Age of Deceit: Fallen Angels and the New World Order

Age of Deceit: Fallen Angels and the New World OrderIs there a connection between UFOs, alien abductions, channeling spirits, demonic possessions, the new age movement, secret societies, and satanism?

In Age of Deceit: Fallen Angels and the New World Order, we investigate why the New World Order and the Global Elite are tirelessly working to form a One World Government and who they are getting this instruction from.

A biblical look at the history of fallen angels and it's relationship to the New World Order and the new age movement.

Topics covered are the fall of mankind, the pre-flood world as Atlantis, the new age through theosophy, the fallen angels and their origin of planting the seeds to society, UFOs, ETs and abduction cases, demonic possession, channeling, and more.

Watch the full documentary now. You can buy the DVD at Amazon.com.

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Ratings: 7.40/10 from 130 users.
  • dewflirt

    I'm going to get naked and pole dance for the devil ;)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=610870900 Markus Fasting

    Awsome!:) Happy easter

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=581796477 Craig Spraggon

    hell...me too !

  • http://www.facebook.com/jasonsimtl Jason Sim

    this doc is a joke =.=''

  • http://www.facebook.com/ElmoPutz David Foster

    I ended at the word "Illuminati". Took all of what... 30 seconds?

  • Crab_Nebula

    Cold and misty morning, I heard a warning born in the air...
    about an age of power, where no-one had an hour to spare..
    -elp

  • dewflirt

    Unlike this doc, that would be worth seeing!

  • petekong

    There needs to be a team of rational people on this website, with an ability to research, ridding, or not accepting, so called "documentaries" which have no basis in logic.

  • Earthwinger

    Confession time. I usually love this kinda garbage....in the same way that I love really bad episodes of The Twilight Zone, or particularly bad B movies. Perfect viewing for a rainy day, curled up on the sofa with a pot of tea and a plate of dewflirt's extra special brownies. ;)

    This doc. was a bit too rich even for my tastes though. :D

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/XJ2CUOUVZB76RGJNAIAA2V6WI4 Nasty

    Oh look, it's a crocumentary

  • Guest

    I have a friend who used to say, if you watch all docs as if it's a second hand store and search through, your bound to find an idea or two that were worth the making of it.
    Haven't watch this one yet, it seems like i got to leave my glasses on while watching.
    az

  • CountJoseph

    Turn that pole dance into a .doc and you got something....

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    lol sorry man, as much as it pains us we dont censor which documentaries get put up here.

    but i assure you we do not agree with the r*tarded views expressed in this piece of garbage lol.

  • dewflirt

    Same here, avid reader of Fortean Times but this was a step too far. Not to worry Wings, I'll save the brownies ;)

  • dewflirt

    Yeah, problems! ;)

  • Guest

    I'lll send the post if you need one, there is one in the closet here. How high is your ceiling?
    az

  • dewflirt

    God I so want to say 9 inches will do, but I might be asking for trouble !

  • Achems_Razor

    Damn it girl, you know your 9 inch stuff will be deleted, fallen angel? angel not!

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @petekong,

    Fair enough... I must admit that lot of docs don't make their way here because of my bias, plus we don't post too short, very specific and/or a way to amateur docs (another bias)... so basically yes, we research, we're getting rid of, we do not accept... but once in a blue moon we say: what the hell, we'll post that.

  • dewflirt

    Sorry boss, got the devil in me today ;)

  • Guest

    Do you know how many sad people got to laugh on this one?
    az

  • dewflirt

    I think with all the good docs here you can easily be forgiven the odd wonky one. I am sure it will be to someones taste and why not cater to all ? :)

  • Guest

    I am gonna go sit in a hot bath and watch this one while i am simmering.
    az

  • nexus974

    CooCoo...CooCoo....CooCoo...

  • Guest

    are you calling our sweetest girl, KooKookaChoo?
    az

  • over the edge

    lol Kent Hovind, Alex Jones, secret societies,religion, new world order, aliens, secret meanings,possession,Atlantis,selective readings of the bible and so on with no actual proof of anything. an orgy of conspiracy and delusion for the weak minded. oh well at least they will be all in one place

  • Sion88

    Or... entertainment!

  • over the edge

    @Sion88
    you may be right but weather the point of this doc was meant to be proof of something or simply entertainment, all that means is it fails on two fronts

  • Sion88

    What better way to get people to pay you for your stories than to make them believe they are true?

  • WTC7

    It was actually at 0.14 that illuminati were first mentioned :). Well, I lasted to slightly over 16 min. Heard quite a lot of cr*p in that short period of time though... :(

  • Aaylsworth

    I made it the 41 sec mark...ugh

  • urafunny1

    good entertainment , bit like watching horror, what annoys me is when people quote the bible like its a historical proof and not just a massive load of confusion, morals and dogma (albert pike)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ES5YFURR5VOTKTGHD4PIVYXPVI John

    Pure, 100%, BULLSH*T.

  • Achems_Razor

    Leave our sweetheart KooKookaChoo alone! she has bodyguards!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/OMPQFSXYDCFYDP3HFKKG25NFJY hamdy

    this movie is just wasting of time and brain IQ

  • VareVatxingU

    Challenge accepted... lol! I think I'm actually the only one here who sat through the whole thing! :) It does have some interesting stuff to say though!! Even if I think I could've presented the same hypothesis in about 40 minuts haha. Like most of the docs on similar topics, you can simply agree with it or not. It is not meant to be a presentation of facts. Even so I don't think we should reject learning something new or understanding someone else's viewpoint just because it doesn't match our own. I am not a religious person, but I'm glad I watched this as it made me see familiar topics in a new light and perspective. So, in conclusion, thank you Vlatko for allowing this type of docs to slip through every once in a while. :)

  • Toematoe

    I would like to point out, that it only takes ONE ufo sighting, that isn't a plume of swamp gas or chinese laterns or flares. It doesn't take esoteric knowledge to understand meaning and purpose. Please be open minded and do your own research.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ScarFaith H Neil Sangte S

    hey c'mon the bible isnt accurate it seems acurate because mankind is fulfilling it on purpose..they want us to believe on religion,freedom and stuff while they do all the planning for their new world order we r following a path that was well designed for us...cant you see??

  • Malchik

    Forty seconds into video; Kent Hovind speaks; stopped watching.

  • lazyfruit

    I also watched it all and pretty much agree with VareVatxingU. I'm also not religous but found some parts interesting and whether you agree or not, its presented in a more intelligent way than a lot of other documentaries on here e.g.those Ancient Alien wackjobs! Not really sure why I stuck it out but found it somehow kinda relaxing (had a little snooze midway). To sum up, I've seen much worse.

  • Julie

    I do believe Bill Cooper's view on ufos, but I do not believe we are the only planet that has life...this is starting to get stupid and Im only 43 mins in..

  • Julie

    yeah no kidding..

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SNGQP4EJYBQI2GT36KTWEAGEJE Richard

    Sorry I just could not stomach any more @ 28:15...

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZJRXQ6RHS5QPRP3QX5HZDKRZLE Jeremy

    Hovind. Nuff said.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/PAYKFWCQTBQFB3IQ72CXHN3VKM Bogdan

    what a waste of time lol ...
    btw NWO is a good thing for the future of mankind...

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Jacquard/1210162491 John Jacquard

    the best comedy of the year

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    if not for any other reason to watch the comments?! lol

  • morsie2

    I thoroughly enjoyed that....found it very interesting......more please Vlatko.

    After reading all the previous posts here - all I can say in reply is Baa Baa to you all.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000205622745 Donald Edward Goodman

    "uses humans?" Oh, you mean like the Federal government. As in the Bush family, the Rockefellers, and the Rothschilds? To put it simply, as in THE GOVERNMENT" itself!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Sebastian-Barrera/715152941 John-Sebastian Barrera

    DO NOT WATCH THIS, its a waste of time

  • http://profiles.google.com/aompes ramdan shab3an

    17:56 s is more than enough

  • relament

    Hilarious documentary! Christians are painfully goofy! lol

  • Guest

    Who can find a worst doc on TDF?
    az

  • petekong

    Actually I've had a change of heart. Now I realise that I've been listening to the voice of Satan for my liberal views and am part of the conspiracy to reduce world population through vaccines distribution.

    All right, maybe this "doco" is worth leaving up here for a good laugh.

  • over the edge

    @Az
    i was thinking maybe the odd one that has been "removed by user" but no this is way worse

  • Yeheshua

    Having been brought up as a jehovahs witness, sitting through this felt exactly the same as listening to the sunday sermon I was forced to attend through childhood. The bible being quoted every 30 seconds. This is mind numbing drivel of epic proportions. "I believe" is the start of every other sentence. This is not a documentary. Its a sunday school recording. At 2hrs:18m " and its kinda like god takes all this dirt, he puts it together, he blows his spirit in man"...How enlightening. Not surprising though, the premise is that the intellect is evil.Intellect=forbidden fruit that satan seduced eve with. Clearly, this is an attempt to destroy it.

    Does the christian god have a problem with those who use intellect and can think for themselves as opposed to believing a book that was apparently inspired by him?

    In that case, my thanks to satan for giving humanity the capacity to think and for the scientific method of aquiring knowledge.

  • drinker69

    The Perfect Vagina or The House of Cunt.

  • lex lexich

    utter bs of a documentary

  • Guest

    What do you mean The Perfect Vagina? It's on the Editor's pick and has 610 comments...lol
    Someone thinks it's good.
    az

  • Rocky Racoon

    WE need global governance only not by the private proffiteer's and banksters such as the World Bank and IMF all being done behind closed doors. We have the technology to have full participatory government and all we get are more and more restrictions on our freedom not more....something wrong with this picture.
    RR

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DNJXBYU7EUKOL6MH7RYDER64EE CREEPY CREEPER

    Sounds like we should destroy the rich people then. Count me in unless I win the lottery or something.

  • mudshark23

    Man! Why does the incorrect use of the apostrophe bug me so much?

    Anyone else?.. Just me?

    The topic sentence for this page ,"Is there a connection between UFO’s, alien abductions, channeling spirits, demonic possessions, the new age movement, secret societies, and satanism?"

    There's a beauty college here with a BIG SIGN that reads...

  • mudshark23

    "ALL ABOUT LOOK'S"

    meh, It's a beauty college.

    This isn't.

  • mudshark23

    Doesn't matter, just watched the first fifteen minutes.

    TuPac told me to keep watching but I reminded him that he's dead.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=695210824 J. Andrew Roussakis

    this ****** me up even more than before. I have no idea what to believe now. THANKS CHRIS

  • http://twitter.com/AdamMVillarreal Adam M Villarreal

    Thank god some fallen angels taught humans root cutting. That is definitely going to be the key to the new world order. Man, this was the dumbest thing I have ever watched for 45 minutes that was not on Mtv.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_B4QERQQTSPMUFSJMGY5MBN623Q Martha

    I disagree - I think it is VERY IMPORTANT to watch this - you need to know what some of these people are thinking. It is important to understand what is behind the whole "Christians" are being persecuted speech/movement. It is important to recognize mass madness (and their ability to vote, buy guns, control text books in public schools etc) in all of it's overt and subtle forms - to be afraid and very concerned about these folks.

  • Sieben Stern

    how long can you stare into the stupid without blinking? XD

  • Sieben Stern

    is it just me or when the guy is describing Luciferianism it sounds like he's talking about the religious christian right?

    an hour in and i feel like i should have to water these toons twice a week they're so stupid. it's galling to think that there are grownups that still believe this poop.

  • britoven322

    When I watch documentaries like this and see all the fear and superstition that so many religious people still cling to even in this day and age of science,I wonder if the human race will ever grow up and stop being "Afraid of the boogey man"!!We need to stop clinging to these fairy tales about "Satan" and "God","Jesus","Mohammed","demons" etc,and start taking responsibility for our own destiny.

  • http://www.facebook.com/shobhon Tawhid Rahman Shobhon

    I had a good laugh watching this! Maybe its because of what I just smoked from my vaporizer!

  • misterwong

    Oh yes.Forgot to mention.This is SO absurd,it is terrifying

  • misterwong

    UFO's?..Yeah,it bugs me too

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Phill-Pelling/1405591202 Phill Pelling

    What a load of total shit. I am so tired of all the crap about the world is going to end on 21,12,2012 or god or Jesus is going to come back.
    Every time someone gives a date that something is going to happen on a date in the future, the date comes and goes and nothing ever happens.
    That is our problem we are all waiting for what others is telling us will happen. And because of it the we all just keep on Raping our world of resources and polluting it until it becomes so bad that we can no longer live here, Then it will be to late as there is nowhere else to go.
    We all have good and evil in us, and it is up to us to practise being good so we can take care of our home and stop destroying it.
    Instead of waiting for god or aliens to return and save us all, it's not going to happen. We will all destroy ourselves if we keep on waiting and not changing our ways and stop fighting and polluting our only home.
    We would not pour gallons of toxic waste in our homes, but we are all guilty of doing this to our world directly or indirectly. If we are going to save our world we all need to stop fighting our fellow humans. And we all need to stop using plastic and all other things that pollute our home world.
    No God or Alien is going to save us only us can save us....

  • quiv240sxse

    asscociations where there are none...ease up on the dusty old book.

  • phillip wong

    Nonsense.

  • http://twitter.com/_Simple_Simon_ Simple Simon says

    As christ didnt exist and the story of him is a copy of the 500bc mithras story that means no Christ so no god so no devil, just one huge lie to control people with

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/YVHUFUHV4RCUKXYUO6IVRNRLNU IAM Awake

    I was raised in that belief system and I find that what the Witnesses were teaching in the 70's is what most churches are teaching today, especially with regard to the idea that we are living in the last days. In response to your query, does God have a problem with people using their brain? I think if he wanted us to ignore logic and reason he would have designed our brain quite differently, don't you? Have you ever noticed that in the story of the garden of Eden, the serpent tells the truth and God is the one who lied?
    Could it be that the Bible is a tool for discerning the hearts and minds of those who read it? That is, if you find it appropriate to worship the kind of God depicted in the old testament, what does is say about you? That you support injustice, cruelty, slavery, inequality, etc? Isn't it true that if we look at 'the fruits of the spirit' of the followers of the teachings put forth in both the old and new testament, they fit the description of 'evildoers'?
    The Bible, and ingenious tool. Not written by God, but maybe designed and used by Him/It.
    God won't save us from the mess we are in. If life teaches us anything at all, it is that God allows ALL to suffer the consequences of their actions.
    Wish evil on no one, even if they deserve it. Most, not all, but most Christians can't wait for the 'non-believers' to suffer God's wrath.
    Only a new spirit of cooperation will save us now.
    Good luck all!

  • Yeheshua

    In response to your questions.

    1.I have yet to come to any conclusions about a whether there is a designer to the brain and doubt I will any time soon. If designing did take place, I take issue with the designer being given a gender. It certainly seems as though intellect was what the deity of the bible tried to keep from humans. The desire for absolute control is brazenly exhibited through the 'good book', and suppressing intellect is crucial for any tyrannical regime.
    2.Lier is one of the many appropriate labels for this archetypal despot.
    3.Could be. My feeling is that its a worthless piece of material. To think that trees are cut down to produce them is depressing. The paper would've been infinately more useful left as part of a forest.
    'controlling hearts and minds' is perhaps more accurate.
    4.That you are terrified of death/hell and will do/serve anything that comforts your unaddressed fears.
    5.You'd think so, but those parts of the book are not given much attention by 'believers'.
    6.Who is 'they'?

  • http://twitter.com/nickdrakewhat Nick Drake

    It really is documentaries like these that blur the truth. You are adopting conspiracy theories but throwing god will's into it.

  • schnorkies

    Am I the only one that has actually READ the Bible in here?

    All I can say is that there are sure going to be allot of people in for a BIG surprise!

  • G8grudge

    This fictional lucifer is surely not only concerned with challenging christian beliefs. There are a lot of other religions out there for any NWO to deal with. The Architects of the NWO are definitely evil (bad) and our focus should be on how to stop them and not argue the basis of their beliefs. A bullet through my head will do as much damage being shot by a christian as that of a occulter. This argument is centuries old but my life is short so I will stick to trying to stop evil men from doing wrong in my lifetime and at the same time live my life with love, kindness and honour for a start. As you argue and debate, their grip on your children's future is tightened. Lucifer does not exist. Greedy, ruthless people exist and have designs on making us build our own prison. Lets fight them.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    i have read the bible. it is one of the reasons i know christianity is nonsense.

  • Sieben Stern

    yeah they're going to be totally surprised when they find out it's all BS.

  • earthsfriend

    I haven't watch this but in the first 5 mins it's already quoting the bible!! We don't need the bible to tell us that there are evil hard-hearted men in control of our world. It's everywhere just look around.The earth can provide for all of her children and everyone of us is here for a reason. The premise of the doc is most likely correct but using the bible to prove it only perpetuates fear and confusion. We need to stop thinking in us versus them terms. The earth has very clever ways of cleansing her toxins. Don't forget we all have a divine spark inside of us and no book or doctrine can begin to comprehend what that even means. I think that's part of the beauty of life, it's up to each of us to find our way and how we fit in to bettering this beautiful earth we live on. Remember love is what holds our universe together and love always overcomes darkness.

  • cutthebsdotcodotuk

    Social predators from ants to lions live in hierarchial societies as predator No.1 we are no different.

    Whats this about a one world government being evil?

    6 billion heads are better than 300 million the only reason we are successful as a species is our ability to interact and share complex ideas. Evolution of a social species is most likely to take us to a place where we are so good at it we dont need to divide ourselves into smaller more managable social groups (countries).In 10,000 years give or take we have moved from small bands of nomadic hunter gathers to the current situation. A cohesive democratic one world government could be a good thing.....

    The whole faith thing just blurs the picture religion is another way of controlling people through fear, primarily fear of change! (Also other fears factors many of these mentioned in Maslow's hierarchy of needs)

    If God were all powerful then he would be able to build a wall too big for himself to jump over....but he cant because its a paradox, and the exsistance of paradox's like this one mean all powerful beings cannot exist.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/VIUKEG5W7OTCP3ZGFNWPUQ6LSE Michael

    Weapons grade stupidity.

  • Achems_Razor

    Read the bible? which one? which religion do you speaketh of? A BIG surprise?? Holy moley!

    Funny religee's!

  • Astronomer01

    Just Jesus preachers nothing new. Build ideas up then knock them down.

  • AbdelZ

    What's wrong about 1 world government or new world order ? You gotta be kidding : slavery , domination & power

    Imposing a certain view of the world , life , the universe , certain values .....to the rest of humanity: is that no enough evil or fascism according to you ?

    Come on, get real, please

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000631933465 Fecioru Florin

    Haha! great! I find that this kind of stuff is nice to watch when you're tired and just feel like letting your brain rot a bit.

    Edit. Having watched all of this - all two hours thirty - I can say wholeheartedly I regret doing so. While watching it, I could l feel my head caving from the immense pressure of the stupidity that is presented in this video.

  • http://twitter.com/AstraStarr AstraStarr

    putting a religious spin on the truth of the elite nwo just hurts everyone and makes the cause look less reputable. good job ruining the truth.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/BK77DMUXI2VXDMR4P42TTUSGQQ Brett

    This is like some sort of spooky mindtrick (ghosts) for making all/some/about 45% (I think) the 'DEVILS' go into your head.

    Egro (latin word for Mexico), that will then allow the 'Cat People' (elite) to make all the machines go bonkers (A.I + Anti Luddite Fallacy - 55% ghosts = Machine Bonkers).

    I could have got this wrong but I watched about 2.43% (Maths) of this 'SCIENCE' Docusoap/Ambient Music/Talking/Narrative (Voice Words)

    I have to go now. My name is Brian Dad. (@parrhesia101)

  • zevolev

    I would seriously have to question the belief of any Christian blindly believing this -- verbatim-- without challenging/researching it. Ie:

    "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says. He is always convinced that it says what he means"
    ~George Bernard Shaw

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2CMRUFOSDR4W2WVXHMCK3DP26M Siddharth

    Half way through this bullshit...and i am not going to bother watching the rest...this is such a waste of time...the pope and his pals can watch this crap and blissfully shake in unbridled ecstacy...what a piece of shit...this documentary is the biggest deception of all time....

  • egodrive

    This documentary is a perfect example why reasonable people will never take religious people serious. Such perverted mindsets are bound to create evil.

    "Religion poisons everything."
    - C. Hitchens

    I would add: Even their enemies. That's why it's so hard to get rid of it.

  • chrisredfield

    This is more like re-introduction to the matrix.

