publish it and submit it to peer review. But I can tell you, you'll get laughed out of the room as the crackpot you apparently are.

    I bid you adieu and good luck crossing the pons asinorum - you'll need it.

  935. robertallen1

    You still haven't answered the question: what direct role did philosophy play in medicine, physics, biology and technology ("formal logics" doesn't cut it) other than occupying the peanut gallery, just like movie and music critics. Any scientist (doer) worth his salt doesn't need a philosopher to tell him what to look for or how to look for it.

    Now, where did I state that the scientific method doesn't count as a method at all? I resent the misrepresentation.

  936. Max Nafa

    it all started as philosophy ( eg. England: Natural Philosophy) the theory about atoms was proposed in ancient Rome by a philosopher name Lucretius. In ancient Greece, (egypt. the library of Alexandria) the first steam engine was created by the philosopher named Heron. I can go on and on.

    p.s. you have not attended the University. if you did you would probably resist from making such unintelligent arguments.
    P.P. s. PhD stands for what?

  937. robertallen1

    Lucretius was not a philosopher; he was a poet of whom we have only one work "De Rerum Ratura" and about whom we know nothing except for a brief line from St. Jerome. And no, atomic theory was propounded Democritus and Epicureans who lived several centuries before Lucretius.

    Heron was not a philosopher, but a mathematician and engineer out of whose extant works not one is on philosophy.

    In short, you don't know what you're talking about. In short, you seriously need an education. In short, so what oi Ph.D. stands for doctor of philosophy. It is simply a monniker, as is natural philosohy, and nothing more.

  938. thisismynamereally

    You are both absolute idiots. Yes, the Greeks developed the concept of atoms ('cannot be cut', from a-tom). Which is an example of the importance that the critical and analytical processes of philosophy have played in the development of modern scientific method. Without philosophy of science (amongst many other areas of study), we would never have developed ideas such as positivism (early Wittgenstein, Russell, Ayer, the Vienna Circle) and the subsequent falsificationalism (notably Popper).

    The process of critical analysis, reasoning and everything else that has underpinned and propelled science throughout history has come from the unfathomably broad disciplines of philosophy. Does that mean all philosophy is good or useful? No. But neither does the fact that there is bad, useless or even damaging philosophy (particularly the esoteric guff that filled the void during the Dark Ages and the subsequent confusion and drivel of dualist literalism) mean that philosophy hasn't been fundamentally instrumental to the furtherance of scientific progress. More to the point, to think that the job is done and that there'll be no further engagement between the two intellectual schools is either grossly naive, fantastically arrogant or, most likely, both.

    In short, don't call people ignorant when you don't know what you're talking about. Even if, as is the case here, they definitely are.

  939. robertallen1

    I ask again, what direct role has philosophy played in medicine, physics, biology and technology other than occupying the peanut gallery, just like movie and music critics. Any scientist (doer) worth his salt doesn't need a philosopher to tell him what to look for or how to look for it. Critical analysis and the scientific method are simply the results of trial and error and the so-called philosophy of science is merely the tin can on the tail of the dog, i.e., after the fact.

    Doers are the only ones who've made any real contributions, not those who merely sit back and think about what the doers have done.

    In short, we don't need philosophy and it is doubtful that we ever did.

  940. Milosc

    This film seems more about self-esteem, than critical thinking

    It's one thing to search for answers, to vet 'reality' from it's smallest to greatest, but another to sit in a tree and throw apples at someone else's.

    This is philosophically parasitic one-upmanship. I was expecting more, although anyone with a mouth can coin a phrase

  941. robertallen1

    With critical thinking comes the right sort of self-esteem. So the two go hand in hand. You've said nothing so far; therefore, please enumerate which parts of the documentary were in error?

  942. thisismynamereally

    They didn't come after the fact though, that's just an unfounded assertion you've made up and is demonstrably untrue. You're clearly hilariously ignorant of the history of philosophy in general, let alone of how it relates to science in particular. Critical analysis - based on various forms of logic - and the scientific method are both products of philosophical thought experiments; what you derisively call 'trial and error'.

    Anyway, I'll not waste my time trying to convince you blue isn't red, since you're obviously determined to do so regardless of the actual evidence.

  943. robertallen1

    And no, trial and error implies direct hands-on, not some worthless "philosphical thought experiments," which gives it far more value than any after-the-fact codifying philosophy or philosophers. To claim otherwise is to put the cart before the horse.

    You still haven't answered my question as to what direct role philosophy has played in medicine, physics, biology and technology other than occupying the peanut gallery, Once again, any scientist (doer) worth his salt doesn't need a philosopher to instruct him on the scientific method which he has already learned (or should have learned) through practical application.

    If you think I'm wrong, then prove me wrong--and not with mere assertions.

  944. Milosc

    I did. You missed it. You also created a strawman assertion

    (Now, was that "critical thinking", or simply 'criticizing someone else's thinking'? You figure it out)

  945. robertallen1

    And just where did you enumerate which parts of the documentary were in error and just what is my strawman assertion? If you can't answer, you are simply a liar.

    P.S. Part of critical thinking is criticizing someone else's thinking.

  946. skamatics

    roberttallen1, what in all heavens are you talking about? -"trial and error implies direct hands-on, not some worthless philosphical thought experiments".

    So how the hell did Einstein develop the theory of relativity? Through "direct hands-on trial and error"!?! It was his ability to abstract new concepts & thoughts- aka philosophy- exploring new concepts.

    You fail to understand that philosophy has preceded scientific discovery at every moment of time. Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. You can't physically touch new ideas as you claim happens with discovery- "trial and error implies direct hands-on". Haha

  947. robertallen1

    Einstein did not need philosophy to develop the theory of relativity, any more than Niels Bohr and Peter Debye needed it to develop quantum mechanics. The mathematics and physics behind these concepts are clearly hands on.

    How about telling me how philosophy preceded the invention of the wheel, the lighning rod, the incandescent light bulb, the PC, the small pox and polio vaccines or the concept of natural selection (evolution). As a matter of fact, how about telling me how philosophy preceded any major scientific breakthrough.

    You're right "Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe." This makes it clearly and directly hands-on which means we don't need philosophy.

  948. skamatics

    It's not about "needing" philosophy. Philosophy is abstract thinking which we now use as a tool for scientific discovery.

    Bob the caveman was told that everything that could be invented was already invented. Bob didn't listen and used his abstract thinking skills. He looked at nature and imagined new concepts. Bob the caveman used philosophy as one of his tools to create the wheel. Yes, he used hands on direct experimentation...but he had to create the concepts in his mind first before directing his hands to follow.

  949. robertallen1

    If you mean he might have needed to engage in some preparatory thought, perhaps--but that's not philosophy which by your own description is abstract thinking, while Bob's was direct. If I think about the best way to express a thought before uttering or writing it, I don't consider that philosophizing.

    And just what scientific discoveries has philosophy directly engendered?

  950. Milosc

    Wait a minute: "Critical thinkers" are critical thinkers

    "Skeptics" are philosophically parasitic armchair jockeys, who whip insults behind the gown of ignorance/emotion/consensus logic, to grant closure and boost their self-esteem

    One starts from scratch, the other scratches what you start. Know the difference

  951. robertallen1

    As your post is merely non-responsive gibberish, I can only assume that you are at least partially dyslexic. Therefore, I repeat, just where did you enumerate which parts of the documentary were in error and just what is my strawman assertion? If you can't answer, you are simply a liar.

    P.S. Part of critical thinking is criticizing someone else's thinking.

  952. Robert Koning

    Just a little thing about the second part; if you put a cut onion next to your bed can be of help when you got a cold. The same effect that makes your eyes tear also makes your airways free over night to help you sleep better, thus gaining more resistance to further illness. Maybe this is where the myth came from that an uncut onion cures the flu.

  953. awful_truth

    While I understand the concerns raised by the documentary's narrator, (raising the level of intelligence) I have some concerns regarding some of his own assertions.
    1) He raised the issue that there is only 4 U.S congressman sitting in political office that have a scientific education. Since by his own admission, only 10% of Harvard graduates knew why summer is hotter than winter, than a scientific degree is meaningless regarding politics, as is apparently a Harvard education all together. (save your money!)
    2) A poster in the doc stating that not drinking alcohol is about the worst thing you can do for your health. (followed by, - okay, here's one I can get behind) Apparently, he doesn't mind pandering to something he supports,(lack of critical thinking) yet chastizes the media , and politicians for pandering to the ignorant public. Perhaps they are ignorant because they are all drunks. (alcohol and intelligence do not go hand in hand, which is why it is legal - keep the public stupid, distracted, and uninformed)
    3) The narrator implies that those in control of politics, media, etc are religiously indoctrinated.
    The awful truth is that this documentary is anti-religious in nature, (athiest agenda) and attempts to hide behind the logic of science, as much as the religious hide creationism behind the term intelligent design. For proof of this mentality, just read the blogs below from the other viewers. The bottom line is science will never explain everything, and just because something can't be proven, does not mean it doesn't exist. (god, telepathy, ghosts, etc)
    On a final note: Philosophy is the precursor to creativity, imagination, and morality. Blogging the idea that Einstein did not need philosophy to create relativity, is rediculous. Everyone is who they are because of their choices, and experiences in the complete, and to remove one thread from Einstein's background would unravel the tapestry of his life. (no relativity) Then again, Einstein did believe in god, but was not religious. Those who think in black and white terms ( the extremes) will never comprehend this mindset, Few things in life are extreme, with the vast majority being a colorful grey mixture for consideration, requiring conscious thought (critical thinking) over reaction. (fight or flight - A or Z, nothing in between) In my opinion, the creator of this documentary is critical, just not thinking! Live long and prosper everyone.

  954. awful_truth

    @Milosc: Good words, impressive thinking. Live long, and prosper Milosc!

  955. awful_truth

    @skamatics: Well said, good elaboration. Live long, and prosper with philosophy!

  956. batvette

    1. I don't think Einstein believed in God, in fact I'm pretty sure he made he clear he did not in a letter to another scientist before his death.

    Of course this is just a nit pick as Einstein is not the topic here, I thought you might like to adjust your facts base if you were wrong.

    2. Add to the list of scientifically unproven things, "love".

    Adding if you'd like to take critical thinking to extremes, look at the skeptics forum of the James Randi Foundation, the guy who's long had a $1million challenge for anyone who can prove a paranormal event.
    While I approve of his underlying agenda of revealing charlatans and frauds who exploit the vulnerable, their demand for facts in the name of "science" becomes itself fraudulent and just plain mean spirited and close minded.

  957. robertallen1

    And what makes you think that philosophy is the precursor to creativity, imagination and morality? Are you saying that without philosophy Beethoven could not have composed, Picasso could not have painted, Cervantes could not have written? Complete rubbish. Are you saying that philosophy was needed to establish a system of morals? Nonsense. You've put the cart before the horse and as usual gotten everything wrong.

    And spare us your statements about Einstein's theology debunked by so many on this site so long ago--and by the way, Einstein did not create relativity. While you're at it, spare us your abortive attempts at justification of the existence of god, telepathy and ghosts. If there's no hard evidence, forget it.

    Science might not be able to explain everything, but religion explains nothing. Once again, you've clearly demonstrate that you do not know what you're talking about.

  958. robertallen1

    And criticism of their demand for facts in the name of science is intellectually pathetic.

  959. Epicurus

    "1) He raised the issue that there is only 4 U.S congressman sitting in political office that have a scientific education. Since by his own admission, only 10% of Harvard graduates knew why summer is hotter than winter, than a scientific degree is meaningless regarding politics, as is apparently a Harvard education all together. (save your money!)"

    Harvard is not mainly or only a science school so not all of those grads were science grads. most could have been law or business.

    "2) A poster in the doc stating that not drinking alcohol is about the worst thing you can do for your health. (followed by, - okay, here's one I can get behind) Apparently, he doesn't mind pandering to something he supports,(lack of critical thinking) yet chastizes the media , and politicians for pandering to the ignorant public. Perhaps they are ignorant because they are all drunks. (alcohol and intelligence do not go hand in hand, which is why it is legal - keep the public s*upid, distracted, and uninformed)"

    as much as i dont enjoy alcohol, there are PLENTY of smart people who drink alcohol. moderation is the key.

    "3) The narrator implies that those in control of politics, media, etc are religiously indoctrinated.
    The awful truth is that this documentary is anti-religious in nature, (athiest agenda)"

    the atheist agenda? im an atheist and am unaware of any agenda. if someone feels this documentary is anti-religious, it can only be because they recognize religion to be illogical and irrational.

    "The bottom line is science will never explain everything, and just because something can't be proven, does not mean it doesn't exist. (god, telepathy, ghosts, etc)"

    fairies, lepechauns, invisible teapots, ya just because something cant be proven doesnt mean it doesnt exist. however you would be an idiot to believe they do without any evidence.
    even if science cant explain everything, its the only thing that can explain ANYTHING.

    all you did was disagree with the documentary as soon as it went against one of your pre-held beliefs. thats fine. its called cognitive dissonance.

  960. Epicurus

    how is it closed minded to demand evidence?

  961. batvette

    " So please, please, stop talking about my diet being deficient and look at your plate! Stop looking over the fence into your neighbour's backyard to resolve your personal problems, and take a look at your own backyard first! "

    Gimme a break, you act as if it isn't the Vegan side doing the preaching and moralizing 90% of the time.
    As for "deficiencies" think about this... virtually every vegan who says "humans don't need meat in their diets, they can get all their nutrients without meat products" says so as an adult who converted at the earliest in their teens, if not when they were adults. Yep, you could probably fit in a room all the Vegans who had strict Vegans as parents and raised them on a Vegan diet.
    Furthermore a Vegan diet is very expensive, and replacing necessary meat products for growing children would most likely outstrip the agricultural capacity of any society.
    Basically, a Vegan diet is great for yuppies who like hollow self righteous posturing! It's not for folks who live in reality.
    Finally, about that moral aspect thing... you do know lions and tigers and bears... eat people? (I do hear they like Vegans the most!)

  962. batvette

    Haha, I hope you realize that politicians are professional liars, and there is a high probability a candidate may say he is religious but secretly has atheist or agnostic beliefs.
    (I can't believe how many people, at election time, obsess over a politician being a liar or being honest. Why do you think the two most common transition careers for these people are actors and lawyers? Both professional liars? Any politician who can be considered honest is really just the best at lying! And pity the constituents of the congressional district who really does vote in an honest person who won't steal or take bribes. When he gets to Washington their district will be cut out of all kinds of projects and federal money because their boy won't play ball the way the game is played there.)

  963. awful_truth

    Hi batvette: I am extremely well versed regarding Einstein, and yes he did believe in god, but was not religious. Technically, this made him a deist. (not a theist, not an athiest) Don't take my word for it, truly research it yourself. Since there is quotes from Einstein covering the entire spectrum, only an indepth study of his life removes the confusion.(avoid blogger opinions regarding this issue) Einstein was also a pacifist,(refused to be labelled otherwise) yet offended absolute pacifists with his acceptance of force to bring down the Nazi's. (the nuances of a complex man)
    As far as the rest of your comments, I completely agree with you. There is much closed mindedness surrounding all of us. It is mean spirited, and yes fraudulent(ulterior motives) under the guise of science, and the root causes are always ignorance, and intolerance. Just look at your attempt to enlighten someone regarding the history of philosophy and science. ( exercise in futility)
    Now, you and I may know that philosophy brought about the underpinnings of scientific methodology, but others seem to have contempt for that which preceeded what we accept today. (arm chair critics living off the backs of those who came before them) You also see this regarding science, and religion. Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, were all devoutly religious, and did not have this internal conflict between science, and faith. (opposite sides of the same coin, trying to explain existance - proof/faith) The battle was external, and had to do with power, and control, much as it does today.(the point of this documentary - science good, religion bad) Ultimately, the drive for absolute certainty regarding everything leads to close mindedness, because few things are certain. The limitless potential of possibilities is traded for the comfort (security) of limited certainty. (very limited at that) Perhaps this explains why these people are incapable of love or compassion, because there is no proof it exists, so they deny the possibility from entering their lives. Best wishes batvette, and live long and prosper.

  964. robertallen1

    As has been clearly demonstrated time and time again, you are not well-versed regarding Einstein and your statements that he believed in god have been totally debunked by a number of posters far more informed than you.

    And no, philosophy did not bring about the underpinnings of scientific methodology; that was simply the down-to-earth practice of science. Philosophy was merely the codifier or rather the tin can on the tail of the dog.

    Copernicus (note spelling), Galileo and Newton lived in a completely different time when religion dominated. Now thankfully it doesn't, but one way or the other, are they remembered, admired and respected for their theology or their science? Remember, Newton believed in all sorts of nonsense such as the philosopher's stone and alchemy. Comparing them to the present and all that's been discovered their time is unfair to them and completely dishonest.

    I'll take the limited certainty of what can be or has been proved using the highest possible standards to "the limitless potential of possibilities" embraced in the groundless and the unsubstantiated. And by the way, there is scientific proof of the existence of what are known as love and compassion, only you haven't read up on it--and you are responsible for your own ignorance.

    In short, you're as phony as ever and as phony as they come.

  965. awful_truth

    1) I do not have a Harvard education, and I knew every answer to every question that was asked on this so called documentary, in it's entirety. This has nothing to do with intellligence, or what types of courses Harvard offers to it's students. It has to do with a passion for understanding life in the comprehensive!
    2) Yes, alcohol is not bad, in moderation. That explains all the drunk driving, domestic violence, and shootings that take place around the world, in unmoderate levels.
    3) If your an atheist, and you don't see an atheist agenda, than perhaps that explains why the religious people don't see a religious agenda either.
    4) Have you ever seen an alien? Do you believe in the entire universe, that life on earth is all there is? So, according to your methodology, anyone who believes in aliens is an i*iot without evidence. How about the mathematics of the law of probability. (scientific, yes/no?)

    As I stated in my original blog, I understood the narrator's concerns, but had several issues with some of his assertions. The fact I even questioned any of it, went against your pre-held beliefs regarding your own athiesm. (A dog smells his own crap first) In your words, it is called cognitive dissonance! Live long, and prosper Epicurus!

  966. robertallen1

    Now, which of the narrator's assertions did you have a problem with?

    P.S. Anyone who believes in aliens without hard evidence is an i*iot--and mathematics and the laws of the probability about which you displayed an appalling ignorance have nothing to do with it.

  967. awful_truth

    @littlebob: It must scare you when someone advises others to research things for themselves in depth, instead of taking you, and your friends nonsense as gospel! I give you this. You are an authority, but only on what it means to be rude, mobbing, and narrow minded.

  968. robertallen1

    And you're an authority on what it means to be ignorant, a real authority.

    P.S. My name is Robert, but you're too benighted to understand this.

  969. Epicurus

    your first point has nothing to do with what i was saying.

    2. what about the many many many more people who drink alcohol without those problems?

    3. there is no religious agenda.

    4. you are an i**** if you insist that intelligent life exists. if you admit that its possible since we know that life could form naturally, then you are not an i****.

    "The fact I even questioned any of it, went against your pre-held beliefs regarding your own athiesm"

    this doesnt make sense.

  970. awful_truth

    1) Where did I insist that intellligent life exists??? I asked you the following:
    "Have you ever seen an alien? Do you believe in the entire universe, that life on earth is all there is? So, according to your methodology, anyone who believes in aliens is an i*iot without evidence. How about the mathematics of the law of probability. (scientific, yes/no?) - You know, life on earth, but no where else?
    All you did was twist my words, and avoid the question.
    2) Your original statement: "all you did was disagree with the documentary as soon as it went against one of your pre-held beliefs. (implying what pre-held belief?)
    My response:
    " I understood the narrator's concerns, but had several issues with some of his assertions. The fact I even questioned any of it, went against your pre-held beliefs regarding your own athiesm." ( I didn't troll like you, I gave a clear response)
    Your retort:" this doesn't make sense. "
    If you can't see the comparison, it is do to hipocracy. (lack of critical thinking!)
    The awful truth is, I blog to convey information, and to give opinion. (as do all of us) Without a doubt, the largest troller in disqus is littlebob, who I have not responded to in months because he continuously leaves insulting gibberish on my dashboard, and lost his mind recently because he doesn't like me advising other bloggers to research things for themselves. (good advice at any time, for anyone) He finally succeeded in getting a response from me!
    Since I am capable of having this communication respectfully with everyone, (except apparently you and with certanty, littlebob) is why I don't respond to his comments, or your's for that matter, regarding other people. If you are incapable (as a moderator) of moderating yourself accordingly, please refrain from involving yourself in my discussions in the future!

  971. robertallen1

    In case you didn't know it, this is a public forum and you will be responded to in any matter the responder deems fit whether you like it or not. Don't try to tell anyone what to do.
    Now, which of the narrator's assertions did you have a problem with--or do you know?

  972. Epicurus

    well i can tell this is going to be hell for me since your reading comprehension skills are limited. I never said you did insist intelligence exists elsewhere in the universe. instead of the word YOU i perhaps should have used the word ONE. i see this is going to be difficult.

    so lets try your question again.

    ""Have you ever seen an alien? Do you believe in the entire universe, that life on earth is all there is? So, according to your methodology, anyone who believes in aliens is an i*iot without evidence. How about the mathematics of the law of probability. (scientific, yes/no?) - You know, life on earth, but no where else?"

    I have never seen an alien.

    I dont think its likely that we are the only life in the universe given what we know about life and the elements in the universe. but i dont know so would never insist it.

    anyone who INSISTS there are aliens is being an id*ot.

    law of probability is a good position to take when thinking about life in the universe, but acknowledging we dont have all the variables available to us, we would be id*ots to insist that we know there is life elsewhere in the universe at this moment.

    2) no it doesnt make sense because i said you disagreed with the documentary as soon as it went against your beliefs.but when you said " The fact I even questioned any of it, went against your pre-held beliefs regarding your own athiesm" that sentence doesnt make sense. the fact you questioned the documentary went against MY pre-held beliefs regarding atheism? first off how would you question the doc based on my pre-held beliefs of atheism, secondly what are my pre-held beliefs about atheism?

    what exactly about my comments do you find so distasteful that you would tell me to stop communicating with you?
    I didnt say anything remotely rude to you. you are just trying to now hide behind the victim card because you know that you have essentially stopped making any valid points.

    tell me where i should moderate my comments please.

  973. robertallen1

    I'm glad you mention the laws of probability--not that there are any--for resorting to this fiction is one of the biggest mistakes creationists make--and, of course, people like Awful_Truth buy it. Not only do they think they are playing with a full deck when they're actually not, but they also fail to take into account what they're dealing with and thus come up with "figures" which are meaningless and idiotic--why is why people such as Dembski are held in such low esteem by mainstream mathematicians.
    Although you are a moderator, please do not moderate your comments. While Awful_Truth complains so bitterly about this website and its "policies," he still posts here.

  974. Epicurus

    Its amazing that he would have a problem with my comments. I felt i was being pretty nice and tame.

  975. robertallen1

    I'm never nice and tame, but I thought you were.
    Could you please do me a favor? As you are a biology major, would you please take a look at "Refuting Kenneth R. Miller on Chromosome 2" on You Tube (there's also a sequel, believe it or not) and provide me with your thoughts. I would really appreciate it. Thank you.

  976. Achems_Razor

    What do you mean when you say "How about the mathematics of the law of probability" What mathematics are you referring to? there are some theories of probability, are you referring to the chaos theory, or Feynman "sum over histories" theory? or Shrodinger's equation?


  977. awful_truth

    @Epicurus: Out of respect for you, I will make one last attempt to bridge our impasse. First, what exact comments do I find distasteful?
    1)"well i can tell this is going to be hell for me since your reading comprehension skills are limited". (you don't think that is remotely rude?)
    2) "all you did was disagree with the documentary as soon as it went against one of your pre-held beliefs. thats fine. its called cognitive dissonance." ( you implied first to support your condescending remark. I responded that your position is also based from a pre-held conception, except I named it - athiesm)
    3) The key word was not " one ', or ' you ', but the word, ' intelligent ', which you added to my original statement. I didn't question the doc based upon your pre-held belief. I questioned your response to my blog based upon your preconception of my pre-held belief, which you didn't identify.
    4) " I am an athiest, and I am unaware of any atheist agenda. " and , "There is no religious agenda". (for the record Epicurus, there is always an agenda. eg. Forwarding one's ideology, looking for support, the search for the truth, the sharing of information, and defending one's position are all agendas. It just so happens that some are direct, some hidden, some malicious, etc, etc. In my opinion, to deny this, is beneath you, and your level of intelligence)
    Now, your last blog to me, (previous items aside) you have now finally answered what I queried you, which allows us to move forward.
    So, we agree that there is a strong likelyhood that life exists elsewhere, we just can't prove it with certainty. We both agree that the law of probability is a good place to start. We can also probably agree that all the variables are not likely taken into consideration, because we may not know what they all are. What we can work with, (accepted theorems) are:

    1) The law of large numbers (Jacob Bernoulli's Theorem)
    2) The law of averages
    3) The Drake equation

    For these reasons, most reputable scientists now agree that life in the universe is likely quite abundant,(even the Catholic church now admits this, who says that miracles can't happen) however, confirmation is restrained by 2 factors. The first is the vast distances between star systems prevents any intelligent species from being aware of one another. The 2nd is the life expectancy of any inteliigent species is unknown. The only one we are aware of, (assuming we think humanity is intelligent) is ourselves, and we have only been here for a mere moment regarding the life of the universe. (13.7 billion years) Thus, to believe in aliens is not id*tic, it is a choice based upon our limited knowledge of the day. In fact, to think they don't exist, would be no different then supporting the idea of the virgin birth. (highly improbable, but it would only have to happen once) Even though exceptions to the rule do happen, I tend to be skeptical against that which is most improbable.
    Now, regarding the doc, (learning to think critical) I stated that I understood his premise behind it, (I get it) however, some of the assertions are not based upon crtical thinking, only just being critical. eg. religious politicians, versus scientific politicians. If someone has concerns regarding people in politics, that is fine. I like the idea of separation of church, and state. However, the solution does not rest in scientifc politicians. People of good character (and intelligence) come in many flavors. (most don't end up as politicians. - my opinion)
    Since my value of intelligence is not based soley upon scientific knowledge, I am not limited from the idea of possibilities, or what they may have to offer. eg: philosophy, creativity, etc. It also allows me to see a more comprehensive picture beyond the binary black, and white. A or Z, nothing in between thinking.
    It is precisely for this reason that when someone states Albert Einstein is an athiest, I know with certainty they have not spent the time to truly study the man. Even Vlatko (administrator) and I could agree that he was neither a theist, or an athiest. ( a pantheist, or a deist) Believed in god, just not religion. In fact, Einstein's own pre-conceived notion regarding god being perfect would not allow him to accept quantum mechanics, (god doesn't play dice with the universe) Since perfection is sterile, (only nothing is perfect) he should have understood this. As you so eloquently put it with another blogger, "we live off the backs of the giants who came before us". Only from studying Einstein, could I learn from his mistakes!
    This leads to why I will not try an convince anyone, of something they will never understand, because they refuse to examine that which makes them uncomfortable.
    I am more than happy to exchange ideas with you Epicurus, as long as the delivery is respectable. ( I can agree to disagree) If people wish to make sarcastic comments regarding a doc, that is fine with me, but when it becomes a personal attack, all it does is bring retaliation, (me included) and then no one is listening, in which case, someone has to call an end to it, because it is no longer productive. This is not to " hide behind the victim card ". It just means I have better things to do with my time.
    As a moderator, you should be aware that just because someone isn't cursing, doesn't mean they aren't still being offensive. I have read many comments while refraining from blogging, and have noticed certain people no longer wish to blog here, if they are being mobbed for having different ideas. I respect you, Achems_Razor, and over_the _edge for your intelligence, but when the moderators are calling Mother Theresa a c**t, or protect the biggest troll around, (you know who I am talking about) you lose credibility. (Time to reign in your lapdog)
    Of course, all of this is just my opinion, and you can take it for what it is worth. Best wishes to you Epicurus, and live long and prosper!