  • Hammer2Fall

    The Agenda of the New World Order is one constructed by Male Buffoons with a female figure head, Lucifer. They can't be taken seriously. The lack of female references and opinions, makes this documentary incredibly biased.

    Kind regards, Francis Bacon, The Advancement of Learning

  • Gonny Shimura

    Hey thanks for all the comments folks. I am the "idiotic, irrational, illogical, religious fundamental, blind, ignorant" maker of this film.

    I am a Christian (whatever connotation you want to prescribe to that title) grew up in an atheistic home and I do believe there is a global conspiracy going on behind the scenes. I think it's fascinating seeing all the negativity being posted here. It reminds me of the proponents of tolerance..."Be tolerant...or else!"

    My question to all the so called "haters" out there is...what do YOU think the problem is? As a Christian, I believe it is the condition of the human heart. We call it sin. It's not a systematic problem. In other words, the challenges we face are not the cause of governments, economies, religions, etc...rather these are the effects or symptoms to a much deeper, human flaw.

    In any case, I am more than happy to discuss any particular points of the film whether negative or positive. And for those who sat through the whole 2.5 hours, kudos...that takes a lot of boredom.

  • Hammer2Fall

    Why do you use the name Gonny here when Gonzo appears on your DVD?

  • Gonny Shimura

    Gonzo is my real name. On my birth certificate. I think my parents were...well we won't go there. Gonny is just a nick name but it stuck since I was a kid.

  • tomregit

    Negativity? It's not negative to promulgate the fact that you have a childlike view of humanity but lacking lacking a child's innocence. The spooky music might be meaningful (scary) for a child but only detracts from any believability to an adult.

    Many of the people who frequent this website are well versed in logic and science and have not chosen to comment because, I suspect, your ideas are an unprovable crazy mashup of new age/christian/satanic/conspiracy that are unworthy of comment.

    "As a christian, I believe.....blah blah blah"
    As an atheist, I believe that may be (y)our biggest problem. Adam & Eve, Noah &the flood, satan, UFOs,angels (fallen and otherwise), hybrid race, Atlantis; what a laughable load of brown stuff! You left out Snow White, Goofy, and Santa.

  • Gonny Shimura

    "A child like view of humanity" I find that interesting. Are you suggesting that your atheistic view of humanity is more...moral? ethical? good? better? I'm not sure what you are suggesting there. And if that is what you are suggesting, are you ready to say there are objective moral values of which are independent and binding regardless of person, place or social construct?

    If you are well versed in logic and science then you would understand that both presuppose and rely on constants and quantities we find in the universe. It only extends so far as what we can understand and measure in our physical world. It should not and does not speak into any forms of philosophical and dare I say, spiritual, inquiry.

    As to your comment on belief, I would contend that every single person on this planet operates on beliefs. And by making comments like this one..."what a laughable load of brown stuff!" you are actually not being a very good scientist since you are closing off to all possible realities. I am not against science. Don't get me wrong. But I think there is a difference between experimental sciences and historic sciences. The latter is still predicated on conjecture and much of what is called uniformitarianism.

    So in any case, I am more than happy to extend the conversation and show that it's not entirely illogical to posit the existence of God, or the Christian God for that matter. Is it as concrete so called "proof" as your material sciences would need to confirm or deny a claim? That depends on presuppositions, but I often find that the rejection of God usually comes from the philosophical grounds and not necessarily any kind of "empirical" data, of which are mere pieces of information still being filtered through the mind of human beings.

  • relament

    Sorry, but your film is awful, Gonny Shimura. Human beings and animals certainly don't need help from silly, irrational "thinking" like yours.

  • Gonny Shimura

    please point to where my thinking is irrational? The Christian message is Love God and Love Others. Now you can not believe in God, but ultimately it's loving others. But Christianity says that the love we have for our fellow man is not our love, but God's love. It puts the human being in a posture of humbleness, forgiveness, patience, kindness, hope, etc. So what exactly of this is irrational?

    There are things Jesus taught which are principle some of the most profound concepts to mankind, and it's not the easiest thing to do, in fact they are impossible to achieve.

    There's a lot more I want to say but I would like to hear your response to my question.

  • hrabrimis

    Well this is my first reply on this site and i we been here for two years so you got my attention, but in a BAD way

  • Achems_Razor

    According to the comments about this doc now I have to try and watch, want to see how long I will last watching my beloved religee's in action, did someone say Hovind? already pissed off!

  • relament

    Christianity is a pretty bad example of love. I believe empathy is the ground upon which moral understanding appears, not lies, fairy tales, metaphysical threats, and worshiping gods(or worshiping anything, for that matter). Your mess of a film is just a propaganda piece for idiotic, mystical nonsense. Perhaps billions of people have been murdered throughout history, and it's nothing but insulting to listen to the pointless story of your fake superhero being murdered as some groundbreaking turning point in human history. Truly, Christians do "posture" about humbleness, forgiveness, etc., but it is only posturing. It's fake, just like your dreams of every free being in this world becoming one zombie of love.
    Nope, I'm all grown up now, and I'm certainly not going to watch your 2000 year old cartoon for the rest of my life.

  • Gonny Shimura

    On what basis are you determining your morality from? You say empathy. But empathy is relating to someone else's emotional status. You still have no foundation to which you base any kind of morality from. Someone could be empathetic towards Hitler, but does that make his actions right? Or is morality merely relative and subjective?

    Also, the acts of historical Christianity has no bearing on the truth claims. Stalin was an atheist and he killed millions of his own people. Does that mean atheism is wrong? No it does not. Again it points to the human condition.

    And by positing that people's posture of humbleness etc is fake, you are not only making sweeping generalizations, but you are saying you can read the intents of people. Are you really that awesome?

  • relament

    We're all free beings, free to choose. Morality is; how does a world of free beings get along together? Empathy is trying to understand other free beings' plight in the world through a careful review of your own experiences. Just understanding what freedom is, is a life-long endeavor, let alone understanding others' plight in the world. Morality is based on individual contexts or situations, it doesn't work as a system. It is subjective choices which become moral choices as one reaches out towards an understanding of others. It is something inside which believes in the outside of themselves.
    The history of Christianity has no excuses for itself. It's so terrible that you have compare it with genocides and mass murderers. Pretty pathetic. And I don't believe in a predetermined human condition to slaughter each other. I believe that free beings can change their mind.
    Clearly, in my experience, I've seen nothing but dishonesty when someone puts on the uniform of Christianity. I don't really give a damn about what dream-world intent the Christian has when I see the ridiculous results of their actions.
    And you don't have any business bringing up "sweeping generalizations". Remember, I watched your idiotic film.

  • Gonny Shimura

    Again you base your argumentation on presuppositions. I agree with you that we are free beings. But not only are there limits to our freedom (I can want to jump and fly to the center of the sun as much as I want to but it's not happening). but it's also predicated on the fact that we have the very ability to choose. This ability to choose is predicated on the rules, boundaries, constants and quantities of our material universe, but it is also predicated on the mind. If the mind is nothing more than a mush of bio-chemical processes, then not only is that information nothing more than bio-chemical processes, but every ounce of what any of us believe have no real significance expect for the delusions we apply it. If that's the case, then even what you say to me are nothing more than chemical reactions in the brain.

    I agree that understanding one another is a process. And I also agree that morality is not a system. How many times have I posted that what we deal with as a humanity is NOT a systematic issue? They are a collection of individual choices, of which when we put ourselves as the center, tend to compromise the fellow man. If morality are merely subjective decisions, then you cannot say that torturing babies for fun is wrong in all circumstances. In fact, it makes your next argument flawed.

    To point out the history of Christianity, which in actuality is more of the history of the Papacy and the Catholic Ecclesiastical system, and call it evil or wrong presupposes that there is a right. If there is a standard of which you are able to determine something as wrong or right, then you posit objective moral values which are independent and binding regardless of time, place, people etc. That moral standard would posit a rational entity which understands moral boundaries to have placed it there. But that's where you retreat and say there is no such thing. So if there is no rational entity of superior intellectual understanding providing the guiding boundaries of moral standards, then moral standards are a mere illusion. If moral standards are mere illusions than there is no concrete right. If there is no concrete right, there is no wrong. And so your argument about how wrong the history of Christianity is falls apart.

  • ProudinUS

    It's the branches of Christianity that are so destructive.It's a person or group of people taking sections out of the Bible or old scripture and fitting it into their way of life.I believe in God ,son, Bible, but I have also seen church goers step out of the pew at the end of service and go home and beat their kids, smoke their cigs, cuss, drink...you name it.
    It's these break-offs of Christianity and Hebrew text that cause wars and intolerance....nothing more. I believe a person sitting in their bath robe and slippers at the kitchen table, worshiping their God on a Sunday morning is more respectful to the Lord then someone who gets all dolled-up and puts on a show at Church.
    I tried watching this thing yesterday, but I had my headphones on and that music creeped me out by about the 6 or 7 min. Although I must say, I give ya credit for makin' a doc..cool.

  • relament

    You seriously think I can't say that torturing babies is wrong, because it doesn't fit into your puerile view of logical consistency? I watched two and a half hours of your bizarre thinking, and now I get the subtitles to it? Goodness! It doesn't even seem like you're speaking to me, rather you're just leaping from one idea to the next acting as though you've connected them. I mean, just look at this mess below:
    "If moral standards are mere illusions than there is no concrete right. If there is no concrete right, there is no wrong. And so your argument about how wrong the history of Christianity is falls apart."

    Are you on speed?

  • tomregit

    Are you suggesting that your atheistic view of humanity is more...moral? ethical? good? better?
    Yes.

    "It should not and does not speak into any forms of philosophical and dare I say, spiritual, inquiry."
    I have no belief whatsoever in spiritualism. Philosophy and science have walked lockstep with each other and been mirror images of each other. Yin and yang to use a spiritual term. I admire and respect both branches of human endeavour, but not spiritualism. As a grown man, your bead rattling and threats of damnation no longer impress or frighten me.

    I apologize for calling your "documentary" a load of brown stuff. I should have said what I meant and called it bullshit. In doing so, I do not close off all possibilities. However, I do reject your absurd, childlike, naive viewpoint concerning our human condition.

  • dewflirt

    IF there was such a thing as a God it probably spits out universes like a child blows bubbles and cares as little for each as the child does about one bubble. They come and go in the blink of an eye. No amount of crystal crunching, toad licking or bone scattering will make a difference. As I understand it the universe as we know it is just unbalanced enough to exist perfectly. It could as easily have been any other way and still exist and thereby still be thought of as perfect. For me that just means that sh1t happened and we happened as a progression of it, no rhyme or reason, nothing but astronomically good luck. Makes us all the more precious, we could easily not have happened at all. No need to worry about being thankful to a careless creator, just enjoy being alive ;)

  • Sakari Lehtonen

    A Lot of Fear in this Documentary. Some facts too, but a lot of Fear.

  • ProudinUS

    Alright Gonny,I tried watching it again , but man that d*m music scarces the holy ***t out of me! I'll watch it when my ol' lady's in here. The ***kin' anti-christ would be afraid of her! I looked in your name file there and saw the sight for Douglas Hamp. Do you think you can have him send me all his books for free please. I'm not going to pay of course. God's word isn't for sale right? It's free for who ever seeks it.
    So will you get them for me bud..thanks man. I KNEW you were a true man of God and not one of them traveling web salesman. Can you also have him send me $$ for my time of need. Well I was just seein' how he made some up-teen million $$ and I could really use some....thanks again man.

  • magarac

    And once again a huge load of crap.
    Would learn way more watching grass grow for 2 and a half hour.

  • nilvek

    the first few minutes of this film was enough to cause me to turn
    it off........how can anyone believe your preaching? jesus if such a
    person ever existed taught a few of his fellow Jews how to live
    but he did not teach us anything......

  • deltamary

    I started- got distracted- made toast, started again for10 or so minuted and got distracted again by the hungry cat-then mind wandered for a while-video was still running. Did not hear a word- Then it occurred to me - Don't watch this. so I stopped it and finished the comment. I am a Christian, know the Bible is the Word of G-D. I will not pitch my tent in the Devil's territory. Have a good day. Maranatha

  • ProudinUS

    I'm sure he will.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Lilith-Lavine/100003217937011 Lilith Lavine

    I maybe showing some ignorance here or maybe I just need something explained to me this is my question. "If Adam and Eve were the only humans living in the garden of Eden how do we know what the serpent said to her or what god said who was writing it down"?

  • Hammer2Fall

    Interestingly enough, Eve's age is never mentioned in the Bible (unlike Adam and many others) nor is Eve's death recorded unlike everyone else including Adam. Surely Eve Lives On! Now where did the sons of Adam and Eve find their wives.....

  • ProudinUS

    You still there?

  • dewflirt

    Possibilianism. Like it.

  • dewflirt

    Adams first wife was lurking in the undergrowth taking notes for her divorce lawyer ;)

  • http://twitter.com/panthera_f panthera f

    Well......I shouldn't vote for that Mormon Mitt Romney, because he allready believes he becomes God after he dies.

  • http://www.facebook.com/smith.gerald1966 Gerald Smith

    The wives are called Sisters.

  • Gonny Shimura

    you are so kind :)

  • Gonny Shimura

    As with most text, they are written after a certain amount of time handed down orally or by tradition. It is believed that the book of Genesis was written down by Moses. The difference is that these text are "inspired" by God. In other words, God Himself revealed what we need to know. If you are a strict materialist, such claims are absurd and I understand and can relate if you think that. But you can't apply modern standards of recording history to ancient text. It's just impossible and quite frankly not fair. But something to consider in all of it are the numerous flood myths there are all around the world. Over 600 ancient tribes have a sort of flood myth concerning a few that were saved, from which all humanity descends from. So while the geologists might say one thing, the people that lived much closer to that time recorded something entirely different. Take it with a grain of salt and do your own study and come to your own conclusions.

    I will say though, that the "serpent" in the garden is a poor translation of the text. In actuality, the hebrew taken by its adjective form is "a shining one". Check out the work of Dr. Mike Heiser, an ancient language scholar for more on that. It's fascinating. He also wrote on the divine council, something a lot of bible believing Christians don't even understand about what is written in the OT.

  • Hammer2Fall

    or Mother!

  • schnorkies

    This is true, however, if ya read the entire Book.....you will find the hope..and the love.

    I've read the end of the book....and we...and God WIN !!!

    Why d'ya think you need to be "saved"?

  • Guest

    what about knitting fog? wasn't that cute too. You would have said stitching fog.
    az

  • Guest

    A lot can be revealed by watching grass grow for 2 hours. There is a tribe called the Lobi in Burkina Faso where the boys go to the woods for the passing of manhood. Among other rites, they have to sit by themself in the forest and watch a tree until the tree talks to them, sometimes for nights and days. Apparently it beats all the fears out of you.
    az

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Terry-Beaton/100000940529089 Terry Beaton

    It's interesting what some people believe. But it's never very enlightening to have it all explained. That usually ruins it for me. I prefer that their magic beliefs remain a mystery. Fallen Angels and women having sex? Wow! I never would have thought! Hahaha, did you watch the whole thing!

  • dewflirt

    Knitting is fine, knitting with fog might be a task set by Rumplestiltskin. Would love to see the result laid out on the ground one morning :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/ZuluXtreme-Richards-Bay/100002853893069 ZuluXtreme Richards Bay

    I watched the entire 'doc' and there was stacks that I found interesting and informative but as can be expected there was also stacks that I was able to reject as nonsense... Nevertheless it's important to expose oneself to as much opinion/information as possible... Knowledge takes time to accumulate, it's important to expose your own views to being tested and even more important to keep an open mind.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jayarathne.abeydeera Jayarathne Abeydeera

    Ignorant people never raise such questions publicly. Ignorant people keep their mouths shut and worship big lies.

  • jhislope

    Man, I want to thank you for that clip. I watch all of these type docs with an open mind and a grain of salt. I have to admit, this was the first one I saw where I saw so much focus on the bible and christianity. I watched it and found it interesting...But, I got so much out of the clip you posted. It was worth the two hour doc to discover it! Thanks again!

    James

  • jhislope

    just don't try to fall asleep to it!!! I watched it with a little pot and booze...dozed off.. then woke up in very creepy moments throughout... Scenes of exorcisms and ****!

  • jhislope

    this was a different take for me... I found it interesting... but you're right... a lot of fear.

  • jhislope

    Well for whatever, whoever, however I got here....I'm grateful for it! Like you, I'm just glad to be alive! ha

  • jhislope

    You went waaay out of your way to sound "smart", only to include your true desire to use "bullshit". Just sayin'.

  • Belinda Frank

    This is a very extensive documentary on yet again another method of Bible thumping. Yes I capitalized the word Bible out of respect to those of you who would take offense if I had not. I respect all views, beliefs, and perceptions of others. However, once again a woman, Alice Bailey, is seen as the devil incarnate. Did you notice all women in this video were of negative value? When he said the New Age was about killing off God, I have to disagree. I am a child of the New Age, even at 63 years of age and it is not in any way about the end or death of our Creator. So let me say here and now, the New Age is here and it is going to be a Golden Age for all humankind. Wake up, become aware of Who You Are. One more thing, at the end he said how the apostles were given visions, well isn't that what channeling is? Namaste

  • vvindred

    hahaha thats exactly what happened 2 me :))

  • vvindred

    i have a problem believing the bible, and before you call me a satanist atheist etc, take a look at the mainstream history of the roman empire and the ecumenical synods where the bible was edited or re-written by the most evil , corrupt and greedy men...oh and you should know i'm a christian :D

  • 1beyourowndoc2

    I could not go on with this video past about 40 minutes..I have studied ancient occult practice from Manley, Blatvatski, and many others and never was able to put this line of thought together..This documentary is bible thumping at it's best. Sorry, you lost me, Bill Tallmon

  • NaoCat

    All emotion about personal lives aside, the "New World Order" is a good thing and here is why:

    1 People cannot live without order period. It is the conflict between the rulers that create misery everyone is so afraid of. Power struggle is never a good thing for those that do not have power, hence if there is a new global order there wont be separate powers to compete.

    2 Think of medieval japan Sengoku era (the warring states) or anywhere else for that matter. Only under one ruler can there be peace. Granted they all failed BUT at this day and age it might just work because there is no where to expand to after this is over (Earth I mean)

    3 Police state is nothing new and most certainly not a bad thing. Face it society will rebel and for minimum or 3 generations (until everyone has forgotten about the old ways) there needs to be a force to keep it under control.

    After that people will just live their lives normally without someone complaining how cool it was back in the day when you could shout your opinions fight over differences (ie skin color, ethnicity, heritage and favorite form of government)

  • oilchng

    Jesse Ventura said it best .... " organised religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers "
    possibly this doc needs re-post in the comedy section .... or maybe ...just maybe ... a new category could be created.... like , " You Gotta Be Kidding Me " or perhaps " Brainwashing "
    anyway thanks TDF . I'm positive the sheeple will enjoy this

  • tomregit

    Sorry. I wasn't trying to sound smart, but after being sort of called out on calling his doc "brown stuff" I went the other direction and called a spade a spade. (My father called a spade a fukin' shovel). Not trying to be smart, just me. Point taken and accepted.

    Edit: Though I vehemently disagree with Gonny, I respect his calm, well said and thought out replies. I simply totally disagree.

  • Gonny Shimura

    If my message was organized religion, it would be one thing...but it's not.

  • Gonny Shimura

    response to your pro NWO statements

    1. The illusion will be that all is well and peace has been attained. But under one rulership, if that one entity goes Hitler, or Stalin, then the long plans for the NWO of reducing the world population down to 500 million "in balance with nature" becomes possible. You're right that people cannot live without order. In particular reference to my film, I am not suggesting anarchy or totalitarian dictatorship under some eccumenical governance. Far from it. I am actually not suggesting any kind of "better" system. The film is simply a warning that states, an ancient prophetic text which has been accurate for a lot of what we see unfolding in the world predicted this single world government, AND that it would bring peace, but that it would be a false peace.

    2. Yes under one rulership, there can be peace. But there can also be mass destruction. Once everyone is locked into a global grid, the type being promoted by the Technocratic ideologies that began in the 1930's, as well as the neo-marxist mechanical society being promoted by Zeigeist moving forward is in place, then it's either do or die. In other words, submit to the system or lose everything...(which we are pretty much in today, but we have the option to opt out if we choose)

    3. Yes, a police state is nothing new. But it becomes an issue under the kind of alleged "threat" we are being told through mass media and politics. Think about what America has faced in the last ten years, "War on terror" "War on drugs" "Weapons of Mass Desctruction" etc. Although these are real threats, they have been the stepping tool for our trustworthy government leaders to slowly take away our rights in this country. The Constitution is pretty much a door matt at this point, and it doesn't seem like things are going to get better any time soon. Once the military forces turns on it's own citizens and we see martial law, all bets are off and it goes from "safety" to "lock down."

    The bottom line is that I am not some right wing, republican, baptist, fundamental religious nutcase. I see what's happening in the world and I found it profound that such ancient literature would not only address it several thousands of years ago, but warn us of it and be accurate on several other key events and factors of history. Now either you're telling me that these shephers running around 2000 years ago just got really lucky about what we would face as a culture and society, or something else is going on.

    BTW, happy Easter, I mean Ishtar...

  • momo_kizzzz

    I will be plain and simple : This documentary lost me, you can not expect me to be objective about this documentary because it has a subjective influence RELIGION this is just CHRISTIAN PROPAGANDA.

    I am seeing a lott of these Documanteries lately with CHRISTIAN PROPAGANDA to them.

    Is it so hard to stay OBJECTIVE when you deal with subjects as Ufo's, Satan etc. ?

    The world is so cliché I can most of the time expect documanteries with these subjects to have some religous motive to them.

  • waxman68

    Agreed, This kind of thinking is implying that "ignorance is bliss". We fell from grace when we "ate of the tree of knowledge..." so the problem is that we know too much- keep us stupid and we will be "perfect"- doesnt that sound just like the NWO philosophy? I guess hipocracy is alive and well in doccies like this!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=572341703 Aidan Smith

    LOL... thats propoganda... anyone that thinks thats a documentary are fools. Take it down!

  • oilchng

    It is truly upsetting to wake up and discover that one has been a troll in disguise . I am not a hater or a troll , and will have my breathalizer interface recalibrated to filter my own stupidity . I apologize to the esteemed community for any offense . Duly noting that docs I don't like and sheeple all have a place and time in the universe . Forgiveness ... anyone ????
    TDF is the best !!!! SCIENCE rules !!!!!! DEATH to ignorance !!!!!
    PS- Gonzo- your doc is a million times better than the one I haven't made. Please make another one . Will try my best to watch it too .

  • Earthwinger

    Prophesies coming to pass...seriously?

    When I go to see a play being performed, I don't squeee loudly and run around shouting the sky's falling, because Shakespeare's prophesies are coming to pass. Likewise, the bible is just a story, all the world's a stage, and politicians are the lead characters. Give them a good enough script, and it should hardly be surprising that they milk it for all it's worth and play to the peanut gallery. ;)

  • His Forever

    I think I'd just freakin' lie in that circumstance and say, "Ah, yeah, that tree was the most talkative I've ever seen. Yup! Lucky I was only out there in the lion-infested bush for 15 mintues! Whew! Lucky me!"

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    my thanks to all these nefarious posters who have confirmed to me that the information in this doc is evident in our society today

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    I make this comment only because i have both photographic and video-graphic evidence of other dimensional entities. just the mere mention of this evidence to individuals who chose not to entertain the idea of other dimensional entities will cause their cerebrum to revert to the primate state in order to overcome their sense of delusion. Mankind has been brainwashed to worship Caesar. This doc is very clear and literal and that flies in the face of those who have put their trust in the goodness of mankind .it is evident that the human race is a scourge on this planet. we are no longer symbiotic with the natural world. It is very unlikely that we could repair the damage since we are the rotten fruit on the planet. if there is to be some kind of repair done to this broken organism then it must come from outside....///

  • over the edge

    @mark
    ok show this evidence

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    I appreciate your interest, unfortunately this is a not a good forum on which to share my evidence. i am happy to indulge you if you are truly interested thru a less public medium. i have a link online and many artifacts stored in my own which I prefer not to share here due to the nature of the subject may conjure hostility .i have nothing to sell here and if you are sincere then let me know of another venue more private in which to indulge you with my anomalous discoveries.

  • Earthwinger

    Mark, I'm assuming that I fall into your category of “nefarious poster” but I find it curious that you assume just because the naysayers in this thread don't agree with the thrust of the film, they're somehow content with the state of the world.

    Personally, I share a lot of the concerns expressed, the difference is though, I don't attribute any of it to ancient prophesies, aliens, or biblical scripture. I see the causes as being all too human. What's more, I doubt that films like this do anything more than reinforce the power of the elites, because these sorts of narratives just generate unwarranted fear in the gullible mind, and that's the first thing that we should be fighting, if ever we're to improve our lot.

    I'm also curious about this video and photographic evidence. Perhaps you could upload it somewhere, and share the link with us. :)

  • docoman

    Mate, if you have a link or can upload such evidence, there are many that would have sincere interest. You may still receive some hostility from some posters, so what, that's no different to any other post.
    If you have something interesting to show, I'd be one that would be interested to see.

  • facelikethesun

    Myself and others who talk about the subjects I discuss in the film get labelled fear mongers quite often. But in reality, it's not pushing fear. It's just pushing truth. I didn't make any of this stuff up. We all know about the strange rituals going on at Bohemian Grove. Those things should be alarming to everyone regardless of worldview.

    As a matter of fact, the Biblical perspective is that we do not have a spirit of fear but a spirit of power, love and a sound mind. Humanity blaming other humans as we so often do only perpetuates the cycle of hate. But love thy enemy, love thy neighbor, etc will disarm humanities animosity towards each other. Unfortunately, the words of Jesus as well as what he stands for and why he came to earth are overlooked and ignored by believers and non believers alike. In fact, no human being has ever lived up to the standards put forth by Jesus, except one.

  • over the edge

    @mark
    yes i am skeptical at the least and outright don't believe you at the most. holding this evidence to the light of those that have different views and maybe higher thresholds of what is evidence is the only way to go about this. if either yourself or the evidence cannot stand up to scrutiny then it is not very sturdy evidence at all. i will not be hostile towards you but i cannot promise that for others. but if others are hostile ignore them and if it goes too far (threats or otherwise) i trust the site to either moderate or remove said comments. if you choose not to share that is your right. and if i choose not to believe you based on claims alone that is my right. but claims of this magnitude require evidence of at least equal magnitude.

  • facelikethesun

    Mark

    Your not the only one. I had someone email me a photo from the Bastian tunnels in the UK. The photos are without a doubt disturbing. The skeptics will always remain skeptical, and rightfully so. I totally understand why. But at a certain point even the skeptics have to at least wonder. And is it not strange that such phenomenon have been recorded throughout human history? Is that a flaw in the evolutionary development of our brains? Or is something else going on?

  • facelikethesun

    The question becomes what you accept as evidence. There are many photos and videos of such types on evidence. A great example is the UFO phenomenon. You have NASA footage, astronauts, and high ranking military officials as well as presidents and others who have witnessed the phenomenon. Now are there hoaxes out there? Absolutely. Without a doubt. But what would it take the skeptic to believe the phenomenon is real? It's different for everyone. I know a man who was very much atheist but changed his entire world view after allegedly coming face to face with such entities.

    So upon investigating the topic, I found that the phenomenon is real but what we believe it to be is something else.

  • ProudinUS

    I would..Mark. I want to know about everything you have to share. Got any books for sale?

  • Achems_Razor

    Well yeah mark, this a very good site to share any and all such info that you have, We will monitor and promise that no one will be hostile towards you as long as your info meets the "comment policy" above and relates to the doc in question, so let it roll!

  • over the edge

    @facelikethesun
    what would it take for me? first the quality of any pictures or video would have to be fairly high since most cameras today are at least very good quality. next not only would there be no natural explanation as an option also saying something is unexplained or unknown is not evidence. it would have to stand up to the scrutiny of skeptics convincing those that already believe is not good evidence. eyewitness testimony alone will not convince me sorry but i do not trust someones say so unless they earn it. multiple clear videos from unrelated sources that have been studied and tested and agreed to by experts in video review, relevant scientists and any other relevant field. and agreed to by the vast majority of their peers. a majority of acceptance by the scientific community is a must. their methods have consistently proven to be the most reliable way to ascertain the truth.

  • Achems_Razor

    Okay, watched your link, everything all black with maybe a firefly meandering about? What?

  • facelikethesun

    You're standards are very much in line with all skeptics and is totally understandable. But there are two questions I have. One, because such phenomenon such as ghosts or UFOs or anything considered "spiritual" don't necessarily reflect or manifest as physical or material constructs, how would the material sciences, which deals only with things which can be measured, weighed, etc assess and come to any concrete conclusions about things which can't be measured weighed etc? Second, if you had a profound personal experience of coming in direct contact with alleged spiritual entities, would you consider yourself to be losing your mind before you even entertain the possibility that such beings exist? I ask this directly to you since I know it will vary from person to person. I also understand its a hypothetical.

  • over the edge

    @facelikethesun
    first off i find it strange that someone else made a claim and i am the one who gets asked the questions. but i will answer. if i had an experience of this nature i would first have to ask myself if i was impaired in some respect (tired,stress,drunk,high,sick) next is there a more reasonable and at least equally justifiable answer, then i would get myself checked out by a doctor to make sure there isn't a medical explanation for this event. if all these things among some others were done and i still cannot explain the phenomenon i would not share it. until i have proof sharing such an experience would be counterproductive. anybody who believes me without proof cannot help my claim and diluting down the pool with another claim without evidence only pushes these claims further away from acceptance. to answer your other question if these experiences are "spiritual" and cannot be measured by science. how can they be photographed and videotaped? they would have to exist in the physical world for us to capture an image wouldn't they? but if they cannot be measured at all then i will reiterate my previous statement. why make a claim that cannot be backed up? why preach to the choir? why muddy the waters of something you obviously believe be adding another unfounded claim to the heap and possibly discredited a possibly provable claim by relation?

  • over the edge

    @mark
    okay i went to the link. i am sorry that is not proof of anything. i have no idea what that was. you are welcome to believe anything you want but that video is not going to sway anyone's opinion.

  • Earthwinger

    I'm sorry Mark, but that proves nothing. It's not helped by there being no frame of reference at all, and any ambient sounds have been covered by the musical soundtrack. It could be just about anything, but I see no reason to attribute it any sort of supernatural phenomena.

  • AbdelZ

    Hi :

    I did find time enough to watch the whole video : interesting ,to some extent at least ,minus the christian hokus pokus in regard to Jesus we believe in , among other things .

    Jesus as just a jewish prophet -human with no father who was sent by Allah to jews only in the same fashion that Adam had neither a father nor a mother .

    Meaning that the same God who created Adam & Eve without father or mother is the same one who created Jesus with no father from his virgin mother Marry .

    Jesus we believe in as a prophet of Allah , we respect , .....love ....as we love his virgin mother & respect her ...

    Jesus that neither was dead nor crucified but rose to heaven by the might of Allah .

    That christian silly trinity is a myth indeed .

    Jeus will come back on earth indeed as the true Messiah , he will kill the anti-christ , rule the world from Jerusalem & restore the glory of ....islam , ironically enough : that will be the real end of history , not that of Fukuyama haha.

    There is in fact only 1 religion : that of all prophets ,from Adam to Mohammed as the last prophet , including that of Jesus , Moses .......Islam as the last testament had not only confirmed & completed all previous messages of all previous prophets we believe in , but islam had also replaced them : that's called evolution of religion with islam as the last perfect form of , so .

    All previous prophets were sent by Allah to their own peoples only though , except Mohammed who was sent by Allah to all mankind thus .

    In short :

    Christians would be amazed at the fact that we , muslims , do share many things with them , despite the above mentioned islamic facts i cited , as some of them were displayed in this above mentioned video , it would take too much time to talk about , so

  • AbdelZ

    That so-called new world order , all those secret societies , satanic cults ......the classical struggle between good & evil .....do explain what's going on in the world today , to some extent at least : evil is the temporary winner wordlwide today though .

    Evil will be defeated for good only when Jesus ,we believe in; will come back on earth ,so : that will be the real end of history , not that of that silly secular liberal Fukuyama .

    Humanity gotta wake up before it's too late indeed

  • AbdelZ

    It takes much more than reason to apprehend the supernatural or metaphysical , the latters that do exist .

    Intuition for example is a higher form of intellect , to mention just that fact .

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_YCG26L3M7SVIXE7I3YSIFEKHDQ Daniel

    dang last night I was listening to this as I dozed off, and I woke up in the dark to the screaming possession somewhere in the middle. I was so scared I couldn't fall back asleep -__-, but then I got tired enough and zzzz....finish the rest later.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    thank you for your perfectly useless reply. there is nothing to be proved and there is no reference as this was just two guys getting drunk in the park and we set the camera up where there would be no light source to interfere with he camera. i do have the originals with the sound track. If you were to see all the other data you might think differently.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    sorry i missed the part were i said i was trying to sway someone.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    i suspect that if they flew right in your face and said howdy doody your response would be similar. sorry i have nothing to prove here this was provided only for those who have open minds.

  • Earthwinger

    Is this the same Mark that was worried he'd get hostile replies on this site.......classy! :D

  • Achems_Razor

    @mark:

    Two drunks guys? Now it makes sense, all that I saw was two little lights flittering around for a nano sec. Maybe they were flittering fairies?

    And I am being as civil as you are to me and others, like begets like.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    i am sorry but i was not aware that you have the ability to determine what is supernatural and what is not. my apologies.

  • Earthwinger

    No need to apologise for that, Mark, I never made any such claim. All I'm doing is trying look at the evidence as rationally as possible.

    I'm curious.....you mentioned earlier that you have better evidence that would be harder to contest, so why is it you chose to post the less convincing evidence?

  • ProudinUS

    Can I have a book for free?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    fair enough. i get it you dont like my video, maybe someone else does.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    because i am not trying to convince anyone of anything. i am just sharing something that i found interesting and hard to explain thats it.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    also this particular footage was not posted by me but i was present when it was recorded. i dont have anything else online at this time which i would allow public access to.

  • ProudinUS

    Also can I buy....what you know?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    this is a discussion that would have to take place off line. i have no intentions of selling this to anyone unless the govt is interested.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    you have completely convinced me.

    a dark screen with some red and white lights in the background....SPIRITS!

    what else COULD it be? clearly spirits are the most obvious answer.

    and plus the people who recorded it were two drunk guys in a park, what more proof could you ask for?

  • over the edge

    @mark
    if you weren't trying to sway an opinion ,expose your evidence to scrutiny or give new evidence why bring it up? that is kind of the point of threads like this. you know watch the doc ,share evidence and opinion and maybe learn something, or were you only interested in discussing with like minded people?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    and would this be because you know what a spirit looks or acts like ? or is it because you can prove they do not exist

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    you have made your point. clearly this type of video does not interest you.

  • ProudinUS

    Hello, I'm ProudinUS and I'm from the gov....show me.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    maybe were you are from but in ny in mid winter there are no fireflies that i have seen anyway.

  • Mantid

    The title of this documentary fits it perfectly.It is very deceiving.

  • ProudinUS

    Come on Mark!...I just want to know!

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    no it would be because im a skeptical, rational, logical, thinking person.

  • http://www.facebook.com/varacuda Shwan Jaff

    Ho ever made this documentary is st*pid becouse this theory is based on youtube fiction. It is sodu sience.There is no fact backing it up. There is alot of hores **** sayd on this documentary to make ur brain even more st*pid. If this thory was true, why is God so ******* croul to give us humen such a unfare life to live. We are even born in this 3 D reality and to reject it is only to hate God more. It is his ****** creation and why dont he, she it or what ever **** it is,, come here and live life as we do and let se how tuogh he is then. Maby God is chicken ****, ho knows. If this is true, it just dosent make sence with reality we live in. We find ower self in this 3 D reality world and it reprecent saten, or lucifer or what ever **** his name is. How unfare is God then to throue us in licifers worId. What figthing chance do we have at all then. I can agree in certen levels, that yes the Christians will in the end get blame becouse the religion represent a figth aginest life as how it is. We all have learn throue history that there is no othre religion ho has plegd more blod over ower world to be in power as Chritian religion. In the end it all comes to every each individual to change to the better. The person ho made this documentary seem to be more scared of the reality that he/ she dosen not understand and uses bunch of hores****t youtube fiction to generate more feer to scar people. Yes I am one of thous open minded people and even as I am open, I do not swollow **** becouse somone say so. After all there was a time when we thougth earth was flat. What the **** do we know. We have resently open dores throue tecnology, sience and religion. We know what we know and the rest is history.

  • Guest

    well, in Burkina Faso there are no lions in the wild, quite a few snakes though.
    az

  • Guest

    Were you the one Mark was filming in the dark with two little lights attached to your flapping ears? Bad bunny dancing on park lamp post at night!
    az

  • dewflirt

    I confess, it was me. Not my ears though;)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/334NAPKK2SAYFT4PN5B7ZYJKLY BernieT

    anyone who doesn't believe we are fighting a spiritual battle is either evil themselves or are just plain ignorant. I think this film puts everything that exists in perfect perspective and nails down everything that is happening right now and what is coming. I feel sorry for anyone who doesn't believe this film , as you are in for a very long miserable, sorry ride . God bless us all and we await His coming to free us from all the sorry state of affairs that satan has brought upon us.

  • Virginia Rebecca

    Thank you for posting this video. Nothing in this video surprised or shocked me. I have been watching the dumbing down of society including massive changes to Canadian law since the 70's taking away freedoms by removing responsibility and ethics, creating chaos and entitlements. Not until I learned about the illuminati did I realize it was not a coincidence but part of plan to remove man's mental faculties in order to ease the brainwashing process in order to attain the end goal.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2K5JO3ZZEDAAIK7NOAUDZO7G54 mark

    yes its sad because none of them will get it until they are standing in line to get their mark which will decide if they get to eat or not. by then it will be too late and the only other choice will be confinement.

  • SFXkilla

    Im sorry Im sorry I had to stop watching and comment.(12:00) Where are they going to get satan's DNA? LMAO!!!!!

  • SFXkilla

    thank you for including this documentory but it was rather silly. Im am prepared to listen to any rational line of reasoning on some farout topics but this degraded into superstitious nonsence pretty fast

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Keighin/100000263827160 Jason Keighin

    here here!!!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Keighin/100000263827160 Jason Keighin

    dude,you say aliens are an invention of the new world order,brother you do know everything that is in the bible was,censored by a bunch of rich guys at the council of nicea. Nice for you to go through the trouble of making this little documentary,but its a waste of time.I only watched it so i could give an educated counterarguement to what,the mass of sheeple blind believers,have to reference. The bible was written and censored by the new world order of their day,y cant we read jesus' gospel,whut was he doing between 13-30 years of age,c'mon man. Use your brain,critical thinking,is the first of "gods" gifts,and usually the first that is crushed and thrown away...Religion is the number one cause of bloodshed in the entire history of this planet...get a clue..please.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Keighin/100000263827160 Jason Keighin

    from the bush family bloodline,ahahahahahaha

  • http://twitter.com/Exstinctum Amun-Ra

    Finally someone decided to put it all together in one huge pile. Was waiting for this a long time. Way to go by distracting people from thinking about actual issues and discrediting actually anyone who is criticizing and challenging common perceptions of things like modern day imperialism and economical exploitation.

  • thedilema

    ineresting doc.. thank you for opening my mind and realizing that I want nothing to do with all of this and the new world order or whatever. it may very well be a fantasy or an escape because your really afraid of what is. I don't like the misleading and narrow approach to this doc, and the influential nature towards religious tendencies. Let people decide for themselves, without all the rules and regulations of religion. I'm sure jesus had no intention of making everything so twisted and misinturpretated, simplicity may be the key, after all its the present that counts, In my opinion its better to observe this and not get sucked in. It starts with the person themselves, in reality everyone dies and there most likely will not be a big mad beast running around trying to shout and convince people to follow him, if there is ill make it my business to smash a bottle over my own head, and then his head just to show that I'm hard and tell him to cop on to life. I also think the film maker in this doc is doing far to much and should be doing less and maybe smoke some herb.
    Don't mean to offend anyone, just had to get that off my chest, this doc made me think too much and I didn't like it.

  • thedilema

    thats it I'm becoming a rasta

  • AbdelZ

    What are you talking about ? Did you at least read what i said ? Where is my comment you replied to anyway ?

  • mustbefree

    Hey ya bloodclat, am already a rasta. i must be cos i said bloodclat.