  978. awful_truth

    1) The law of large numbers (Jacob Bernoulli's Theorem)
    2) The law of averages
    3) The Drake equation
    In my opinion, I would start here. Live long, and prosper !

  979. Achems_Razor

    Fine, but still does not answer my question, what math in particular are you referring too? write down the actual math in question and decipher the conclusions to us, the end results how it applies to your post.

    Just giving a number of links does not answer my question, or are you doing "quantum woo" again?

  980. robertallen1

    "Since my value of intelligence is not based soley upon scientific knowledge, I am not limited from the idea of possibilities, or what they may have to offer. eg: philosophy, creativity, etc. It also allows me to see a more comprehensive picture beyond the binary black, and white. A or Z, nothing in between thinking." From your posts, the value of your intelligence is depressed in proportion to the high opinion you obviously hold of yourself, an opinion not shared by a number of the more knowledgable posters--and rightly so. One way or the other, this statement serves as a succinct explanation for the vacuity and pretension making up most of your posts, not to mention the attempts at deception exmplified by your often debunked comments on Einstein which you keep reiterating ad nauseum and to no avail.

    Possibility means nothing; proof means everything and because you happen to imagine something does not imply that it's worthwhile pursuing--that's where discrimination (probability) comes in . And speaking of possibility/probability, where did Epicurus state that the "laws of probability" is a good start and just which reputable scientists "now agree that life in the universe is likely quite abundant?" Or is this just another one of your many groundless assertions--and yes, believing in aliens without any proof other than your limited understanding of the mathematcis of probability (and there is such widespread disagreement on the values to be given to the parameters of the Drake equation as to render it useless, so don't try to snow us there) is idiotic. Probability does not establish the existence of alien life; hard evidence does.

    It's obvious to any reader of basic intelligence, except apparently you, that Epicurus meant HIDDEN agenda--I guess your failure to pick up on this was behind your pedestrian expostulation on the "search for truth," etc.

    For someone who has a lot of complaints about the site, the posters and the moderators, who cries out for the respect to which he feels entitled and who avers having better things to do with his time, you still keep posting. If you are discomfited by the responses you receive or the menner in which you are treated, you are I'm sure cognizant of your option.

    P.S. Mother Theresa was a c**t.

  981. Achems_Razor

    You are trying to libel the good name of the mods, and by doing so, are slandering the reputation of TDF in general. I personally have not called anyone a c**t or protected any trolls, any and all trolls are consistently banned from TDF, so if you cannot offer any proof of your allegations, I suggest you rescind those type of remarks.

    Whatever I called Mother Teresa is from links on the web relaying info regarding as such.

  982. docoman

    One thing you need to remember when thinking about the maths of probabilities, each 'flip of the coin' is unrelated/ independent to any other flip.
    It seems you're forgetting this when using it to talk about alien life. You could calculate it's probable you'll find life on 50, 60 or even 90% of viable planets, it doesn't mean anything other then 'expected chance', till you find evidence.
    Then you have to consider one key variable is not understood, Abiogenesis. Something I'd think is a pretty big thing when looking at whether life has started elsewhere, is how it starts.

    So all you're really calculating is the probability of it being possible life (as we understand it) has started, not that it has. With obviously flawed variables.
    Probabilities + flawed variables = probable incorrect answer.
    Making both your analogy and self assertion incorrect when you said;

    "Thus, to believe in aliens is not id*tic, it is a choice based upon our limited knowledge of the day. In fact, to think they don't exist, would be no different then
    supporting the idea of the virgin birth. (highly improbable, but it would only have to happen once) Even though exceptions to the rule do happen, I tend to be skeptical against that which is most improbable."

    You've not evaluated and concluded based on accurate information, you've come to what you admit is a 'belief' about aliens existing, based on flawed calculations.(belief says it all really)
    Are you sure you're not biased by your attachment to Star Trek?
    You could sign off 100% of the time with 'live long and prosper', you'd still not be Vulcan with green blood.

  983. robertallen1

    Precisely. You have to understand what you're dealing with before applying mathematics (in this case probability) to it. What Awful_Truth and others who think they know something don't realize is that probability can be applied only to closed sets, not to everything imaginable, hence the senseless figures. .

  984. robertallen1

    Awful_Truth has not tried to slander the good name of the mods and the reputation of TDF in general, but rather tried to libel them.

  985. Freya Shipley

    I couldn't agree with you more. The scale of ignorance in the US--and worse, our institutionalized disdain for education--is staggering. A couple of years ago I asked a class of junior and senior undergraduates whether they could tell me the dates of World War Two. The general consensus was that Hitler had lived some time in the 1970s. (And one student remarked, "Why is it called World War *Two*? It's not like there was ever a "World War *One*, right?") One problem is that so many people choose to believe things for reasons other than reason. They want to believe in esp, because they want it to be real. Or they want to identify as the kind of person who senses ghosts--or whatever it is. They want to associate autism with the mysterious carryings-on of doctors, for emotional reasons that are not influenced by rational argument. I've heard so many versions of the inane remark, "I believe that every person's opinion should be respected, and everyone should decide for themselves what constitutes proof." What can one do but throw up one's hands (and write peevish comments on websites?)

  986. AntiTheist666

    I don’t like name calling but I just wanted you to know how much I loved your P.S

    Classic understatement!

  987. Epicurus

    1) I had not said until the very last post. I had not said anything remotely rude to you and you claimed that I did in order to dodge any questions put to you.

    2) what condescending remark? and my position is not from a pre-held conception. unless you mean the position that requires evidence. if you mean I hold a naturalistic assumption about the universe you would be correct. but atheist? NO.

    3) i didnt identify your preheld belief because it wasnt just one thing. and it wasnt necessary. you know what you took issue with in this documentary and you know why. because it insulted your belief that you already had. dont make this about me.

    4) no atheism has NO AGENDA. and religion doesnt either. the church might have an agenda. an individual atheist might have an agenda. but atheism and religion do not.

    oh and most scientists dont accept the drake equation...WAY too many assumptions. and docoman responded perfectly. i dont need to add anything.

  988. robertallen1

    And I couldn't agree with you more. I found one person who thought Hitler was Russian. Others I have found who believe he had Jewish ancestry (mostly, I think, because it makes a good story). Others can't tell the difference between the singular and the plural, e.g., "everyone should decide for themselves." Find me one American of 20-50 who has read Tom Sawyer (I'll even accept Huckleberry Finn)--I have encountered a large number of Europeans who have).
    "Choosing to believe" is simply an escape from the process of thinking something out and, if necessary, researching it and as you have so accurately stated, a belief "for reasons other than reason," the very embodiment of faith, that is to say wilful ignorance--and those who "choose to believe" are the same people who give more weight to the ill-informed over the conversant, thus constituting the stuff of which creationism, fundamentalism, alternative medicine, etc. are made of.
    I too get tired of people saying, "Well, I'm entitled to my opinion." "Or that's just my opinion," as if somehow to justify the idiocy, nonsense, superstition and downright ignorance emanating from their mouths, their pens or their keyboards. It's not the opinion as much as it is the support behind it.
    I'm curious. What do you teach?
    One way or the other, welcome to TDF. Please keep posting.

  989. robertallen1

    I don't mind name calling as long as there is something behind it other than the epithet and in Mother Theresa's case, there is plenty.

  990. robertallen1

    As I understand it, Dr. Drake did not even posit his equation as anything scientific which supports your response and Docoman's, especially in light of the preponderance of disparate figures for the parameters.
    Also by agenda, in the sense Awful_Truth used it implies a hidden agenda. So your statements as to atheism in general and religion in the abstract are correct.
    Have you had the opportunity to look at the short (10 min) documentary on You Tube entitled "Refuting Kenneth R. Miller on Chromosome 2?" Once again, considering your background in biology, I would really appreciate your comments.

  991. awful_truth

    @Achems_Razor: It is pretty hard to provide proof when the moderators cleaned out all their responses to me on the dashboard. Secondly, you sure jump to defend when I didn't even say your name. (a guilty conscience???) With that said, it really doesn't matter considering the group of people I am dealing with.
    The awful truth is your click are only capable of criticizing others without bringing anything original to the discussion. (very safe, unenlightened position) Since you are obviously devoid of anything new,(gave all of you way too much credit) I will no longer respond to anymore comments directed at me by your little sewing circle.

  992. robertallen1

    "You clique are[?]" " . . . gave all of you way to[?] much credit." I see that you are as weak in grammar as you are in science and mathematics. It's nice to hear that you will no longer be responding to anymore comments [Ha! Ha! Grammatical error number three]. Now, you can use the time you spend blogging on this site to learning something--anything.

  993. awful_truth

    @Docoman: If you don't agree with my assertion, that is fine. I don't agree with your assertion that you have the answer to how life began. (oh well) Also, If you are bothered by a sociable meaningful farewell like, live long and prosper, how about live and die in ignorance! (now do you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?) You all really are one angry lot of self deluded know it alls, aren't you? No need to answer. It is a rhetorical question.

  994. robertallen1

    Docoman never stated that he knew how life began--so this is just another mischaracterization on your part. And speaking of the self-deluded what about our little "expert" on Einstein and the laws of probability, especially Drake's law. Anyway, thanks for the hours of amusement.

  995. docoman

    How does me saying it's not understood translate to my asserting I know the answer?

    Sorry mate, but this proves the observation made about you earlier, that you seem to have a reading comprehension problem.
    You got something correct though, your 'truth' is pretty awful.

  996. over the edge

    we both know it was me who deleted your recent posts as i told you it was me and i explained to you why i did. i thought that you understood and agreed with the moderation and deletion since you said you did. if you
    have a problem with me do not drag the other mods or this site into it. by the way even though the posts do not appear any longer we still have them.

  997. Tom_Armidale_in_Australia

    To Jack1952,

    Do you have an email address where I can reach you? The reason I ask is because of the following:

    i. To discuss the point about a longer life expectancy and lower child mortality etc. in western, industrialised countries requires more space than is afforded within internet fora such as this one; and

    ii. If cool, dispassionate, reasoned dialogue is to be undertaken, I have found that it is best to undertake it away from "the eyes of the world" so to say. In addition, this comments thread is now over seven months old (mentioned to make the much smaller point that I would not be distracting you from it).

    Either way (i.e. whether we do discuss it via email or we do not), I will respect your decision. I have not discussed this with anyone as I have not come across anyone specifically mentioning an interest in discussing it. It would therefore be just as new to me as it is to you. That is the biggest reason why I am proposing it.

    Best regards,
    (sorry, no personal addys allowed) Moderator.

  998. howmuchcanakoalabear

    Why announce your email address "within internet fora such as this one".

    There is enough space here for your discussion with @Jack1952. I do believe he will respond in due course and I do forward to reading this discussion that should be undertaken "away from "the eyes of the world" so to say".

  999. Marty Mellway

    I think what Robm said about medicine is a very valid point, but I also agree that western medicine has made huge leaps in terms of surgery. But just think of the Title of the Science, shouldn't we go to school to study Health?? the very fact we call it medicine shows the obvious bias. Most modern medicine is heavily corrupted by multi billion dollar pharmaceutical corporations. Oh and if you came up with a cure and it couldn't be put in pill form! good luck getting that out there, you would likely lose your licence just talking about it. There is plenty of corruption, which stems from our global system of rampant capitalism without any laws to control it. Science is doing the best it can but we hold it back daily with our ancient social problems and greed.

  1000. robertallen1

    Large claims such as "Most modern medicine is heavily corrupted by multi billion dollar pharmaceutical corporations. and "Oh and if you came up with a cure and it couldn't be put in pill form! good luck getting that out there, you would likely lose your licence just talking about it" require large amounts of evidence. Where's yours?
    P.S. And just what's the matter with calling it medicine.

  1001. Austin Chernencoff

    I agree completely, especially in the medical profession, like you say. You won't get a vaccine anywhere near me, and I don't remember the last time I got sick. It's because I used the scientific method to develop another way to fight the flu. Everyone, want to know my secret? Water, you would be amazed what proper hydration can do. It has proved successful for me in experimentation upon myself. Also I work in retail, so see lots of people.

  1002. Austin Chernencoff

    While I agree that there are many medical innovations that have really helped, there are some bad ones which in my opinion should be avoided. Not all "lore remedies" or whatever you might call them are ineffective. In fact many of the drugs used by modern science were used in South America for centuries. Curare used in heart surgery is one example.

  1003. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes it's a very good thing that germ theory was discovered, but can you really attribute that to doctors? I agree about the scientific method helping, but I think a lot of the other fields of science tend to kick start the medical profession. Another few examples would be x-rays and MRI's. Most of these innovations are actually made by other sciences and then adopted by the medical fields. I'm not saying medical science doesn't have it's place, but seriously in the States it is about the money. You are paid more for less care, simple as that.

  1004. robertallen1

    How do you tell if you have THE flu? How are you able to assess the value of your "treatment." As a matter of fact, what are your medical qualifications?

  1005. Austin Chernencoff

    I agree completely, but that's not to say alternative medicines still don't have their own place. A lot of modern medical science relies heavily on the knowledge of the past. Especially when drugs are concerned. Many of the drugs were taken from the indigenous peoples of North and South America. The drug used for heart surgery today is based of curare which has been used for centuries. I agree completely about the life span increase and everything though. I often point to that when people say the world is falling apart or getting worse and what not.

  1006. robertallen1

    What type of curare? What are your medical qualifications?

  1007. Austin Chernencoff

    I just want to say, I don't really agree with your points for the most part, and the hair splitting on the obvious mistake on the name(although quite a big one) is a little silly. Argue the roots not the leaves, you are making it into an argument about semantics. Having said all that I liked this comment because the hemlock comment was hilarious.

  1008. robertallen1

    " . . . but seriously in the States it is about the money. You are paid more for less care, simple as that." Source? Evidence? Medical qualifications?

  1009. robertallen1

    Which "alternative medicines" are these?

  1010. Austin Chernencoff

    Do they? Japan has the highest average life span, and I kind of consider them Eastern. You should have left that statement as first world, but even then places like Cuba are rated higher for average life span than the USA for instance. So why is that? A country with way more wealth ranks lower? A corrupt medical system would explain a lot If you ask me.(but no one is) :(

  1011. Austin Chernencoff

    Well I beg to differ. In my opinion science has shown some better nutrition could eliminate a lot of the problems we face today, but when is the last time you heard a doctor ask you what you ate today? Maybe some, but not enough. I saw a show once where they couldn't find out what was wrong with someone for quite some time, and it turned out to be scurvy. I mean how is nutrition not looked at first. There are many scientists who feel this way too. Check out Dr. Russell Blaylock, a neurosurgeon and nutritionist. I have no love for the pharmaceuticals, and constantly see drugs prescribed when all they need is some proper nutrition. I mean if you really think that depression is caused by chemical imbalances for instance, how could diet not come into that? No pill will save people from the crap they shovel into their mouths. I think that prevention should be a larger focus than it is.
    P.S. I don't have a problem with that term. I don't really get his problem with it.

  1012. Austin Chernencoff

    As a matter of fact the vaccinations for polio were implemented after it was already in decline. It was introduced after the peak of the bell curve and took the credit for the human immune system. I could gather the data together for you, but many others have already done so, and done it better than I could. Look into the timing of the vaccine beside the number of infected, and you will see strong evidence showing that the vaccine really wasn't responsible. There is your evidence. Like you said also where is the polio now? Not all places had the vaccine, yet don't suffer large polio outbursts.

  1013. Austin Chernencoff

    The modern drug used for heart surgery is based of curare. I am not sure what type, but know it is. I read it in a book and would have to find the book and then go off the footnote, and yes there was a footnote. Basically curare works by paralyzing you while not tensing up your muscles. If you look you can find it, but that s just one example of modern medicine stealing drugs from other people and taking credit.

  1014. Austin Chernencoff

    Well I have zero symtoms, that's how. No stuffed up nose, no coughing and no weakness. How would you describe perfect health exactly?

  1015. Austin Chernencoff

    Also what are your qualifications? Why is everything with you an attack on someone's credentials? Why not actually look into what I am talking about, because clearly you don't know, instead of attacking my expertise. If you haven't noticed no one here is likely a doctor, but that doesn't mean they are wrong. Why not debate my argument instead of attacking me. You are well versed in the straw man argument style I see.

  1016. Austin Chernencoff

    Again what are your medical qualifications? And why should they matter on a topic such as "I don't remember the last time I got sick". Well maybe there was that one day I was sick even though I felt fine? Really man, really. I love your intensity, but I have to condemn your debate tactics.

  1017. robertallen1

    Once again, what is your medical background or does it consist of a few shows that you have watched? Also, which doctor isn't for better nutrition and prevention?. As a matter of fact, mainstream medical facilities often have nutritionists on staff. Now, what is the crap that people shovel into their mouths?
    Without a medical background, your opinion as to what mainstream medicine should or should not do is pretentious and worthless.

  1018. robertallen1

    So you're saying that the Salk vaccine was pretty much useless. Now, what is your source and what is the extent of your medical background?

  1019. robertallen1

    "If you look you can find it, but that s just one example of modern medicine stealing drugs from other people and taking credit." So you read it in a footnote in some book, the title of which escapes, but you somehow expect the person reading your post to find this book and the information contained in the footnote for himself. That is plainly and patently dishonest. The claimant (in this case, you) has the burden of proof and so far you have provided none--and by the way, how does one STEAL drugs from other people and claim credit?

  1020. robertallen1

    Do you have access to a lab with the proper equipment for determining the presences of any of the myriad viruses causing what is commonly known as the flu? This ignorance contained in this post of yours demonstrates that you have no medical background at all or even a layman's knowledge of medicine. .

  1021. Austin Chernencoff

    Do you actually want examples or do you just want to attack me some more? Honestly why would anyone ever have a conversation with you, it's impossible. I would love to have a stimulating debate, but you are intent on attacking character. I don't feel like being a part of my own abuse by you, so no I will not give examples. For every proof I will find the internet will have a counter point. I don't care if you believe, but I have pointed out that many successful alternative medicines are now in modern science. There was a time when washing your hands before childbirth was considered "alternative medicine". Not until germ theory was discovered did it become widespread. So there's an example in history for you, but that's the only one I'll give. Peace, and may your future conversations contain some respect.

  1022. robertallen1

    You are making medical pronouncements. I want to know what's behind them--and so far your only evidence has consisted of assertions and accusations. Crying strawman is mere a cover up for what seems so far to be your medical ignorance.

  1023. robertallen1

    Just how did you know that you even had THE "flu" in the first place? It takes medical qualifications to make this assessment.

  1024. Austin Chernencoff

    Watch sicko, a very good documentary about the subject. Other than that they have health insurance. How is it not about the money, I could very well ask you. Source? Evidence? Medical qualifications?

  1025. Austin Chernencoff

    Also I find your caveman banter somewhat entertaining. Grunting out words like "source, evidence". Are you capable of forming sentences with complex meaning or just attacking content, because I haven't seen a single point you have added to this discussion, period. What is your point? You never seem to have one, but you sure are good at trying to discredit others points though.

  1026. robertallen1

    " . . . but that's not to say alternative medicines still don't have their own place." The question was which "alternative medicines" still have their place, not which procedures or pharmaceuticals which were once considered alternative medicines have now become part of mainstream medicine.

    You make assertions without background, without evidence and resent being asked for them. As such you deserve no respect.


  1027. Austin Chernencoff

    Why don't you check out Dr. Russell Blaylock. He is the Doctor. Are you a doctor, again you haven't told me your credentials, and if you have none, then you have no right to judge. You may have noticed I didn't personally attack you ever, but you have called my opinion pretentious, and worthless. Why do I even talk? You don't create a very happy environment for discussion, I must say. This time though I will sum up your point because you actually have one here. You are saying "what doctor doesn't care about nutrition"? However I never said that. I said they don't look there first, which in my worthless opinion, they should. As far as the crap people shovel into their mouths look no further than fast food.

  1028. Austin Chernencoff

    The name didn't escape me, I didn't give it. Here it is now "The Cosmic Serpent", because you asked so nice. Although the information is just repeated in this book, the source is elsewhere, and I don't feel like digging it out of a box to get you a source.

  1029. Austin Chernencoff

    I am pointing out that all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second,
    it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

  1030. robertallen1

    As I have asserted nothing except for your medical incompetence and ignorance, the burden of proof is not on me. "How is it not about the money?" is not anything approaching an answer. However, you have finally provided a source which I will look into.

  1031. Austin Chernencoff

    I already said I wasn't a doctor. Also how can you refute my claims if you are not a doctor. What makes your refutation of my points any more relevant than my points, if you yourself are not a doctor? Did you ever think about that. How would a layman prove a layman wrong on something neither of them are versed at?

  1032. robertallen1

    Once again, you are the one asserting, not I, and hence the burden of proof lies with you--and you have failed to meet it and resent being asked to do so. This says a lot about you.

  1033. Austin Chernencoff

    Also I wont give you a modern example because it is likely still in the first stage of truth, and I don't care if you believe or not. Your statement here just proves my point, that you don't have a point. You just attack content but have none of your own. Also everyone deserves some respect, even you.

  1034. Austin Chernencoff

    Why don't you just ever respectfully disagree. This is a discussion, not a war. Can you lay off some of those words like, incompetence, and ignorance? Personal attack is not necessary.

  1035. Austin Chernencoff

    What burden of proof? This isn't my final thesis here. Not every internet discussion needs 20 links and sources. Again why are you even in this conversation? You clearly are not interested in anything, but disputing peoples claims. Please say something interesting. You are boring me to death right now, but I know deep down you have some good points.

  1036. robertallen1

    How do you know that doctors don't look to nutrition and prevention? As you lack the medical credentials, telling doctors what they should be doing is indeed pretentious and worthless, for without a medical education, you lack the ability to assess what you read.

    Which Dr. Blaylock's works are you referring to? Direct citations or quotes are more than useful, they are required for proper verification.

    If you meant fast food, you should have written fast food--"crap" says nothing as do most of your posts.

  1037. Austin Chernencoff

    Also I didn't answer your question here about how you steal drugs. It's quite simple really. You go into a culture that shares everything, and you find some natural plants they use that have properties that are useful. Then you take said plant back with you and analyze it and get the active ingredient out of it and patent it. Simple as that. They are not filing patents of there own. So even though they have had the drug for centuries someone else has taken credit for it, and is getting paid. Even though technically he did not create it, only found it. It may not be technically stealing, because it was given away. However the credit for creation does not always lie with the patent holder.

  1038. robertallen1

    So you don't feel like digging out your source. This says a lot about you and your claims.

  1039. Austin Chernencoff

    I'm not crying straw man, just pointing out your debate tactics. Not just in regards to me either. I am not trying to cover up anything. I am trying to add information to the debate, which you are welcome to dispute, but I ask you dispute my data not my character please.

  1040. robertallen1

    Non-resopnsive. You wrote, " . . . but that's not to say alternative medicines still don't have their own place." Now which medicaments which are currently considered current "alternative" have their place in mainstream medicine?

  1041. Austin Chernencoff

    I understand your point that until I am tested that it isn't completely provable, but honestly good health and well being is proof enough for me. If I had any viruses I failed to notice them, how could you consider me sick? That makes zero sense, I'm sorry. If I have the flu or whatever and feel no symtoms I would argue I have no dis-ease.

  1042. robertallen1

    I haven't refuted anything except your ability to assess medical material. I am simply demanding that you back up your claims.

  1043. Austin Chernencoff

    I have had no diseases of any kind. I don't know how else to explain it to you. People that don't feel sick don't go into a lab to prove their health. The evidence you want will never exist.

  1044. robertallen1

    Well, this says a lot about the substance of your claim " . . . but that's not to say alternative medicines still don't have their own place." You'll get no respect from this corner.

  1045. Austin Chernencoff

    I have already told you, no. I won't, I have nothing to prove to you, and I have a feeling it's like trying to tell a religious person there is no God, you will reject anything I have to say. I could provide a mountain of evidence, and I could see you easily refuting everything. " I am simply demanding that you back up your claims." Demand away, that is all you are good at.

  1046. robertallen1

    I can't "respectfully disagree" with someone who by his own admission is medically incompetent and yet makes unsubstantiated medical claim and after unsubstantiated medical claim and then resents being asked for substantiation.

  1047. Austin Chernencoff

    Do you need a hug? You seem cranky.

  1048. robertallen1

    "Again why are you even in this conversation? You clearly are not interested in anything, but disputing peoples [sic] claims." Isn't disputing people's claims, especially claims presented without corroboration, one of the purposes of this thread? However, which of your claims have I disputed?

  1049. Austin Chernencoff

    What corner? I see no point.

  1050. Austin Chernencoff

    You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Why don't you try asking instead of demanding? I find this yields better results with people.

  1051. Austin Chernencoff

    I am not medically incompetent. You don't have to be a mechanic to fix a car, or know some basics like changing your oil. Why is it so black and white with you? Also I am not resenting anything, I am simply asking you debate the content not the character. Is that really so much to ask?

  1052. Austin Chernencoff

    For instance, instead of saying what are your qualifications, why not say "I have not seen this to be true, and would like to see where you are getting this information from" or "There are no alternative medicines currently existing to my knowledge that are beneficial". Same effect less hate.

  1053. robertallen1

    If the manner in which these drugs were obtained is not technically stealing, why did you call it stealing? If these drugs were actually stolen, from whom were they stolen? If these drugs were given away, who gave them away and did these people have the right to do so?

  1054. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes it is, but in a non offensive way, and I would also add that just disputing claims while bringing nothing to the discussion other than disbelief isn't a very good way to carry out conversations. I would like you to point out something interesting which proves your point that alternative medicine has nothing to offer. Please elaborate how there is currently nothing lying outside established medicine that could be of use today.

  1055. robertallen1

    Making unsubstantiated claims and taking umbrage when you are asked to provide substantiation calls your character into question.

  1056. robertallen1

    DId I say that you were sick? What I questioned was your recommended unsubstantiated water cure. How do you know that it works. Anecdotal evidence and a sample of one are hardly conclusive.

  1057. Emergency Stop

    "You won't get a vaccine anywhere near me," are you claiming vaccines are ineffective, too dangerous or both?

    "I used the scientific method to develop another way to fight the flu. Everyone, want to know my secret? Water," really water, that's the secret. Here I've been getting a flu shot very year and I didn't need to. Just had to keep properly hydrated. bugger

  1058. Austin Chernencoff

    Does it? Because 1 guy on the internet wants me to dig through my less than organized closet to find a book, (this would take hours by the way) My claims are not valid now?

  1059. docoman

    I'll add a little before I retire. :) You were asked for an alternative medicine.. Marijuana... it's easy to argue.

    It's incorrect to say no noticeable symptoms means there's no disease. Cancer is often not noticed until it causes problems. Just because you don't notice it, doesn't mean you don't have something. HIV for another example.

  1060. Austin Chernencoff

    Please just look at any history of curare, it's all there. Forget the book, even the wiki page on curare mentions it's pharmacological properties. I literally found a ton of information on the subject within a minute by googling "curare heart surgery". The information is all there and frankly I am done talking to you now, seeing how you are so closed off to any information. Learn how to google things. Not everyone on the net wants to hold your hand, and google everything for you that they already know.

  1061. robertallen1

    "You won't get a vaccine anywhere near me, and I don't remember the last time I got sick. It's because I used the scientific method to develop another way to fight the flu. Everyone, want to know my secret? Water, you would be amazed what proper hydration can do. It has proved successful for me in experimentation upon myself. Also I work in retail, so see lots of people." Sounds like the old pink elephant story. Just how do you know that "proper hydration" keeps away THE "flu." A medical test performed on a sampling of one is worthless.

  1062. robertallen1

    "I could provide a mountain of evidence"--but. This is simply an admission that you have nothing to back them up with.

  1063. Austin Chernencoff

    Google is your friend.

  1064. robertallen1

    "I am not medically incompetent." I don't see M.D. or similar degree after your name. I don't see any evidence of a medical background. So your claim is false.
    And I'm demanding that you provide the sources of your content which you obviously resent doing and I can see only one reason why.
    P.S. Are you claiming that it doesn't take a trained auto mechanic to replace a transmission or fix a head gasket?

  1065. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes I am, I know many people that are not trained mechanics that can do just that. I suppose now you want evidence? Just check out youtube, they are out there. Again google is your friend. And yes that is exactly what I am claiming.

  1066. robertallen1

    First of all, you have no business telling me how to phrase just as you have no business telling medical professionals what they should or should not be doing. Secondly, I'm not going to soft-pedal this. You make claims without substantiation and you're going to be called on it, plain and simple.

  1067. Austin Chernencoff

    Obviously you know little about engines, or you wouldn't think a head gasket or a tranny job is that hard. Now designing the engine or tranny on the other hand.

  1068. Austin Chernencoff

    First of all you have no business demanding sources from me. Second, you have no ability to google anything at all. I googled some of the things I said here and found immediate info on the subjects. If I am medically incompetent, you are internet search incompetent.

  1069. robertallen1

    " . . . but that's not to say alternative medicines still don't have their own
    place." You are the one making the claim and whether you like it or not or whether you think it's offensive or not, the burden of proof is on you. Your refusal to meet it says a lot about the validity of your claims, especially this one.

  1070. Austin Chernencoff

    I may have claimed that, but you are also claiming that alternative medicine is useless. Now prove it.

  1071. robertallen1

    That's the price you pay for making claims BEFORE you have the evidence at hand. And it has nothing to do with "1 guy on the internet."

  1072. Austin Chernencoff

    oooo you disliked my comments :( That really hurts. So can I assume that the ones you didn't dislike were somewhat ok?

  1073. robertallen1

    I've read medical opinion pro and con on marijuana. As the jury still seems to be out, I can't say one way or the other--i.e., I cannot make a claim.

  1074. Jack1952

    I would have included Japan in my statement and you are reverting to semantics in your argument. I think of Japan as a nation that lives a Western lifestyle. Japan uses the same types of medicines the United States does. The reason for the disparity in the States is access to healthcare. America resists socialized healthcare which other first world countries all have embraced. There is a lot of wealth in the States but there are many who don't share in the wealth. It is American politics that is the reason for this life span failure...not corrupt medical practices or pharmacology.

  1075. robertallen1

    Where did I dispute the use of curare derivatives in surgery?
    Sending someone on a fishing expedition through the internet doesn't provide the sources you used to support your claims pursuant to your obligation to meet your burden of proof.

  1076. robertallen1

    Once again, sending someone on a fishing expedition through the internet doesn't provide the sources you used to support your claims pursuant to your obligation to meet your burden of proof.

  1077. robertallen1

    Being able to do that means that they've been trained in mechanics. You don't pick up that skill out of the blue.
    And I assume that you also know many people not trained in medicine who can make competent diagnoses and perform surgery.

  1078. robertallen1

    "First of all you have no business demanding sources from me." This says everything about your unsubstantiated claims and expecting people to research them says a lot about you--none of it good.

  1079. Austin Chernencoff

    curare heart surgery. Try the first link...... Have you even tryed fishing? The internet ocean is abundant.

  1080. Austin Chernencoff

    It's called being a farmer and just picking up skills over time. They haven't been trained, rather they were self taught. Don't presume to know anything about my friends.

  1081. robertallen1

    By your own admission you have made a claim. Your refusal to back it up coupled with your attempt to dishonestly place the burden of proof on me renders you a fraud.

  1082. Austin Chernencoff

    Also it wasn't my point that you be an expert in the field just competent. Which you claim everyone who is not trained is incompetent. A bold claim which is provably false. Maybe next time I'll tell my friend to video tape himself, just so you can see it done.

  1083. Austin Chernencoff

    Give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime. Go do some research and learn something new.

  1084. robertallen1

    I agree, but don't you think that HMO's are a form of socialized medicine.

  1085. Austin Chernencoff

    What dishonesty? Everything I have said is true. Maybe it does come from a place of ignorance, who knows. Clearly not you though as you have done no research and have admitted to that. You want me to do all the work for you. Besides If I post a link my comment will be delayed.

  1086. robertallen1

    They had to go by something and someone.
    One way or the other, are you trying to apply auto mechanics to medicine, i.e., are you saying that there are people with no medical training who are competent medical doctors?

  1087. Austin Chernencoff

    I would also point out that I gave an example, but it wasn't good enough for you. You demanded a contemporary example. However the nature of the subject will always cast doubt upon the contemporary alternative medicines. That is the nature of the beast so again I think that they have their place and only time will tell which ones are adopted and found to be useful. Like you say I am not a doctor, but I don't need to be to see that dabbling in absolutes such as "all alternative medicines are useless" is a close minded way of seeing the world.

  1088. robertallen1

    To see what done?
    Now how can someone be medically competent without medical training?

  1089. robertallen1


  1090. robertallen1

    "Everything I have said is true." Shades of "Your president is not a crook." Where have I admitted that I've done no research. "Besides if I post a link my comment will be delayed." What a cop out. As if this were some type of emergency. Well, if you don't want to wait, you can type out your link with spaces in between. Don't try that.

  1091. Austin Chernencoff

    I agree and under that interpretation of the word "western" I agree with your point. My point though was is it really being a first world thing or just having socialized medicine? Like I said though I agree that the world is only getting better, but I can't help but think the system must be corrupt when the answer to better health is so obvious. It is clearly about the money. All the States would have to do is look to almost any other first world nation to see the better formula. I think the doctors themselves want to help, but the people that hire them, not so much. Like I said there is an incentive for less care, do to the nature of insurance. That's all.

  1092. Austin Chernencoff

    h ttp://e n.wikipedia.o rg /wiki/Curar e

  1093. robertallen1

    Because the example had nothing to do with your claim (need I repeat it?) By the way, washing the hands is not a medicament.
    What you happen to think is only so much garbage; it's what you can prove. Once again, what are these "alternative medicines" which might prove useful and did it ever occur to you why these "alternative medicines" are not part of the mainstream and that if they did work, they would be."

  1094. Austin Chernencoff

    I can perform CPR and the Heimlich. I would say that puts me above the incompetence level. I find your opinions rather offensive, to be honest. Why incompetence? Seriously can't we all get along?

  1095. Austin Chernencoff

    Well they researched themselves on how to do techniques and self taught themselves. It is not impossible, nor unheard of.

  1096. robertallen1

    See that wasn't so bad, was it? I read this article quite some time ago. Citing it in tandem with your statement of its use in cardiac surgery (and, by the way, it is not curare itself, but rather its derivatives) would have met your burden of proof.

  1097. Austin Chernencoff

    Also I'm sorry if my tactics seemed like semantics. I think it was just the use of the word western and yes now that I see how you meant it exactly, I agree with your point. I think that modern medicine is great. I mean if I need penicillin, I will use it.

  1098. Austin Chernencoff

    If you read it then why did you need me to post it? I mean it was the first link here. Why must everything be posted. In my opinion the idea itself is the link. You can search all the respective views on the subject, and I don't bias your search with my link.

  1099. robertallen1

    Do you have medical certificates attesting to your competence to perform these procedures or is this merely self-aggrandizement? And even if you do, what makes you think that you have the competence to assess medical procedures and articles?

  1100. robertallen1

    So you don't need to go to medical school to learn how to be a heart or brain surgeon or achieve competence the the various areas of medical specialization; you can somehow teach yourself.

    If it's not unheard of, let's see your evidence--but I forgot you expect others to do your verification for you.

  1101. Austin Chernencoff

    Sure it did, it had everything to do with it. You won't find an example, because these things are not proven until they are part of medical science. That's the whole point I'm getting at. I mean I could say that chiropractors are awesome for instance, but until it is truly accepted or proven it can be refuted. So what's the point? Facts and time speaks for itself. I think your denial of all alternative medicine is ridiculous though. I don't dabble in absolutes. I mean I'm not talking about hooeyopathy here. I mean ALL alternative medicine? Ridiculous, to claim something so broad. I think that alternative medicine has proven useful in the past and it will continue to do so. When the proof arises, it is no longer "alternative medicine".

  1102. robertallen1

    You just don't understand about burden of proof, do you? Or perhaps you don't want to or feel you can skirt it.

  1103. Austin Chernencoff

    ..... Yes actually I had some basic medical training in the past, but my certification has expired. But to be honest, they teach the Heimlich in elementary school too. It's not rocket science.

  1104. Austin Chernencoff

    I never said that modern medicine is useless. I embrace and love all medicine, I just think that there is a system based on money in the States, and it leads to less care. The proof is in the pudding though. The fact that Cuba has a higher average lifespan speaks worlds. h tt p: //en.wikipedia.or g/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

  1105. Austin Chernencoff

    I understand completely, but I am just trying to have a discussion here. I mean in real life do you constantly call every comment into question and demand a link? Besides I have referenced sources you have clearly not had the time to look into. h t tp://ww w.russellblaylockmd. co m/ check out that site. He has information on nutrition and how it isn't focused on enough and vaccine information. Check out the top links. Read the first page to see his credentials.

  1106. Austin Chernencoff

    I was just referring to the Heimlich and CPR, stop putting words in my mouth.

  1107. Austin Chernencoff

    Also I am just asserting that someone that knows some basic medical procedures is not incompetent.

  1108. robertallen1

    Before you say anything more about chiropractic, I suggest that you read "Trick or Treatment" by Simon Singh and Edward Ernst, M.D., in particular pp. 147-182. In short, there is nothing that a chiropractor can do that a mainstream medical practitioner cannot do better or at least as well.

    Obviously, I have to repeat your statement: " . . . but that's not to say alternative medicines still don't have their own place." Now which current "alternative medicines" "have their own place?" Not only don't you dabble in absolutes; you don't dabble in substantiation as well.

  1109. robertallen1

    To continue with you automotive analogy changing a tire is not tantamount to rebuilding a transmission. And having some "basic medical training" does not qualify you to make a valid medical assessment.

  1110. robertallen1

    Good. You've learned to provide your source. Now, all you have to do is establish that our capitalistic system leads to less care--i.e., the correlation between shorter lifespan and money--and while you're at it, in your assessment, I suggest that you take PMO's and HMO's into account.

  1111. robertallen1

    Once again, you've provided a source which I will check into. And yes, in real life, when someone makes a factual claim (and I don't mean something pedestrian such as what a person's breakfast fare), I demand sources.

    As for your Dr. Blaylock, I've entered the address you cited (typing spaces wasn't so difficult, was it?) which leads me to several sites pertaining to him. In return, I direct you to skepdic dot com/blaylock dot html.

  1112. robertallen1

    "I can perform CPR and the Heimlich. I would say that puts me above the
    incompetence level." Once again, it does not render you competent to assess a medical article.

  1113. Austin Chernencoff

    In turn I link you the bio of the guy that wrote that article, who is not a Doctor. h tt p ://w ww .skepdic .c om/ refuge/bi o . ht ml Guess what? He's a philosopher. That is a far cry from being able to have any opinion on medicine, by your own admissions. He is not an MD. Russell Blaylock on the other hand is a world renowned neurosurgeon, who has pioneered techniques still in use today. Who are you going to believe? Also to back up my claims I just made, check the link on him I already gave you.

  1114. Austin Chernencoff

    I didn't learn to. It is just for you since you seem to not know a lot of these basic things, and can't google simple stats. Again common knowledge really doesn't have to be linked but since you are "demanding" it, I will link things for you.

  1115. Austin Chernencoff

    I replied to null eh? Way to delete your comments, makes sense though that you would. I understand completely Robertallen1.

  1116. Austin Chernencoff

    Fair enough. I can't argue that logic, however I was just maintaining that I have a healthy immune system. However that alone can't really save you from the things you mentioned. I could also have high cholesterol. Also as far as marijuana goes, I agree. However I didn't want to go down that rabbit hole. It has so much misinformation surrounding it. Which in my opinion is the main problem with most alternative medicines. There were reasons I wasn't feeding the troll.

  1117. Austin Chernencoff

    You see this is what I am talking about. For every coin there is a heads and a tails. Until these things become part of established medicine there will always be doubt. Also I wasn't going to say more about it. The information you want can never exist because of the nature of the subject. I am sorry but If the proof was there it would already be established medicine. I am not allowed to mention past examples though. You have ridiculous rules which can never be satisfied. I am sorry, can't help you.

  1118. Austin Chernencoff

    Also am I not allowed to have an opinion? I don't care to elaborate or argue the pros and cons of various medicines, because I already know your stance. I could run through the whole argument by myself. I could find links and books promoting either side. I personally like to stand back and see things fold out. I am an observer and it is my opinion that alternative medicines have their place. Md or not, and medical competence or not this is my opinion. I don't care what you think anyway.

  1119. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes, we can stick with the analogy, it just proves my point. If you can change a tire you are not mechanically incompetent. If you have absolutely zero automotive skills I would consider you incompetent. Changing a tire involves many things. Jacking up the vehicle. Knowing what way to turn the lug nuts etc. There are many guys working at tire shops that would consider being called mechanically incompetent an insult, just because they can't rebuild a tranny.

  1120. Austin Chernencoff

    Thank you, and well said.

  1121. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes that is exactly what I am asserting. I have posted a link which awaits moderation. You can judge for yourself. This is true from what I have seen and know to be true. I have no stake in proving anything to you though. You are a broken record, around and around.

  1122. Nathan Cory

    I don't think the comment was insinuating that medicine is "always" motivated by greed. It was just making a (very) valid point. It certainly wasn't a 'blanket assessment'. Very presumptuous of you...

  1123. Nathan Cory

    Why can't you just look into it for yourself robertallen1? He's pointed out some information that he's come across in his experience. He even went back and found the book title for you. It doesn't make him right or wrong and I think he's open to that. You on the other hand are just arguing for arguments sake it sounds to me. If you're both serious about "facts", then how about dropping everything you both think you know and figure it out together? One doesn't need a phd or a degree to enquire into things.

  1124. Nathan Cory

    Everyone is giving their bit of knowledge or experience, however valid or invalid it may be (ALL knowledge is limited btw), but all you're doing is slamming everyone for not having qualifications or degrees whilst giving nothing yourself. Arguing for arguments sake is so easy but so pointless.

    What could eventuate into a constructive discussion where people may widen their scope of understandings (including the opportunity for people to see the possible falseness of what they may have read somewhere) - is completely hindered by your arguing.

  1125. Nathan Cory

    Just started watching this... Is that Peter Joseph talking?

  1126. robertallen1

    It's quite simple. Name me some medicaments or treatments which are presently considered "alternative medicine," but which have the potential of entering into the realm of the mainstream--and chiropractic is not one of them.

  1127. robertallen1

    Is this a legal question?

  1128. robertallen1

    A phlebotomoist is not competent to do anything in the medical field except draw blood. Ambulance personnel are not competent to do anything in the medical field except render emergency treatment and drive the patient to the hospital. So much for your tire shop employee.

  1129. robertallen1

    From what you've seen? Just what have you seen and how does it constitute double-blind medical testing? And while we're at it, how do you KNOW this is TRUE? Is that why you write "I have no stake in proving anything to you though?"

  1130. robertallen1

    You're simply another one of those who can't grasp the basic principle that the claimant has the burden of proof and that sending someone on a fishing expedition through the internet does not even begin to meet it.

  1131. robertallen1

    Something else you obviously don't understand: when a person make judgments or statements about a specialized field such as medicine, I want to know the person's qualifications. That's all there is to it.

  1132. Emergency Stop

    Had a look at the link you provided, all I got out of it was this. Get some male albino rats, put them in a cage, feed some of them dried oats and no water for up to 10 days. Then behead them, examine them and we find out that going without water for such a long period of time wasn't good for their health. I do realise there was more in the examination phase then "wasn't good for their health" but was to technical for me. That study has nothing to do with proper hydration, those rats got NO water.

    "I have not needed any vaccines. I have never had any" you were protected because others around you were vaccinated, known as "herd immunity"

  1133. robertallen1

    Of course proper hydration is important, not only for the immune system, but for the entire body. So what?

    I would like to see you travel to a malaria-infested jungle without vaccination and see what happens.
    I see that Emergency Stop also has your number.

  1134. Emergency Stop

    "so obviously the vaccine wasn't necessary at least for me" I will say it again "herd immunity".

    I can suggest you read the comments section of the documentary called Lethal Injection: The Story of Vaccination here on TDF. You will find your sparring partner and others who pick the documentary to pieces and expose it for what it is or you can watch it and confirm your bias of vaccinations even farther.

  1135. robertallen1

    "Yes vaccines contain thimerosol which contains mercury. I don't need mercury in any amount in my body." Again, what are your medical qualifications?

    Funny, how when people are vaccinated, the occurrences of the diseases for which they are vaccinated decrease and when they are not, they increase. I suggest you look up the Wikipedia article on Andrew Wakefield, not barred in England from the practice of medicine--and rightly so--regarding measles, mumps and rubella.
    The two references you have provided so far clearly demonstrate that you don't know what you are talking about.

  1136. oQ

    There is no effective malaria vaccine on the market. People take pills.

    I travelled twice 6 months each time in the malaria infected West Africa. I was not taking malaria medicine has it is harmfull for the liver taken over such long period of time. Never got malaria, actually never got sick either trips. I was drinking right from water wells, staying at people's house (mud brick constructions), touching the hands of every kids coming my way, sharing meals many times from the same large bowl.

    I travelled with a pharmacy of homemade pills of Golden Seal, Grapefruit seed, applied Tea tree oil on cuts, consumed Olive leaf extract...and similar medication.

    I must have been lucky...for 12 whole months.


  1137. robertallen1

    Assuming that you're telling the truth, that's exactly what it was--just luck. You were simply not bitten--what touching kids' hands or eating communal meals has to do with it is beyond me. Now, let's see you prove a direct connection between your little pharmacy and your failure to get bitten.

    "I was not taking malaria medicine has it is harmfull [sic] for the liver taken over such long period of time." Which malaria medicine are you referring to? There are several of them. Without medical qualifications, how do you know that malaria medicine (whichever one you are talking about) is harmful to the liver or is the emphasis on "taken over such long period of time?"

  1138. oQ

    I get my opinion from talking with hundreds of avid travellers and from consulting a vaccine clinic while in Vancouver. The only vaccine i accepted was the Yellow Fever vaccine as it is mandatory and i felt nothing could keep me back. In fact it's possibly that the only mandatory vaccine anywhere in the world is Yellow Fever (i'll let you check as you seem to discredit people's source if it's not yours), even though all other vaccines for "travellers" are strongly pushed by the medical association members.

    I did get bite,...i just didn't get sick.

    That was in 2003/2004 and 2004/2500 and before that 2 months (2002) Thailand/Laos/China, before that Pakistan, India, Egypt, Dominican Republic (no malaria prevention other than a net).
    I am a lucky girl, this may have to do with the fact that i was born on a 13th, my lucky number.....lol

  1139. robertallen1

    Of the many species of mosquito, only the female anopheles causes malaria and primarilythe aedes egypti brings on yellow fever. So did you ever think that although you were bitten, it wasn't by either of these types? So, yes you were lucky, but foolhardy. It's all there in the Wikipedia articles on mosquitos, yellow fever and malaria.
    Your statement about my accepting only my own sources is a bald-faced lie and you should be ashamed of yourself for making it. This makes you despicable.

  1140. oQ

    There i get your despicable dagger, quite appropriate while talking about moskitos.

  1141. robertallen1

    And quite appropriate for someone who lies.

  1142. over the edge


    i read your link. it shows they only reviewed "516 published case reports of mefloquine adverse effects" for a drug that has been used since the seventies. they admit that this is only a hypothesis and if you remain hydrated,avoid drugs and alcohol it is safe for children adults and pregnant women. while i appreciate the link and agree that caution should be taken, there are also other options for tthose at risk of harm from this treatment.

    i would also like to say that i am jealous of your travels and this post is not meant to start an argument with you. just a concern that you keep safe as i enjoy our odd bouts of verbal sparring.

    p.s i would also like to say i have spent extended time in every province and territory in our vast and diverse country and i hope you have or will do the same. we have the most diverse and wonderful backyard in my opinion

  1143. Austin Chernencoff

    So you just said that both of those people were competent in certain medical fields. My analogy holds. So yes I would not consider ambulance personnel "medically incompetent".

  1144. Austin Chernencoff

    Again my example had everything to do with my claim. I gave a past example of something being considered alternative, then becoming mainstream. Which was my whole point on the evolution of ideas and procedures. You just don't get it, you don't. That's ok if you don't see how it ties in now, after me explaining it about 8 times, you never will. Don't worry yourself over it Allen.

  1145. robertallen1

    If I'm traveling into a malaria-infested area (highly unlikely) and my doctor advises me to take the vaccine, I'm going to do it because this mainstream medical practitioner knows more about the subject than I do and I don't claim the expertise to assess the medical evidence.

  1146. Austin Chernencoff

    That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but that doesn't mean it is true. If you were truly using critical thinking you would not deal in absolutes. Never say never.

  1147. robertallen1

    They are not competent to assess the efficacy of vaccination as you consider yourself to be despite the almost complete lack of medical training.

  1148. Austin Chernencoff

    No it's a debate etiquette question. I am sharing my point of view, I don't really feel like arguing every single point with you. I like to see the big picture, and the big picture does not involve arguing every single detail with you. I think that alternative medicines have their place, end of story. I am not going to get into each individual medical procedure. You can do that with someone else.

  1149. Austin Chernencoff

    Never said they were. It has always been you asserting this. I just said that medical incompetence is a blanket term, which you have used incorrectly. The ambulance driver is not "medically incompetent" however he is no surgeon, or whatever other expert you want to mention. You are just mis-using the language that's all. I think if you look up the definition of medical, you will see that these people are not "medically incompetent". Also I just know what I won't put into my body. I know what is in vaccines and have read the product monograph. Have you?

  1150. robertallen1

    And one could also use blood letting which went in the opposite direction, i.e., it is not practiced any more. However, medicine has come a long way since the days when doctors failed to wash their hands or employed leeches. Now, for the umpteenth time, provide me with one "alternate treatment" or "alternate medicine" which is currently being seriously considered for inclusion in mainstream medicine.
    To help you out, here's a definition from Wikipedia. "Alternative medicine is any of a wide range of health care practices, products and therapies, using methods of medical diagnosis and treatments which, at least up to the end of the twentieth century, were typically not included in the degree courses of established medical schools teaching western medicine, including surgery, in the tradition of the Flexner Report or similar.[1][2] Examples include homeopathy, Ayurveda, chiropractic and acupuncture." And don't mention chiropractic again, for it's not even being seriously considered by mainstream medicine.

  1151. robertallen1

    Non-responsive--and I believe I know the reason why.

  1152. robertallen1

    You might like to see the big picture, but you lack the education to do so. And the only reason you are not going to get into each individual "alternative" medical procedure (which, by the way, is not what I asked) is because you lack both the expertise and the knowledge.

  1153. Austin Chernencoff

    The future may hold many things, I don't pretend to know which alternative medicines will be adopted, but in my opinion some will be. Again for the umpteenth time I will not get into the semantics of arguing all the specific alternative medicines that will no doubt have sceptics and adopters. I could point out procedures used in mainstream medicine that are controversial, never mind the ones that are not already part. Vaccines being an example. There are MD's on both sides, both bringing up valid points. In the end we must all decide for ourselves. Also me and my brother have coined homeopathy Hooeyopathy. I agree many alternative medicines are a joke. I think you are misunderstanding my points here. I am not Austin alternative medicine champion, I just think it's unlikely that every single alternative medicine is useless.

  1154. Austin Chernencoff

    I have responded to this question several times. I will not have an argument of semantics with you. I just simply won't. It will go in circles. I see exactly how it will play out. I am simply stating an opinion. Agree or disagree.

  1155. robertallen1

    "Also I just know what I won't put into my body." As if this says anything. I too have read product monographs, but I don't claim to have the expertise to assess them and quite frankly neither do you. That's why when I wish for an elucidation, I ask my mainstream medical doctor.

  1156. Austin Chernencoff

    Maybe so, but I am still entitled to my opinion, and you yours. I am not insulting you or calling you incompetent. I respect your opinion even though you don't respect mine, and that's fine. Sometimes in life though you will find that not everything has concrete evidence to show how it works it just does, and until science progresses to the point were it can explain everything we will have these questions sticking around. Also I said I like to see the big picture, and that is true, however I will never see the big picture according to you. I would have to become an expert in every field of science, and it's not possible. The best I can do is be an expert of a few and know a bit about a lot. I like how you question things, that is a good reaction and I value the ability to do so, but sometimes that isn't the best way for progress to continue. Sometimes we have to keep an open mind to things we don't know or understand. Good luck Allen and I hope you have success in life.