  • AdamDocherty

    wow they quickly debunked Zeitgeist with a few lines of scripture, and from the old testament too! Gotta love the old testament NOT "God will kill the Egyptian children to show that he puts "a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." - Good way to prove a point, kill all the children AMEN... but no! the Christians say it is the new testament, god saw the evil of his ways and now all is lovey dovey lalala

    What is god spelt backwards? It's dog and that name is not even deserving of one that would do such hideous things. Well anyway, they say Satan is the great deceiver and I would say that it is more likely that Satan is the god Christians are worshipping and the one they call Satan is the real god - would that not be the greatest deception of all? Maybe the secret societies are not evil, maybe they are a bit smarter than foolish zealots that believe in fairytales.

    This documentary is utter rubbish. The real enemy are the greedy bankers and money horders, they are the ones that are deserving of scorn, not imaginary satan or some old boys getting together to talk about egypt and ****.

    Evil is a man (insert vatican, church, synagogue, mosque, etc, etc) sitting on a pile of money that he can never hope to spend in his lifetime while elsewhere a child slowly starves to death while his distraught mother looks on unable to do a thing about it. That is evil, pure ******* simple.

    I look forward to becoming godlike when the technology allows, I look forward to living forever (or as long as I want), I look forward to exploring the cosmos and most of all I look forward to being master of my environment, building my own reality and not having to put up with this ****** one that god (or whatever) put me in.

    Humbug!

  • http://www.facebook.com/varacuda Shwan Jaff

    well there are several documentarys out there putting it all togather, and I bleav this one dose not explan it well at all. As I wached throue it I feelt more and more provoket heering Jesus is the one and only pas and everything els we humens are is evil. I mean what about humen values!! What I also find disturbing and wrong throue this documentary is that Christian religon is reprecented throue feer. No religion should be reprecented throue feer. After all it is a good story but it is a shame to manifactur any religon like this documentary dose.

  • http://www.facebook.com/varacuda Shwan Jaff

    Besides does anyone know that satanisem is a respected religon in Iraq. After all the ideology of lucifer is only part of humen reality undertstanding. Why should it not be respected as any other religion. Is not luciferian ideology part of Gods creation!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TG5MIAGOCBUDZXCYNAKF32ORRA ShadowMan

    Got it wrong ...”One abducted person (abduction by aliens) presented a question to the aliens..."Do you believe in God, which is in the image of man?" The alien replied in English with a confused look..."The Universe is God" "We don't understand why you think God is in human form, we are confused." Makes a whole lot of sense to me, does that answer."...ET has come here, or been here for millennia’s, and have been evolving us ever since, we could have been created by ET, (and I strongly believe so, for many reasons) just like the past civilizations that have come and gone on this planet, the Bigfoot creature was a failure and we were created after it!

    The secret school etc, is just a band of people who have made a secret circle and carried it on up to this day, nothing more, perhaps long ago, someone made a deal with ET, (when abducted) and was given advanced technology, thinking etc. Anyway, what you see in the skies is REAL alien and NOT demons! Anyone can say anything is a demon! There are tons more to say, but I’m off to bed now, it’s 1am, good night folks.

  • oilchng

    has anyone read any of the comments on youtube about this vid ????
    the sheeple are kinda .... sorta....very, very ... scary .

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/N2ZV3HYHBTONTQ5JWZIUTJ5F3I KingHockeyMan

    Yo ShadowMan, ..every1 has an opinion. An opinion is like a butthole, we all got 1. Unless you know that for sure. Just say, ..U beleive they are NOT demons but real aleins. That "NOT" implies you KNOW. You do NOT KNOW, neither does any1. I for 1 "beleive" they are demons in the flesh. Until we meet 'them' face to face, no-1 knows jack-diddly-cheot. Have a good sleep, ....PEACE OUT!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/N2ZV3HYHBTONTQ5JWZIUTJ5F3I KingHockeyMan

    Its all too freaky to me.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ENBXLEQYIQSTJ6ELE5TEDUVR5U Just

    I had to stop watching this. I am interested in secret societies and such, but this documentary is really trying to make a stretch. This whole satan business seems like silliness to me, and I agree that so-called "christians" seem to be worshipping satan, not that I literally believe in satan. There are definitely a lot of problems with our society, but it's not because of satan. The so-called christians seem to be causing the problems.

    New Age philosophies and beliefs outside of christianity are not the enemy. That is just someone's fear getting the better of him or her.

  • http://twitter.com/perp33 Keith Sherk

    After a few minutes watching I thought it was interesting. So I downloaded it to watch later at home in comfort. Was I ever disappointed. Although I agree the New World Order is doing terrible things to society relating the concept of Karma to Satan unveiled to me the delusions of the author and instantly categorized this doc as christian propaganda.

  • facelikethesun

    Again, I am open to criticism of the film and its premise. But I will point out a couple of faulty arguments against Christianity or any belief or worldview that is so common not just in this thread, but in general. That is the Informal Fallacy: "an argument that may in itself be valid, but does not address the issue in question"

    Comments like, "look how many people Christianity has killed, therefore, Christianity is wrong." fall under this category. If I say, Stalin was an atheist and killed millions of his own people, therefore, atheism is wrong...would that be a formal line of logic? I don't think so.

    Any comments regarding the corruption of the scriptures we have in the bible are also not being intellectually honest. We have the records of what was discussed at these meeting in the first few centuries A.D. They never changed actual scriptures, however, they did come up with doctrine surrounding various issues. Do corruptions occur? Yes. But you have to define what that means.

  • facelikethesun

    So because I connected the lies in the garden to Karma, you are calling me delusional? Please elaborate.

  • facelikethesun

    Human values? Tell me, what human has lived out "values" to the fullest? And how are you even capable of stating what human values are and able to determine them as objective unless you believe in God? Forgive me, I don't know if you believe in God or not based on your comment. But in any case, I do not promote fear. I simply point out what is happening in our society. The bottom line, it's a human heart issue, what Christianity calls a sin issue. NOT a systematic issue, religion, government, economy, etc are all manifestations of the evil that is in the human heart. That's why I preach Jesus. He IS the only Way, the Truth and the Life.

  • facelikethesun

    I only used one example of debunking Zeigeist because there are PLENTY of people who have debunked the Zeigeist claims of terribly faulty scholarship.

    It seems you support the secret societies and their goals for human depopulation, totalitarian lock down, poison in food, water etc. If that's the case, more power to you.

    I don't disagree with you that people with piles of money are a source of our problem. BUT it's NOT the PEOPLE themselves who are the problem. It's a human heart issue. What Christianity calls sin. If you were sitting on the same pile of money, there are no guarantees that you would give all of it away for the betterment of the world population.

    And the mere fact that you desire a transhuman agenda goes to show how little you might value the human being. You desire to live forever but are blinded to the fact that just being able to live forever in a physical way like we do now in no way has any guarantee of joy, or happiness, or fulfillment. In fact, it could be that you ARE creating your own reality of hell for yourself!

  • Stepheth

    Yeah, that was my thought exactly at that point. Especially because later they say demons have no physical manifestations. I'd just like that bit explained.

  • AdamDocherty

    Thank you for the confirmation of your ignorance. You would have made a great Inquisitor back in the day :)

  • Radisha

    Are there any documentaries about the array of supposed Utopias drawn up by humans (Plato, More, Bacon, Marx, etc) over the centuries and their application?

    Information about Acts of plagiarism would be useful.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jason-Keighin/100000263827160 Jason Keighin

    no... dammit my big reply was to the video itself not you sir,my reply to you was,...here here..sorry,good abdelz ,bad documentary narrator...damn computers..lol no, i am for your comment....against whut this sheep,was trying to convince people,in this "documentary"..most of the bible is heresay,and therefore cannot be proven

  • http://twitter.com/VeezaTheDreama vic

    @facelike ... first off i want to commend you for a great documentary, docs like this are a rarity on here, i got into it with almost everyone on here when i posted my views on a documentary on here called "d.m bennet truth seeker" At first i just wanted to show folks what i thought and tried to explain how easy it is to buy into deception. The editor of the site himself got involved to strike down what i said and i put him on blast for only postin videos that back up the agenda and non that show the flip side of the coin. To me that went against EVERYTHING this site is supposed to be about because we all come here to learn.

    Learn, that is.. only if you agree with what i call "hyper logic" a frame of mind that only seeks to question, never latching on to one complete definitive view and asking questions of questions.. leading to chaos. Be clear that i am not sitting here saying i am the most pious person but i do believe... if you spend enough time researchin this stuff the only conclusion you can draw is that all of these things are tied to each other. If you are like me , you research to the very top and there was always that question "whos at the top?" who do they serve? whats the purpose of making all this money and implementing this frame work? who would want that...? and the only logical answer is something that most ppl on here think is not logical... lucifer.

    If you really look at it the plan is perfect, only god would be able to execute a plan better, it is seriously beyond the scope of many who think they are so "smart". To me its what i call "so smart that you are dumb" because to them only the mind of man is right I love science.. but if i can believe that sea animals came out of the water and magically morphed into all other land races, why cant i believe that there is a god ?If you go see the argument i had on that other doc youll get a preview of how it will be for christians in the "new age".. its actually a lil creepy..

    Thanks again for the documentary....it is sorely needed... i appreciate docs like the truth seeker... but the flipside of the coin should be shown as well if this is truly about learning sans an agenda.. god bless you and may he protect you in all that you wish to pursue..

  • AbdelZ

    Ok, sir :

    Do not worry , we do agree with each other concerning the fact that the Bible is just mumbo jumbo , for the most part at least.

    Thanks, appreciate indeed

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/VH3TN2TR3ZO5SIP3JXCYMVPDDQ Farrukh

    I am totally agree with Vic. It has already written in the Bible and the Quran that once a time will come that Dajjal (Antichrist) will get hold of the world and all the blind-minded, sinners and even some good but illetrate and feeble faith in God will follow him. That will be the most unbearable, intolerable and hard time for good people and they will have to be steadfast and pray to God for Mercy. Then God will send Jesus Christ (P.B.U.H) and he will gather the army of good people and fight Dajjal and defeat him. May God forgive us for our sins and save us from the Chaos of Dajjal and give us the dead in Iman (faith). Ameen

  • ThinkBomb

    .... Been thinking lots about this.... my understanding is that we ARE all compartmentalized parts of the whole - that is, we are all "Luciferian" parts of "God". Now this whole theist idea of "God" and "Satan" is purely allegorical and not a literal construct. It's a way to explain our place in the big picture and the whole idea has been misconstrued for thousands of years. Now we're acting as if the battle is between both extremes when really the battle is between how different people USE or MISUSE both sides of that coin... I just think people are both PART and PARCEL... Luciferian ideals are in essence about self preservation and fulfillment. The whole Religion side of it is in essence (or should be) about taking care of each other as a whole. To practice one does not mean that you can't practice the other. It's all about balance and what makes people evil or not is their intentions behind why they do what they do... This documentary is suggestive and misleading

  • AbdelZ

    haha

    Why do u get so excited ?

    Chill

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sean-Bray/100000294820547 Sean Bray

    It's the year 2012...That's significant WHY?? We have collectively as a people all called it 2012 years since A man Named Jesus walked the Earth and we still doubt he was, is and always will be..The way,the Truth and the light!

  • over the edge

    @Sean Bray
    and the reason we count years the way we do proves what? we all (mostly) refer to the days of the week based on even older gods does that make them true as well?

  • ihtasham salam

    Can't we all just be nice and happy and just reserve all judgement till the future?

  • Antonio Mario Palao

    I too stopped watching at the mention of Satan's DNA; because it was at that point I could feel my brain start to atrophy.

    All you thinking people out there - don't waste 1 minute of your precious time on this steaming pile of a video. Stick with Wormhole or Nat Geo - you might actually learn something useful.

  • http://www.facebook.com/varacuda Shwan Jaff

    facelikethesun thank u for ur documentary. I recomend that u check out some spiritual tools such as DMT, Ayahuasca and other pscycho actives. This are spiritual tools! This can help u to ask the rigth quastions..

  • Power Page

    this sh*$ is a conspiracy in itself. The new world order, satan worship, all of that may be true, but I think this film goes a little overboard into how and why this **** goes down haha. Check out the "Buddha". Learn something enlightening.

  • jon sturgis

    This documentary is completely ridiculous, they mention what is and is not "inspired canon", while mentioning all these conspiracy theories....funny when the most easily proved conspiracy was that world leaders throughout time have changed what is/and was not part of the bible according to their needs. The book of Enoch as I understand it was in the bible until the King James translation. fact of the matter is that even if the bible was written by the hand of god, it's been translated so poorly and edited for content by AT LEAST the Roman Catholic Church, the King James translation, as well as the initial translations from Aramaic into Greek, greek to latin,.....there are probably several other translations I don't even know about...point is the bible at this point is about as useless as one of these conspiracy theory shows. Please stop getting caught up in what your book says and help your fellow man.

  • facelikethesun

    Hey Shwan Jaff,

    Thanks for the kind words. I have looked at the study of DMT done by Dr. Rick Straussman and the accounts and experiences from journalists and others who spend time with medicine-men and Shamans from various tribes all over the world and I have to conclude that these are essentially substances which opens one up to the spiritual realm, portals if you will. The Bible actually talks about how a lot of the world will be deceived through the use of drugs and substances. Check out Revelation and look for the word "Pharmekeia" in the Greek translated as "Sorcery"

  • facelikethesun

    So you agree that the global elite worship Satan, but Jesus Christ and the Bible and God? No way those are true right?

  • facelikethesun

    All bible translations today come directly from the original language to the language it is being translated into. For example, the NT of today goes from Greek-English with plenty references to look up the original language to gain deeper insight. Enoch was a part of the Bible, but it was taken out in the 6th century. Whether it's "inspired canon" or not? I don't know. But I do know it serves for a good historical account that doesn't contradict with what we have in the bible now. We have too many scrolls that date within just a couple decades from when they were written to conclude that everything today is corrupt. Applying proper hermeneutics and studying the original language is the only way to make sure one understands what the bible says. In fact, if everyone applied proper hermeneutics, I believe much of the disagreements and distinctions between denominations would vanish.

    Are there bad translations? Yes. Does that mean it's not true? No. It is true that the RCC used faulty Latin translations to carry out their political agenda's. But that's why the reformation happened. There was a reason why the Papacy didn't allow the general public to read the bible or understand it. It was for control and power.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ElmoPutz David Foster

    "Is there a connection between UFOs, alien abductions, channeling spirits, demonic possessions, the new age movement, secret societies, and satanism?"

    Umm... It's always the same people showing up at the conventions?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Kat-Taylor/100002293006447 Kat Taylor

    I would go as far to say that the alien Abduction is the Rapture

  • LordNicodemus

    This doc uses a ton of fascinating film footage in a clever manipulative way to resell Christianity and that dusty old tome the Bible and the myths contained therein. The makers have scrambled science and metaphysics into a deceitful entertaining brew and this flick is fun to watch but it's ultimately an unconvincing and pretty silly propaganda hustle.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/XPHGCT5HWF3M24V2NZ4YOPRXLE billel

    honestly mate, 91 minutes of great information and what desturbed u is blue eyes jesus??? first of all...jesus his not ur friend, when u mention his name u follow it by peace and blessing be upon him ,two...u could make it a bit easy for people and say his from palastine( middle east ) one more thing, how about this pictures of black jesus?!!! dont u think is a bit wierd too!! my father used to say a camel always pay attention to the other camel hump and forget his.......!!! bless u

  • http://twitter.com/CharlesDalon Charles Dalon

    weak...

  • Grant Newsome

    I try to watch these documentaries, but they just never seem to convince me. Too unrealistic.

  • http://www.facebook.com/samuel.rachel Rachel Samuel

    Since when has Jesus been African??? Do your Research people... Jesus, a carpenter of his time, was was from Jerusalem. He was born in Bethlehem. Yes you will say.. I was born in China, my parents are African, but that doesn't make me look Chinese. Yeah Yeah, I know.... The Genealogy of Jesus goes back to David. David wasn't African + No Body down the line was African= Jesus not African :)

  • 1l2eo3

    David is a made up story, chew on that. if Jesus was born in America in the 1930's he would have to use the colored restroom?!what I do know is Jesus was not white! I don't care what his color was

  • http://twitter.com/Planetes_Aster Maeglin Bashimoto

    This isn't a documentary. This is a bizarre apology for Christianity. I'm willing to consider the existence of global elites planning world domination, but not if the Bible is being used as a reference book and Atlantis, aliens and whatnot are talked about as if they were actual facts. Ridiculous!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bonnie-Phelps/1554189419 Bonnie Phelps

    Unfortunately it took me 30 minutes to figure that one out!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bonnie-Phelps/1554189419 Bonnie Phelps

    Unfortunately, it took me 30 minutes before I realized that.

  • bertram89

    have you ever read any exerpts from the Gnostic texts? i ask that, because all through the video, and from reading your posts, I get the absolute impression that you have 100% certainty that the bible is truth, and ANYthing which goes even the slightest against the words in it, is incorrect and evil lol. i'm not trying to be rude in any way, it just seems like you already have your mind completely set on what is truth and what is fiction. if god didnt want us to use things like marijuana or other mind altering substances (natural ones), why would god put them on the earth. Also, why is it okay in any way that we are merely a species of servants to a god, and we can never evolve spiritually to become better? how is that bad in any way. from my interpretation of religion, I see god as a dictator, and I see satan as one who apparently wants to allow us to have every gift at our disposal. and no im not saying im a satan worshipper lol, thats simply an objective interpretation. my point of this post, is that organized religion is flawed in many many many instances, and this 2 and a half hour video proves my points. i like the idea of a surpreme ruler, and i like the idea of a good and bad, but i dont like the idea that we arent allowed to become god like. If god wanted puppets, he wouldnt have even mentioned in the garden of eden that there was a chance of higher knowledge. he would have simply made us less intelligent, and less succeptable to the apparent 'corruption' that we have suffered. by no means do i dispute that our global elite are involved in some 'demonic', 'devilish', and outright evil ****, but im sorry; saying with the utmost certainty that its god and satan is nothing more than propaganda. because at the end of the day, we have NOOO god damn idea whats real, whats true, what exists, and what doesnt. its about faith, and believing. and i believe that we are nothing more than intelligent creations, sent here as part of our spriritual learning path, and beyond that, its 100000000000% up the air.

  • loseffekt

    Fantastic Documentary!! Best I've seen in a while... makes soo much sense why we have this Luciferian belief structure woven throughout All occult teachings. I like the modesty about the Book Of Enoch as well, not being cannon and all, but I agree that if you want the truth, you must investigate all possibilities, Thank you.

  • facelikethesun

    You're not the first to bring these things up. I know I came across the film that knowledge and intellect is bad. But that wasn't the intent. And I think I am clear enough when I say that "we ourselves becomes gods on our own terms of using intellect, knowledge, etc" is the problem here. The Christian Gospel of salvation actually promises us immortality (becoming essentially God-like in state [eternal beings etc]). But it is achieved through faith, not works.

    Most, if not all religions preach works. In other words, do this or do that ritual and you will find God (this is exactly what the elites do in their worship of Lucifer). Rather, the true Gospel is saying, God came to us.

    At a deeper level, you said you said you like the idea of a supreme ruler, good and bad etc, but not Satan and God. I'm curious about that. You said,

    "because at the end of the day, we have NOOO god **** idea whats real, whats true, what exists, and what doesnt."

    So essentially you're agnostic about the matter and so you really don't have a belief in any of that stuff to begin with. So I see why you think we can't know, but I also don't understand how you could "like the idea of a supreme ruler, good and bad..." etc. When you say those things, it implies objective truth is real because it's how you are determining whether something is good or bad etc.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mercenarry-ForHire/100000621480223 Mercenarry ForHire

    I agree to a certain extend.

    My search points out that most of humanity tends to stray to the extremes,which is good in its own way as long as they believe that they cant do anything about it and try to collapse the little stability this world has.

    All worlds need their Heroes, Villains, Gods ,Demons ,leaders ,followers, neutrals and extremes.

    I find the logic and minds of almost all humans to be very interesting regardless if there right or wrong, other wise this world would not be worth paying attention to.

  • Tony McCollar

    disinformation much?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mercenarry-ForHire/100000621480223 Mercenarry ForHire

    Indeed, ived heard most of the conspiracies.

    But stories to have a certain truth behind it, not even i know what those are.

    Its a fun game that keeps my mind working and thinking. :) "What IF"

  • loseffekt

    This is only for Bible beleiving christians to understand Achems. If you do not believe in the Biblical account of creation, atonement for sin and salvation through Jesus Christ, the true son of God, then this will seem like jibberish to you. Not comic book, the Bible. Funny you say that though seeing as most comic book heroes and villians, the storyline and characters are based on the Bible and the story of Jesus.
    Check out a documentary called "Replacement Gods".