  1157. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes I have a great comprehension of the English language. I don't know about you, but higher rates of miscarriage probably means the same thing to a doctor as it does to me.

  1158. robertallen1

    I haven't asked for a prediction, but rather for the names of a few current alternate treatment or medications which are now seriously being considered for inclusion in mainstream medicine and "I just think it's unlikely that every single alternative medicine is useless" doesn't even begin to approach an answer--and once again, what you think is onlyl so much garbage; it's what you can prove. .
    Now just why do you think vaccines are part of mainstream medicine (the only type of medicine that counts) (see Wikipedia article "vaccine" if you have any doubt of this)? Once again, I also suggest that you read the Wikipedia article on Andrew Wakefield and then tell me that vaccines are ineffective.

  1159. robertallen1

    Has nothing to do with semantics, but rather with your attempt to evade my question.

  1160. Austin Chernencoff

    I don't have all the answers. Never claimed to. There is legitimate opposition within the medical field itself. I have linked one doctor who does not agree. I just googled Andrew and the first thing it said he was known for on the wiki page was his fraudulent 1998 research paper. I don't care to read more than that. h tt p : // en .w ikipedia. or g/w iki/ Andrew_Wakefield

  1161. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes I am evading your question. I chose not to answer it because I think it is an argument about semantics. You don't like my given examples, and that's fine. I don't expect you to believe. I choose to keep an open mind to such things. That is my opinion and I don't need links to back it up, because it is MY opinion. Just leave it at that.

  1162. robertallen1

    "Maybe so, but I am still entitled to my opinion . . . " Another cry-baby expostulation of your legal rights?

    "Sometimes in life though you will find that not everything has concrete evidence to show how it works it just does, and until science progresses to the point were it can explain everything we will have these questions sticking around." Which questions are these? Without specificity, your statement means nothing.

    You're right. You will never become an expert in every field of science and no one ever will. So no one will ever have the "big picture," not even you. "The best I can do is be an expert of a few and know a bit about a lot." Ture, but what do you consider yourself an expert in? Certainly not immunology and the higher branches of medicine.
    "Sometimes we have to keep an open mind to things we don't know or understand." And just what are these?

    "I like how you question things, that is a good reaction and I value the ability to do so, but sometimes that isn't the best way for progress to continue." In addition to your other faults, you're a hypocrite.

  1163. robertallen1

    Are you placing yourself on the same level as a mainstream M.D. with years of education, training and experience? Perhaps this is just another of your groundless conjectures.

  1164. Austin Chernencoff

    "Sometimes we have to keep an open mind to things we don't know or understand." And just what are these?

    The answer is in the very statement you are quoting. Things we don't know or understand. So anything for you that falls under that category.

    "I like how you question things, that is a good reaction and I value the
    ability to do so, but sometimes that isn't the best way for progress to
    continue." In addition to your other faults, you're a hypocrite.

    That doesn't make me a hyprocrite. I value an open mind, and questioning things. If you are not open to new ideas you will never discover anything. I think that all ideas should be questioned, but questioning everything and condemning it at face value slows progress. Einstein's theory of relativity could have never been had he questioned everything without making a few leaps. Here's a quote from Einstein himself. "Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere."

  1165. robertallen1

    You have linked one doctor who does not agree, but as demonstrated in the article I provided, the mainstream medical field does and when it comes to a specialty such as medicine, in particular immunology and virology, the majority is usually right.
    That is just why I wanted you to read about ex-Dr. Wakefield and the disaster he left as a result of his fraud regarding the three-in-one vaccine.

  1166. Austin Chernencoff

    No I am not, I am just saying that some things can be understood by both doctors and other people as well. Do you think that the monograph was edited by a doctor? No it was done by someone who knows sentence structure better, and put together the monograph based on what the doctors were telling them. Also yes I happen to know what side effects are, and am totally capable of googling the ones I don't. Does every citizen need a Doctorate degree to know what the side effects of their medication is? Or is it on the side of the bottle, or on the ad?

  1167. robertallen1

    An opinion given without adequate backup on a scientific subject is suspect and worthless. And I won't just leave it at that.

  1168. Austin Chernencoff

    The article you provided was not made by a doctor, so by your own words he is now "medically incompetent". As far as the other guy, I have no stake in his career. I linked someone else, I don't care if you want me to follow you down your rabbit hole, of some failed MD. He might be right or not I don't care. I have linked something different, and have not once claimed vaccines cause autism. I will leave that speculation to others.

  1169. robertallen1

    I don't know what started the Big Bang. I don't know how life began. I don't know how the hummingbird manages to go such great distances on so little sustenance. But I don't keep an open mind to "God did it" and I condemn such a statement at face value.
    Questioning everything might slow certain things down while at the same time accelerating progress.
    P.S. Quotes from authority prove nothing and in Einstein's case, which leaps are you referring to?

  1170. Austin Chernencoff

    I know you won't Allen. However by your own admission here your opinion is just as worthless. So you need a Doctor to come say my opinion is worthless. You have no right to judge my opinion. I have linked a Doctor and I happen to agree with him. My personal experience has lead me to believe he is right. You are welcome to your scepticism, and a certain level is healthy in my opinion, but truly your denouncement is just as worthless as my pronouncement. Unless that is you can prove you are an MD in which case you could be lying. This is the internet after all. I could have claimed to be an MD or even made another account, and come in pretending to be a doctor and agreed with myself. In the end this conversation comes down to ideas, not qualifications. That's how I see things anyway.

  1171. Austin Chernencoff

    Your denouncement is just as worthless as my pronouncement. I will say it again.

  1172. robertallen1

    How do you know this about medical monographs? One way or the other, the doctor reads the final draft and has the final say.
    Every citizen certainly needs medical education, training and experience to properly assess the side effects of medications, especially with respect to individual patients. .

  1173. robertallen1

    At least the person who put this article quoted from a number of mainstream medical doctors.
    Why don't you read about what happened when people, believing this quackery, stopped taking the three-in-one vaccine. Then tell me that vaccines don't work.

  1174. Austin Chernencoff

    "Questioning everything might slow certain things down while at the same time accelerating progress."(sic)

    That is your opinion. What are you qualifications to make it?

    Also I told you which leaps, the leaps made in the theory of relativity. Time being the variable being just one, but if you don't know I suggest you research the subject further. I find that quote relevant to the subject at hand. It is talking about how logic although important can only take you from A-B. Imagination allows you to progress anywhere. If you don't get what he was talking about, maybe you never will.

    I am not claiming God did anything. I missed an o on the word good, perhaps this is what started this confusion? I have since edited. If you are saying this in relation to this conversation though I would have to say that I am agnostic. I don't reject things even if they have an infinitesimal chance of happening. I will however not pay attention to them because of such though. For instance I am not worried about going to hell based on basically zero chance.

  1175. robertallen1

    I admit that I am not competent to assess a medical report which is why I seek information from qualified mainstream medical professionals. Your problem is that you think you are and that's what makes your opinion suspect and worthless. Your personal experience which bespeaks no medical education of any substance cannot take the place of double-blind medical trials or the training, education and background of a qualified licensed medical professional.

  1176. Austin Chernencoff

    OOO I'm so scared. As stated before I take no vaccines and am not in the process of dying. I would also point out that a vaccine even if effective only protects you from one strain of influenza. So even vaccinated you are never truly safe from everything. I am not worried about what will happen to me if I don't receive a vaccination. Simply because I never have and it hasn't bothered me yet. Still alive, still working, what else matters?

  1177. Austin Chernencoff

    I requested a monograph. They have to send you one if you ask for it. I suggest anyone getting a vaccination to do the same. To use an analogy, you don't have to be a mechanic to know reading your user manual for your car is a good thing.

  1178. Austin Chernencoff

    No I am just repeating what some experts have said. Experts with whom I happen to agree with. It's not a problem it's an opinion based on what I have seen to be true in my life.

  1179. Austin Chernencoff

    Sorry I see you are asking how I know doctors didn't edit the monograph. It's obvious various lawyers and editors looked over it. Big business is involved, it would be naive to think that doctors had the final say.

  1180. Austin Chernencoff

    Another way of putting it is, we live in a society of specialists. Doctors let lawyers and editors do their job, and they let doctors do theirs.

  1181. robertallen1

    The operative word is "might" or did you deliberately miss it.

    The time variable of the theory of relativity had already been proposed by Michelson, Poincaré and Lorentz, among others. Einstein refined it or, if you prefer, took it further. He did not make a quantum leap. You're the one who needs to research the subject. Once again, a quote from authority proves nothing.

    As you seem to have missed the point, I will repeat the first paragraph: "I don't know what started the Big Bang. I don't know how life began. I don't know how the hummingbird manages to go such great distances on so little sustenance. But I don't keep an open mind to 'God did it' and I condemn such a statement at face value. Now how about comparing it with your concluding paragraph and figuring out why it is non-responsive.

  1182. robertallen1

    No one claims that a vaccine protects you from everything. In general, you're better off with it than without it and considering your attitude towards vaccination, I wouldn't want you living in my neighborhood and if you had children and refused to have them vaccinated, I would not hesitate to report you to the proper authorities. Once again, you as an individual do not constitute a large enough sampling for a meaningful double-bind scientific test.

  1183. robertallen1

    The user manual consists mostly of a description of features and a set of instructions, hardly enough for even a journeyman mechanic. A bottle of medicine contains the medicine, a list of ingredients, instructions for its use and a list of potential side effects. That's it. Once again, you need a medical education, training and experience to properly assess the entire situation, especially as it pertains to you, the patient or the user.

  1184. Austin Chernencoff

    The word might doesn't change the fact that it is your opinion. So what are your qualifications to say that something like that "might" be true? I didn't miss it by the way.

    Sure he shared imagination and an open mind with them, that doesn't prove your point. It only strengthens mine that you need a certain level of imagination. Pure logic and critical thinking alone does not make discoveries. You need new ideas, and then they may be subjected to such thought.

    As far as your last point I would ask you, what was yours? How is saying all that stuff not as unresponsive as my statement? What is your statement answering exactly? I already know how you don't take things at face value that's fine. You have said that in different ways many times. What does the point that you do not take statements at face value mean anything? Sure I responded by sharing how I view the same subject. It was as responsive and relevant as your comment.

  1185. Austin Chernencoff

    Hahhaha report me? It's not illegal here, you Orwellian dirt bag. There it is my first insult flung at you. I can't believe you would do that. I don't care if I am not a double blind study. I am attempting to share my thoughts and experiences on the internet, not start a revolution here.

  1186. robertallen1

    Once again, your personal experience as a virtual medical ignoramus is worthless.
    If you are just repeating what some experts have said, then you should say so, but instead you issue pronunciamentos anent, among other things, the efficacy of vaccines with no sources as if you have the background and training to do so.

  1187. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes that is what the product monograph contains too. Have you ever read one? That is a yes or no question by the way. You claim I avoid things but you rarely answer any of my questions.

  1188. robertallen1

    You don't know this. You're only surmising. Hence, you've posted another series of worthless statements.

  1189. Austin Chernencoff

    I gave sources actually. You didn't like them. To say I gave no sources is either dishonest, or dumb. So which is it? I'm not going to link the whole library of congress for you. I posted my links, love them or hate them.

  1190. Austin Chernencoff

    Have you ever read a product monograph? Yes or no.

  1191. robertallen1

    "Might" is not an assertion; thus, it needs no qualifications.
    My point was it was not the quantum leap which you make of it. Secondly, that is no reason to entertain every notion that comes along. New ideas, such as those of Einstein et al. come out of critical thinking and logic, not the other way around as you have it.
    My point was that when an idea is patently absurd, I reject it out of hand and the only way I will accept it is when hard evidence is presented in its favor.

  1192. robertallen1

    I wish you had some knowledge to go with your thoughts and experiences.
    P.S. I meant what I said.

  1193. robertallen1

    Yes, I have. Now how about re-reading my last sentence.

  1194. robertallen1

    Go back to your earlier posts which consisted mainly of pronunciamentos which you were and still are unqualified to make.

  1195. Austin Chernencoff

    Ok so you read, one. Why would you do that? You are no doctor. You must have understood nothing in it. So why did you bother reading one?

  1196. Austin Chernencoff

    I live in the present, and presently I have several links up. Besides I still stand by my past opinion. I don't need to be an MD to have one. You are welcome to your opinion that mine is worthless, but my opinion is that your opinion is stupid, close minded, and negative.

  1197. Austin Chernencoff

    "Might" is not an assertion; thus, it needs no qualifications.

    You are asserting something "might" be true. It is still an assertion. So again what are your qualifications? I assume you have none so your opinion lacks competence, and you should link sources proving that there is a probability of that being true.

    "My point was that when an idea is patently absurd, I reject it out of hand and the only way I will accept it is when hard evidence is presented in its favor."

    Well what is "patently absurd" is an opinion, and ignoring things based on face value is the definition of a closed mind. How will you ever find any "hard evidence" if you don't look?

    Also you are so clearly American it's painful. Most other places in the world do not legislate vaccination. Also you spelled favour the American way. Not only that your general attitude is clearly American. So red or blue? From the fact you would call the cops for a neighbour not vaccinating I would assume red. Especially since you think HMO is even close to socialized health care. You are confused, but that's ok. I don't expect you to know these things, being that you are in a bubble. I hear they don't even teach the war of 1812 in the States.

  1198. Austin Chernencoff

    I wish you had an open mind, and some debate etiquette.
    P.S. If you were my neighbour, I would move.

  1199. Austin Chernencoff

    So stupid people are not allowed to post on this site? I am pretty sure Vlatko made this site to help everyone better themselves, and learn things. I find your overall negative attitude to be what's wrong with the world. You are some sort of intellectual snob. You are not stupid, but I think your attitude towards people is.

  1200. robertallen1

    I understood them as far as my lay knowledge can take me--and you can do no more either.

  1201. robertallen1

    Once again, are you making a legal statement?
    If you mean that I'm particular about what I accept, you're right. When I want to know something about a specialized field such as medicine, I don't rely on ignoramuses like you.

  1202. robertallen1

    Once again "might" far from an assertion. Second, the subject of the sentence is not a specialized topic such as medicine.
    You really don't get it. The claimant is responsible for the production of hard evidence. I don't need to look for it.
    Where did I state that I thought my HMO was close to socialized health care. In case you didn't notice, I asked a question. I did not make a statement. So you've deliberately mischaracterized what I wrote and quite frankly, that's despicable.
    Once again, I meant what I said. If I had you for a neighbor and if find out that you were standing in the way of your children being vaccinated, not only would I report you to the proper authorities for health violations but for child endangerment as well. If that makes me an ugly American, sobeit.

  1203. robertallen1

    You would have to.

  1204. robertallen1

    Again, a legal determination?
    If you don't like what I post, I'm sure you're aware of your options.

  1205. Nathan Cory

    Fair enough. I understand now that you've told me how you feel :) But do their qualifications make something more or less factual? I'm not saying he's right or wrong, all I'm saying is that facts are facts - no matter the qualifications - and facts require deep enquiry. Arguing is a completely backward approach to serious enquiry. Maybe I'm being presumptuous here but it seems that unless they DO have medical qualifications of some sort then nothing you're told is going to satisfy. Even if they reference every book and footnote possible... Is this the case or not?

  1206. Nathan Cory

    See the thing is, if it were me, requesting references and titles and bookmarks and footnotes simply wouldn't be enough. Not only would I be hearing it second-hand from somebody I don't know on the internet, but I would also need to question the validity of the book, etc at hand. And in the end, it's knowledge!!! from books and word of mouth and experience.. No matter the qualifications, everything is questionable.

  1207. robertallen1

    There's a difference between baldly stating that vaccinations have no effect and that according to such and such, vaccinations have no effect. The first statement requires medical qualifications; the second does not. One way or the other, it takes medical qualifications to assess an article say on vaccinations.
    So you're right, unless they have medical qualifications of some sort, nothing I am TOLD is going to satisfy me.

  1208. Nathan Cory

    And if they do have qualifications? That will satisfy you?

  1209. robertallen1

    That's why sources are checked when they are provided and in a field as specialized as medicine, far more weight should be given to the trained professional rather than the generally ignorant amateur..
    Saying everything is questionable is the same as saying everything is possible--which is saying nothing.

  1210. robertallen1

    It will cause me to take what they have to say far more seriously than the ejaculations of someone without them.

  1211. Nathan Cory

    The beauty of real science, medicine included, is that it must be self-correcting and fallible. Qualified professionals must still be questionable too. Surely I don't need to reference all the times throughout history that this has proven to be the case. Particularly when real and good science can be limited by profit, ideals, agendas...

  1212. Nathan Cory

    Well that's absolutely fair enough. All I'm saying is that someone without them can't be completely denied either

  1213. Nathan Cory

    :) saying everything is questionable is saying everything is questionable.

  1214. robertallen1

    Where have I said that they shouldn't. But if my doctor prescribes a certain medication for me, I'm going to follow his advice because he knows more about medicine than I do--and I'm certainly not going to listen to someone without a medical background who only imagines himself to be qualified.

  1215. Nathan Cory

    Does he imagine himself to be qualified? I thought he stated he wasn't.

  1216. robertallen1

    Then all that person should be doing is citing qualified professionals, not making bald judgments and assessments.

  1217. robertallen1

    I suggest that you read some of his bald statements about vaccination.

  1218. Nathan Cory

    In a particular field, if I have all the same knowledge and experience as the person next to me, EXACTLY the same, but he has a degree and I do not, does that make his knowledge any more valid than mine?

  1219. Nathan Cory

    Take away the word bald. He made statements. "bald" is open to interpretation. You said he imagined himself to be qualified. Did he not state that he is not?

  1220. over the edge

    Nathan Cory
    you ask " but he has a degree and I do not, does that make his knowledge any more valid than mine?" with everything else being equal and on a forum such as this. yes. most of us do not know each other and the internet allows people to seem more knowledgeable than they are. but there is an easy way to filter out most of the nonsense in my opinion. provide evidence/facts and links that support your claim that others can check for themselves. if you claim "x" is bad and back it up with demonstrable evidence and someone with letters after their name claims "x" is good but can't/won't back it up then it will give your argument more creditability. for me personally testimonials,opinions, improper and biased studies or hollow claims mean nothing to me at all. that doesn't make them wrong, only useless for me as a guide to the truth

  1221. Nathan Cory

    You're absolutely right. I don't deny what you're saying. Although I don't believe that changes the validity of my point - I was trying to make a specific point with that example.

    In a way, what you finished off with in regards to truth, is what I was driving to originally. I think that one has to find truth for themselves. That's why I said no amount of info from somebody I don't know on the internet, is enough for me. Footnotes and references help, I don't deny that. So I would check their links - but also I would have to go beyond that. Then (personally) I would do everything in my power to prove it wrong, otherwise I would be biased in my approach.

  1222. Nathan Cory

    I'm just reading what I said - am I making any sense?

  1223. Nathan Cory

    I just don't feel that truth can be given. It must be found for one's self because part of 'truth' is the process...

  1224. robertallen1

    And just how could this possibly occur?

  1225. robertallen1

    Bald means statements made without substantiation--and yes, his assertions concerning vaccines clearly demonstrates that despite his lack of medical education and background, he considers himself qualified to make them.

  1226. robertallen1


  1227. Nathan Cory

    OK. Simple example:

    Say I get to graduation day with my buddy Johnny next to me. We both share the exact same level of knowledge and are equal in our expertise. But then when it comes to accepting the certificate, I accept and he gives them the finger. So now I have a qualification and he doesn't. Does that make him less knowledgeable than me?

  1228. Nathan Cory

    I thought he made it pretty clear that he doesn't consider himself qualified...

  1229. robertallen1

    I have no argument with that. However, if for example Laurence Krauss makes a statement about quantum mechanics, I'm certainly not going to question him or conduct further research to ascertain if his statement is correct.

  1230. robertallen1

    Without the certificate, Johnny has not proved his competence in the field to his peers--and that does make you more knowledgable.

  1231. Nathan Cory

    I also would likely be the same :) But one must be completely open to him being proven wrong yes? Otherwise it would no longer resemble science but more like something along the lines of a belief-structure...

  1232. Nathan Cory

    Are you serious?

  1233. robertallen1

    Read some of his earlier posts. If he doesn't consider himself qualified, then he should not be making bald statements about, for example, the efficacy of vaccination.

  1234. robertallen1

    Like any scientist, Dr. Krauss is open to the possibility of being proven wrong--however, possibility means nothing and probability everything.

  1235. robertallen1


  1236. Nathan Cory

    Not like any scientist. Scientists argue all the time due to being stuck in their ways. Global-warming for example. I can't speak for Dr Krauss because I Don't know him and I'm not him.

  1237. oQ

    My Canadian travelling consist of Quebec in most part, New Brunswick in parts, BC in the southern area mainly, crossing Canada a few times either by hitchhiking, bus, driving or flying.

    I admit there is much left for me to see. Somehow when i returned to Canada, it was mostly during summer time and since it is the nicest time to be in Quebec near my loved ones or in BC near my other loved ones...i didn't travel much.
    If i was to travel north in colder months, i would be tempted to go to Russia or Mongolia (which i have never visited). But i know Canada has much to offer above the 50th parallel north...would love to feel the long long days of sunlight....and the huge moskitos (not the malaria carrier).
    Anyone who wants to use pills or a trial vaccine for malaria is welcome to do so in my opinion. I will never tell them not to. I can only rule my self.

  1238. Nathan Cory

    :) Accepting a piece of paper or not determines their competence in their field?

  1239. robertallen1

    So what? It's one knowledgable, credentialed body arguing with another knowledgable, credentialed body. That's what science is all about and the debate on global warming is a fine example. However, the argument of being stuck in one's ways is on a par with that of thinking outside the box--meaningless.

  1240. robertallen1

    And that's fine, provided you don't use yourself as a one-person double-blind clinical trial.

  1241. robertallen1

    It's not accepted; it's given--and that paper attests to proven competence in the field before one's peers.

  1242. Nathan Cory

    I don't feel that science is about one knowledgeable credentialed body arguing with another knowledgeable credentialed body.

  1243. Nathan Cory

    In my example it was given to both. One simply refused while the other accepted.

  1244. robertallen1

    In that case, you would both have M.D. (assuming we're discussing medicine) or some similar designation after your names and the matter is mooted out.

  1245. robertallen1

    That's exactly what science is about, at least in that respect--not the ignorant arguing with the knowledgable, not the uncredentialed arguing with the credentialed.

  1246. dewflirt

    Bald or bold? ;)

  1247. Nathan Cory

    But one refused it. They've both been given - but one has refused. Now I have an M.D. and Johnny doesn't, even though we are (for examples sake) equal in our knowledge.

  1248. Nathan Cory

    Science is about observing the world around us and is based on facts. Arguing has nothing to do with what science is - in my opinion.

  1249. Nathan Cory

    bold :)

  1250. robertallen1

    Bald. A bold statement is fine if you have enough to back it up.

  1251. robertallen1

    How does one refuse an M.D.? All you can do is refuse to use it as part of your name, but for all intents and purposes, you are both M.D.'s.

  1252. robertallen1

    So in other words, the argument about global warming which you brought up has nothing to do with science.

  1253. Nathan Cory

    Put it a different way.

    One has knowledge and is recognized as having a qualification. They have a certificate to say so.

    The other has the same knowledge but is not recognized as having a qualification. They do not have a certificate.

    So how is one more knowledgeable than the other?

  1254. Nathan Cory

    Of course it does. But argument doesn't define science.

  1255. robertallen1

    No, they both are acknowledged. Only one refuses to accept the acknoweldgment.

  1256. robertallen1

    "I don't feel that science is about one knowledgeable credentialed body arguing with another knowledgeable credentialed body." I don't see the word define or any of its various forms.

  1257. Nathan Cory

    Yes so now, by your method of judgement which you described earlier, one now has more valid knowledge than the other because one has a certificate and one does not. See my point?

  1258. Nathan Cory

    Huh? You said science is about one knowledgeable credentialed body arguing with another knowledgeable credentialed body.

  1259. Nathan Cory

    and i said arguing is nothing to do with what science is about. Argument certainly takes place within the field of science but that's not what science is about...

  1260. robertallen1

    Now, you're moving the goal posts, but all right.
    I assume you mean THIS PERSON does not have a certificate. In that case, why would you be granted a certificate and he not be if you both have the same knowledge?

  1261. robertallen1

    Absolutely not. You're both for all intents and purposes M.D.'s.

  1262. robertallen1

    Notice, I did use the word define, but rather the locution "is about" i.e., this argumentation is one of its major components.

  1263. Nathan Cory

    :) I'm not moving goal posts. I'm not thinking of it like that. I'm trying to make what I feel is an important point and I think I've made my point clear enough to be understood by anybody who cares to understand it. You clearly said earlier that "Without the certificate, Johnny has not proved his competence in the field to his peers--and that does make you more knowledgable." I'm simply making a point that that may not be the case.

  1264. Nathan Cory


  1265. robertallen1

    You've given two different scenarios. In one case, Johnny refused the certificate and in the other he was refused it. Hence, two different conclusions.

  1266. Nathan Cory

    He was never refused it. where did i say that?

  1267. robertallen1

    "The other has the same knowledge but is not recognized as having a qualification. They do not have a certificate." I take this to mean a refusal to issue.

  1268. Nathan Cory

    :) I don't see how but that's not what I meant. S*it if I don't turn this computer off I'm going to sleep through my alarm. Work in 4 hours ;) night x

  1269. Austin Chernencoff

    I backed up all of my previous statements with links. I see you didn't comment on the link I posted about water being good for your immune system. That was a scholarly article, straight from the horses mouth. Say what you want, but these are just my opinions, and you have your opinion that I'm wrong. If you repeat your sorry opinion that I'm not qualified or whatever again, I'm going to vomit. I have just stated what I believe the fact that you care so much as to have this never ending debate with me about it is sad. I am tired of defending my opinion to someone who will never believe anything that doesn't come out of fox news.

  1270. Austin Chernencoff

    Even if I didn't, and even if doing so cost me a great deal of money, I would still move away from you. I would rather smack myself in the head with a hammer 9 times a day, than be anywhere near you. Your backwards close minded thinking, to me is what is wrong with the U.S.A. At least you are not also Christian, I'll give you that :)

  1271. Austin Chernencoff

    I would love a collaboration, I am always willing to learn something knew. If new evidence is presented that is contrary to what I believe I will try my best to view it objectively. As much as is humanly possible anyway. Thanks for the input, I appreciate it.

  1272. Austin Chernencoff

    I think there is a great deal you do not understand, and are making no attempt to. I agree that before ideas get published or put on the news it should be scrutinized as such, but this isn't the news. It is an internet conversation, and qualifications mean absolutely nothing here, because I could be making them up. Again can we discuss the content not the character please?

  1273. Austin Chernencoff

    The word science comes from the Latin "scientia," meaning knowledge. That is all. It's not about credentials or anything else. It is just about knowledge. I would like to share my knowledge without having my credibility attacked. you can dispute it if you like, but to say that I'm wrong based on my lack of training is silly, and unscientific.

  1274. Austin Chernencoff

    Wow really? Again proving you are the biggest arguer of semantics ever.You know what he means, stop this. Here, how about this, he missed a payment for tuition right at the end so they didn't give him one.

  1275. Austin Chernencoff

    He does see your point, just refuses to agree. He is playing devils advocate.

  1276. Austin Chernencoff

    Sure did, and I implore anyone reading my statements to please research them themselves, and dispute them. I do not pretend to be an authority, I only intended to share my opinion based on what I have seen to be true in my sad unqualified life. I have posted links that I consider relevant, and will leave the rest to others.

  1277. Austin Chernencoff

    Also FYI that was a joke, but I do happen to know that water is good for the immune system, as I have linked relevant sources above, proving it.

  1278. Austin Chernencoff

    If only robertallen1 was so lucky :)

  1279. Austin Chernencoff

    Wow really your statement was a lie. Male mosquitoes don't bite, which is why they don't spread the disease. I posted a link about this fact too. So wait and see or just google mosquito, right now.

  1280. Austin Chernencoff

    Notice how he doesn't reply after you posted this link. Seems to be a pattern, every time someone posts something that is indisputable, he moves over to the next thing he can attack. Also I have been to the Yukon, and it is a great place to go. It is neat being in the daylight at 2am. It almost kind of warps time, in that it feels like 8pm and will be much, much later. I hope the best for you and your travels.

  1281. Austin Chernencoff

    "It's an insult that anyone so ignorant as to call Socrates the father of modern medicine should be posting on this site."

    This is a really sad point of view. I am not insulted that someone is on this site trying to learn something, and frankly, neither should you. They have just as much right as you to comment here. Also, they have just as much right to vote, and I hope that scares you.

  1282. Austin Chernencoff

    I disagree with your point. If he had said, "is their credibility any less valid than mine", then I would have agreed with you, but the knowledge is the same. This was his point as I understood it. For instance if a physicist and I both know gravity makes things fall, how is my knowledge of that fact any different than the physicists? I agree that he has more credibility to make the claim, and may have done experiments measuring all the various effects, but the knowledge of "gravity makes things fall" remains the same.

  1283. Austin Chernencoff

    You are welcome to your belief in the "herd immunity" theory. I disagree, and have looked into both sides. I agree if done properly there can be some use for vaccines, but I don't think all the preservatives and other things in vaccines are safe. So I will stay away.

  1284. robertallen1

    Wrong. I commented on the article on hydration. Just go back and find it.
    What makes you think I even watch Fox News or is this another of your strawmen?
    You do not have the medical credentials to assess the efficacy of vaccines or much less anything about medicine and without them your opinions are only so much garbage.. So vomit away.

  1285. robertallen1

    When someone makes bald statements which go against the mainstream in a field as specializied as medicine, immunology in particular, I want to know that person's qualifications, whether it's on the internet or elsewhere.

  1286. robertallen1

    I did comment on that link. Go back and look for it.
    Without a medical background, you are not qualified to comment on the efficacy of vaccinations and your opinion is only so much garbage. So vomit away.

  1287. robertallen1

    Etymology has nothing to do with it. When you go against mainstream science, especially in your claim that vaccines do nothing and for support proffer one article by a maverick physician which is held in disregard by his peers, I will attack your credibility, especially since you have no medical credentials.

  1288. robertallen1

    If he had missed a tuition payment, the institution would probably not have let me continue taking courses.

  1289. robertallen1

    I did also state that only few species of mosquito are responsible for yellow fever or malaria which is why I indicated the possibility of her having been bit by another type. Why don't you read carefully?

  1290. robertallen1

    Once again, are you making a legal statement?

  1291. oQ

    It really is none of your business what 2 parents choose for their kids concerning vaccines.

    "The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) notes the dilemma faced by many parents in that vaccines are a very safe and important health intervention, but are neither risk-free nor 100% effective. It advises physicians to respect the refusal of parents to vaccinate their child after adequate discussion, unless the child is put at significant risk of harm (e.g., during an epidemic, or after a deep and contaminated puncture wound); under such circumstances, the AAP states that parental refusal of immunization constitutes a form of medical neglect and should be reported to state child protective services agencies.[12]I


  1292. robertallen1

    It's the same thing as saying that certain bacteria are deadly. If you had made such a pedestrian statement, I would not have questioned your credentials, but you have pronounced on other far more specialized matters which require backup AND CREDENTIALS.

  1293. robertallen1

    Once again, when you go against the mainstream, you need both backup AND QUALIFICATIONS, otherwise; your opinion is garbage.

  1294. robertallen1

    As I consider the refusal of parents to have their children vaccinated putting not only them by other children at significant risk of harm and I would exercise my legal right to report the matter to the proper authorities. Now, if the agency to which I do report the matter feels otherwise, then I have at least done my duty.

  1295. Austin Chernencoff

    Simple or complex, if I have the same knowledge my point stands. I used that example because it was simple.

  1296. Austin Chernencoff

    Haha, Ok I saw this one coming. I thought of editing the idea, but chose to leave it, because I just knew you would respond this way. I love that you have made my prediction come true. You are just further proving my point that you will always argue semantics.

  1297. robertallen1

    But without credentials, you don't have the same knowledge.

  1298. robertallen1

    Then choose your words carefully.

  1299. robertallen1

    I'm merely responding to your repetitive posts.

  1300. Austin Chernencoff

    I did, and got the expected argument of semantics. Like I said I saw the loophole, but left it just so you could further prove that you argue semantics. You obviously know what he was getting at, but you chose to ignore that and argue every possible alternative. So here I actually have thought of another scenario for this thought experiment, and here it is.

    Let's say that 2 people have the same exact knowledge on the given subject, but one learned it in another country which is not recognized in the USA. The other person got his certification in the USA. Would you think that the foreign person's knowledge even though identical (for the sake of argument) was any less true?

  1301. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes you do. You are missing the point, perhaps on purpose. I will say it again though, simple or complex if the knowledge is the same, then neither is more valid or true than the other, because they are identical.

  1302. Austin Chernencoff

    With a repetitive post? Even if my posts were saying the same thing over and over again, why would you think that doing the same would change anything?

  1303. robertallen1

    First of all, by not recognized in the USA, do you mean political recognition, academic recognition, etc.? If the latter, which countries are not recognized in the USA?
    One way or other, it is not a matter of country.

  1304. robertallen1

    No, you're missing the point. You have not provided one practical, down-to-earth example where the knowledge between the credentialed and the uncredentialed is the same.

  1305. Austin Chernencoff

    Does it matter, again you are dodging the question, but here I'll give you a country, India. The doctors through some miracle achieved the exact same set of skills and knowledge, but one is not recognized in the USA. Yes I am referring to academic recognition. Basically he is not allowed to practice, yet has all the same skills and knowledge. Do you really think that they would know less based on that certification? I am not talking about credibility, they would definitely be less credible.

  1306. robertallen1

    You forget that this is a public website and that you and I are not the only posters.

  1307. Austin Chernencoff

    I don't have to. The whole idea is if the same knowledge were to be obtained through whatever means, one person certified, and the other not. How would their knowledge be different? You are dodging the question, I don't need a real life experience. Consider it a thought experiment.

  1308. Austin Chernencoff

    Wait so let me try and follow your logic here. You are saying, because other people can post on this site, that repeating yourself over, and over makes sense? I don't quite follow you on this one. What's the point exactly? In case they didn't read the other times you wrote it down?

  1309. robertallen1

    His inability to practice in the USA is irrelevant, for this can be quickly remedied should he decide to practice here. At least he has medical credentials.
    Why you bring in country is beyond me.

  1310. Austin Chernencoff

    Not true. I actually heard of a real life case of this happening. Not the identical knowledge part, but a doctor in India was not recognized, and would have to start from scratch if he wanted to be a doctor in North America. Here I'll try and find you a link, I heard about it on the CBC news.

  1311. robertallen1

    And just how could the same knowledge, in this case medicine, be obtained by someone who didn't get through medical school?

  1312. robertallen1

    To drive home the point as far as medicine, and especially vaccines, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

  1313. Austin Chernencoff

    Again you are distracting from the main point though. Arguing semantics, and avoiding the question at all costs. You can't admit that if someone has the same knowledge and no credentials, that they know the same thing. This is sheer lunacy. If someone knows the same thing, piece of paper or not, they know the same thing. Why is that so hard to grasp. You are trying real hard not to.

  1314. robertallen1

    One way or the other, he has medical credentials, but I would be interested in your link, for I'd be interested in finding out why he would have to start all over again.
    Incidentally, I thought we were taking about the U.S. Now you've moved the goal post to all of North America which is a continent as opposed to a country.

  1315. Austin Chernencoff

    Semantics, semantics. Have you never heard of a thought experiment? I said just for the sake of argument, but you insist on dirtying the water with this mulberry bush BS. It doesn't matter how. It doesn't, would you let that go, let's just say(again) for the sake of argument the knowledge is the same, how would a piece of paper change the knowledge?

  1316. robertallen1

    I'm asking as a practical matter how this can happen. As a matter of fact, how can it be determined that these two individuals have the virtually the same medical knowledge?

  1317. Austin Chernencoff

    So wait what? You have said that you have repeated yourself over and over again to drive home the point that I don't know what I'm talking about? Yet you have not actually proven this. You have proven I don't have qualifications, (never said I had any) you have not proven me wrong.

  1318. Austin Chernencoff

    You never will with your debate style either. A straw man argument doesn't actually prove, or disprove anything, it only works to discredit. Not the same thing.

  1319. Austin Chernencoff

    hahahahhaha you are truly hopeless.

  1320. Austin Chernencoff

    Ok now it's funny, but let us say you clone someone, and download the information into their heads matrix style. One receives certification the other does not, because the guy handing out the certificates thought he was a jerk, even though they were the same person(he was confused). Also the one without the certification has no intentions on ever becoming certified. So they both have literally identical knowledge. Would the other one not know the same things?

  1321. robertallen1

    If it's not practical or realistic such as your hypothetical, I find no reason to consider it.

  1322. robertallen1

    In support of your uncredentialed statements on the efficacy of vaccination, you have provided one article from a maverick physician who, as the link I have provided clearly demonstrates, has been unequivocally rebutted by a number of M.D.'s in the mainstream medical establishment. You are not qualified to assess the validity of this doctor's claim; these people are. This is good enough for me.

  1323. robertallen1

    Unlike you, I don't claim knowledge that I don't have. One has only to go through your posts to realize the invalidity of strawman claim.

  1324. robertallen1

    How could this ever be done? I don't consider hypotheticals unless there is some practicality or viability attached to them.

  1325. Austin Chernencoff

    A maverick physician? During his residency training he worked with the eminent neurosurgeon, Dr. Ludwig Kempe. Together they developed the transcallosal removal of intraventricular tumors, which is still used today. That is far from a maverick physician. He practiced neurosurgery for 25 years. I have linked the source proving this. Your opinion means nothing. I would stack Doctor Russell Blaylock's prestigious career against any of those other doctors.

  1326. robertallen1

    As you do not have the medical qualifications to assess Dr. Bloaylock's statements while those mainstream doctors cited in the rebuttal article do, why would you stack Dr. Blaylock against those other doctors?

  1327. Emergency Stop

    Ok Austin, thats your choice to make but I think it's an irresponsible one.

  1328. robertallen1

    Indeed it is, which is why I wouldn't want him or his unvaccinated family in my neighborhood or in the public schools.

  1329. Austin Chernencoff

    Ok then don't. You bring about as much as a rock does to a conversation, I hope you know that.

  1330. Austin Chernencoff

    I never claimed to have knowledge I don't have. I only asserted my opinion on alternative medicine.

  1331. robertallen1

    And you bring as much knowledge and intelligence to a conversation as a rock and I hope that you know that as well.

  1332. Austin Chernencoff

    Well you're no fun at all are you? Not even for the sake of argument? Which you seem to love so much? O well I tried, but I don't care to try any more. I liked the idea of it anyway. Somehow I knew you wouldn't answer though. You never will, not even in a ridiculous scenario such as that, you can't even admit that knowledge could potentially be the same between someone certified, and another person who is not. Even in an impossible scenario, kind of sad really.

  1333. Austin Chernencoff

    I looked at his qualifications, which I don't believe you need an MD to understand. Also Dr. Blaylock is mainstream in that he worked in the industry for 25 years. He may not share the mainstream opinion, but that doesn't make him a maverick, or not mainstream.

  1334. robertallen1

    Which as clearly shown is based on nothing.

  1335. robertallen1

    Certainly not in modern science.
    But I'm glad to see you admit that your scenario was ridiculous and imossible.

  1336. robertallen1

    As far as vaccinations, he is definitely not in the mainstream; hence he is a maverick..
    One way or the other, your post is non-responsive.

  1337. Austin Chernencoff

    That is your opinion. I don't think it is irresponsible. I am not responsible for everyone's health, and it's not illegal not to be vaccinated. I also don't see measles and other diseases running rampant at the moment, so I am happy and feel justified with my decision.

  1338. robertallen1

    No, but it is if he comes across a violation (remember, this is a matter of public health) and in this country, you are responsible for your children's welfare and vaccination is part of it. So it's up to you to convince the authorities that by refusing to have your children vaccinated you're fulfilling your obligation.

  1339. Austin Chernencoff

    I wouldn't want you in my neighbourhood either, infecting my children with your unhealthy scepticism. Keep your poison to yourself, and I am referring to both vaccines and your attitude.

  1340. Austin Chernencoff


  1341. Austin Chernencoff

    So is yours, as you have admitted. You agreed that you don't have the authority to claim what I say is false. Your denouncements are just as worthless as my pronouncements.

  1342. robertallen1

    If vaccines were poison, why is vaccination so widely accepted and practiced by mainstream medicine?
    And since when is it unhealthy to be sceptical of someone who speaks without background, without qualifications?

  1343. Austin Chernencoff

    Ha yes it was. I made it for fun, but you are not fun so you can't even indulge in a thought like this for a second. You couldn't even say "yes their knowledge would be the same but that scenario is never going to happen" and I find that a little sad.

  1344. robertallen1

    No, but mainstream medicine does and that's all that matters.

  1345. Austin Chernencoff

    Well if by maverick you mean an independent-minded person, then I agree. He is not agreeing with the American O kee dok, and I think he is right. He definitely knows medical science, having helped create modern surgical procedures. You can argue he is a maverick, but that doesn't mean he is A-wrong or B-unqualified.

  1346. robertallen1

    And I find it even sadder that you're trying to put words in my mouth.

  1347. Austin Chernencoff

    I am pretty sure that is only in some states. As limited as my knowledge is about your laws I am positive this is not true in all states. And I don't consider it irresponsible to even given it being illegal.

  1348. Austin Chernencoff

    I don't know all the answers, but perhaps because it's a business. I have linked thimerosal which contains mercury, which is regarded as a toxin. Still used in vaccinations. It's use is very controversial, yet it is still used.

  1349. Austin Chernencoff

    Ok they have the authority, but are they right? I don't think so and there is a growing population of doctors who don't either. Of course you wouldn't hear about them really, being that you live in the media bubble known as the USA.

  1350. Austin Chernencoff

    I am not trying to put words into your mouth. I am really just stating what I wish you were like. I wish you were able to maintain your opinion while keeping an open mind, but you are not.

  1351. robertallen1

    I've told you on what I base my conclusion that he is wrong, namely what mainstream medical professionals have to say about his statements. Now, why do you think he's right? Is it merely because you regard him as an "independent-minded person?" As a matter of fact, where is your outside evidence to support your contention that he is right?

  1352. robertallen1

    I don't keep an open mind to nonsense. Now, when you can present me without enough irrefutable evidence to support your position (i.e., more than one maverick physician), I will start to take you seriously.

  1353. robertallen1

    The feds are also involved. One way or the other, you break the law, you take the consequences which in this neck of the woods could be dire.

  1354. robertallen1

    You don't know any of the answers which is why your resort to surmises. As for thimerosal, see FDA, "Thimerosol in Vaccines" which is on the internet and the Wikipedia article on the substance. In short, your argument is merely strawman.

  1355. robertallen1

    Considering your lack of medical credentials, what you think is only so much garbage, especially when your only evidence consists of surmises. Just who are the members of this growing population of doctors?

  1356. Austin Chernencoff

    Hahahha I trust the FDA revolving door, like I trust a bullet to the head.

  1357. robertallen1

    And it's times like this that I'm proud to expose you for what you are.

  1358. robertallen1

    And I trust ignorant little conceited you as much as I trust a rabid dog not to attack me.

  1359. Austin Chernencoff

    Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

  1360. Austin Chernencoff

    Well I would trust that same dog as much as your beloved FDA. I love how they approved RGBH yet in Canada it got denied, because Monsanto was caught bribing Canadian health officials. I'm so sure that the FDA wasn't bribed at all though....hahaha. Drink up my ignorant American friend. Enjoy your "Freedom".

  1361. robertallen1

    Does this mean that you are on your way out?

  1362. Austin Chernencoff

    Perhaps, only time can tell. Tell me though, do you feel well? Any colds lately? You should go get another vaccination, and while your at it why don't you have a nice coke zero, because hey the FDA said they were safe. It must be so.

  1363. Austin Chernencoff

    Since you love double blind studies so much, perhaps you would be kind enough to provide me with one double blind, peer reviewed study proving the long term safety and efficacy of vaccines.

  1364. robertallen1

    "I'm so sure that the FDA wasn't bribed at all though . . . " constitutes not evidence, but surmise, part and parcel of just about everything you write.

  1365. Austin Chernencoff

    Well let's see it has been proven to be unsafe, and got denied in Canada, because when found to be unsafe by Canadian authorities, and they were already going to deny it's approval they got bribed. They however did not give in. Either way you look at it, it's not safe. Also any word on that double blind study showing the long term safety of vaccines?

  1366. robertallen1

    I can't even choose not to pay taxes. I can't even choose not to send my children to school. It's terrible. What a farce.

  1367. Austin Chernencoff

    Actually you can. there is no law in your constitution saying that you have to pay income tax at least. Funny you should say that. No I won't provide a link for you. I could care less if you pay taxes.

  1368. robertallen1

    Not really, an occasional sneeze or two. I've already had my vaccination, but I thank you for your concern. The FDA said that yogurt is safe, but I just don't like it, so I don't ingest it, the same with coke zero.

  1369. oQ

    i see you get many likes on this one. You got mine too.

  1370. robertallen1

    The Cochran collaboration is full of them.

  1371. Austin Chernencoff

    So do you think you can provide me with one double blind, peer reviewed study proving the long term safety and efficacy of vaccines? Still waiting.

  1372. robertallen1

    Once again, surmise does not constitute proof. Again, where is your proof that the FDA was bribed?

  1373. Austin Chernencoff

    Link it. Still waiting patiently. You say burden of proof all the time, well in this case you are making the positive claim that vaccines are safe. Why should I take one? Again I will repeat myself, since I am learning from your example, So provide me with one double blind, peer reviewed study proving the long term safety and efficacy of vaccines.

  1374. Austin Chernencoff

    Ok I agree, and saying there are tons of double blind studies that show the long term safety, and efficacy of vaccines doesn't prove anything either. Still waiting on that source. *taps foot*

  1375. robertallen1

    Read the Sixteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. As usual, you write from ignorance.

  1376. Austin Chernencoff

    Ok you're right, I don't care it's a non point. Have that source yet? Still waiting.

  1377. robertallen1

    So it's a popularity contest conducted in a miniscule microcosm.
    P.S. You owe me an apology for your patent lie about my acceptance of only those links which I post and until I receive it, I'm going to keep reminding you.

  1378. robertallen1

    I've already answered you or did you notice.

  1379. Austin Chernencoff

    Ha are you not the one always going off about the mainstream being right? Now all of a sudden numbers don't matter? You just jump to whatever side seems like it will win.

  1380. robertallen1

    I've already given you the source and hence I have fulfilled my obligation. The rest is up to you.

  1381. robertallen1

    How many times do I have to tell you, Cochrane collaboration?

  1382. Austin Chernencoff

    None of those contain double blind studies. Please make sure it is a double blind study, showing the long term safety and efficacy of vaccines, still waiting.

  1383. robertallen1

    Thanks, Epicurus, but as I am sure you are well aware, the Cochrane collaboration has tons of them.

  1384. Austin Chernencoff

    Waiting for a link, which you yourself have deemed important. I am not going to go on a fishing expedition. Put up or shut up. Still waiting for that double blind study that shows the long term safety and efficacy of vaccines.

  1385. Austin Chernencoff

    You have given no source, you states there were lots. Am I to take your word for it, or do you expect me to search it out myself, because I didn't find one. So I am still waiting for that source.

  1386. Austin Chernencoff

    That isn't good enough. You can't just say that, link the source or admit there isn't one.

  1387. robertallen1

    There's a world of difference between the consensus of the hoi polloi and that of specialists in their field.
    Once again, you owe me an apology for your patently fraudulent claim that I accept only those links which I post and I'm not going to let you forget it.

  1388. Austin Chernencoff

    Actually not one of those are a double blind study, so I am still waiting as I have not received a valid link as of yet. You yourself claim that the double blind is so important. I am eager with anticipation.

  1389. Austin Chernencoff

    I don't owe you anything, but I think you owe me a link to that double blind study you keep talking about. Still waiting on the proof.

  1390. robertallen1

    As I have provided you with a clear and definite source, I don't have to link it.

  1391. oQ

    You owe myriads of people apologies for being rude and addressing them in a way that goes against the rules of TDF, i will remind you as often as i please when you add to the pile.
    And no apologies coming from me...as i said you accept only those links you post when you dissagree with someone and since you disagree with me on everything, therefore my comment is valid.

  1392. Austin Chernencoff

    I'm a big time sceptic too, I am just a sceptic for vaccines. The burden of proof lies with you not me. provide that double blind study that shows the long term safety and efficacy of vaccines.

  1393. Austin Chernencoff

    O so what you are immune to your own rules? I think that is dishonest and despicable. Although I know why you won't. Simply put, there isn't one. It doesn't exist. Check and mate. Link it or admit you are wrong.

  1394. oQ

    As of July 2012, all 50 states allow vaccination exemptions for medical reasons; 48 states allow exemptions for religious reasons; and 19 states allow exemptions for philosophical reasons.2

    Medical exemptions are determined by a physician. These may occur when a child is allergic to some vaccine components or has an immune deficiency, such as occurs when being treated for cancer.

    Religious exemptions are allowed when immunizations contradict the parent’s sincere religious beliefs.

    Philosophical exemptions refer to other non-religious beliefs held by the parents who do not believe that their child should be immunized.

    In most states, a child can attend school or day care if a proper exemption is obtained. However, when there is an outbreak of vaccine-preventable disease, children who have not had the disease and who have not been vaccinated are often excluded from school or day care until the risk of contracting the disease is over.

    Mississippi and West Virginia are the only states that do not allow exemptions for religious reasons. The 19 states that allow exemptions for philosophical reasons are Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, California, Colorado, Ohio, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin.

  1395. Austin Chernencoff

    Thanks. I found this enlightening and informative. I guess the USA is not as bad as some people would make it seem. Although in Canada you can not be excluded from school for not being vaccinated, but not nearly as draconian as I was lead to believe.

  1396. Austin Chernencoff

    Is it true though that the federal government could intervene though? I have heard many bad things about the feds and medical marijuana?

  1397. oQ

    I am Canadian but have lived at one time in California with my kids, i used the philosophical reason and it was accepted in a flash...actually many people did.

  1398. oQ

    There are no federal government laws concerning Vaccine...according to CDC "No federal vaccination laws exist, but all 50 states require certain
    vaccinations for children entering public schools".

  1399. robertallen1

    "(i'll let you check as you seem to discredit people's source if it's not yours)," You even lie about what you post.

  1400. robertallen1

    So you've already gone through the Cochrane collaboration? I don't believe you.

  1401. Austin Chernencoff

    I see, thanks for the information. I didn't think so, but it's nice to hear it from someone who seems enlightened, and also has experience with the US of A. I can't tell you how refreshing it is to have a normal conversation. :)

  1402. Austin Chernencoff

    I wasn't able to find what you are talking about with a google search. Please link it.

  1403. robertallen1

    Read the entire sentence, please. Now, provide me with some instances in which I have out and out lied.

  1404. Austin Chernencoff

    I actually already have linked that information, now can you do the same for that study you keep talking about?

  1405. Austin Chernencoff

    Also what does "out and out lied" mean?

  1406. oQ

    I posted a link for the new list of Vaccine (meaning no vaccine) friendly doctors States by States but it was taken down by moderators.

    The source is legit...and shows the address of pediatricians and doctors residing in most States.

    Look for *Baby Center, New List Of Vaccine Friendly Doctors States by States*.

  1407. Austin Chernencoff

    That's weird that it wouldn't be allowed. It seems that I stumbled into a pro vaccination site here. Also it is good to see that at least some people care. That site seems well put together and useful. I don't really plan on moving to the states any time soon, but I will definitely give this link to anyone I know that is planning too. Thanks.

  1408. thinkagainagain

    Ever heard of WC Handy? Memphis is the home to pretty much all purely American music.

  1409. Austin Chernencoff

    Well the USA is actually ahead on some social issues I find. I mean when is the last time you heard about a black leader in Europe? I suppose France has a black party leader right now, but I would love to hear about any black leader in Europe.

  1410. robertallen1

    And just what is "purely American music?" I remember when W. C. Handy passed away, shortly after the film about his life.

  1411. Austin Chernencoff

    No but I have now. I looked it up and it does say he is the father of the blues. Although a lot of sites also say that Mississippi is the home of the blues. I find this interesting though, could WC be the father while Mississippi is the home? Ha, kind of funny, an interesting dichotomy.

  1412. thinkagainagain

    Well we do have a Black President.

  1413. robertallen1

    "Randomized, double-blind Phase I Trial of an Alphavirus Replicon Vaccine for Cytomegalovius. Alphavox dot com - Technology, Presentation, 3rd option.

    "Primary Immunization of Infants with an Acellular Pertussis Vaccine in a Double-Blind Randomized Clinical Trial." Pediatrics

    "Randomized Double-Blind, Phase III, Pivotal Field Trial of the Comparative Immunology, Safety and Tolerability of Two Yellow Fever 17 Vaccines." American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene

    "Double-Blind Vaccine-Controlled Randomised Efficacy Trial of an Investigational Shingella Sonnei Conjugate Vaccine in Young Adults." The Lancet

    "The Salk Vaccine Trials."

    You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

  1414. Austin Chernencoff

    Can you put down a normal link? What is all this? You expect me to sift through all of this, I said just post one link, I don't see one. By your own admissions, links are important. Just put in spaces, and send me somewhere more specific.