    In close, if you believe in Evolution, Big Bang Cosmology and the nubular hypothesis, this documentary is not for you. Kepp in mind that Only the Newest discoveries in the science of quantum physics and astro physics, and archeology havd vindicated the Biblical account and sent higher critics to the drawing board. I'm refering to the discovery that we live in a Plasma Universe (not big bang universe if you were wondering) :)

  • Achems_Razor

    @loseffekt:

    Science has vindicated the bible account?? show proof! but one thing you are right about, this is only for bible believing Christians to understand, a cluster of loonies.
    And how do you know we live in a plasma universe, because of a documentary?

  • Jesse Smith

    This mostly fits my world view. Interesting stuff. But no matter what documentary I'm watching from no matter what perspective always has to have the creepy music playing. It kinda drops it a couple notches for me. In some cases I can't hear the audio that's meant to be heard. Same goes for some of the images, but it's a video, so I get that.

  • DMT2012

    This 'documentary' is a great example of how ignorant, desperate and disillusioned Christians are.

    They seriously believe that this Jesus dude actually existed. 2012 years later he hasn't once shown up again, hasn't done anything positive at all for anyone on this planet and people still defend him as truth.

    Objectively speaking, if I were to defend someone with Jesus's track record for thousands of years I'd be rightfully declared insane.

  • facelikethesun

    Are you arguing that Jesus never existed? Or that he did but because he hasn't 'shown up' in a way that fits your paradigm, therefore he's not for real?

    If you want to be objective, at least be concise in your argument.

  • Achems_Razor

    Objective? I take it youse guyses believe in your "Rapture" whole websites up on that, how objective is that?

  • DMT2012

    Not sure how my previous comment wasn't clear or not concise.

    Yes, Jesus never existed. There is zero scientific evidence that such a person ever did exist nor that all the 'magical' stuff he was said to have done is actually possible.

    I believe that the world at large will never see rational consensus among people to solve the problems humanity faces. Science allows for facts to be tested by anyone, yet Christianity claims truth based on nothing and not one person can provide any proof for any of its beliefs. All they have is the divinity wild card.

    We consider ourselves a civilized society and yet millions of people base their lifes on a belief they cannot reasonably explain to themselves and for which there zero evidence to prove that any of it is true.

  • facelikethesun

    I find it interesting that you mention that there is "zero scientific evidence" that such a person existed. Science can never tell us what or who doesn't exist. And if you use that same principle, there isn't scientific evidence that your great great great great grandfather existed either (I'm using it as an example).

    How are events and persons of history past recognized? Written accounts, movements, etc. You would pretty much have to explain the various secular records concerning a man who existed in the first century, of which the Christian faith came from.

    I am certainly guilty of appealing to authority when I say this, but I think it's important for you to hear. Almost no one who studies the first century, regardless of religious affiliation, denies that a man named Yeshua lived in the first century. In fact, even the secular historians who would much rather have this guy NOT exist will grant that he lived in first century Palestine, he was killed via Roman crucifixion, his tomb was empty on the third day, and that hundreds of people believe they saw (notice the wording...they believed they saw...) a risen Yeshua from the dead. Now you would have to explain away all of those facts granted almost unanimously by historians before you can even begin to say Jesus didn't exist.

    Secondly, you bring up miracles or "magical stuff." Now let me ask you something. If miracles happened everyday, would they be miracles? And certainly, if there was a God, don't you think he could suspend the laws of nature? This doesn't prove anything, but it provides a thought exercise and a reflection for what you stated.

    I would disagree with you wholeheartedly that someone who believes in God cannot give reasons for his beliefs. Now let me be clear when I say that there is a difference between arguments for the existence of a monotheistic God, and the Christian God. However, for the sake of time, let me just be really brief.

    The argument from contingency, the various forms of the cosmological argument, the teleological argument (argument from design), ontological argument, the argument from logic, and the moral argument I believe are sufficient reasons. I won't get into each of these because they would take a while to develop. But in order for your position to hold up (which if I am not mistaken is that there is no God...certainly not a Christian God) then you would have to tear down all of those arguments and in place of it construct your own reasons for believing that you are correct in your view of reality.

    And don't think for a second that civilization was brought forth by a non-theistic view of the world. Even the advent of modern science until Darwin came along was predicated on a theistic view of the world...that there was order to the universe to which we could rationalize and understand.

  • facelikethesun

    For you to suggest that a potential future event, as believed by the Christians often referred to as the rapture, will not happen would mean you know the future and are omnipotent.

    Do I personally believe it's going to happen? Yes, I think there is a potential for it. And certainly under my worldview I have adequate reasons to believe it to be true given the premises. And equally, under your premises and presuppositions of reality, there are no reason for you to believe that such an event will occur.

    So even being objective requires a certain set of presuppositions. Now if you want to, we can get into what we have in common and where we differ. That would at least get us to understand each other. But just simply pointing a finger and calling the someone who doesn't share your view of reality as lacking objectivity is dishonest and disingenuous.

  • DMT2012

    The problem in today's world is that each religion claims their own god is the one and only divine truth while all of them are blind to the fact that they're all essentially adoring the same thing...THE SUN....

    You blindly believe these supposed 'historians' who have documented a figure named Yeshua. You have absolutely no way to prove that these historians etc. were genuine or not. With that said, without absolute (scientifically provable) evidence one can only apply reason in order to try and narrown down what is true.

    It makes complete logical sense that Jesus as well as so many other gods are not literally individuals but represent the sun and adoration of same which has existed ever since humans understood what the sun's patterns & powers are.

    Now, that's a basis from which to work and from which to overcome the ridiculous exclusivity each religion claims which only separates human beings.

    I'm personally very spiritual and feel that all things on this planet are interconnected within the vastness of the amazing cosmos. I'm reasonable enough though to not have to impose a natural-object-a.k.a.-the-sun-turned-invented-human-named-Yeshua onto other people. We humans are all the same and we're all part of one and the same cosmic energy.

  • Achems_Razor

    I and others are omnipotent as far as quantum mechanics will allow as to this date, according to quantum mechanics/physics, there is no time, spacetime or matter, all is static until we look and collapse the waveform "double slit experiment," "Schrodinger's cat," "quantum entanglement," as Einstein called "spooky actions at a distance."

    And there is conclusive proof that we do form our day to day reality by our probable actions in the now taking into consideration interactions, that we peruse from our static, past, present, fields of our "nows" encompassing our day to day living.

    But one thing that you have to keep in mind all must follow the laws of physics that encompasses our present reality, so no "Rapture" no la, la, land as in people floating off as portrayed to their friend in the sky, that is mass hallucination par none.

  • facelikethesun

    So let me ask you this since you believe that Christianity is based on Sun worship. Are you in agreement with the say someone like Albert Pike, the grandfather of the scottish rite freemasons who proposed the same idea some 100 years ago, who also openly admits that Lucifer is god? I think Manly P Hall who was also a Freemason said that as well. I'm just curious.

    But back on point. The whole theory of Christianity being sun-worship as proposed by the first section of Zeigeist is nothing more than fabricated lies. Same thing with Jordan Maxwell or countless others who have proposed that theory. In fact, the first person to talk about the Christ-myth wasn't until the 18th century. That's 1700 years after Jesus during the enlightenment period. And I'm sure you've heard about the Zeigeist challenge. It's still up. All you have to do is show the original source for all the claims Zeigeist (Peter Joseph) makes in the first section of the first film...that is the original text of the ancient writings that allegedly wrote things like, "Horus was born on December 25th." etc. If you can prove it, you win $1000! But up to date, no one has been able to do it because it's a lie. I also address briefly about the sun-worship thing in this film Age of Deceit. I quote a bible scripture from the OT that says worshipping the sun, moon, stars etc. is not granted. In fact, those ideas were pagan in root.

    So in any case, the whole Jesus is just Sun worship needs to be shown much more conclusively before I even begin to consider as true. In fact, I wasn't quite a Christian when I saw the first Zeigeist and thought it was profound, but then I started digging for more information and that's when I discovered how awfully flawed the argument is.

    On science, I find it remarkable that you said, "You blindly believe these supposed 'historians' who have documented a figure named Yeshua. You have absolutely no way to prove that these historians etc" Yet you buy into the Sun-Worship myth that is NOT even supported by history? Ironic isn't it? And you read me incorrectly. The historians I was referring to are current historians of today who study the first century. There are also several factors of the secular writings of Jesus in the first to second century. First, history was recorded much differently in those days. Mostly, recorded history concerned royalty, kings, queens, and other leaders who were thought to have been gods in their own way. Jesus was just a carpenter and you realize that he was crucified for practicing "magik" and claiming to be God right?

    I agree with you that religious exclusivity only divides humanity. And certainly that is true. BUT that has no bearing on whether the Christian Gospel is true or not, or if Hinduism is true or not etc.

    And it's wonderful that you are spiritual and believe that we are all connected. Although I am a Christian, I do think there is some truth to what you say there. But you have to be honest with yourself as we all do. It's clear to me that the you yourself cannot live by the standard you set for yourself in terms of what is true based on scientific objectivity. Bottom line is that for science to work, it presupposes math and logic. So you have to really get at the heart of where those things come from.

  • facelikethesun

    "But one thing that you have to keep in mind all must follow the laws of physics that encompasses our present reality"

    But I thought the problem the field of science is having now is that the understandings and behaviors observed in at the quantum level are not consistent with the theory of relativity and the laws of physics? In fact they seem to contradict each other.

    Yes I know the understanding of where science is as far as the quantum mechanics/physics is concerned. But to suggest somehow, because of these theories, you are omnipotent and therefore can know the future? That's a stretch. If anything, it shows that there is something outside of space and time all together imposing itself into the physical reality. Understanding quantum mechanics and physics doesn't make a person capable of predicting the future.

  • DMT2012

    I think you are very naive and I feel sorry for you believing this Christianity cr#p.

    I have one question for you...How many gods are there/can there be? Is Jesus the one and only or can multiple gods actually exist?

    If Jesus is the only one, what are all the other gods of different religions, bogus? In other words, is Jesus the only truth?

    If there are many gods, how can that be if there can only be one truth/one divine creator?

  • facelikethesun

    I find it interesting that you never respond to any of the questions or propositions. Just calling me naive while not addressing anything I post seems to show where you're at with things. In any case, I will answer your questions.

    Yes Jesus is the only true God. But if you are a diligent student of the entirety of the Bible, you will find that it actually gives a very good account of the "gods" of various other cultural pantheons.

    The Old Testament talks about gods, and about the divine council of gods. It explains how they took dominion over certain areas of land throughout the earth. Couple that with the hundreds of ancient cultures that talk about beings from the sky coming down to teach mankind agriculture, building cities, justice systems, etc etc etc and you begin to form a complete picture of what might be going on.

    There is one true Creator God and this God manifested on earth as Jesus. All other gods are mere counterfeits. It becomes even more apparent as you begin to understand proper Christian theology. All other religions describe the human being doing something to attain higher status or higher connection. For example, Islam, you have to pray a number of times a day and follow strict rules and rituals to gain favor of God. But the Christian Gospel describes how WE didn't do anything, but that God came to us. He gave us the gift of salvation, it's up to us whether to accept it or not. That's the one MAJOR difference between ALL religions compared to Christianity. Are there rituals and things included in the Christian Gospel? Yes. But it's quite clear if you read the Bible that they are things to remember or honor God, not to achieve cosmic points to gain favor of God.

  • Achems_Razor

    All I can say is that you religee's march to the beat of a different drummer, and it is a complete waste of time for me to discuss anything further with you, am putting it as polite as I can.

  • facelikethesun

    I find it interesting that you find it as a waste of time. I by no means want to convince you of anything, but I do seek legit conversations, at the very least respond to the points I bring up. I often find that those who disagree with me don't ever talk about the points, but just back away. What are you afraid of?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Akos-Szeredai/100000988906612 Akos Szeredai

    well, tiny little problem. the Bible was created by the mystery schools. it's a quite good collection of basic wisdom.

  • DMT2012

    Hahaha...you're so full of it...

    Well, thank you for explaining the truth to me. Based on your reasonable assessment of what must be true, I will today start praying to Jesus (and definitely not to any of the other counterfeit gods) on a daily basis and I shall make sure to visit church frequently.

    I shall never ask myself why I shoul be prayin in the first place and I will totally ignore the fact that Mr. Only True God a.k.a Jesus does what he wants anyways while **** for humanity isn't getting any better even though millions on this planet have accepted his offer of salvation.

    On a serious note, I think you are a great example of why a lot of humans are completely lost. Your blind belief in anything that the Bible/Christianity advocates has left you in a sad narrow minded state of mind which will never allow you to truly connect with human beings who don't share your same beliefs.

    I pity you for your closed-mindedness and hope you will one day awake.

  • StillRV

    Are you the actual film producer?

  • clubadam

    WOW, just wow. After constant searching and researching for the truth of what state our planet is in, im happy to conclude it here. I have recently come back to believe in God not because of this video, but because of how the world has turned out today. This video just clarified all my questions and basically stone-cold stunnered christianity back into me lol. I wish there was a second parter! what am i going to research now? oh i know ill just read the bible :)

  • clubadam

    Wow, just Wow! after years of searching and researching for the truth. Right before my eyes! Great documentry, has answered all my questions and revitallised my faith n god. Im 22 healthy, smart, and a good hearted person. After getting in an arguement with a doctor about religion i realized he was right on the point, and he pretty much memorized the bible lol. To all the naysayers out there, its ok to hate and not believe in this, i mean the bible pretty much predicted that a long time ago. I've spent so much time into researching things that now i have but one last thing i can do and thats read the bible. I'd like to thank the people who made this documentry. It truley is an age of deciet, so much BS out there, So much.... I would rather die of old age, have zero technology, deseased and go through the worst pain i can imagine than accept something like become gods ourselves. The whole idea of becoming a god is a bad idea for humans, knowing how currupt and evil we can be!

    It's funny how the world we live in today truly has made the bible & Jesus look like a joke, but to read it and see just how intelligently something was writting thousands of years ago just comes to show how dumb we can be today.

  • WTC7

    "To all the naysayers out there, its ok to hate and not believe in this,...".

    Hmmm, I don't hate but I don't believe in this.

    Not that I don't agree there is so much deceit and BS out there today, I mean beside the bible...

  • clubadam

    Hmmm I guess I was in the moment when I wrote that comment, I understand your position and respect it, just as it would be impossible to convict you to go all religious and all, it would be impossible to persuade me to go against Christianity. I have to commend your comeback thou, it made me smile because if I didn't believe in god I'd write the same thing :)

  • iroquoisnation

    wow what a wake up call. The New World Order are the ones making everyone think that the Bible isn't true. After watching this documentary things really make sense.

  • facelikethesun

    yes, I actually put the film together...

  • facelikethesun

    Again the irony. You pity me for being closed-minded? I've grew up as an atheist. I was into buddhism for a while. I looked into Hinduism, and even Islam. I took on an agnostic stance for much of my life. The one place where I didn't want to look was Christianity. Basically for all the same reasons you mention there. But looking into it for myself, there is just too much evidence for truth there.

    You can reject Jesus as God, but guess what, Jesus will honor that. He's never going to force anyone to believe in Him.

    And I find it odd that you realize that there is evil in the world, but not only do you have no objective point of reference, but you also blame God for MIA, of which you don't even believe exists.

    I would re-think about whose actually being narrow-minded.

  • DMT2012

    Ok, let me explain it to you as I would to a 5-year old, very straightforward and simple.

    ------------------------
    1.) You and I, we are both human beings, right? (I hope we can at least agree on that)

    We both have a brain, we are capable of using language to communicate and we can using things, such as reasoning, rationality, self-awareness and introspection to make sense of the world around us.

    2.) You and I, we both have beliefs about certain subjects, right? As per Wikipedia the word 'belief' is defined as: "the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."

    You belief the Creator God manifested itself in Jesus and I believe that story is nothing more than a story.

    Note: In the mentioned definition you see the words 'psychological state', something to do with our psyche. I hope we both regard psychology as a credible science.

    3.) You and I, each of us is -or at least has been- subjected to psychological manipulation. As per Wikipedia 'psychological manipulation' is defined as: "a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics."

    E.g., advertisers try to convince us to consume cigarettes, enlist in the army etc...all these things are considered psychological manipulation.

    -------------------------

    Based on all of the above, and considering the arguments you have presented, I have no reason to believe you or anyone associated with Christianity since you, along with all those other people, are bound by human limitation and manipulation. None of us humans can be all-knowing. For something as important as you and any other Jesus/Christianity humans are advocating, I'm afraid more than your mere mortal words are needed to transform such words into beliefs.

    Based on none of you being able to accomplish that and Creator God for some reason not wanting to manifest himself anymore on this planet, I conclude that either your story is bogus or Creator God doesn't care/want all humans to belief the same thing, for if he wanted he could accomplish it in an instant. All that'd be required is for Creator God to manifest himself briefly and walk a few meters on water while making sure it happens in a public place...someone with a camera is always around. Creator God could also upload a vid straight to YouTube and turn the planet into faithful Christians overnight.

    As far as I'm concerned, unless that sort of evidence exists, you and all your brain-washed, money-grabing Christian-church crew can k#$@ my a#@....

  • DMT2012

    Ok, let me explain it to you as I would to a 5-year old, very straightforward and simple.

    ------------------------
    1.) You and I, we are both human beings, right? (I hope we can at least agree on that)

    We both have a brain, we are capable of using language to communicate and we can using things, such as reasoning, rationality, self-awareness and introspection to make sense of the world around us.

    2.) You and I, we both have beliefs about certain subjects, right? As per Wikipedia the word 'belief' is defined as: "the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."

    You belief the Creator God manifested itself in Jesus and I believe that story is nothing more than a story.

    Note: In the mentioned definition you see the words 'psychological state', something to do with our psyche. I hope we both regard psychology as a credible science.

    3.) You and I, each of us is -or at least has been- subjected to psychological manipulation. As per Wikipedia 'psychological manipulation' is defined as: "a type of social influence that aims to change the perception or behavior of others through underhanded, deceptive, or even abusive tactics."

    E.g., advertisers try to convince us to consume cigarettes, enlist in the army etc...all these things are considered psychological manipulation.

    -------------------------

    Based on all of the above, and considering the arguments you have presented, I have no reason to believe you or anyone associated with Christianity since you, along with all those other people, are bound by human limitation and manipulation. None of us humans can be all-knowing. For something as important as you and any other Jesus/Christianity humans are advocating, I'm afraid more than your mere mortal words are needed to transform such words into beliefs.

    Based on none of you being able to accomplish that and Creator God for some reason not wanting to manifest himself anymore on this planet, I conclude that either your story is bogus or Creator God doesn't care/want all humans to belief the same thing, for if he wanted he could accomplish it in an instant. All that'd be required is for Creator God to manifest himself briefly and walk a few meters on water while making sure it happens in a public place...someone with a camera is always around. Creator God could also upload a vid straight to YouTube and turn the planet into faithful Christians overnight.

    As far as I'm concerned, unless that sort of evidence exists, you and all your brain-washed, money-grabing Christian-church crew can k#$@ my a#@....

  • facelikethesun

    for some reason your comment didn't post here but I was able to read it in my email.

    So you don't find it interesting that the very thing that you cite, with psychological manipulation being the crux of it, you don't think the science of psychology itself is not subject to manipulation? There is a huge difference between hard science and soft science. Psychology is a soft science as if biology.

    Secondly, you said "I'm afraid more than your mere mortal words are needed to transform such words into beliefs."

    Have you ever actually studied the Biblical Prophecy? Because that my friend is supernatural. How would an entity authenticate His message is he is omniscient, omnipresent etc? He would write history before it happens. And He did. All you gotta do is study.

    Third, your argument about God not manifesting, or providing ample proof etc...those things are your standards. Are you telling me that if some guy claimed to be God and then walked on water in front of your eyes, you would automatically believe? I highly doubt that. You would scrutinize, want to bring it to a lab, etc. And even then, science would simply be inconclusive, they would never conclude supernatural because science itself is predicated on the natural world.

    Fourth, you still haven't answered any of my argument about an objective point of reference as far as your concerned. What IS your objective point of reference for morals, ethics, math, logic, etc?

  • Naradain

    I would like to thank you so very much for making this movie available. Can you please tell me the full name of the "Aquarius" video you mentioned? Anyway, I had strayed from the flock so to speak and started watching the Ancient Alien series and am ashamed to say I was starting to get too interested in it. I would elaborate, but it's unnecessary. Again, thank you for exposing the truth and may God bless you always :)

  • DMT2012

    This is my last comment on this exchange with you.

    "A lie cannot live."
    Martin Luther King

    I think you are a good representation of Christianity's last gasps of desperately trying to hang on to ideas which have been gradually uncovered as myths.

    The beauty of nature is there to see and feel for anyone anywhere 24/7 ever since day one on this planet. That is truth. Regarding psychology as a science, most of it can be experienced by all human beings, free of charge and not subject to certain rituals.

    Humans tend to be stubborn in their beliefs for fear of questioning themselves. I pity you and all Christians for all of you base your beliefs on a book without being able to demonstrate to anyone around you in our current reality any of the things you claim Christianity is able to accomplish.

    Luckily we live in a period of advancing technology and global communication which enables more transparency and thus allows people to take into consideration more information when trying make up what to believe or not. To that end, utilizing MLK's quote, Christianity as a belief has never lived and never will, especially with transparency of information only increasing.

    I'm calling out you and all people who believe in Christianity as the truth and challenge you to produce something that allows anyone anywhere to truly feel what you are proclaiming, without referring us to some supposedly supernatural book. Unless Christianity is able to walk the walk and not just talk the talk you must fully question yourself and all your religious beliefs. Otherwise, you represent no more truth than any person who believes in other religions/gods.

  • http://www.facebook.com/admon.audesh Admon Audesh

    just wanted to say something; historically speaking there is more evidence of jesus "as a person"existing" then cleopatra and she did exist :D

  • http://www.facebook.com/AceSymetry Sean Micheal Phillips

    Faith in anything is still a shot in the dark. all you can do is hope you get lucky and pick the right one, but there is no way anyone can know for sure.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/AI5DBBYW4GZJPBCRHWPP7XSNLM Killian Bernal

    Today Jesus Christ is Exalted, yesterday & tomorrow. Go serve our King!

  • StillRV

    Don't you feel that it may perhaps be a bit strong? You have a right to believe as you do, as well as to speak your mind. However, I always find it a bit over-reaching when condemnation and judgement come into play. Is it not strictly stated that to judge is the explicit right of god alone? And yet judge you do. Can you not keep to your faith quietly and humbly, comforted by the love of god? "The meek shall enherit the earth" "Judge not lest ye be judged" "Blessed be the peace keepers" That is just my two cents.

  • facelikethesun

    I find it interesting that you use the Bible itself to demonstrate your objective point of reference and your sense of justice.

    "Can you not keep to your faith quietly and humbly, comforted by the love of god?"

    ^^that is not Christianity. Part of being a Christian is to spread the Gospel message. It's a huge part of it. Now I would be the first to admit that people throughout the centuries have used it to justify their own horrible acts. But those that committed these horrible crimes were not consistent with the entirety of the Bible. In fact, the reality is that NO ONE can live entirely consistent with the Bible.

    The standards set by Jesus are unattainable by humanity, that's why Christians talk about grace and forgiveness from God.

    And what did I do but simply put together a film. If you disagree with it, that's ok. No one is forcing you to agree with my view of reality.

  • facelikethesun

    Thanks! The film I mentioned is called Aquarius: The Age of Evil and it was made by Keith Thompson.

    God Bless

  • StillRV

    Granted. Yet I only asked why such strong judgemental sentiments in the video. Of course there is room to disagree. I have yet to hear of a solid biblical command that all must be converted to the fold. In fact it is clearly stated in the bible that disagreement will persist. If all were to follow christ then there would be no tribulation etc. Given the large number of contradictory points within the bible I wonder often why the more agressive of the two mesages tend to be held as truth while the more passive are put asside. Is not the core of christianity peace and faith? Other than in reference to his 12 deciples I cannot recall one instance of Christ telling followers that the spread of the faith was perquisite to salvation.

  • facelikethesun

    No. It is not a pre-requisite to salvation, but those of us who are under the salvation of Jesus and accept this free gift are commanded to spread the Gospel. Besides, the Gospel is the "Good News."

    It's clear in the Bible that Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. I don't recall anywhere that states if you follow Christ, then there would be no tribulation. Quite the opposite. It states that one will be persecuted and even hated for His names sake.

    If you would like to discuss more on particular issue where you see contradictions, I would be more than happy to address them for you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=606460744 Lani Leonard

    so what about god healing people on the streets? the people that he does it through arent carrying a bible. they ask him to heal people they see are in pain on the streets, people who have their fists broken or fractured from beating someones face in, he healed that persons hand. witchcraft? trickery?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/AI5DBBYW4GZJPBCRHWPP7XSNLM Killian Bernal

    God does it all for His name sake, that He will be glorify. Even though how many times His creature fails Him, still God demonstrate His love for His creature. God wants each and every one of us to return to Him and worship Him everyday with every beat of our heart as long as we live. Literally, God heals those person as if a kid asking help from his Father.

  • SalCat5000

    up above is my comment.

  • SalCat5000

    this was a joke. sloppy. and completely biased from a christian point of view. it gives false information on satanism, meditation and the REAL world we live in today. I believe the world is going through a transformation...but I'm sorry as an athiest to hear that it has something to do with demons and the devil?! Sorry folks. Just not buying it....I'm going to keep on meditating ;)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Dean-Edgington/1003719946 Dean Edgington

    utter junk, hardly contains any real facts. it serves as a lesson in how not to make a documentary.

  • http://www.facebook.com/joe.gingrich.98 Joe Gingrich

    Ohhh NO! I am a Free Mason and had no idea about this the whole time. I guess I will take your word for it and leave the brotherhood. I'm sure you do know more about the fraternity than I do.

  • rd47art

    All you see here can be seen in both Mayan, Hopi and Native American tales. The only difference there "God" or "Gods" have no hell awaiting you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=576260344 Moon Monika CH

    Yewh! I got headache from this stuff....

  • http://www.facebook.com/richie.cahill Richie Cahill

    bunch of Xian rubbish. these people should keep their crap in the churches.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_GP3R54P5TELXUW3YVATEKYBDWE Perry

    It goes without saying that conspiracy theory movies (especially ones dealing with the New World Order *dun dun DUNNNN!*) are mostly illogical, nonsensical claptrap. But this film reaches a new level of batshit insanity. This makes David Icke look downright lucid in comparison.

  • StillRV

    It is also said that those who own a sword should beet them into plowshares. And it does not say that all believers must spread the word only that they should not deny the word nor their beliefs.
    What I meant in regards the tribulation is that without non believers all would be raptured and then no need for the tribulation at all. And since logically if it is said that there will be tribulation then it follows that there must be dissent.

  • http://www.facebook.com/andreea.bruma.3 Andreea Bruma

    first I was like....hmmm...but then I was like...wtf is this?

  • facelikethesun

    The biggest fallacy that 99% of the arguments I come across in trying to show how the Bible is evil, or bad, is completely taking the verses out of context to make their point.

    Not to mention appealing to the moral argument of which I've tried to ask you already before without an answer.

  • jctjctjct

    Hey bro, don't worry or concern yourself with the negativity that these people throw at you. They are lashing out at you because they believe that they have outsmarted God. When faced with the truth they resist because they don't hold the power of truth. Like children they differ their responsibility and blame anyone but themselves. We are smothered in evil in this world. It has a grip that we all can feel. As tangible as evil is and how so many embrace it or flee from it, few seem to see that evil is anti good. Anti goodness is clarification that good (God) exists. You have done a good thing here with your film.
    "You can walk into a room full of darkness and light one small candle and the darkness will flee. You can not do the opposite."

  • POZZIMYSTIC

    Well said!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000141031316 Kelly Durbin

    Hello Im 39 years old i have always believed that there is only one Jesus Christ. I have only read a few pages of the bible and have only been to church a handful of times when i was young for Sunday school except for weddings. in other words Im not "educated" nor do i practice any religion. So why do i believe in Jesus and always have since i can remember? I have always felt his love for all he has created and my faith comes from him.
    Except for telling my daughter what i do know and what i believe this is probably the most I"ve expressed myself of what i believe to others.
    I like your documentary it is very interesting. i do know that the U.S. government is controlled by the greed of billionaires and the politicization's govt. are "puppets" for them. And as a U.S. citizen if feel like a puppet and serve them as much as i know this is wrong and makes me sick to type this.
    i see how the govt. has slowly taken control and have trained people into believing that this is a free country.This is NOT a free country. it is so sad to see that people say and believe our solders today are fighting for our freedom, worse is that the solders believe the same. when the U.S. fought for its freedom was in WWI and WWII . When other country's were actually attacking or trying to attack U.S. soil. all other acts of war has been for greed it goes to show how powerful greed is. these kids should not be fighting for this govt. but they do it. Their has to be sargents , captains ,commanders that know this. whats going to be their fate?
    i want to stand up against our govt. and believe someday allot of others will stand with me and put our greedy govt. in "check". We are suppose to live well and able provide for ourselves for a reasonable cost . not for the cost of a govt. ran by greed. our money we work hard for is going to them not we the people. do we really need to pay 4.00$ a gal. for gas? 20.00$ for a t-bone steak? No we don't! that money is going in the pockets of the very rich that is how they are taking over they are going to make us totally dependent on them. if something is not done whats it going to be like for our kids when they are our age ? our grand children? when the sh*t does hit the fan i hope the military knows witch way to point their guns. Greed is not going to quit being greed peacefully.
    i see how one could tie the world leaders in as being demons and how they are taking controll for evil. like i stated interesting. Nice job on film.

  • http://twitter.com/loblanc loblanc

    Agree 100% with Andreea Bruma.

  • http://twitter.com/Tristan8585 Tristan S Bruce

    This documentary is deceptive in itself and is actually quite meaningless in my opinion. I mean, what does anyone gain from this? False knowledge? Didn't religions such as Christianity create their own "new world order" thousands of years ago?

  • Kaaike

    Having seen the first 10 minutes of this film I was sure: It's the Christians again! After reading the comments I was even more sure! On this side of the Atlantic (Europe) people are amazed about how American Christians regard the bible as being the true word of God and even come up with all sorts of nonsensical BS like 'the Rapture'. Do you christians over there really believe that some day you will fly up somehow? Please take responsibility for your own acts instead of believing skydaddy is responsible for all that's happening in your life. After seeing some doc's questioning Christianity and having read the comments below I see Chrstians in the US these days are getting more and more agressive and dangerous. Dumber too.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/Z4RNOC6F23CTCWJEXMGSQ4PFDU Lea

    It never ceases to amaze me that when I do make a post to this forum, I see insults about someone's beliefs and name calling. Those who believe do, and those who don't believe don't.

    I don't know, I'm thinking the reason it is called a forum is because the people who comment here should act older that four.

    Just one woman's opinion

  • http://www.facebook.com/ElmoPutz David Foster

    "I see Chrstians in the US these days are getting more and more agressive and dangerous. Dumber too. "

    Yeah, but then so are the atheists. I expect we'll be building death camps here, shortly.

  • LoGos87

    There is nothing more evil than a creature demanding to be glorified and using threats to enforce that glorification.

  • LoGos87

    No loving being demands to be worshipped. No omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient being would help you get over the flu while letting millions of non-Christian African children die of starvation and disease.

  • LoGos87

    The profoundly legendized character of Jesus is probably based on a real person. Many legends are.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/P7KVI23FAIHDTMBKVBZ45MES7A Sean

    The Ancient mystery schoolcame out of ancient egypt and they were destroyed.All three of the worlds biggest religions came out of egypt.I do not believe in the bible and this is why.The first ever story of a immaculate conception was of the goddess isis being pregnated by her dead husband osirus,from this same story osirus was murdered by his brother seth,this is where europeans got there stories for the bible.Isis gave birth to a child name horus,this is where the story of jesus came from matter of fact horus and jesus are the same,osirus and seth is cain and abel.Masonry also came out of egypt.Imhotep was a master mason,a true master mason has to master all of the crafts,science,agriculture,math.I no that some of you may be mad at what i'm saying but hell i was mad also when i learned.Maat law is also where the ten comandments came out of.None of the prophets ever walked this earth.Abraham suppose to be the first to start a monotheism in one god,when in fact akhenaten was the first and his mother was queen tiye.

  • thenesteamonster

    this "film" is directed and written by a guy named GONZO; it's a horror movie that hopefully isn't supposed to be taken seriously; anarchists with or without cause must love this kind of instigation; how can a sentient being be against nature? these idiots must be against any kind of social organization! how can you reject and deny the natural path of structural evolution?!
    have a good laugh or pray that some "elite" sends you via time machine to the dark ages you belong to

    ps: mr. vlatko please discern between good and evil and cut this bullshit out of it's roots; God didn't mean for us to kill eachother but to grow together and prosper

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/AI5DBBYW4GZJPBCRHWPP7XSNLM Killian Bernal

    To all who blaspheme and denies the Lord, curse to you for I am not saying these things with my behalf or my own authority, but by the word of God who creates the bible. I am not trouble with your words, rejoice always my brothers and sisters because our God Jesus Christ had been risen from the dead that we're free from the curse of the law, thanks to the One who paid our debt, be glory to Him for ever and ever. God is a faithful King.

    P.S to the author.

    Continue digging the well.

  • Achems_Razor

    Killian Bernal:

    Now do not go cursing anybody, in the name of your make believe gods, read the "comment policy" any other such posts will be removed!

  • docoman

    Could you point out to me the part of the Bible where it says you should go around cursing people, in God's name?
    Or is that actually AGAINST what Jesus' message was supposed to be. You can't even get your own story correct, but claim to know the mind of God, and act on his behalf.
    "God is a faithful King."
    Why would God require faith?
    Those that do actually believe and follow the message of love from the Bible should be ashamed of the likes of you, who judge and curse others claiming His authority.
    Those that don't believe it shouldn't have to listen to rantings and insults from the likes of you.
    The whole of our species that actually have some decent morals are sick of war mongering, belief imposing, authority claiming self appointed judges like yourself.
    Shove that curse of yours, right up your dogma.

  • adamgoad

    this was a great documentary. if you were interested in this i would encourage you to go to amazingdiscoveries.org and watch a series called total onlsaught. this will take your mind to another level of understanding in the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan.

  • facelikethesun

    Isn't it interesting that modern academia some two centuries ago decided that all historical accounts that were labelled "unreasonable" were tossed aside, except for the Egyptian accounts? Today, the timeline of ancient history is grounded in the Egyptian records. In many ways, it's not that surprising when you realize that the folks who instigated the enlightenment were high level occultists wanting to bring back the mystery religions. And guess what, they've done a great job. Look at the entertainment media of today. It's outlandishly occult. Why have they done this, and why do they want to indoctrinate young people into the occult while discrediting the Bible? Perhaps it's because there is something about the Bible that is true and dangerous to those who want to control the masses.

    That is precisely why the Catholic Church never allowed the people to actually read the Bible. In fact, the Papacy murdered thousands of Christians who were caught with a Bible.

    It's not an us versus them thing. The reality is found in the fact that our battle is NOT against fleh and blood.

  • littlegreensheep

    It's pretty funny that those posting negative comments are simply reinforcing the very claims the film makes. You should make an addendum to the film taking all these comments as anecdotal evidence of how society has been influenced lol! I thought this film was absolutely incredible and answered questions no one has ever been able to answer and things that I just couldn't figure out either. It all makes sense now o_o

  • 1insearchof

    I was taught this as child, 40 years ago and over the past ten years was in the company of people who were obsessed by these thinkings... my only question to them was "so what? what are you going to do"... a question that I asked myself at the age of 7. Strangely, they loathe Christians... and I being one, was just amazed at their viewpoint. They were against the illuminati, the shape shifting lizards...but still never came to the conclusion. They attended channelling...searching for some truth.

    I ponder if this documentary has too much of a Christian slant... as I in the quest for the truth, do not want to be clouded by Christian thought, because the truth will surpass any theory. No Christian emotion is neccessary.

    The references to the scriptures are too convincing and therein lies the truth...Is there a sequel to this.. or a recommended follow-on?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1375164250 Linda Heinz Dusky

    Very well done! This delves into real issues that are explicitly taught in Scripture~ I encourage people to watch and listen with an open mind!

  • gunk wretch

    this movie is full of intolerant bigotry against anyone who is not a Christian, misrepresenting Paganism and really everything.

    Christians seem surprised to learn the world is ruled by "Satan" but then if you believe everyone different then you is a " Satanist" what can you expect? They are terrified of a "one world religion" being imposed on them yet have no trouble proclaiming they have the only one true religion and that all governments should impose its principles on others, if not impose the religion on others fully in a theocracy.

  • Declan_Walsh

    Its interesting further on to hear his analysis of various occult or new age practices/beliefs.

  • Chris Mcknight

    Gunk Wretch below me worded it greatly, this is a very close minded bigoted documentary that sees only one possibility. They started at the conclusion that these were "satanist" hating people who seek to rule and then, based off an earlier conclusion, began an esoteric back pedal of falsified information to validate their claim.

  • facelikethesun

    I love the intolerance of your statement. "This movie is full of intolerant bigotry...." And your comment doesn't?

    You are making a sweeping generalization that all Christians believe that all governments should impose its principles on others in some sort of theocracy. Please show me where it states that in the Bible.

    I made the film as a simple thesis to all that I've learned in the last few years. I had no religious background whatsoever.

    And it seems you have something against Christians...explain to me how that's not "anti-christ"?

  • facelikethesun

    No sequel yet but with the response I've been getting, I'll consider it. There is a difference between a follower of Yeshua who seeks truth by the Word, and a so called "Christian."

    The more I learn the more I understand that cultural Christianity is a serious abomination to the truth found in the Scriptures. Of course for semantics sake, I will often refer to myself as a Christian, but certainly, I try not to even though from the perspective of many, I still fall under that title.

  • Sev714

    The two biggest things that I've had a hard time correlating with the Biblical account are aliens and dinosaurs... I found this documentary to be very insightful. It helps that I was already fully convinced that the Illuminati and Secret Societies rule the world... that there is a 'shadow government,' so to speak. For me, everything in this film resonated as solid truth.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/7YVETOW7KSXP6Z2RM2GFBREFGM bobdave

    This documentary is proof of the insanity in this world.. everything in it is a trip of schizophrenic gibberish. People like the guy who made this video are seriously disturbed. Look at facts not your psychotic imagination.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/K35LBSWIJAFOO2H2GPKH6ZK5XM Kaitlyn

    Cant hear the guy talking over the stupid music

  • facelikethesun

    Would love to chat with you face to face bob-dave.

  • irishchavez

    I do believe there is shadow government in the world and america's foreign policy could be described as pure evil, however, to start talking about mesonic orders and higher beings promoting this school of thought is both stupid and counter-productive. Once you begin to think that your fate is in the hands of gods or devils then you have already lost the battle for humanity and a more peaceful, rational world... Also only watched till 25 mins..what an utter load of bollix!!

  • http://twitter.com/TonyWoodworth Tony Woodworth

    This guy is nucking futs. Don't waste your time if you have a brain in your head.

  • facelikethesun

    That's because you don't see the truth. You only see the religious veil. It's exactly what the proverbial "they" want you to see. In fact, hating Christianity in general plays into their plans. You don't think there's an anti-Christian agenda going on throughout the world? Why do you think the institution of Christianity is so corrupt? It's not because it just happened. Its been systematically infiltrated just like our education system and just like our political system.

  • irishchavez

    The christain church is corrupt for the same reasons our educational and political system is...MONEY! The only reason the west has christianity is because the romans adopted it as thier religion to apease a massive uprising within their empire..it was always corrupt! I personally wudnt let religion anywhere near our schools, it only narrows the mind and creates sectarianism..

  • Guest

    Damn right I know about Freemasonry, and I consider it an honor to expose it for what it is. Worship of the intellect, represented by the symbol of fire, and the torch bearer, Lucifer. I have the right copy of Pike's "Morals and Dogma". They believe not in a god, nor a devil. That's just a metaphor. They are athiests in the strictest sense. They worship the human mind, the intellect.

    You are obviously a Blue Lodge member, and deemed not worthy to pass up the "ladder". That is why you are unaware of these truths. You probably said the wrong answer or did the wrong things during your initiations. Keep being fooled by your "brotherhood" or "fraternity".

  • flyteoficarus

    Facelikethesun, this is a really interesting expose.....Thank you for your thoughts of the time of the end. I must say i echo many of the thoughts/beliefs you have of what is going on in the world at the moment. All these comments that refer to bigoted narrow mindedness i think are the ones suffering from a closed perspective of what is going on.