  1415. Austin Chernencoff

    *no results found* That is what google said when I searched just one part of this. Are you simply making this up? You think it would have yielded results upon copy pasting.

  1416. robertallen1

    Where did I say that there have to be links, only specific references which I've provided--and all of these are on the internet. This is as far as I'm going. Act accordingly.

  1417. robertallen1

    I have no problem finding them. You'd better not be accusing me of making up these sources.

  1418. Austin Chernencoff

    Also remember that I have asked for a double blind study on the "long term" effects. Also I found one of those studies and it was 24 years old.(Primary immunization of infants with an acellular pertussis vaccine in a double-blind randomized clinical trial.)Also it is a double blind study comparing one vaccine to another one? How is that conclusive.

  1419. Austin Chernencoff

    I'm not, I am asking for a link, so I can see exactly what you are talking about.

  1420. thinkagainagain

    Memphis, like a magnet, drew all the bluesmen. It sits right on the Mississippi state line.

  1421. Austin Chernencoff

    Ummm my initial curare comment. I literally put the search words in, and you said it wasn't good enough.

  1422. robertallen1

    So what if it's 24 years old. It obviously demonstrates the effectiveness of vaccines.
    And don't you ever accuse me of making up sources again.

  1423. robertallen1

    You know as little about the history of the blues as you do about medicine. The term blues referred to the blue uniforms of members of marching bands and the original blues were marches, as was the famous St. Louis Blues. It only later became slowed down to the form now known.

  1424. robertallen1

    Because your words did not target a specific article. Mine do.

  1425. Austin Chernencoff

    No it doesn't. First off it doesn't compare a vaccine to a placebo, it has two vaccines. That doesn't make any sense at all. Also I asked for a double blind study on the long term efficacy and safety, you have not provided this. I actually did finally get all of your sources working, and every single one is just a double blind study pitting one vaccine against the other. This is not a double blind study showing the efficacy of vaccines vs no vaccine. I am still waiting.

  1426. thinkagainagain

    And of course the doctor who started this no vaccine crap has been stripped of his medical license. One doc in the US has been sent to prison for his fraud.

  1427. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes they did, I even said first link, giving even more description of which I was referring too. You like making rules, but you don't like following them. Why is it you can't copy paste an url anyway?

  1428. Austin Chernencoff

    "no vaccine crap" Wow nice language. Whoever that was should move to Canada where they don't have compulsory vaccination. The more the merrier, and may our infectious diseases travel south.

  1429. Austin Chernencoff

    I didn't accuse you of making up sources, I just said it didn't work for me. You are so testy. Also, or what? Are you going to come to my home and beat me up? Are you threatening me now?

  1430. Austin Chernencoff

    So you don't have any double blind studies that show the long term efficacy and safety of vaccines. That's what I thought. I am still waiting on that study, and it would be nice if it wasn't a double blind study pitting one vaccine against another, as that doesn't really prove your point. Love that these studies are numerous and easy to find, yet you have found none. Seriously post a real link.

  1431. thinkagainagain

    Don't care what Canada does. Vaccines have saved more lives than anything in the history of mankind.

    Perhaps public health measures may run a close second.

  1432. robertallen1

    Does the Alphavox article merely pit one vaccine against another?

    One way or the other, these articles demonstrate the efficacy of vaccines which is all that's needed to show you up for the ignoramus that you are, especially as evidenced by your pathetic rejection of herd immunity.

  1433. robertallen1

    Remember, this is a public site. A poster can respond to any post he desires.

  1434. robertallen1

    You're obviously referring to Andrew Wakefield who deserves every rotten thing that has happened and will happen to him. However, which U.S. doctor are you referring to.

  1435. robertallen1

    And seriously demonstrate how these articles do not demonstrate the efficacy of vaccination.

  1436. Austin Chernencoff

    No it is not all I needed to know, and which article are you referring too, alphavox article? Which is that, don't use the product name, use the actual name please, or simply link the article again. Am I pathetic, or have you failed a simple request. Again please link a double blind study showing the long term efficacy and safety of vaccines, and no if it doesn't have a placebo against the vaccine it is not valid.

  1437. Austin Chernencoff

    I already said how they do not. They do a double blind study where all the people got some form of vaccination. I fail to see how that proves anything. That's like me studying the safety of fast food, and then proceed to do a double blind study, where one group gets McDonalds, and the other group gets burger King. I mean cmon, how is that legitimate.

  1438. robertallen1

    Indeed they have.
    bio dot org/articles/vaccines-save-and-extend-lives
    who dot int/inf-pr-1998/en/pr98-03
    unicef dot org/publications/files/Vaccines_Care_eng
    the dangerous ignorance of Austin Chernencoff notwithstanding.

  1439. robertallen1

    alphavax dot com/docs/presentations/2a4f34c0-2038-40ae-9fad-6f3995a654df dot pdf
    I have no trouble finding the article. Why do you?

  1440. Austin Chernencoff

    I said that in jest. While proper hydration is still clearly good for the immune system, I wasn't completely serious with that whole statement, and frankly I regret making it. I had no idea it would get this reaction.

    Ok as for link 1 I will quote this bit here "The most commonly reported adverse events were nasal congestion (33%),
    cough (33%), sore throat (27%), headache (20%), abdominal pain (17%),
    arthralgia (13%), nausea (13%) and diarrhea (13%). None of these rates differed significantly from placebo."
    Also this "Expanded trials for safety and efficacy are in progress."

    As for link 2 it is not a double blind study.

    So none of those links are conclusive. Thanks, but I will stick with infecting everyone. I mean everyone knows how sick we all are in Canada without compulsory vaccination, and herd immunity. You guys must all be right though.

  1441. thinkagainagain

    I don't get upset by many things but this vaccine stupidity is really beyond the pale. I mean it is really the stupidest most complete moronic thing I've ever heard. The irony is that most of these idiots are alive today because of vaccines.

  1442. robertallen1

    Great sources, except that Mr. Chermencoff does not believe in the concept of herd immunity which displays the very acme of his ignorance and your concluding sentence sets forth exactly what makes it so pernicious. I would merely like to stress one of the implications in your past: that the immune systems differ.

  1443. Austin Chernencoff

    I love how first off that link leads me to a vaccine producer. Can you say bias? Also I love how you think I am dangerous.

  1444. robertallen1

    No need to. Simply compare the number of outbreaks of the malady prior to the administration vaccine to the number after its administration.

  1445. Austin Chernencoff

    "Subjects in

    group 1 received the lower dose (LD) of vaccine (1×107 infectious units [IU]). After review of safety data from group 1 by an independent safety monitor, subjects in group 2 received the higher dose (HD) of vaccine (1×108IU)"

    You can clearly see here that both groups (again) got some form of vaccine.

  1446. Austin Chernencoff

    Thanks for the source though.

  1447. thinkagainagain

    Bet you've been vaccinated and I bet you're alive today because of the vaccinations.

  1448. Austin Chernencoff

    Great sources except the first one is still ongoing, and hasn't proven anything conclusive, and the second isn't a double blind study.

  1449. Austin Chernencoff

    This is where the video comes into play. This is a great example of Post hoc ergo propter hoc. How do you know it would not have declined anyway? Without a double blind study this data means nothing. I am yet to see a double blind study that doesn't administer both groups the vaccine.

  1450. robertallen1

    No, these links are quite conclusive in that they demonstrate the efficacy of vaccination.
    Once again, I'm glad you don't live anywhere near me, for your refusal to have you and your family vaccinated could bring about sickness and death which might have been avoided but for your wilful ignorance and your belief that you know more about vaccines than those who've made them their life's work.

  1451. Austin Chernencoff

    Think again, thinkagainagain. I have never been vaccinated in my life. Neither were my siblings, and guess what? Still alive, and I have not had a sick day in years.

  1452. robertallen1

    That is indeed the ironic thing and what's worse is that Mr. Chernencoff lives in Canada--hopefully far from Over the Edge and all those other knowledgable posters.

  1453. Austin Chernencoff

    Well the first link you gave me earlier self stated that " None of these rates differed significantly from placebo." So inconclusive, and the second link was not a double blind? Where did it say that. I didn't see mention of that anywhere in the link, I know because I used CTRL F. So no sadly you did not give me exactly that. Also re-linking the study that was not double blind will not make it any more valid. Also what fines? Even if there are that's a far cry from compulsory vaccination.

    Also what happened to burden of proof? I am not making the positive claim here. You are all claiming they are safe, and effective, but I am sceptical of their safety and efficacy. I have no burden of proof, besides I have posted links. Check out Blaylocks site on the top check out some of the swine flu data, it may not be double blind, but hey you are not giving me that either.

  1454. Austin Chernencoff

    "None of these rates differed significantly from placebo" There it is again, straight from the article. How can I be sure those slight differences were not caused by other factors? Inconclusive.

  1455. Austin Chernencoff

    We are multiplying, be afraid be very afraid. Coming to a neighbourhood near you. My family has spread out across Canada, there is no escape.

  1456. thinkagainagain

    That may very well be because everyone else was vaccinated.

    I'm not one to call another a liar but I would bet my life savings that you have been vaccinated. Can't prove it but I think you're full of sh*t and I'll end this conversation right now.

  1457. robertallen1

    So what? Has the report been refuted--and by that I mean by those qualified to comment on it?
    And you are dangerous, for as Over the Edge stated, "not getting vaccinated as a healthy adult does not mean you will get sick but you are putting those you come in contact with at risk. there are many that cannot get vaccinated and their health relies on the rest of us
    getting vaccinated to provide them with reasonable protection" and as thinkagainagain indicated, "The
    irony is that most of these idiots [that's you] are alive today because of vaccines. Not only are you dangerous, but despicable as well.

  1458. Austin Chernencoff

    Well be glad you are not betting then. My mom has always been against them, and I never received a vaccination. Also I think a majority of people do not get vaccinated, besides many vaccines haven't been shown to be truly long term. People that were vaccinated as children may need another one, and most adults do not bother, as it is not compulsory. I would argue that a majority are not, but just to be specific, what vaccine are you talking about?

  1459. robertallen1

    So you're claiming that a disease which has been prevalent in an area for a long time, such as yellow fever, is suddenly going to decline? Not likely as long as there are enough hosts. Post hoc ergo propter hoc applies only when there is no correlation.

  1460. Austin Chernencoff

    You are welcome to your opinion, but you can't prove I am alive today because of vaccination. You don't know my heritage or whether these diseases were an issue for my ancestors. Consider me dangerous if you like (plus I work in retail oooo) , but I don't think I am the carrier you make me out to be. Maybe I'll go and get tested though. Hey it could be fun, and I could share my results with all of you.

  1461. robertallen1

    Thank you.

  1462. Austin Chernencoff

    Well I stand by the fact that it is not definitive. correlation not causation, or Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Seems very apt to me. Just because there was correlation, does not prove causation.

  1463. robertallen1

    I think Cernencoff is telling the truth in this respect. His ignorance won't allow him to be vaccinated.

  1464. robertallen1

    What you think is garbage. It's what you can prove and the only thing you've proved so far is your wilful ignorance and your lack of concern for those around you.

  1465. Austin Chernencoff

    It's not my ignorance, but rather my knowledge that prevents me. I know vaccines contain thimerosal, a controversial additive. I don't care if the FDA approved it. I feel that mercury, which is in thimerosal, is in no ways good for my body. So I chose not to allow that into my body. Now if there were no preservatives in them, such as thimerosal, and formaldehyde, I might be more inclined to take one. So I chose not to vaccinate because of what I know. That knowledge, right or wrong is what stops me. Until someone can prove mercury is good for my circulatory system or something, I will not vaccinate. No thank you.

  1466. Austin Chernencoff

    I am sceptical of vaccines, and you have the burden of proof, not me. I will not take one until you have satisfied this. Also I think you are smart, and have stated this before. Was that thought garbage?

  1467. robertallen1

    Again, what you think is only so much garbage. It's what you can prove.
    Whether these diseases were an issue with your ancestors is only part of the picture, as your ancestors were not confronted with many of the viruses, mutated or otherwise, etc. with which we are faced today.
    If you were working around me and I found out that you refused to be vaccinated, I would report the matter to the administration and if no action were taken, I would then contact the proper authorities.
    Tested for what?

  1468. robertallen1

    If that were true, when was the last time you heard of an outbreak of polio? And speaking of Polio, did you read "The Salk Vaccine Trials."

  1469. Austin Chernencoff

    Well it's nice to know that you guys have proven nothing. Still awaiting that double blind study on the long term efficacy and safety of vaccines. O wait you linked some, yet they didn't actually ever compare a placebo to a vaccine, so ya. Also you have said you would report me before, I get it, and I don't care. Also again, I said earlier I thought you were smart, but that was clearly garbage.

  1470. Austin Chernencoff

    Again Post hoc ergo propter hoc. The polio vaccine was administered after the peak of the bell curve. I have actually linked a source about this already. Believe what you want.

  1471. robertallen1

    What you feel is worth as much as you think.

    Did you read the FDA article on thimerosal--oh, but I forgot, you know far more about the substance than the corrupt FDA. Well, did you read the Wikipedia article on it? I thought not. You just "know" that all vaccines contain thimerosal.

    "Until someone can prove mercury is good for my circulatory system or something, I will not vaccinate. No thank you." And you'll just go on potentially infecting others. I use to think I was selfish.

  1472. robertallen1

    A clear indication that you believe you know more than the doctors and will not stop at endangering others to prove that you do.

  1473. robertallen1

    It's obvious that you don't, which is why I wouldn't want you around me, especially in the workplace.

  1474. Austin Chernencoff

    Wait so let me get this straight " Subjects were then observed for 8 weeks. The most commonly reported
    adverse events were nasal congestion (33%), cough (33%), sore throat
    (27%), headache (20%), abdominal pain (17%), arthralgia (13%), nausea
    (13%) and diarrhea (13%)."

    So 33% of people had nasal congestion also coughs. 27% a sore throat and 20% headaches etc. and you consider that safe? I don't know about you but I have none of those symptoms, and I don't consider 33% of people clearly getting sick, safe. Also the people that did get vaccinated only seroconverted 63-73% based on the serotype, and that was after a 28 day period, which is hardly proving anything long term. Which you may have chosen to ignore, but was an important part of my question, that it be both a double blind and long term.

    As far as that link goes, thank you. I found it most enlightening. It doesn't seem to mention bc though, but I don't remember being excluded from classes, when I was young, but that would be some years back now. And as far as your request for long term study showing the non-efficacy and lack of safety in vaccines, I don't have one, and doubt it exists. Similar how you have not posted and double blind studies showing the long term effects either, which I also doubt exist. I am willing to agree to disagree though. I see there is no love here for my opinions, So I will say thank you for the debate and now I am sating goodbye. Still love this site, despite our differing views. Keep up the good work. :)

  1475. Austin Chernencoff

    I do think you are smart, and have actually learned some words from you. I like your vocabulary a lot. I wasn't being sarcastic when I said you were smart in the past.

  1476. over the edge

    you state "So 33% of people had nasal congestion also coughs. 27% a sore throat and 20% headaches etc. and you consider that safe?" when the group receiving the placebo gave similar stats yes.

  1477. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes, and that makes me question what was in that placebo, they are not always sugar pills. Out of any group of 28 people who have taken nothing, do you think that 33% would get sick over a 2 month period? Anyway I am not convinced of their long term safety and efficacy. I have not gotten sick in years, and don't think that 33% of people in their study getting sick over a 2 month period is a good sign.

    Also as for everyone saying I am dangerous, why the worries? Are you not vaccinated? I should only be a danger to other non vaccinated people right?

    Your points are valid enough, but I am not convinced at the long term efficacy of these products. Which has not been proven here. I appreciate your debate style though, it's not overbearing and insulting. Again I wish the best for you, and I hope you all would do the same for me, vaccinated or not.

  1478. Austin Chernencoff

    Ok I'll bite.

    Link 1 Was already posted actually, so read the other thread to see my opinion on it. Either way though it is not long term.

    link 2 "

    women completed 1-month follow-up. 456 women completed the 12-month
    assessment. There were no differences at the time of immunisation between rubella vaccine and placebo groups in distribution of age, ethnic origin, parity, time between delivery and immunisation, breastfeeding history, or histories of earlier rubella vaccination or
    joint complaints. Results indicated a significantly higher incidence (p=0·006; odds ratio= 1·73 [95% Cl=1·17—2·57]) of acute joint manifestations in rubella-vaccine recipients (30%) than in placebo
    recipients (20%). Frequency of chronic (recurrent) arthralgia or arthritis was only marginally significant (p=0·042; 1·58 [1·01—2·45])."

    This hardly seems like it's proving the safety of the vaccine.

    link 3 "This study has been withdrawn prior to enrollment."(Replaced with an alternate study)

    I will also mention that this study is probably bias too anyway. Sponsored by Shantha Biotechnics Limited

    link 4 "No Study Results Posted on ClinicalTrials.gov for this Study" Umm so what was I supposed to find here exactly?

    link 5 And again "No Study Results Posted on ClinicalTrials.gov for this Study"

    I am curious why the findings have not been released for those studies to be honest. I am still waiting on that double blind study showing the long term efficacy and safety of vaccines. I am less than convinced by these links.

  1479. over the edge

    33% didn't get sick they experienced a sore throat. i have been involved in these studies (not these particular ones) and the test subjects are asked to provide all symptoms/irritants no matter how minor or short lived. so in the fall 2004 (when these studies were done) in the north eastern US (Maryland) one third of people got a sore throat at least once over a two month period. not that shocking. as for being dangerous i do not think i said or even implied that. i did state "you are putting those you come in contact with at risk. there are many
    that cannot get vaccinated and their health relies on the rest of us
    getting vaccinated to provide them with reasonable protection." and i stand behind that. as for " I should only be a danger to other non vaccinated people right" not necessarily true. every time someone gets infected (even id they do not know it or present symptoms) they are providing a host for the infection that the body tries to fight. in that scenario there is a chance of mutation and a reduced effectiveness of the vaccination of others. yes i do hope for the best for you as well.

  1480. Austin Chernencoff

    Fair enough, I mean that study seemed somewhat legitimate, I will try my best to consider your information. I am really put off by the preservatives within vaccines, and if possible would like to know what they used for a placebo(sugar saline etc). That was the most legitimate link yet though, I'll give you that. I don't know how long term it was, but I will consider it. Have a good day.

  1481. Austin Chernencoff

    Ok I read this, after signing up to the site, which didn't take very long really. Anyway, it would seem it is somewhat long term, the longest results obtained after 7 years, if I have read it correctly. Although I can't help but think not sleeping around would be a better prevention! Also it is not double blind. Obviously though this vaccine is not for me (XY). Some of the findings do seem somewhat significant though. It was done with a large population of women which lends it credibility. This is a newer vaccine according to the article though, and only time will tell if it reaches it's projections of 20 years. Again though I wonder what else comes with the vaccination, so safety is still a concern, however it would seem to be at least somewhat effective in the long term thus far.

    Also I agree this has probably run it's course. I thank you for reasonably debating the facts with me. I will consider what you have brought forth, and hope you will consider what I have brought forth as well. This time I say goodnight, though. I need some sleep. :)

  1482. robertallen1

    What you are convinced of is again only so much garbage. It's what those who know a lot more about the subject than you do are convinced of.

    "Also as for everyone saying I am dangerous, why the worries? Are you not vaccinated? I should only be a danger to other non vaccinated people right?" Even if this were true, your words evince a sterling display of your lack of concern or consideration for those whose systems do not allow for vaccination. In the words of Over the Edge, "not getting vaccinated as a healthy adult does not mean you will get sick but YOU ARE PUTTING THOSE YOU COME IN CONTACT WITH AT RISK THERE ARE MANY THAT CANNOT GET VACCINATED AND THEIR HEALTH RELIES ON THE REST OF US GETTING VACCINATED TO PROVIDE THEM WITH A REASONABLE PROTECTION." (emphasis added)
    Not only are you dangerous in this regard, but also because others of your level of wilful ignorance might be influenced to follow in your footsteps and refuse to be vaccinated, thus compounding the problem--and this yet another reason you merit only contempt.

  1483. robertallen1

    Evolution in action.

  1484. over the edge

    agreed. funny on how almost all my discussions end up on that subject

  1485. Austin Chernencoff

    Is this necessary? I'm tired Robert, literally and figuratively. Stop yelling at me.

  1486. oQ

    How stupid is that? Once a doctor has paid his dues with yearssss of schooling, he should be allowed to operate in the best of his ability. If a doctor is willing to assist people WHO DO NOT WANT to vaccinate their kids and there are many, it is his right to do so. This reminds me of an abortion argument, where people lose the right to choose for themself.

  1487. robertallen1

    If the doctor thinkagainagain is referring to is Andrew Wakefield, you'd better read up on him before commenting further.

  1488. robertallen1

    If the doctor thinkagainagain is referring to is Andrew Wakefield, you'd better read up on him before commenting further

  1489. robertallen1

    Exactly. And you can't force vaccines on someone who might be allergic to them. If a woman wants an abortion and the doctor she goes to either cannot perform it or doesn't want to perform it, he has an obligation to send her to one who will. As usual, OQ doesn't know what she's talking about.

  1490. robertallen1

    It is definitely necessary.

  1491. Nathan Cory

    With sincere respect Robert, I feel that both Austin and I have provided examples which could not possibly be put any clearer, practical and down-to-earth.

    While I have no intention of attempting to drive home the same point any further - as I feel we are all just banging our heads against a brick wall if we continue in this fashion - I have one more example to put forth in an attempt to explain our point, assuming you are serious about trying to understand and not just arguing.

    It occurred to me today, while I was driving a forklift...
    Here goes...

    Say there is person A and person B.
    Both are completely equal in their knowledge and skills and experience in driving a forklift BUT,
    person A has a forklift license and person B does not.
    So one is acknowledged as a qualified forklift driver. The other is not. That is, one has "credentials" and the other has no credentials.
    Or, if you like, one has a "certificate" and the other does not.....

    Their "knowledge" is identical. It's just that one is recognized as a qualified forklift driver while the other is not "recognized", even though his knowledge is the same.

    It cannot get any simpler than that.
    Now please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that I personally wouldn't be more inclined to listen to the one with more "credentials", because I probably would. But nevertheless....

    The FACT is, their "knowledge" is the same.

  1492. thinkagainagain

    It is my understanding that his license was taken because he was falsifying his research data. Not too stupid after all.

  1493. Nathan Cory

    I also have a proposition to make to both of you, although the idea would also include me (and anyone else interested for that matter).

    There is an underlying point to be seen in this too by the way..... Anyway, here it is:

    Assuming each of us is serious in our drive and need for fact - for truth.

    What about if all three of us were to drop everything we know and think we know about the subject and begin from scratch?

    But rather than argue, we work TOGETHER, as friends, in mutual respect, for the better interest of understanding?

    Surely three people can cover more ground than one, yes?

    If our motivations and thirst for "truth" are sincere and serious, imagine how much we could achieve by working TOGETHER!!!

    Imagine if all that time spent over the last few days, quarreling over words and opinions, was put toward enquiring deeper into the subject at hand and sharing with each other our experience and findings!!!

    One thing is certain. Each of us would have a far better scope on the subject.

    So..... What say you?

  1494. Nathan Cory

    I have a proposition to make to both of you, although the idea would also include me (and anyone else interested for that matter).

    There is an underlying point to be seen in this too by the way..... Anyway, here it is:

    Assuming each of us is serious in our drive and need for fact - for truth.

    What about if all three of us were to drop everything we know and think we know about the subject and begin from scratch?

    But rather than argue, we work TOGETHER, as friends, in mutual respect, for the better interest of understanding?

    Surely three people can cover more ground than one, yes?

    If our motivations and thirst for "truth" are sincere and serious, imagine how much we could achieve by working TOGETHER!!!

    Imagine if all that time spent over the last few days, quarreling over words and opinions, was put toward enquiring deeper into the subject at hand and sharing with each other our experience and findings!!!

    One thing is certain. Each of us would have a far better scope on the subject.

    So..... What say you?

  1495. robertallen1

    How can you compare the complexities of science (medicine) to the driving of a forklift?

  1496. robertallen1

    You have to be referring to Andrew Wakefield, but the American now in prison for fraud I can't figure out.

  1497. robertallen1

    Someone who thinks he knows more than the doctors and refuses to be vaccinated, thus presenting a danger to those around him, can be treated only with contempt and derision and is certainly no friend of mine. So the answer is no. .

  1498. Nathan Cory

    I'm - making - a - point....................................
    .................................................................. :(

  1499. Nathan Cory

    OK. All the best Robert.

  1500. Austin Chernencoff

    Good example. I have seen this happen quite a bit in the real world actually.

  1501. Austin Chernencoff

    Well in the words of Han Solo "I can imagine quite a bit". You are an inspiring person Nathan, and I would definitely be down with something like that, but as far as this comment thread goes, I do believe it has run its course, and I'm tired of being called incompetent, dangerous, and full of garbage thoughts. I would however very much like to collaborate with you in the future, if there were a way to contact you elsewhere. I respect your mode of thought, and think that achievements could be made.

  1502. Nathan Cory

    I agree. It's as simple as I could make it. If one can't see the point I'm making with this example then I'm at a loss :(

  1503. robertallen1

    Fictively, it's like comparing the knowledge of a licensed ditchdigger to that of an unlicensed ditchdigger.

  1504. robertallen1

    Provide me with one in a field as complex as medicine.

  1505. Nathan Cory

    :) Certainly interested. I'm not sure how this site works but the pic and name is my facebook id. Would be more than interested in that future.

  1506. Austin Chernencoff

    Hahhaha, you would deny the greater point and argue semantics. Also this is probably the greatest example of the straw man argument right here. You are asserting that he was comparing the complexities of medicine to driving a forklift, which he wasn't. You make a false assertion, then you attack that. Very clear cut straw man.

  1507. Nathan Cory

    Sorry Robert I'm done. If you can't see that I'm NOT comparing - I'm making a point - then it would be rather futile to go on, would it not?

  1508. Austin Chernencoff

    "can be treated only with contempt and derision" Nice, and I would expect no less from you. Can only be treated, is an absolute. Is there no other ways to treat someone like that? I can think of a few myself. If you had used the word should, I might agree with your opinion on that, but you are flat out wrong again here. You can treat many people many different ways.

  1509. Nathan Cory

    In fact I shouldn't have ended with a question there. You obviously do not get the point I'm making, as I've been trying to make it for days now and it really couldn't be put any simpler.

  1510. robertallen1

    Wrong as usual. There's no strawman. You can't compare the certification of an m.d. with the certification of a forklift driver; hence, the analogy is inapt.

  1511. Nathan Cory

    "You are asserting that he was comparing the complexities of medicine to driving a forklift, which he wasn't."


  1512. Nathan Cory

    I'm - not - comparing......................................