    If people cannot see the dumbing down of humanity in general (yeah we may have more technology, but with no real understanding of how it works at the general populous level.......), the global movements of the 'family elite', the moves to one world, a world full of distractions and backed up with biblical prophecy.....they really need to step back, get down off their pseudo intellectual high horses and smell the coffee

    I come from a strict Christian background, but no longer buy into religion AT ALL and left it all behind me thank god many years ago. But i am a seeker of truth, a 'spiritual' person in the true sense of the word and feel there has to be a higher power that provided some of the biblical teachings regardless of the name that book goes by. So many of the biblical references you apply i can take depth and meaning from

    Kudos to you for throwing a really interesting POV about the time of the end, some great insights that i have certainly taken in and will ponder over for sometime to come..

  • politicsofgree1

    An entire documentary built around the greatest myth of all, the bible. I do believe that there are men with immense amounts of wealth consolidating their power and control over people. One need only look at the distribution of wealth to see that. This documentary is just a bunch of superstitious goofiness wrapped around a religious zealot nutty center.

    There is a concerted effort to control humanity but its got nothing to do with God, Satan, the bible or any of that Jazz but the one thing the bible does get right and was intended to pass along is that it is between the forces of good and evil. Those who are not evil are not about Satan they are simply greedy, narcissistic, ignorant and callous people who care for nobody but themselves. There that kid in the sandbox who never wanted to share.

  • facelikethesun

    thanks flyteoficarus,

    Wasn't technology suppose to make life easier? Well is life any easier? Sort of. It's actually caused us to be more lazy IMHO. And more complacent, and less patient.

    I commend you for continuing to seek truth. The Bible get's a bad rap, but one has to separate the actual content with what people have done with it (Roman Catholic Church).

    It's like the recent Aurora shooter. I know this was probably a case of some residue of MKUltra style mind control, abuse and trauma. However, if we are to go by the news reports which are suspicious to begin with, Holmes was a Dark Knight fan and used it as a template to carry out his agenda. Does that make the Dark Knight the movie evil or fans of it be painted in the same light? Not exactly. I hope you get my analogy.

    In either case, keep seeking brother. We're all seekers of truth.

    Gonz

  • http://www.facebook.com/roy.rain1 Roy Rain

    Check out on Y/T

    "Lawful Awakening: Sin and Salvation. Santos Bonacci Part One"
    this is in two parts,this guy is very good he as a site called MrAstrotheology everything in the Star's

  • Filmguy873

    Religious crap.

  • Muzungu

    The best representation of the nwo, and their agenda. It matched up a lot for me and was done in an authentic way, and gave me truely greater insight and meaning to resisting the nwo, other than yelling at tsa, or what aj wants us to do.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/KSIY3PAPK3Q4XMMXXTRMLQPAFU Sam

    20 minutes in and already this narrator's voice is doing my head in.

  • Eleute Fostanes

    I started to smell something fishy when it got religious. I'm convinced that there is some sinister force at work today but this is just plain religious lessons/propaganda to me. The motivation that these super elites have are nothing more than PLAIN GREED AND SELFISHNESS! We still are primitive creatures that needs to morally evolve.

  • Facelikethesun

    "We still are primitive creatures that needs to morally evolve." Says who? You the primitive creature? You believe in a sinister force, but a force of goodness, and love...that's religious propaganda? hmmm interesting.

  • Peter

    The original sin, if you like to call it that, is the need to understand behaviour of everything. When there is something that you cannot understand you will feel the need to have a belief that provides the explanation. It matters not what the belief is as long as it satisfies your need to feel you understand.

  • http://www.facebook.com/alan.farkas.161 Alan Farkas

    All these people who slam God are truly deceived. You want to prove God exists once and for all. Try doing what He says, and see if He doesn't show you Himself in a powerful way. People don't want to believe in a God that says, you are accountable to me, you have sin, but I made a way out for you. There is no more fear of God any more, or a scriptural understanding of what that even means. They don't need to be forgiven, their just fine on their own, thank you very much. History has proven the bible to be accurate in so many ways it's a testimony to God saying, without the spirit of God, you can't understand the things of God. They are foolish to the natural mind. They've found Noah's Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, chariot wheels on the floor of the Dead Sea, and countless other proofs, yet people refuse to humble themselves before God, which is the only real way to get His attention. This world is already under judgement, but we'll see how you all feel when that judgement hits your house and your family. I pray that then you will call on His name. I just hope it won't be to late. Those people who call themselves believers, and yet who's lives aren't changed, are pretenders.They, by their example have given Christ a bad name. If you ever run across a true believer who walks the walk, you will never forget it because God is in them and you will feel it. And you will want what they have.

  • Achems_Razor

    Right, show us your proofs! and quit with your threats! That is all I will say!

  • GetSerious

    ^ Utter nonsense sorry mate. When you die you're going to dissolve into the chemical and elements you're made up of that came from exploding stars. That's based on SCIENCE... I know it's a pesky word for weak minded people who need to rely on 3000 year old fairy tales because the thought of dying makes them sad in the heart.

    Christ doesn't have a bad name. He was probably a very influential REAL person. The people who have a bad name are the mindless fools who think he was anything other than a man.

  • Wayne334

    I tried to stay with this but after he mentioned adam & eve I had to go that story was not true & I'm sick & tired of that story maybe one day I will view the film in whole.

  • Craig

    Thank you for the time to give us that information and for anyone out there whatever you believe listen to your intuition life is NOT a competition.
    We live like slaves when all we have to do is grow food and work as a fun community!!!! Don't let monsanto take over GODS seeds that's the biggest deception we are dealing with today is all the s*** in the food won't let you become the bigger you!!! Trust in karma if nothing else but never label your beliefs just do what feels right!!! Thanks again for this awesome documentary!!!! Remember to chill and not be so quick to judge others but act in peace and you well always sleep at night. PEACE

  • TTTTTTTTTTTTTT

    I cannot get past that background noise...that weird type music. it's giving me such a headache. :( Are there subliminal suggestions in there as well as binaural waves?

  • Al Stross

    You old testament lunatic.

  • DMT2012

    Christianity must finally die, 2000 years of dementia must end. People, speak up agains the religious insanity and display Zero Tolerance toward those who have held back our species for way too long and killed millions in the process.

    Whoever made this film is blind and terminally sick.

    People, wake up and speak up so we can find our way back to living as humans, in harmony with our great planet!

  • Lester71

    Probably the best video ever made. The complete video explaining life in a confusing world, this video makes complete sense and is beyond compare. A true work of art. This video is a must for anyone who doesn't want to get fooled, but go to heaven.

  • facelikethesun

    Hey DMT2012, I made this film. So you believe that I am terminally sick. Is that correct?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/SRSBRVQIVYNI6K7XJ6UGSUURL4 Skychild

    How do we know what is not true, for we wasn't there all we can do is go off the HOLY BIBLE.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/SRSBRVQIVYNI6K7XJ6UGSUURL4 Skychild

    You would have had to been there when it was all created to seriously be able to process what you are claiming, it's hard to believe or follow the instruction of what one (don't) want to believe or don't understand. OK, what you're talking is what the same new-aged and doomed people are saying. Big Bang Theory. Now OK, you speak that there isn't any proof of God, and you know this right, OK? So how do you know we go back to the elements? Wheres your proof, oh cause we get consumed by maggots and eventually become skeleton? OK, but what about the soul? Oh let me guess that's a fairy tail too huh? but how do you know? See I can go on and on. 3000 years of truth overrides just a few dozen years of Big Bang Theory Atheist Styled Scientific Theory.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/SRSBRVQIVYNI6K7XJ6UGSUURL4 Skychild

    It's a shame that some of these people are so stuck in their own selfish ways that it's gonna take when it's to late for them to believe that the lord is real and he will show the universe when the time comes that he is the all mighty Lord & God. And don't forget Alan, some of those deceiving/deceived spirits they spoke of in this video are some of the same ones commenting. I will pray for them all, cause the punishment that awaits them if they don't submit to God's will is to horrific for the human brain to process. I will pray.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/SRSBRVQIVYNI6K7XJ6UGSUURL4 Skychild

    Whoever made this film is blind and terminally sick? Look in the mirror for 2Hr 31Min and 33Sec and come back and apologize. How is speaking the truth about THE LORD and pointing out evil sick? Thinking we got here from a big bang is as blind as you can get, and thinking all this began just out of chemicals is as sick as you can get. Remember this comment when your time comes, and I would love to hear you repeat what you just said. I will pray for you my brother.

  • William Brown

    Your video is awesome and true, keep up the good work and God Bless...

  • http://www.facebook.com/paperdaniel Daniel Gastelum

    Nonsense. Complete and total conjecture based on mythological themes shabbily cobbled together by another unstable brainwashed individual. Attempting to use the Old Testament, New Testament..or ANY scripture as a fortune telling device is a boorish scam of MedEvil proportions. Do us all a favor, and go back to the darkest of ages where man lived surrounded by pathetic sickness and death due to exactly this trashy film's kind of influences. Booooorish and backwards. The Bible is not a 'magick text,' nor crystal ball. And it was never intended for westerners, let alone intended for repeated translations out of its tongue...or the brutal editing it went through under Constantine's heavy hand. This documentary, if it could be called that for only the sake of a label, is pure garbage for lost souls. Get right with God, and sit through the entire Cosmos series. Then get a basic highschool chem text and familiarize yourself with the real causal universe your Creator made to house his Laws and ALL LIFE as you will know it. After you have done this basic grounding of yourself, and developed the earthly discipline you sadly lack, then look towards the heavens and maybe you will see them in their true glory. Or..remain a soulsick fanatic as you cling to the smoke and shadows of your own imagination, and the depraved agendas of others sick psychosis.

  • DMT2012

    The reality is that you, along with your Muslim and Jewish counterparts, have been passenger on a ship called 'Religion' which, for two thousand years, has been cruising around the planet, never being able to arrive at its promised destination while, along its path, killing anything and anyone in its way.

    Luckily, your ship is irreversibly about to collide with an iceberg called 'Truth' which will mean the quick death of all passengers onboard who will realize that they overpaid for a blind journey that never had a destination in the first place.

    Your sickness can be diagnosed as 'terminal redeemer complex'. You believe in a male off-planet deity who tells us to suffer in his name in order to attain salvation. You abide to insane rules which justify perpetual violence and create a victim-perpetrator scenario:

    "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, and do good to them that harm you." or "Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake."

    In other words, "Do not think that you have any rights and shut up if you're being persecuted/harmed in the name of religion. it's justified in the name of the 'loving' god.". This is true DEMENTIA!!!

    Aside from these crazy beliefs, you oughta realize that no matter what you try to sell people, at some point you gotta show some results. If Christianity were a movie series like 'Lord of the Rings' we'd be looking at 'Christianity 500 - I know we promised rapture 499 times already but believe us - Rapture is now!". Your track record is pathetic.

    Mother earth will regulate herself and will ensure that parasites like humans who destroy her will not be able to survive anymore. Only species which adapt will survive. in order for humanity to be part of that group, the sick among us, aka religious parasites, will be denied the food that feeds their insanity and thus die out.

    You and Facelikethesun are just two humans that are scared and afraid of the world. Unable to cope with the overwhelming beauty of nature, you tell yourself that you are not good enough in the image of your 'Lord' and must suffer (without ever being able to meet any of your god's expectations) in order to try and end up in some obscure place where you'll hang out with people you never liked in the first place for eternity. What a boring prospect to suffer for. Sounds to me like what you call 'Hell' has a lot more action going on. Plus, based on your thoughts, to get there all you gotta do is enjoy your precious life on this planet and stop suffering. Start living like a human being, capable of critical thinking and use your innate instincts to relieve yourself off this religious insanity.

  • DMT2012

    I'm afraid you are. See my response to your buddy Skychild. At least you can both comfort each other in your demented states.

  • joetruth12

    this movie is horrible..the entire message is, if youre not a christian you believe in the satan..who ever made this is extremely ignorant and close minded..no ones better than anyone on this planet no matter what religion. To be able to make this movie and say that anyone who believe in these things is worshiping satan takes a real self righteous person. completely ridiculous

  • William Brown

    Even after writing a whole book on here, you still sound and look like I said earlier. Talking like you know what you're talking about doesn't curve my knowledge and beliefs at all. You talk like you designed the planet and all the inhabitants there in, but you didn't. I notice you say "Your God" who is my God? Who is yours? You don't need God when you think your already Him, notice I said think young man. Open you hard headed eyes little one. Now, if what you say is true and had any meaning which it doesn't, but lets just act like it did for a moment, you wouldn't be on here TRYING to go back and fourth we me. What are you trying to defend? What are you trying to get people NOT to believe? Shall we believe in you? What can you do for your fellow human being? Call them sick and brain washed? Any psychologist will tell you a real sick person thinks everybody else is ill but them. Afraid of the world? The world is the least of my worries. It's the people of the world that believe in chance and luck as yourself. People that don't understand and yet are afraid of their own being. Unable to process the facts that are right in front of you and want to claim the good people that do to be ill. You totally lost me here my friend. All that talking you did and I didn't even see half a point. Arrogance leads people to think there isn't a higher power than them. I have to correct you, I am not a part of religion or any kind of group at all. Religions are no more than gangs to me. I singularly believe in THE higher power and I never needed to be with a million people for that. Continue to love and believe in yourself. Your eyes will be open to whats real one day, and hopefully in your case, it might not be too late young man OK? NOW PEACE, BE STILL.

  • William Brown

    Oh my I add, you can't ban the truth.

  • facelikethesun

    Actually that's a straw man. There are certainly some who worship Satan. But many don't. Many simply worship themselves/humanity. Other worship a Creator God.

    The issue is, when you look at how much of scientific and technological advancements are creating a world much like Huxley's Brave New World, the economic, political and NWO etc are trying to create more of an 1984 style society.

    The fact that both are happening should be an indication that this is more than a human conspiracy but a spiritual one. That's the argument. You can dismiss spiritual realities, but that's on you.

  • facelikethesun

    Where do you gain your objective point of reference for things like "overwhelming beauty of nature"?

    Secondly, with quotes like this, "Mother earth will regulate herself and will ensure that parasites like humans who destroy her will not be able to survive anymore." show how you're simply a Gaia worshipper believing that somehow you are more righteous than others. Quite revealing of your character.

    The rest of your arguments can fall under the category of a genetic fallacy. It simply has nothing to do with whether someone is true or not.

    And again, you say and believe in things like "Truth" with a capitol T. That means you are basing your views on a grounded objective point of reference. Where does that standard come from? What is it that you see being violated?

  • facelikethesun

    "The Bible is not a 'magick text,' nor crystal ball."

    when did I claim that?

  • William Brown

    You can't argue with ignorance facelikethesun, let them continue to laugh and wave their hand at glory. There is a time approaching, in which all eyes will be opened. I loved the Video, it can't get any truer than that.

  • DMT2012

    My point of reference is reality. Funny how you only comment on my remarks regarding nature and mother earth while ignoring the facts surrounding how destructive religion has been for humanity. You know in your heart that you are lying to yourself since you know that there is no salvation and none of the BS you propagate with our insane video has any substance. All it does is identify you to eeryone else as a sick human being whose understanding of what is couldn't be further off from the truth. I'm sorry that you are unable to see what is.

  • facelikethesun

    I addressed it all as "genetic fallacy". Because that's what all of your accusations are. Let me put it very plainly to you in an example. Stalin was raised Greek Orthodox and became an atheist. He killed millions of his own people. Does that mean atheism is false? No. It has nothing to do with whether what he believed is true or false. The same applies to all of your arguments about the historical atrocities in the name of "religion." It really has nothing to do with if the belief itself is true or not.

  • facelikethesun

    BTW

    you still haven't answered any of my questions about where you draw your objective point of reference. "Reality" is not an adequate answer because you may define it as something totally different than the next person. You need to inject some logic behind it.

  • DMT2012

    Your comments are all over the place. Take some time to sort your thoughts before trying to communicate with people. You seem very agitated by something. Perhaps it's the fact that you know that what is presented in this 'documentary film' is absolute garbage while somehow your brain! which seems to have been conditioned to believe this garbage, can't comprehend what is happening.

  • DMT2012

    What is your point of reference? You are the one that makes extraordinary claims. Where's our evidence that allows me as well as anyone else on this planet to verify that what you say is true?

  • DMT2012

    Of course it has to do with the belief itself since the belief is formulated in the bible. The bible and thus the belief itself propagates nonsense, like people to love those who harm them in the name of religion and it talks of salvation. There is ZERO evidence that what the bible speaks of has any merit at all. Thus the belief which is articulated in the bible is garbage.

  • facelikethesun

    My point of reference is God. If there is no God, there are no boundaries of morality. If there are no boundaries of morality, things like "right" and "wrong" only become relative to each individual claim, NOT having any real meaning beyond the individual.

    I bet you're saying, "I don't need God to know what's right and wrong." Well that's exactly my point. You can't say anything is right or wrong without a true external objective moral law or rule that is violated.

  • DMT2012

    Who decides that 'you can't say anything is right or wrong without a true external objective moral law or rule that is violated'?
    What is your evidence for god's existence?

  • facelikethesun

    who decides? It's just fact dude. Think about it! Can you say anything is right or wrong and actually have it mean something without us being able to reference it to something external to us?

    For example, and this is simply an analogy. You sit at a stop light and you feel your foot firmly on the break pedal. But you start to feel like your are moving backwards very slowly. Well you know it's because the car next to you is slowly moving forward, but just to make sure, you look at a tree on the side of the road to make sure you're not moving.

    That's the same thing with morality. If there is no fixed point where we draw our moral right and wrongs from, then it's as if the tree is also moving making it unclear whether you're the one moving in one direction, or if it's everything else.

    And as far as evidence for God's existence? Common bro. That question has been tackled for ages with a lot of people smarter than me giving beautiful explanations for the proof. Nevertheless, it will never fit your box of "reality" and thus deny God until you realize how closed off you are being.

    How about existence itself? We exist. Something had to cause us to exist. And we are intelligent beings DISCOVERING how the universe operates around us. The fact that we are using our rational minds to understand the workings of the world around us means that there has to be a rational mind beyond or behind the existence itself. Thus God.

  • facelikethesun

    I would be interested to hear what you define as "evidence" because I would be willing to bet that you live by things that have zero evidence according to your definition.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    Your point of reference is subjective. There are many different Gods, thus many different and often contradicting rules of what is "right" and "wrong".

    In nature there is no "right" and "wrong". Morality is invented and embedded in human culture and societies ONLY.

    No matter the point of reference, your morality is false compared to the person next to you. It is different for every human on Earth. Further more your morality is negligible when it comes to nature.

    Having said that it is obvious that your sense of "right" and "wrong" is purely man made. Your point of reference is just a psychological blanket.

  • DMT2012

    In the analogy you gave the reason why the person understands what is happening is simply based on intelligence. We don't need god's external reference for anything to mean anything. We are equipped with a brain.
    That's where the problem with religion arises since it provides references to endless things it simply can't back up. And thus the very reference, or god, it uses to determine right and wrong must be a creation of the mind. That's why so many other religions areable to have their followers since anybody can claim whatever they want and play the divinity card without any actual evidence for any of it. In my opinion that's one of the weaknesses we as humans (as we are today) have. Our minds are (too) manipulable and we haven't estalished a common way of determining truth. Hence we are being pulled in all sorts of directions as a species

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    Who are those people who gave beautiful explanations about the proof of God?

    Probably your definition for proof is quite different from what it actually means.

    The existence itself is the proof of God's existence? That is probably the most ignorant and circular statement I have ever heard.

  • facelikethesun

    Well that's all fine and dandy. But again even your own words reference an external reality. I don't think you realize this. When you say things like "based on intelligence" or "we are equipped with the brain" you are essentially referencing an external reality that is beyond us as individuals, as humanity, and ultimately as the universe.

    I agree that humans are easy to manipulate. And I agree that religion has been used as a tool to control the masses. I get all of that. But the point I am trying to make is that it doesn't change the fact of what is true. The point of deception is to use much truth and then some lie right? That little lie is what causes the problem.

    Now tell me how you have steered clear of any of those little lies? And if you knew you have zero lie in you, tell me how you know.

  • facelikethesun

    let me spell it out for you:

    And yes this is the cosmological argument but I think there is validity to it.

    1. everything that begins to exist has a cause
    2. the universe as we understand today, began to exist
    3. therefore, the universe has a cause

    from that line of logic we can draw out what would be the first cause. By definition, that cause cannot be part of this universe (time-space-matter-energy) because it's outside of it.

    or working backwards

    1. matter, regardless of how small you break it down, does not itself explain it's existence
    2. therefore, the reason for it's existence must be beyond all matter

    we know that this universe and existence itself is something we can intellectually and rationally come to understand and discover. But the fact that it has that characteristic of being rational, intelligible etc means that either, the universe itself is intelligent, or that there was an intelligent designer behind the creation of the boundaries and the laws of nature in this universe.