  1513. robertallen1

    I meant what I wrote. I have no respect for you or for what you stand for.

  1514. Austin Chernencoff

    Again he does see the point, he is simply playing devils advocate. I personally find his debate strategies rather tactless and offensive. He argues for the sake of arguing, not to achieve anything.

  1515. Austin Chernencoff

    How can you compare the complexities of (operation)driving a forklift to using a shovel?

  1516. Austin Chernencoff

    I provide you nothing Allen. Stop talking to me, unless that is you like being ignores. No, allen, simply no.

  1517. Austin Chernencoff

    Me too, that should work, I'll try adding you.
    edit- sent request.

  1518. robertallen1

    They are both low-level occupations not requiring all that much background and training.

  1519. Austin Chernencoff

    He wasn't, hence the straw man assertion. It was a point about knowledge, it has been only you asserting the medical thing. He switched the example.

  1520. robertallen1

    You keep forgetting this is a public site and the two of us are not the only ones on it. So I will keep responding to you whether or not you respond back to me.

  1521. Nathan Cory

    I began with an example with medicine. All I can suggest is that you "ponder" the points I made. But I'm not doing this anymore with you. I've had infinite patience as far as I'm concerned. Sincerely, I wish you all the best. But I'm done.

  1522. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes I know you did, but it just proves how wrong you are. You are making an absolute statement, as if everyone has no choice but to treat people like this, that way. You are wrong, and confused. If you treat most people like you have treated us here, I see a very lonely future for you.

  1523. robertallen1

    Unlike Over the Edge, you have presented nothing which commands any respect.

  1524. Epicurus

    lol you clearly wont be convinced by anything. your assessment of the second paper shows that you have no clue what you are reading if you can post all that then say "this hardle seems like its proving the safety of the vaccine" you CLEARLY have no clue what you are talking about.

    the studies are long term enough. you have not given the length you wish the studies to be. no matter the length you will claim they are not long enough or not a big enough sample.

    WHEN ALL THESE STUDIES ARE TAKEN TOGETHER only an idiot would deny the benefits that we see. and i say that with the most sincerity....ONLY AN IDIOT.

  1525. oQ

    You see that equality of knowledge regarding birth with experienced midwifes and doctors.

  1526. robertallen1

    In California as well as in many states, certification and licensure are required for midwives--and for good reason.
    Once again, you still owe me an apololgy and retraction for your blatantly false statement about my acceptance of sources. Shall I repeat your words back to you again?

  1527. oQ

    You need a license to own a dog, to cut hair, to go fishing, to build, to strip, to sell travel package, ect...

    Funny how one doesn't need a licence to be a politician in order to acquire the right to tell others to get a licence.

    Concerning appologies, you are way behind me in coming clean with people...hundreds have told you how rude you are in the last few months. You do have many people to pick from just start going down in your disqus.

  1528. robertallen1

    So what? Your comment is entirely irrelevant.
    Don't try that smokescreen. You posted a bald-faced lie about me and I'm going to keep reminding you of it unless I received an apology and a retraction.

  1529. Austin Chernencoff

    No one owes you anything.

  1530. oQ

    You go ahead and use people's time reading you whining. I couldn't care less. It will be left to the moderators to work more erasing what i consider a farce.

  1531. Emergency Stop

    People like Austin can convince others not to get vaccinated or vaccinate their children, I have a problem with that. One example is whooping cough (pertussis), it's back in the news here Down Under, one of the things I heard, Australia has one of the lowest rates of pertussis vaccinations in the developed world. So if thats the case there should statistics to support what I heard and I'm very disappointed with what I found. From W.H.O website for 2011 (data as of 02 oct 2012)- USA 18610, Australia 38040 reported cases and we're about 15 times smaller in population. It's not compulsory here but there is a financial incentive in place by the government if you have your child fully vaccinated however the money is still available with a medical exemption, which is fine but there is also a philosophical exemption, not so fine. Depending on how that philosophical exemption is validated, perhaps Austin might still receive government money (if he lived here) for not doing the right thing by others in the community .

  1532. thinkagainagain

    Not the Professor but Dr. Wakefield. Essentially the Prof was reinstated because he did not take part in the research as he had been accused,

  1533. oQ

    I disagree and i too, am lol.

    I think if a doctor disagrees with the enforcement of immunization, i believe it is his right to accept patients who are against immunization, he should make available all the information available about such vaccine even if the people show no interest. He is entitled to establish the needs of his patients...that is what his licences provides him with.

    If all medical professionals had kept agreeing with medical radiography without questionning it...things would not have changed. I realize it's an entirely different subject but in all fields, accredited professionals should be pushing boundaries in one way or an other if they see the necessity. It is for the world to prove them wrong...so far none have done that with immunization at 100%.
    I will add a side note, that the same should be granted for scientific research into the realms of conciousness.

    Abortion has all sorts of impact on society. It is left to one (or two) to decide, not decided by a law.

    As for immunization, i have chosen not to do it for my kids, and the same for my daughter for her kid. Anyone who wants to immunize, is free to do so, even my daughter who made the choice with her partner.

  1534. over the edge


    i agree with almost everything you posted. but (there has to be a but). if a doctor disagrees with accepted practice it is his/her obligation to back up assertions with as much (in many cases more) evidence for his/her assertion and gain acceptance before offering such treatments to the general public. that is how it is done in science and that has been shown to be the best way to provide the best/safest care. i applaud any scientist that goes against the grain but only if he/she can back it up. while i agree that "Abortion has all sorts of impact on society." that is not what i said. i stated "abortion does not have negative health effects on the general society" two totally different assertions. i equate those who wish to endanger others by not getting vaccinated to those i*iots who come to work while sick and act like they deserve praise for how strong they are. in both cases you are putting everybody else at risk.

  1535. oQ

    well...." i applaud any scientist that goes against the grain but only if he/she can back it up."...to be able to back it up, he has to be able to take a stand first....especially if he is going against the grain.
    Idiotss go to work sick because idiotic bosses expect you to until you're nearing death or having the appearance of it. lol

  1536. Achems_Razor

    I agree with most you say, but I also agree with oQ, in most cases in Canada, if you seem to be on your death bed/sick, you must get a note from your doctor stating you are sick to give to employers, you not only lose wages but it costs up to 20$ for the doctor to write the note. Go figure.

  1537. over the edge


    i understand and many have made that case to me in the workplace. but (there is that but again) the well being of your fellow workers should outweigh that in most cases. if a fellow employee makes me sick not i have to go through the expense. i do understand in today's economy many cannot afford it and i sympathize. it has been just over a year since my injury and the expense of never ending appointments and surgeries (apparently only one left). the amount of unpaid work i have missed has been a strain on my savings and i do not need to miss the rare opportunity to work because a fellow employee gave me his/her illness.on the bright side i do have a lot of time for TDF lol

  1538. over the edge

    i do understand that point. especially in this economy. a scientist has to provide proof BEFORE exposing their new methods on the public. not use the public as test subjects to prove their hypothesis/ideas.

  1539. robertallen1

    And so do you for your blatant lie about my having manufactured sources.

  1540. robertallen1

    What you consider is of no consequence. To your wilful ignorance which has been masked numerous times, you have added blatant lying.

  1541. robertallen1

    And you should have a problem with people like Austin and his wilfully ignorant and dangerous ilk.
    Thanks for the information on Down Under and I agree with you, those like Austin (who, by the way is Canadian) should not receive government money for doing the wrong thing by others in the community.

  1542. robertallen1

    When it comes to medicine, only the opinions of mainstream medicine count--and this excludes Natural News.
    From Wikipedia:

    "On 28 January 2010, a five-member statutory tribunal of the GMC found three dozen charges proved, including four counts of dishonesty and 12 counts involving the abuse of developmentally challenged children. The panel ruled that Wakefield had "failed in his duties as a responsible consultant", acted both against the interests of his patients, and "dishonestly and irresponsibly" in his published research. The Lancet immediately and fully retracted his 1998 publication on the basis of the GMC’s findings, noting that elements of the manuscript had been falsified. Wakefield was struck off the Medical Register in May 2010, with a statement identifying dishonest falsification in The Lancet research and is barred from practising medicine in the UK.

    "In January 2011, an editorial accompanying an article by Brian Deer in BMJ identified Wakefield's work as an "elaborate fraud".In a follow-up article,[18] Deer said that Wakefield had planned to launch a venture on the back of an MMR vaccination scare that would profit from new medical tests and "litigation driven testing". In November 2011, yet another report in BMJ revealed original raw data indicating that, contrary to Wakefield's claims in The Lancet, children in his research did not have inflammatory bowel disease.

    Wakefield's study and public recommendations against the use of the combined MMR vaccine were linked to a steep decline in vaccination rates in the United Kingdom and a corresponding rise in measles cases, resulting in serious illness and fatalities." (emphasis added)

    There are clearly no two ways about it. The hard evidence speaks for itself. This man must never be allowed to practice medicine again.

    It clearly doesn't say much for you that you stand up for this trash.

  1543. robertallen1

    Who are you to say what accredited professionals should or should not be doing?

    And I guess you feel that you and your children are free to infect others.
    Over the Edge is right and you're as usual totally off base.

  1544. robertallen1

    As usual, I agree with what you write. And indeed you stated what you claim you stated, not what OQ claimed that you stated. As you know, I have had the same problem with her myself. However, this and her wilful ignorance pale in comparison with her lack of concern for those whom she puts at risk by not having her progency vaccinated and by discouraging vaccination of her grandchild. In this respect, she and Austin are one of a kind.

  1545. robertallen1

    I can't speak for Canada, but in the few firms I've worked at here in the states (and I don't claim this as a random sampling), as a matter of general policy, if you are out for one or two days, you don't need a doctor's note, but if you are out for longer, you do--and this is certainly fair.

  1546. robertallen1

    Once again, I agree with what you post--however, I didn't know this about you. Care to share?

  1547. robertallen1

    Not that I'm disagreeing, but suppose the doctor informs the patient that he is trying something new and the patient consents?

  1548. over the edge

    without going into too much detail. i suffered a 22 foot fall that resulted in multiple breaks in both legs.

  1549. Austin Chernencoff

    Why don't you go back, and read what I said again. It was not an accusation, it was a question. Again no one owes you anything.

  1550. robertallen1

    One good turn deserves another.

    ama-assn dot org/ama/pub/physician-resources/legal-topics/patient-physician-relationship-topics/informed-consent dot page

  1551. Austin Chernencoff

    Prove that I'm dangerous. I am still waiting on that long term double blind study. You guys have not proven that after a few years you are any less dangerous than me, when your precious vaccinations immunity runs out after a short period. Remember double blind, and long term.

  1552. robertallen1

    The usual condolences. Can you walk at all?

  1553. robertallen1

    As there was no reason to bring it up, it was clearly an accusation. And you still owe me an apology and a retraction.

  1554. Austin Chernencoff

    There was a reason, your link didn't work, I didn't make that up. So again I owe you no apology, and even if I did, I would not give you one. First off you have been nothing but insulting towards me. I could equally demand an apology from you, but I won't. You know why? Because it's ridiculous, what difference would it make anyway. Get over yourself Allen.

  1555. robertallen1

    The studies Over the Edge and several others have cited and more have been accepted by mainstream medicine, i.e., those who know far more about the subject than you do and that's all that matters. In other words, you don't call the shots and your criteria are as much garbage as your beliefs and claims.

    Once again, I suggest that you read the results of the Andrew Wakefield's fraud in the Wikipedia article on him and then turn to the Wikipedia article on the small pox vaccine. Not that you will, because you'd rather remain ignorant and a danger to others.

  1556. robertallen1

    It's one thing to say a link doesn't work' it's another to lie about something being a manufactured source as you have done. As I have not lied about you, I owe you no apology. You not only deserve every barb hurled at you, but condemnation and contemnation and abhorrence for exposing others (yes, that's what you're doing) to the potential of contamination.

  1557. over the edge

    yes my left is basically fine my right needs some fine tuning (mid may last operation). but i get along just fine as long as i do not push it.

  1558. over the edge

    thsnk you

  1559. robertallen1

    Well, the best to you. Learned something today at the doctor's. Did you know that there is research being done into reversing the effects of kidney disease (or degeneration) through stem cells? Makes sense, doesn't it. It would change the practice of nephrology forever. In addition, yesterday I spoke to a specialist in molecular chemistry working for Alphavax, a vaccine developer (you might want to examine the company's website), who informed me of research being conducted into curing various forms of cancer through a new type of vaccine (for want of a better term) which instructs the immunosystem on how to destroy the intruder? This, of course, involves sequencing the various genomes and then coming up with a counteracter. This might also be a good, safe way to cut down on the costs of clinical testing. I just thought I would tell you all this to get you through your convalesence. One way or the other, your thoughts, please.

  1560. Austin Chernencoff

    So you admit there is no such study then? Thought so. Now you are the liar though, because you claimed there was a long term double blind study, showing their safety and efficacy. Now you are claiming the ones given which were not, are good enough. A far cry from the numerous studies of that type, you claimed existed.

  1561. Austin Chernencoff

    I never asked for an apology, in fact I said to do so would be ridiculous, and let me add childish as well. Grow up robert allen joe bob billy frank.

  1562. robertallen1

    I have admitted no such thing. The studies presented showed their safety and efficacy as far as the mainstream medical industry is concerned--and that's all that matters.
    Once again, by even bringing up the issue of manufactured sources ("Are you simply making this up? which you posted on 3/20 at 2:15:38) which has proved to be false, you have libeled me and I demand a retraction and an apology--and I'm not about to let this matter rest

  1563. robertallen1

    As you made a patently false statement, I am demanding an apology and retraction from you, whether you like it or not and I'm going to keep demanding it. Now, stop putting others in danger and get vaccinated.

  1564. Austin Chernencoff

    It wasn't a statement, and your demanding a retraction and an apology, to me means nothing. Also those other studies may be accepted by mainstream, and that's fine, but none are what I asked for. You did claim they existed though. So retract your statement that they exist, and I will retract mine, how about that? A nice compromise.

  1565. Austin Chernencoff


  1566. robertallen1

    By bringing it up, it was a statement and libellous one and I'm going to keep demanding an apology and a retraction. It's you who's claiming that they do not fit the bill and by now you should have a pretty good idea of what I and a number of others think of your claims.
    P.S. I don't compromise.

  1567. Emergency Stop

    Please reconsidered your stance on this, other peoples health/lives are at stake. "it's not illegal not to be vaccinated" perhaps is should be. Is your confirmation bias overriding your ability to think critically, have you watched parts 1 and 2 of Pitfalls of Thinking:Confirmation Bias in this video?

  1568. robertallen1

    My first instinct is to wish that some other wilfully unvaccinated person would infect him, but on second thought, he could then end up infecting others and that would defeat the whole purpose. I used to consider myself self-centered and inconsiderate, but I'm an amateur compared to Cernencoff.

  1569. Austin Chernencoff

    I'm not saying they do not "fit the bill" I am simply asking for what you claimed existed. I will apologize in full when you provide me with one such study.

  1570. Austin Chernencoff

    If Canada made it illegal, I would move away. I have not fallen for confirmation bias, and may I remind you that I am the sceptic here. I haven't seen adequate evidence to show that vaccines will even be effective for most these things in a few years. Unless it is a long term double blind study, I am less than convinced. Unless I am provided with a long term double blind study, I will continue to believe the evidence of them working is just a great example of Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

  1571. Austin Chernencoff

    Even though that link seems less than reputable, I would point out that it says measles cases are rising, which is hardly proving that vaccines are doing their job.

    "With measles cases rising, one unintended consequence is that some kids get caught up in the measles quarantines or worries about measles
    outbreaks because they have a fever and a rash and have a possible or suspected case of measles."

    I may be the lowest of low, but are still dodging my point. There is no long term double blind study on the efficacy and safety of vaccines. The fact that you continuously try to distract from this, is just bad debate tactics. There isn't one, and you will never find one, because it doesn't exist.

  1572. Austin Chernencoff

    You used to consider yourself self centred and inconsiderate? Well I am not convinced you're not still these things. You still want that apology? The apology, being all about you. You still seem self important to me. Also your first instinct that I get sick, is far from considerate. I like how in your second thought you say that you hope I don't get sick so I don't effect others. So does this mean you want me to get sick still, but not others? This I believe is the opposite of considerate. Again I will say, please grow up Allen.

  1573. robertallen1

    As far as I'm concerned, but more important, as far as mainstream medicine is concerned, the tests cited not only by me, but by others, fit the bill. You're not calling the shots. But one way or the other, this has not to do with your false allegation that I manufactured sources. You owe me a retraction and an apology and as long as you keep posting on this thread, I'm going to keep reminding you of this.

  1574. robertallen1

    As you do not have the medical background to make anything approaching an informed determination, what you have or have not seen is once again so much garbage.
    Canada, or for that matter any other country doesn't need irresponsible, inconsiderate and insouciant scum like you.

  1575. Austin Chernencoff

    Well I will apologize when I receive that source you claimed existed.

  1576. robertallen1

    The reason measles cases are rising (although not to the level of 100 years ago--and just why is that?), at least in the U.S., is because people who have not been vaccinated are coming into this country and are carriers of this disease, the same with small pox.
    By admitting that the link appears less than reputable, yet using a quote from it in support of your dangerous ignorance and insouciance to those around you, you are indeed the lowest of the low.
    Don't say that these studies do not exist. A number of them have been presented to you and for the little that it matters, you alone have rejected them.

  1577. Austin Chernencoff

    Now I'm unconcerned scum? Can you keep your miasmic ad hominem arguments to yourself?

  1578. Austin Chernencoff

    Wait I thought I was already the lowest of low? Is it possible I have found new depths of lowliness? Also I just said it seems less than reputable, but because you provided it, I thought you would respect the data within regardless of that fact. I would have to research further to know those numbers for sure. I mean where was this study done? and what were the numbers?

    "Don't say that these studies do not exist. A number of them have been presented to you and for the little that it matters, you alone have rejected them."

    Actually I have proven all of those links to not be long term double blind studies on the safety and efficacy of vaccines. So who's lying now? I don't need an MD to know that the only double blind study that pitted a placebo against a vaccine was only over the course of 8 weeks. Hardly long term. So who's lying now Allen?

  1579. robertallen1

    Whose proudest boast is it that he does not get vaccinated? Who thinks he knows more than all of modern mainstream medicine put together?
    "I am not responsible for everyone's health, and it's not illegal not to be vaccinated. I also don't see measles and other diseases running rampant at the moment, so I am happy and feel justified with my decision." Talk about self-importance.

    It would serve you right if you got sick and those around you didn't.

    Once again, you owe me a retraction and an apology for the false accusaion of manufactured sources.

  1580. robertallen1

    "I am not responsible for everyone's health, and it's not illegal not to be vaccinated. I also don't see measles and other diseases running rampant at the moment, so I am happy and feel justified with my decision." Not in your case.

  1581. Austin Chernencoff

    Never claimed I wasn't self important allen. Doesn't change a thing about you though.

    "It would serve you right if you got sick and those around you didn't."

    Sounds real considerate Allen. You definitely proved your point here.

    "Once again, you owe me a retraction and an apology for the false accusaion of manufactured sources."

    Is it all about you then, still?

  1582. Austin Chernencoff

    So I don't feel justified? Or am I not happy with my decision? Which is it, or both? Because I am quite sure you can't tell me what to feel.

  1583. robertallen1

    As you don't care whether you infect those around you, you deserve no consideration and I repeat, it would serve you right and well if you got sick, very sick as a matter of fact, and those around you didn't.

    The only way it's about me is with respect to the retraction and apology which you owe me for your false accusation of manufactured sources.

  1584. Vlatko

    How do you want to be taken seriously while saying things like this:

    "...I don't remember the last time I got sick. It's because I used the scientific method to develop another way to fight the flu. Everyone, want to know my secret? Water, you would be amazed what proper hydration can do."

    That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. It is your business to ignore the world wide consensus on the benefits of vaccines and all the thousands of thousands of studies, experiments, and obvious evidence on this matter, but to publicly propagate such dangerous information that only water can combat diseases is complete ignorance or intentional propaganda.

  1585. Austin Chernencoff

    "The only way it's about me is with respect to the retraction and apology which you owe me for your false accusation of manufactured sources."

    So it's about you then? I claim none of this is "about me". I don't expect anything from you or anyone else here for that matter. I am putting forward my opinion, love it, or hate it. As far as me deserving infection for what I haven't done, I would have to say you are entitled to that opinion, but I would say it's not a very considerate one. Perhaps I am wrong, but you wishing ill will upon me, just shows how mean you are.

    No one deserves death for ignorance if that is indeed what I am. I don't think so though, but even if I was, I don't think it would justify me becoming "very sick". I would also point out that you called me scum, then you have the audacity to "demand" an apology. So again for the umteenth time no I will not apologize to you. Although if you admit that there is no long term double blind study on the safety and efficacy of vaccines I will. That offer remains on the table.

  1586. oQ

    Nothing you have bought forward clearifies the pros and cons of immunization. There are links after links that could be added to this forum thread for the benefit of both sides.
    What you mainly have brought forward is the proof that you are rude, and now you are wishing on someone to be sick....to think that the moderators accept this is beyond sense to me.
    In fact you talk about seeing doctors all the time...perhaps you are sick. Being so negative towards every one who dissagrees with you starts having an effect on a person as they grow old.
    If someone wrote this towards you....you'de be the first to complain to the moderators, in fact you have many times.
    For someone who ask appologies just about every day...i have never seen you offer one to an opponent of your ideas.

  1587. robertallen1

    What were the first six words of the quote?

    So put forth your opinion as ignorant as it is, but don't complain about its reception.

    "I am not responsible for everyone's health . . . ." Talk about mean. "I also don't see measles and other diseases running rampant at the moment, so I am happy and feel justified with my decision." Talk about scum.

    I do have the audacity to demand an apology and a retraction for a patently false accusation as the hard evidence reveals--and I'm going to keep reminding you.

  1588. oQ

    "Although if you admit that there is no long term double blind study on the safety and efficacy of vaccines I will".
    I don't see why you would. RA has stepped over polite boundaries many times. In fact if this exchange was in front of a crowd in person, many would have told him to quiet down.

    By the way, did you see the link i provided to Over The Edge about immunization & abortion?

  1589. robertallen1

    Mainstream medicine clarifies it in a sterling manner and that's good enough even for those dangerous ignoramuses like you who thinking that they know more than the doctors choose not to get vaccinated. But again, this is only consistent with your feelings about education in general.
    Where do I talk about seeing doctors all the time? So far I've mentioned one visit. You've now lied about this as you've lied about my acceptance of only my links. This says a lot about you and everything you represent.

  1590. robertallen1

    You don't know this. So once again, you're talking through yor that.
    And did you see Over the Edge's response to your link?

  1591. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes I did actually, and I am not sure if there is actual foetal tissue inside the vaccines, but I am not pro life, so it wouldn't bother me anyway. I didn't know that they were grown in that kind of tissue though, and found that surprising, and interesting, so I thank you for the link.

    Also the reason I keep that offer on the table is because I am true to my word, and don't believe that two wrongs make a right. Robertallen may not be considerate, or a nice person, but stooping to his level will not change anything. In fact it would be a loss of what I consider important to me, because of his actions. I don't let his attitude determine mine.

  1592. Austin Chernencoff

    Which doctors Allen? I have linked a doctor who does not agree, and I happen to agree with him. You make it sound like every doctor believes as you do.

  1593. Austin Chernencoff

    No maybe not beyond a reasonable doubt, but I imagine calling someone scum in front of a crowd, probably would not get the result you are looking for Allen. Ad hominem arguments are not effective for anyone who looks at the facts.

  1594. robertallen1

    By not being pro life, you must be pro choice. At least if a woman aborts, the unborn child (or fetus) won't be exposed to the dangers which you and others like you pose.

  1595. over the edge

    the link you provided gives a biased and dishonest view of vaccines and abortions. did you read my links in response? your link fails to inform the reader that these tissues are from a self replicating supply of cells from the 60's. yes they are the product of abortions but as my links inform abortions performed for the purpose of cell collection is not legal. same as organ donation. or would you classify that as killing people for their organs? here is a quote from my first link in response

    "Where do the vaccine companies get the cells for these vaccines? They get them from companies like Coriell Cell Repositories,
    403 Haddon Avenu, Camden, New Jersey 08103, 800-752-3805. This company has many cell
    lines, which are cultures of self-perpetuating cells. Each culture of cells is continually
    reproducing, making more cells. Those cells are sold to researchers, drug companies, and other
    medical technology firms. The specific cell lines used in vaccines are the MRC-5 and WI-38 cell
    lines1, and they have been
    supplying medical research of all types for more than 35 years. Where do these cell lines come
    from? That's where the grain of truth in this lie comes from. Both of these cell lines were
    cultured from cells taken from two abortions, one (MRC-5) that was performed in
    September,19662 and one (WI-38)
    that was performed in July, 19623."

    it is not as inflammatory when all the facts are known is it?

  1596. oQ

    I am *pro life* (lol) but i am also pro choice on abortion. I always wondered what they did with the remains of fetus.
    I agree with your level of self consideration.
    A level most people have learned to display when face to face with others. The internet has allowed people to be rude and disrespectfull as one is hiding behind a screen with either or a fake name and no photo to support identification.

  1597. Austin Chernencoff

    haha, this is sooo funny. I barely have words to describe this logic. So basically the child not being born is not in danger of being infected by me? Yes that's very true allen, they also have no chance of being saved by a vaccine. So what exactly is your point here? Because I fail to see the relevance. Or is this just another sad attempt at attacking me?

  1598. oQ

    Yes i have read his opinion....one point he doesn't bring forward: i wonder what all the pro life would say if they realized this....immunization would fall drastically, at least in the States where pro life are more than set in their ways...no matter what.

  1599. oQ

    I never wear a hat, too much hair.

  1600. robertallen1

    You've linked one doctor. This is no different from the tack taken by creationists who point to a petition signed by 400 scientists decrying the the validity of evolution. In the United States, there are over 40,000 scientists. So this represents only 10% and certainly a smaller percent when you take in the rest of the world. In other words, it says as much as your one doctor: nothing. The concept of might not making right when it comes to knowledge is certainly true for the hoi polloi, but it's the very opposite with respect to the intelligentsia in specialized fields such as medicine..
    Considering your complete lack of medical qualifications, I wonder on what you base your agreement with Dr. Blaylock as opposed to the preponderance of contradictory evidence from mainstream medicine.

  1601. robertallen1

    Speaking of someone who does not look at the facts . . .

  1602. Austin Chernencoff

    Ha this is all me, no false identity, and honestly I am regretting that a little. I feel like allen is going to attack me sometimes. I am glad he is not in my neighbourhood. I would probably be gagged and tied right now! Also for the record that was a joke. I like your point about being pro life and pro choice though. I do not like those terms myself, as they are political terms. The joke about those terms is they are both positive terms. I mean you wouldn't want to be anti-choice, or anti-life would you? I use them because everyone has agreed upon their meaning, but in no way approve of the chosen language to describe this issue.

  1603. robertallen1

    I read the article as well as your preamble last night. Notice, how once again OQ distorts--talk about a confirmation basis--it seems to be almost pathological.

  1604. robertallen1

    Well, my name is Robert Allen and there is nothing that I would write which I wouldn't tell you to your face.

  1605. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes indeed, what would they think? It is a good thing they are ignorant to the facts. You don't see this on the news after all, because the news is a business, similar to the vaccine business. There is no money to be made by not producing vaccines, and selling ad space is what tv does. So where is the money in denouncing a multi billion dollar industry?

  1606. robertallen1

    The unborn child (or fetus) would not have to be vaccinated.

  1607. robertallen1

    Doesn't follow.

  1608. Austin Chernencoff

    Speak of the devil.

  1609. robertallen1

    Where is your proof/evidence? Or is this just another of your surmises?

  1610. Austin Chernencoff

    So you admit not all doctors believe as you do then? That was the only point I was making.

  1611. Austin Chernencoff

    What are you Madden? Stating the obvious.

  1612. Austin Chernencoff

    Yes it is just my opinion. Doesn't mean it's wrong. I would like to see you prove it wrong as well. Also I know burden of proof, and if you say it's my job to prove it, I say to you, no. I don't care to prove it, I was having a conversation with someone else. If she wants me to provide evidence, I will.

  1613. robertallen1

    If that's the only point, it's really no point at all.

  1614. robertallen1

    Considering that you don't care to prove your allegation, it is garbage on the level of just about everything that you posit.
    Please remember, this is a public site and on a public site, you don't have a private conversation with someone else.
    And, by the way, you still owe me that retraction and apology.

  1615. Samuel Morrissey

    After watching the dialogue going on here for a few weeks, I now offer my opinion on it. Opinions are fine and dandy as long as you state them as such. Saying might or probably can change a definite assertion into a maybe that allows for inaccuracy, even plain falsehood.

    But the moment you make a definite assertion, you should be prepared to back it up with either sound reason or evidence or both, because you may well be asked to provide it. You should not take umbrage at being asked to provide either sound reason or evidence as you have made a statement and therefore burdened yourself with the 'proof' of it. If it is beyond your means in any way, you may of course retract your statement at any time.

    In regard to the effect and safety of vaccines, does anyone need more proof than the fact that measles, mumps, rubella, smallpox, tuberculosis etc. some of the most infectious diseases ever known. are almost unheard of here in the UK. The truth is, whenever, wherever, individuals or groups for whatever reason start refusing basic vaccines against these highly infectious diseases, the amount of recorded cases of said diseases goes up proportionally. These organisms are as evolved as us, evolved along side us, and fought with us since life began. We may never eliminate even a single one entirely, but we can prevent the ease of transmission by using vaccines. The fact that you can test a lump of soil and find many of these bacteria or viruses are certainly still there in the same numbers, but people don't get sick. Why?

    Measles and smallpox are real child killers, Mumps and Rubella list brain damage as the most common and undesirable complication, and though 'you don't see them running rampant' around your local populations you are making a rather naive reversal of cause and effect. The vaccine is the reason the disease is not running rampant. It's similar to a paranoiac schizophrenic who feels normal when he takes his pills, then makes the causal reversal and decides he doesn't need the pills anymore. To everyone else, the efficiacy of the medication is painfully apparent as their reality comes crashing apart and their behavior follows suit

    In terms of safety, since vaccines are in widespread use, even miniscule risks will occur as the population number is vast. Some will be allergic to part of the vaccine, some will contract the actual disease etc. Sadly, some will even die with the unforeseen complications. Now while these things are indeed undesirable the trade off is everyone else is immunised against the disease. Peanuts screw an awful lot more people up than vaccines. So as a warning against black and white thinking, no one chemical compound is absolutely safe for everyone.

    Another point that has not been raised is the trade off. This is the fundamental concept behind medicine; all medicines carry risks, be it poisons or physiological side effect. You only take the medicine if the benefits outweigh the risks. As you like most of us are uninformed about the risks, the decision is made by a doctor who has either experience of many similar cases and/or at least a database of all possible risks and their likelihood. With vaccines the risk is to an individual weighed against the benefit to the population, and it is hard to see how in apart from very rare and exceptional cases that the minute risk to an individual outweighs the global benefit to a population.


  1616. Austin Chernencoff

    Apologize for calling me scum, then I will in turn apologize.

  1617. Austin Chernencoff

    "The truth is, whenever, wherever, individuals or groups for whatever reason start refusing basic vaccines against these highly infectious diseases, the amount of recorded cases of said diseases goes up proportionally."

    Ok so now the burden of proof lies with you to prove this claim. I am more than willing to review any information you have that proves this correlation.

    "Now while these things are indeed undesirable the trade off is everyone else is immunised against the disease."

    Again these effects have not been proven to be long term. At least not in a double blind study, and I am less than convinced of their long term efficacy.

    "Another point that has not been raised is the trade off."

    I agree completely, but for me I think the risk is greater than the reward. If you read the risks involved with some of these vaccines, I really feel that the risk of getting the disease is lower than the positive effects the vaccine has. I suggest everyone to read the product monographs of the vaccines taken by them. I personally found the information contained within startling.

    I appreciate the way you have laid out your point of view though, and applaud your gracious attitude.


  1618. robertallen1

    Absolutely. And it's a shame that there are people like Chernencoff and OQ whose wilful ignorance and feeling that they know more than mainstream medicine not only prevent them from seeing them, but make them a danger to the population at large, as evidenced by your closing paragraph.

  1619. robertallen1

    I'm not making deals with the truth.

  1620. robertallen1

    "Does anyone need more proof than the fact that measles, mumps, rubella, smallpox, tuberculosis etc. some of the most infectious diseases ever known. are almost unheard of here in the UK." There are Wikipedia articles on all these diseases for you to read about with references to those who know far more about them than you or your Dr. Blaylock whom for some reason you choose to believe over the overwhelming preponderance of mainstream medical professionals. Then, again read about what happened when believing Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent reports, people stopped being vaccinated and incidents of rubella and other diseases increased. I have already quoted the Wikipedia article. Now you can just look it up. The preponderance of mainstream medical professionals regard this as cause and effect and they know far more about it than you and your Dr. Blaylock.

    What's really horrible and despicable about you and oQ is not only the intensity with which you perpetrate your dangerous ignorance at the expense of the well-being of others, but the pride you take in doing so.

  1621. robertallen1

    So what, there's a commercial aspect to just about everything.

  1622. robertallen1

    True. Thank you for posting it. Hope against hope that oQ and Chernencoff benefit from it.

  1623. Austin Chernencoff

    Nice example of the straw man argument. I am not talking about Andrew Wakefield, I am talking about someone else, so by bringing him up and attacking him you are displaying the straw man argument. Followed up with more ad hominem attacks on me, and in this case someone else as well. What makes you think I'm proud of it? Where does that come in? I said I was proud to not be American, which was a joke. It was a play on the common phrase.

  1624. Austin Chernencoff

    Nothing to learn for you though?

  1625. Vlatko

    Honestly, that joke represents the essence of all the comments you left so far on this thread. It portraits the irony of the fallacious reasoning of the anti-vaccines stance.

    Basically you think that there is vaccine conspiracy going on worldwide and you don't trust what thousands of thousands of professionals have done over the last 100 years.

    As I've said having that opinion is fine (like having an opinion that the Earth is flat) but to publicly propagate it as an advice is either complete ignorance or plain propaganda that can actually harm.

    Just to note that the "anti-vaccine" issue is absolved and thoroughly debunked in other threads/docs that deal specifically with the vaccines.

  1626. robertallen1

    You were asking for proof of the efficacy of vaccination, among other things, I referred you to the Wikipedia article on Andrew Wakefield. You obviously don't even know what a strawman argument is.

    Your repeated braggadoccio regrading your refusal to get vaccinated demonstrates the pride you take in your defense of the indefensible.

  1627. Achems_Razor

    lol, sometimes you make me laugh, for your info we mods do not take sides, only follow the pertinent facts of the info presented. The scientific method must always prevail, that means proof not withstanding, how that proof is delivered by what ever carrier is presented sometimes may sit on the fence, (personality clashes) but the end result is what matters re: "vaccines pro or con?" nothing else.

  1628. robertallen1

    Exactly and the pros clearly have it. Vlatko's last comment hit the nail on the head.

  1629. Achems_Razor

    I agree.

  1630. Austin Chernencoff

    Honestly don't pretend to know what I am thinking. Even if I thought the vaccine business was dishonest, I would not classify it as a conspiracy. What crime was committed? They are doing nothing illegal, so no it's not a conspiracy, by definition.

    Also if it was so thoroughly debunked then how come it is still being discussed? Also I am yet to receive that double blind study on the long term safety and efficacy of vaccines. So until I see that, I will not consider the issue "thoroughly debunked".

    You can say that my joke represents the core of my argument but it doesn't. The core of my argument involves the lack of evidence of the long term efficacy of vaccines. If you hadn't noticed I didn't push the water thing at all really. Also I posted a link showing the connection between the immune system and water, I won't post it again though, because it just gets ignored anyway.

  1631. Austin Chernencoff

    You mods have clearly taken a side. It doesn't take a genius to see that you are all pro vaccination. So why you are claiming objectivity now, I'll never know. As far as I'm concerned, you guys have let robertallen attack me repeatedly with ad hominem attacks. So where's the impartial moderation? Pretty well all of you mods have come forth to disagree with me. I find it ironic that you would claim objectivity. Honestly though, I am done with this now. I don't care to be ganged up on, by mods that claim to be impartial. I wish the best to all of you, and you have a great site here, but I can't agree with how you guys have handled this comment thread.

  1632. Emergency Stop

    The moderators have demonstrated the ability to think critically.

  1633. Vlatko

    Conspiracy doesn't mean something illegal... by definition. There are criminal, civil, political, religious, conspiracies. Just to be more precise and to avoid pointless arguments from your side, note that I'm talking about "conspiracy theory" which anti-vaccination paranoia definitively is.

    There is a group called "flat earth society" and they claim and discuss on the internet and otherwise that the Earth is flat, although they're thoroughly debunked. How come? Why that issue is still being discussed? By your fallacious analogy since it is still being discussed it can't be "thoroughly debunked."

    There are several explanations why, besides overwhelming amount of evidence, you chose to believe and spread disinformation: confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, communal reinforcement, psychological projection, epistemic bias, clinical psychology, socio-political origins, influence of critical theory, media tropes, etc.

  1634. Achems_Razor

    I speak for myself, my side is science, the scientific method, nobody is ganging up on you, so do not take us Mods on as being your parents and go crying to us because you feel you are being wronged by any specific individual, it always takes two to tango.

    So I am afraid that you have to fight your own battles. We are impartial in that regard, and in our moderation's. I feel confident that the other Mods will agree.

  1635. robertallen1

    "Also if it [the anti-vaccine issue) was so thoroughly debunked then how come it is still being discussed?" That has all the intelligence of asking, "If evolution has been so throughly proved to be a fact, why are there those who deny it?" Answer: because there are those like you who think they know something when they don't.
    Whether you acknowledge it or not, vaccination has been directly responsible for the virtual elimination of measles, mumps, polio, whooping cough, penumonia, rubella, chickenpox and diphtheria, testimony enough to the long-term efficacy of vaccines.
    Once again, what you will consider is only so much garbage. The material has been presented and what matters is that mainstream medicine considers it valid, not you.

    You and oQ are making medical judgments which you are both unqualified to make and by acting on them (in this case refusing to be vaccinated), you risk doing considerable harm to others if you have not already done so. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    You still owe me that apology and retraction.

  1636. robertallen1

    You're right. Here in the states, you cannot be charged with conspiracy, but rather with conspiracy to do something illegal.

  1637. robertallen1

    Now that you mention it, I agree. All the moderators and Vlatko have come forth clearly on the side of science (not that there should be another side) and it certainly adds to the quality of the site that they do.
    Chernencoff is no different from other ignoramuses who expect respect for positing nonsense--and in his case, dangerous nonsense--and start crying foul when he is met with derision instead. It's one thing to differ perhaps on the efficacy and side-effects of a certain vaccine--and let's face it, there are such controversies--that's what science is all about, but to state that all vaccination is and has been of no effect and then to act on this mistaken belief by not getting vaccinated is something else.

  1638. robertallen1

    Thanks for the article--and yes, I am interested. The fatal error with this clinical trial is that it uses a vaccine and we all know vaccines just don't work. Ask Austin Chernencoff.

  1639. over the edge

    i found the article by searching the NCSE site
    it is not a one page article but the authors and title are the same. i will look at your links i am watching a series (i will suggest to Vlatko later today) that has most of my attention at the moment

  1640. robertallen1

    This is certainly the article, but how does one get it to appear?

  1641. over the edge

    disqus doesn't seem to like the link. it works fine until i post it here. try the NCSE website and put the title of the article in the internal search bar and see if the article appears. that is how i originally found it. sorry for the broken limk i will remove it

  1642. robertallen1

    The best way seems to be to download it as a PDF by searching for it by title "More Geological Reasons Noah's Flood Did Not Happen." I tried copying the PDF to Disqus, but it did not work well.

  1643. over the edge

    i read both articles. the NCSE article is very well done and sourced. another nail in an already well nailed coffin. the other article while good was light on specifics. thanks for posting both

  1644. robertallen1

    Just like any critically thinking person. Now, what's your excuse?

  1645. robertallen1

    I demand apologies when people lie. Now which comments have I been responsible for getting removed? Or are you another liar?
    Someone who tries to dictate how others should comment gets no respect from me.

  1646. Unity

    Yes he does break most TDF commenting rules, he does not make "polite nor friendly comments", If your comments consistently or intentionally make this community a less civil and enjoyable place to be, you and your comments will be excluded from it. I do not understand why the mods permit Robert's behavior. I love the website, but for some reason he's got some immunity, might have something to do with being the "top commenter". Which is pointless in my opinion if most comments are rude and repetitive.

  1647. oQ

    Look at it as if Robert was the metronome for a grand orchestra of words being written and conserved in computer archives. "Il bat la cadence" by being repetitious and loud and on time all the time. He makes friends by showering those he likes but he mainly makes ennemies on a regular basis by shoveling those he dislike. I have come to enjoy reading him as a i would read a popular actor in a soap opera. His demeanor points to his acting skill as a "terminator" more than to his knowledge where he would shine.
    On an other note.....Learning to Think Critically is a broad sentence, it fits well in several aspects of life

    Some people may have written more than him but have splitted their file numerous times ...(thinking Achems), he is one of the older participant i know of.

  1648. robertallen1

    Once again, you owe me an apology and a retraction for your bad-faced lie about my not accepting sources other than my own. This is only one of several reason why I dislike you, another being your claims to knowledge which you don't have as evidenced by the many times you have been shown to be wrong, your debasement of the very concept of education, but foremost, your refusal to get vaccinated and to have your daughters vaccinated as well, thus recklessly endangering others.

  1649. oQ

    I repeat: "no apologies coming from me...as i said you accept only those links you post when you dissagree with someone and since you disagree with me on everything, therefore my comment is valid".

  1650. robertallen1

    You've now repeated your lie only in a different form from the original. So I repeat that I will keep reminding you of the apology and retraction that you owe me.

  1651. Achems_Razor

    Ah, I heard my name mentioned. You are right, I have probably written the most on TDF, split protocol a few times over the years.

    Without playing favorites, I do not know what you mean by "Roberts behavior" his posts gets deleted as much as anyone else if they do not adhere to the comment policy as our deleted file shows.

    No one should talk about other posters between themselves on TDF these posts are off topic.

  1652. anastsius

    Scientists' (or so called) are discrediting science by selling politcal agendas such as global warming, cooling, manmade climate change or what ever they are calling it now. Pretty sad that "so called scientists get caught corrupting data and other "so called scientists" dismiss it because suddenly real science isn't as important as a political agenda.

    Big difference between basic scientific method and some of the crao sold here by a science "expert".

  1653. Sarah M

    No that is not true, Einstein never discounted that God could exist. I have read this many times throughout his work, I have been a big follower of Einstein for many years. Honestly, I did not watch the film yet, but there is no need for you all to be so rude to each other, I find it very ignorant when we cannot have tolerance for each other. We all have a right to critically think for ourselves and sometimes we may perceive the evidence differently, but we should all keep an open mind and know that there is a very good possibility that we still know very little there is to know.

  1654. robertallen1

    "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human
    weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends
    which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle
    can (for me) change this". — Albert
    Einstein, letter to Eric Gutkind, January 3 1954

    Learn to read, lady, All I wrote was that Einstein was not a theist and this quote written the year before his death proves it and also that gives the lie to your statement that you have been a:"big follower of Esintein for many years." . I have no tolerance for ignorance passing as knowledge.

  1655. a_no_n

    we call it climate change because that is wha tour scientific understanding of it has developed into...that's what science does...it changes, it matures, it adapts.
    there is fifty plus years worth of hard evidence supporting climate change.
    on the other side are a few BP press releases Exxon statements, and a multi-million dollar international misinformation campaign aimed at riling up people who are naturally mistrustful of science, like yourself.
    I love the way you can say all of that anti science stuff whilst actually disguising yourself as somebody who is pro science...it's delightfully devious, but not exactly original...Creationists have been flogging that dead horse for years.

  1656. robertallen1

    The climate has been changing ever since the earth came into being and anyone who says any different is more ignorant than a creationist (if that's possible). The question is to how great an extent man has been responsible for this change and to what extent can we control its more deleterious aspects. I don't claim to know the answer.

    "I love the way you can say all of that anti science [sic] stuff whilst actually disguising yourself as somebody who is pro science." This applies not only to climate change, but also to evolution, abiogenesis, age of the earth. However it not delightfully devious. It is patently and perniciously devious.

  1657. robertallen1

    So what. Mainstream medicine doesn't and that's all that matters. Anyone who deliberately refuses to be vaccinated subjects others around him to the dangers of infection and are despicable excuses for people.

  1658. oQ

    When i press my link, it goes right to the pdf doc.

    Am i right to say that scepticism is what pushes homogeneity out of the way?

  1659. over the edge

    sorry i wasn't clear. i get to the PDF but within the PDF the quotes used to make their case are followed by links (in blue). these links do not work. i have been burned too many times that i always check the source for quotes to see them in their entirety. even if i agree with the quote. maybe i am too jaded lol but i have to verify for myself. i did find out that the committee that is referenced in most of the links has not had a meeting since 1992. also in fairness to the article it was produced in 2011 and the UK government reorganized their web archives in march of 2013 so the links might have been correct at the time of publishing. as i have no way of verifying the quotes without reading 6 years worth of minutes ( too lazy to do that). i do not know if the article is trying to deceive me or not

  1660. robertallen1

    As usual, thanks for the link.
    It obviously takes a medical professional of Dr. Gorki's caliber to see through the casuistry of articles such as the one cited by oQ. The problem is that people like oQ with no medical education or training believe themselves competent to evaluate articles such as the one she cites when she hasn't a clue what's behind it and then try to pass this article and other similar ones off as evidence not only of a controversy in mainstream medicine anent vaccination when no such controversy exists, but against vaccination in general. In this way, she and others like her not only promote their dangerous ignorance, but by refusing to get vaccinated and to have members of their family vaccinated as well, endanger those with whom they come in contact. This is beneath contempt.

  1661. robertallen1

    While Potholer's absolutely right, the situation is different in this case, for we know the source.

    It is virtually mpossible for a layperson to assess a technical article via the internet (the article by Dr. Gorki was a stroke of luck)--that is what education is for. Therefore, the smart person either consults with a mainstream professional (in this case perhaps one's doctor) or with one of the many mainstream medical organizations.
    Despite her complete absence of medical qualifications, oQ feels herself competent to evaluate a technical article on vaccination when it really takes a professional to detect its inherent flaws. Those like her are responsible for the Chinese whisper effect described in the video, often with disastrous consequences.

  1662. over the edge

    while i agree that the article by Dr. Gorki was lucky to find and the Chinese whisper effect is typical of many internet misunderstandings. my point was the inability to see the original source that the article was basing the claims on. the government documents no longer appear at the link given and have been archived in a series of year long files. while the BBC link doesn't exist anymore (if at all). maybe it is just my skeptical (see paranoid) views but i try to always look for the original sources and i would check the links provided within a paper to see where they go ( if anywhere at all) before posting it.

  1663. Austin Chernencoff

    It would be from the same province I live in. Those who disbelieve together stay together. Makes me think I have made the right choice for a place to live, can't say I'm happy with how the elections just went though. Thanks for sharing though. Hopefully Robertallen doesn't see this. If he replies I think I will bludgeon myself with something.

  1664. robertallen1

    I agree entirely. The great thing about Wikipedia is that you can immediately check the sources which I often do. I have yet to find any inaccurate or deceitful reporting.

  1665. robertallen1

    At least the general public would be safer.

  1666. docoman

    There are other hidden dangers then first appear with not having or giving vaccinations as well. I got sick before I'd even heard of the illness because some bosses decided to risk my health to save their company some short term dollars rather than mention the possibility of illness or the vaccination option to their employees.
    Those bosses will never know how close it came to biting them back in a much more personal way then the law here allows. They didn't realise they'd be sharing any terminal diagnosis with some they chose to risk.

    My life experience places me firmly in the camp of pro vaccination in most cases.

  1667. robertallen1

    And the statistics are clearly on the side of vaccination. Other than those who have been proscribed by their mainstream medical providers, any one who refuses to get vaccinated poses a danger to others and has no business being around them.

  1668. docoman

    Where do you stand on the the Flu vaccination? I have had it in the past, I don't anymore. I quarantine myself as much as possible instead with that one now. (usually me staying away from others with the flu)

  1669. robertallen1

    My doctor told me I needed it and I got it. My doctor also told me I needed a shingles vaccine because I went through a bout of chicken pox in my childhood and I got it. What's the good of going to your doctor if you're not going to take his advice?
    No vaccine is 100% effective, but vaccination is a great way to turn the odds in your favor and also minimize the risk of infecting others.

    As I understand it, the various contemporary flu strains are related to the great influenza epidemic of 1917-1918 and like so many viruses, these strains are air-borne and mutate like mad (a joke and a half on the anti-evolutionists). So I wonder how effective mere social sequestration is. Besides, unless you're a trained medical professional, how can you determine who has the flu and who doesn't and for that matter which strain it is? As I mentioned before, the same strain can produce different symptoms and different strains can produce the same symptoms. It depends on which part of the body the strain attacks.
    The best you can do is ask your doctor and from what you've told me about yourself, you must have several.
    P.S. I guess the term HMO is unfamiliar in your neck of the woods.

  1670. docoman

    I've not heard HMO before.

    I've had the Flu Vac in the past, missed it some years and avoided everyone when possible. I'll be getting it again this year, likely next week, the swine flu is around again, a nasty strain apparently.
    Edit- worst place is the reception room at the doctors... :( Sick people everywhere!
    I've had doctors say take it, others say it doesn't matter. If I don't meet too many people it's not hard to miss catching it usually.

  1671. robertallen1

    HMO (Health Maintenance Organization) Look up Kaiser Permanente (Southern California Permanente Medical Group) for more information. I consider myself fortunate to be on the plan.

    You're doing the right thing. Better to have it.

  1672. docoman

    They look like a good choice mate. Been going a long time and looks like it's ranked among the top in your state, and quite large. Over 5,500 physicians ought to have most things covered.

    I'm using the public system here... still on the waiting list for more specialist appointments that were apparently coming mid January. :/ Doing what I can myself and with my GP while waiting. There's ways around some of the BS of the system here, just takes time. My emergency visits are slowly tallying up, they'll get to me. Referred to two hospitals at the same time I am at the moment, I have one doing/done most of the tests I'll require for the other that has the specialist I'm waiting to consult with.

    I probably should be starting to think about initiating another long, drawn out and complicated court proceeding to prove the link back to my earlier illness, which would bring in legal and medical costs and compensation etc. Got to work on my health first, then the paperwork later. Insurance companies are almost as bad as churches trying to get them to pay up for anything. :(

  1673. robertallen1

    Indeed the plan is wonderful. Specialists in every conceivable field of mainstream medicine, not to mention full-service facilities all over California and a computer network allowing me and my providers immediate access to my records. For the $120.00 per month deducted from my social security, I co-pay $5 for medical appointments, $20 for lab work and vaccinations, x-rays, tests and consultations with non-m.d. personnel are included. My pharmaceutical expenses come to $10-$20 per prescription. I recently picked up three pairs of glasses for which I paid nothing and my cataract surgery ran me $150.00 which is to say it was performed gratis. Indeed, one of the few heavens on earth.

  1674. over the edge

    i know what you are going through (at least a little). it has been fifteen months since my injury (and too many appointments and surgeries to list). my last operation (they claim) was to be Friday. i called to confirm only to find out they cancelled it and rescheduled it for June. when i asked why i wasn't informed i was told that they do not do that and it is up to me to keep up with changes. on top of all that they lost my x-rays so i need to get them done AGAIN. so i get to look forward to another summer unable to drive or do anything that the summer brings. but at least the drugs are good

  1675. docoman

    Arrr, bugger, sorry to hear that mate, I didn't know you were unwell :( BS the waiting isn't it. And how dare you not read their mind when they change something!
    Lol, my last letter they sent me, all it said is they'll send me a letter soon.... Ya gotta laugh at it or you'll lose your mind and... go to church or do something really dumb. :)
    I don't like the pain meds I'm on now, they work but they're too addictive. I have to make myself watch them real close, take as few as possible, have some days off them. 2 of those and a couple scotchs and I'm in la la land. :)

    I told my sister when she started her cancer treatments there's a reason they call us patients. ;)

  1676. over the edge

    calling us "patients" is fine. i am not sure i am comfortable with calling what they do "practicing" ;)

  1677. docoman

    Just got back from seeing my GP. Had a chat to him about the flu vac, I just had the jab. :)

  1678. robertallen1

    If I were to tell you that I'm proud of you, you might think that I'm talking down to you and get offended, but one way or the other, I'm proud of you.
    I don't know who I hate more creationists/fundamentalists or vaccination deniers.

  1679. docoman

    My Doc pointed out I'm already sick and in the risk category, so should. He's right, so were you. Can't beat that logic.

    A couple of nights ago I saw an add for a current affairs show (the 'ratings' kind I don't watch) talking about some group here calling for children in pre-school / kindergardern / child care to not be allowed in unless they've been vaccinated, as they pose a risk. It was squashed as discrimination apparently, ( I only saw the add.).

  1680. Chris Thomas

    There are some problems with this video from within the world of science. The work of Rupert Sheldrake (Which is peer-reviewed and has not been successfully debunked) proves the existence of certain forms of esp, as have