  • DMT2012

    Fair enough, let's agree that there is an external reality. That means is no way that there ever was a physical dude named Jesus among us and that suffering for salvation is the name of the game to be played for humanity.
    I agree, the point of deception is to use some truth and mix in some lie. The problem with religions is that the truths have been well understood as common sense by now and the amount of lie has been identified as overwhelming.

    We as a species are obviously evolving. I believe that part of such evolution is to understand things better in order to form an ever better picture of what is. In that understanding religion has it's place as an example for how humans can be manipulated to believe anything. Nothing much different than advertising.

  • DMT2012

    Ok, where does salvation and praying to Jesus come in to this?

  • facelikethesun

    I don't think we are "obviously evolving". Don't think that the education system and in light of it the world of science and technology hasn't been infiltrated, first by the corruption of money and power, but also spiritually. Progress, doesn't always equal good. As the technology to do good has increased, the capacity to do evil has also increased. For example, we are at a point where a single human being can push a button and effectively kill off almost all of humanity.

    But also, there are things that have been discovered that have been tossed aside, swept under the rug, and ignored to simply continue this current system of "scientific understanding." The illusion is that science tells us ultimate reality. Well, I don't think that science itself can tell us that. In fact, scientists wouldn't ever say that. The most obvious example of this is that science doesn't prove math and logic. Rather math and logic are presupposed in order for science to work. To suggest otherwise would be arguing in a circle.

    Where does Jesus come into the picture?

    Well, it's the understanding that a redeemed world is a better place than an innocent world. In other words, Eden was the innocent world. The world we live in now, is the fallen world. The imperfect one. The one that YOU TOO believe is NOT the most ideal world. Everyone can agree to this. But the hope we have in Jesus is that He is the one who has and will free us from this fallen state into a redeemed state. Because again, a redeemed world is more ideal than an innocent one.

    Character traits like wisdom and patience cannot be given in innocence.

  • facelikethesun

    simple logic is proof. and it's not circular logic. where am i being circular? we know in our experience of reality, we live in a closed system of cause and effect. go back far enough in this cycle of cause and effect and it had to start somewhere. the answer "I don't know" is ok with me. i am simply suggesting that logically, we can infer that there was a first uncaused cause that has to in effect be outside of this material universe.

    chaos theory is definitely a good one, but again, it goes to show that there is something discoverable about the inherent workings of our universe. If it was truly something without a mind behind it, wouldn't it simply be true chaos, as in absolutely no order to the point where it is not intelligible?

  • DMT2012

    I fully agree with you on all the points regarding education system, science, progress not always eng good etc.

    With humans obviously evolving I mean that we as a living species on this planet are clearly impacted by our environment (E.g. technology, connectedness).
    I also agree on the fact that the world as is isn't ideal. The difference between you and me is that, in order to make living on this planet more enjoyable for everyone, I'd rather try and find out what is true than to just hope for something.
    That's why religion cannot do anything to better humanity's situation. To hope for salvation based on suffering is a mind game that has no practical real life relevance because there is no such thing as redeemed state. It's merely a pseudo-reality story that has zero value for understanding who we are or what is going on. The world isn't redeemed and denying it doesn't change that fact.

    Deal with that Intelligently instead of hiding behind some fantasy story.

  • Achems_Razor

    It is always true chaos, call it the "hidden reality" if you will, prof. "Brian Greene's book." Need to collapse the waveform, means if no one is looking it is not there...Quantum physics.

    There is no such thing as time, space, (spacetime) in quantum mechanics, quantum is where everything originates, our universe is one of unlimited universes brought about by a fluctuation from a perfect void, call it the Big Bang.

    As Prof. Richard Feynman demonstrated that subatomic particles traverse infinite paths through spacetime, implicating infinite histories for any one particle.

    Also many worlds theory...Ref. Hugh Everett 111

    As Richard Feynman once said..."us humans are just to small to fathom the incomprehensible vastness of the cosmos.

    And as Carl Sagan once said us humans are like the water vapor on a glass, one swipe and we are gone.

    And Prof. Stephen Hawking in his book..."the grand design' gives ample evidence with math to say that this universe came into existence from absolutely nothing.

  • facelikethesun

    Hawking defines the word "nothing" as not "no-thing" but as "some-thing". Any philosophical understanding would point this out very clearly. A vacuum is not nothing. Nothing is the non-existence.

    And so based on all you know about the nature of our reality, are you suggesting there are no intelligences beyond the quantum level? What about information itself? Information doesn't exist in the physical world, but it is carried through it.

  • facelikethesun

    Actually you are totally wrong that "religion" and more specifically "a belief in a Savior" doesn't affect the current world in a positive manner. You've heard the quote by Matthew Paris:

    “Now a confirmed atheist, I’ve become convinced of the enormous contribution that Christian evangelism makes in Africa: sharply distinct from the work of secular NGOs, government projects and international aid efforts..”

    The whole point of being a Christian is to be salt and light unto the world. Salt to preserve the decay, and light to reveal true hope that exceeds any physical ailments.

    The bottom line is that you need to discover for yourself who Jesus is according to the Bible. Not who He is according to atheists, government, political powers, religious institutions etc.

  • Achems_Razor

    I was not talking about a vacuum, any school child probably knows that a vacuum is charged with sub-atomic particles, that flicker in and out in Planck seconds.

    And am not talking about a nothing, I said a void, if you cannot understand my word structure, or do not want to, there is no use to talk to you.

    And did not say no intelligences, so that means you are saying there is? again show proof.

  • facelikethesun

    once again, would not logic count as proof. The very thing YOU are using to have this conversation. Let's consider for example, 1+1=2

    We all agree that 1+1=2. Now tell me where in the world or anywhere in the universe where the number two exists? Not an example of two things. But the existence of a physical number...two. I am sure you will agree with me that no such things exists. It's a concept, an idea used to describe a physical phenomenon. Correct? This makes logic and numbers for example, something that is not physical, but is the culprit to understanding and rationally be able to explain the material universe.

    Void as in ex-nihilo? It's the age old debate then. What came first, the mind or the matter? I would say mind, you would suggest matter. In either case, it takes faith doesn't it?

  • Achems_Razor

    Logic=correct reasoning only...still not proof per say.

    Come on! the word 2/two is a language construct. They just gave numbers a name. Do not know what you are getting at. So what has numbers, names and language have to do with your gods?

    Ex=nihilo... The mind at birth a clean slate? absolutely! born atheists until the religee's took over, no original sin garbage.

    Faith? faith is for the weak that needs a crutch.
    You have gave nothing at all concerning a smidgen of a scientific discussion at all, have you ever read any science books? I have read bibles, there is more to the world than all of your fairy tales written in the bronze ages, you should try to be a more rounded up fellow.

  • http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

    i like that..."What came first, the mind or the matter? I would say mind, you would suggest matter. In either case, it takes faith doesn't it?"
    One thing i know, my mind is sure quicker than my body. The speed of thought may be faster than the speed of light.
    1i

  • http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

    In fact if you could measure the speed in which you see something and the speed in which you think something, which one would you say comes faster?
    1i

  • facelikethesun

    Huge fan of science. But there is a different approach from those who take everything we learn from science as "the pinnacle of understanding" and "we are discovering God's creation."

    "faith is for the weak that needs a crutch." Yet you use it on a daily basis.

    I meant the creation of the universe, not a life. And no, I actually don't think you are born an atheist. That's the biggest load of garbage ever. And no sin? Seriously. Do you have to teach a child to lie? Do they know when they're doing something wrong?

    And no I didn't mean the "word two" I meant the number two. Literally. You proved my point by differing the conversation and making it about language. This proves that you can't show me where the number two exists. That means things like numbers, and language for that matter since you brought it up, do not exist in the physical world, but are still true information. A non-physical existence. And no need to attack me personally. It has nothing to do with the conversation. Stay on point.

  • http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

    In my facts ( 1i prefers to use "my" as it is more personal), i would say that when a thought comes, it may have nothing to do with my perception of present life, a thought has no boundaries, a thought is free to be, a thought is unbounded. I judge those thoughts as acceptable or not and i decide which one i welcome and which one i fence out.
    Thoughts come from nowhere fast, very fast.
    On the other hand, "to see something" has boundaries, you won't see spaghetti monster (bahhhaahhhaaahhh it's the first time ever i use the expression... i have read so many times on TDF, it is making me laugh my assoff), especially that i work in an italian restaurant.
    Ok, what the hell was i saying?...
    Perception of life is like sourdough bread
    it keeps giving
    and we keep baking our being with it
    philosophy does bake bread!
    I am a dough nut, a kind of torus.
    1i

  • http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

    "Faith? faith is for the weak that needs a crutch."
    Define faith?
    In my eyes faith is to follow no one in particular but myself, no matter at what stage.
    1i

  • Achems_Razor

    Am not attacking you personally, don't use that crying the blues card with me, no room for that here.

    You do not think no one is born an Atheist? explain!
    Every sentient being in the universe knows the difference between right and wrong without any of your gods interventions.

    And do not tell me to stay on point, there is no point, the only point is you made claims, so the burden of proof is for you to prove your claims about your gods and about your Jesus, show proof for one thing that a biblical or Jesus the man even existed. And Josephus the historian won't cut it.

  • Achems_Razor

    Philosophy bakes no bread! But I agree with what you say about thoughts.

  • Achems_Razor

    Completely agree on that also, we make our own reality.

  • http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

    If you agree that "thought has no boundaries, a thought is free to be, a thought is unbounded" than what do you think about "I judge those thoughts as acceptable or not and i decide which one i welcome and which one i fence out. "

    Is it that if enough people start thinking differently, i will start thinking differently too and that will change what thoughts i fence out or welcome.

    Can you describe your moral philosophy? Is it a moving thing?
    The way you see life is who you are. Your moral philosophy of life bakes you into being and there's always that sourdough starter on the shelf ready to be kneaded any day.

    1i

  • DMT2012

    Again, you decide what is right and wrong according to the bible. Just blind arrogance. I discover what is according to my own ability to feel, see, think critically and to reason, not according to what is written in some book. That's where your bible and Christianity at large fail all of humanity because they cannot stand to reason and critical thinking. The miserable state of mind among Christians is proof of that since they can't reconcile the gargabe they're being fed by Christianity with their own experiences.
    The bottom line is that you need to let go of throwing around names of stuff and just start looking for yourself at what is. No book in the world and no other person can do that for you. Unless you do that you are simply someone who has out-sold his beliefs tho those of others and thus your word has zero value to me.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    You spelled it out but it is circular.

    You have a hard time accepting that universe came to be without the need of a creator, and in the same time you claim that the creator came to be without the need of another creator.

    In short according to you the universe was created, but the creator was not.

    That is circular logic and creates reductio ad absurdum and if you repeat it again it will create Ad nauseam.

  • facelikethesun

    "Every sentient being in the universe knows the difference between right and wrong without any of your gods interventions."

    We are looking at the same data and coming out with different opinions. If you are suggesting that this objective "knowing" the difference between right and wrong is a product of blind chance, then I think you have burden of proof as well. In rejecting the claim made by me, you are making a claim yourself.

    Are you saying that out of the literally infinite possibilities for the existence of a universe such as ours, and out of the rather low probability that we find ourselves on this planet as life as we know it, we got lucky? Why are we so privileged? And if we are both considering the infinite, then whose to say there is not a mind behind the matter?

    "so the burden of proof is for you to prove your claims"

    the classic dodge. But for the sake of it, I will not consider Josephus in my argument. Rather, on your point about Jesus ever even existing, where does your doubt come from? Historians throughout the centuries since the first century mention Yeshua. The claims against him are normally that of doubt in the sense that His miracles for example were just hoaxes. But never do they doubt His existence as a person who walked the earth. In fact, the concept doesn't even come about until nearly 1800 years later. So for 1800 years, historians were wrong. But all the sudden, 1800 years removed from the events, we can determine whether he was an actual person or not? Really?

    "there is no point, the only point is you made claims"

    lol. Talk about a contradiction.

    1. There is no point
    2. But here's the point!

    I respect your position. I think one thing we can agree on is that we are both seeking truth. Obviously we are on two different roads, but I love the conversations.

  • Achems_Razor

    What you are suggesting is that because of your bronze age books written by man about your invisible gods that the difference between right and wrong lays in the bibles justifications by your gods?

    Sure is a good thing that man does not follow all the horrible things that man is condoned to do from the man made books in the name of your invisible gods. You know which ones that I am talking about.

    Why do you think that your religion is right and all the other man-made religions are wrong? it boils down to the fact "because you say so" with your claims.

    You talk about infinite possibilities for our universe, at least you got something right, except it is not possibilities, it is probabilities, yes there are infinite probabilities for our universe to be in existence, look up "theory of probabilities," instead of me adding a ton of links for you.

  • facelikethesun

    "I discover what is according to my own ability to feel, see, think critically and to reason, not according to what is written in some book."

    Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't believe as you do doesn't use these skills? And this ability, you have to be able to explain how that came about and why as well.

    Ultimately, the book you speak of has been tested over time and still stands. If arguments against it are so compelling, how come the Bible hasn't been totally dismissed? You have to start pointing fingers and say the people who believe it are insane etc.

    I didn't grow up in the church or with any religion or belief system. And so when I came at the Bible, I had to look at a lot of it and see if it fit what I saw in reality. And it does. Especially when it comes to the nature or character of humanity etc. It's eerie in fact. It made me very uncomfortable at first. But as I've studied it more, the more I realize how true it really is. It has also made a huge positive impact on my life. Life is by no means perfect, but the freedom you encounter is truly remarkable. Call it a crutch if you'd like, but the fact is, everyone leans on something whether you want to admit it or not. One thing you need to see is the holistic ability for the Bible. It's not just about the nature of reality, but it speaks to you the person, the human being.

  • facelikethesun

    "Why do you think that your religion is right and all the other man-made religions are wrong? it boils down to the fact "because you say so" with your claims."

    Your presupposition is that all "religion" is man made. Religion is a human phenomenon. No point in getting into semantics, but I will mention that everyone is "religious" in one sense or another.

    And when did I ever say right and wrong is determined by what the bible says. The Bible is not a manifesto. It always surprises me that critics think we as believers in the Bible consider it a to do and not to do list. Far from it. The claim is that the Bible reveals the character and plan of God and thus the spiritual nature of our reality.

    Now I get it, you dismiss all things spiritual because it can't be "proven". But I still haven't heard you answer any of my questions. I have asked several of them and you come back with a statement that's not even accurate.

    As far as theory of probabilities, do you believe we live in a closed system of cause and effect, or is it infinite "probabilities"?

  • facelikethesun

    It's not circular logic. You presuppose that the creator "came to be." That's your mistake. The Creator would never "come to be" because He simply, "was and is." There is no starting point to the Creator. It's the foundation to all that is created.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun.

    But that is just your arbitrary decision without logical reason. If we would follow the logic (which you prefer) you already lost.

    If you're allowed to say "God simply was and is", why we're not allowed to say "the universe was and is" or "the universe was created out of nothing."

    You just decided to arbitrary stop the circular argument at a point. Why not stopping the argument somewhat deeper, like: The Creator of the creator of the universe was and is.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    "The claim is that the Bible reveals the character and plan of God and thus the spiritual nature of our reality."

    If that is your claim, you should you know that there are millions of believers who interpret the Bible literally. Some of them even think that the Earth is 6,000 years old.

    Having said that, it is clear that the Bible is the most misinterpreted and abused book in the world.

    The ground for that phenomenon is very obvious. The Bible is written in extremely vague language, edited, translated and distorted numerous times through history. That gives the birth of thousands of Christian sects, and that makes you (believe it or not) just one in many who (mis)interpreted the Bible.

    You can claim that your apologetic position is the correct one, but many of your fellow Christians will disagree. Not just Christians, but anyone who belongs to any other faith will disagree with you.

  • facelikethesun

    what's the goal here? for world wide consensus on what I happen to believe? I already know that's not going to happen. Nor is that the goal. In fact I welcome the different views. it's what gives humanity vibrance and individuality.

    I understand your concern and dangers of basing life on a religious text. But once again, that is no proof to whether any of the claims are correct or not. See you sit outside of the text and declare it all wrong period. Instead, why not actually get into the text and look into the different views going on. No one has it all right. If it was, we'd have it all figured out. It's like nature. Would you say science has figured out all the workings of nature? Hardly. That would be arrogant.

    to your other post, you are allowed to say that the universe was and is, and that the universe was created out of nothing. but again, the same burden of proof falls on your end as well then. as I've mentioned, the evidence we look at is the same. How you interpret it is different. These are mostly determined by presuppositions. By declaring that the universe was and is, and that the universe created itself out of nothing, you are saying the universe itself is God. That it has the power to self create. Which has a lot of logical problems. How does the non-existence randomly pop into existence?

    You can approach it with a state of pure innocence and ignorance and look at the data and suggest, there are no gods or god because there doesn't appear to be one. On the same preface, you can look at the systematically defined rules and laws that govern the universe and nature and say, someone or something made it this way. I wouldn't say that one view has a substantial advantage over the other. There are solid arguments form both sides of the fence. But I suppose we will all find out one day won't we?

  • DMT2012

    Are you kidding me? The ability to feel, see, think and reason is innate with all human beings.

    "Are you suggesting that anyone who doesn't believe as you do doesn't use these skills?" Anyone who bases their beliefs about an ever changing world on one book that's 2000 years old certainly isn't using these skills.

    "Ultimately the book you speak of has been tested over time and still stands. If arguments against it are so compelling, how come the bible hasn't been totally dismissed?" The only thing about the bible that has been tested is that it is total fantasy/fiction. How come people are still smoking and drinking alcohol at levels that kill them? How come people blow themselves up in the hope to go to heaven? How come you pray to an invisible off-planet deity and tell yourself that you are never good enough in the image of your male creator? How come you believe in a divine plan which your god executes no matter what and still pray? Why pray if your prayers can't do sh*t about the divine plan?

    Just because things are still happening on this planet doesn't mean that they have anything to do with sane human behavior. Just because they haven't been eliminated doesn't mean they are healthy for the survival of our species.

    Humans are the only species that consciously preys on each other. There are no other animals on this planet who, consistently and on a large scale, kill each other. That's our problem. We are still self-destructive and religion has clearly perpetuated such behavior, for example by forcing non-believers to convert or die. That's why religion must stop, it is an illness that befalls humanity.

    Your views are pathetic in that they exemplify how our human brains are manipulable to believe anything. You are like a little kid who just doesn't want to let go of the Santa Clause story. Only that the fantasy you believe in actually kills other human beings which is why people like me and many others oppose your propaganda. Your religion is a constant struggle which has no chance defending itself against the truly human mind.

    Whether or not humanity will ever fully wake up from the religious insanity remains to be seen. Regardless, just know that your film contributes nothing to making the world a better place. This is my last comment to you and I will not respond to any further responses from you.

  • facelikethesun

    the same antagonistic rhetoric.

    that's all you have. and you certainly define for yourself what right and wrong are etc. and then impose it on everyone else. You do realize that in essence you are declaring yourself as God by doing that right?

    I think until you realize that, you're going to stay blind to the other possibilities. That it's a miracle in itself that the universe and life and all of its beauty and awe can inspire us to be thankful for our lives. And this feeling of thankfulness is to the one who actually gave us this life. Now there are plenty of those who abuse privileges, power, etc. Now the Bible tells us that this thing you see as so evil, "killing each other etc" is a human heart issue. NOT a systematic issue whether it be political economic etc. Those are the effects to the root cause. The human heart. If you disagree, that's fine, but I guarantee that if you became the ruler of the earth, you would run into choices and decisions that inevitably would cause harm and destruction in one way or another.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    There is one difference though, between those two worldviews.

    The first one appeals to the authority of one old book, which we've established that it was edited, translated, modified and written in language pregnant with all sorts of meanings.

    The second one appeals to the authority of science, which deals with the scientific method. There is no question that it is the best tool ever devised for unlocking and describing the secrets of the nature.

    The choice is yours whether you'll believe the parables or the actual scientific data. Some people believe in parables, some people tend to be rational as much as possible.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    you claim that the universe is created and this creator is the god of the bible. can you back that up? i am looking for positive proof not an attack on other explanations. please don't ask me to prove you wrong as that is not how a rational approach to the truth should go.

  • facelikethesun

    Again, science is limited to explanations that only fit it's own paradigm. Mainly that there is a material explanation, and if there isn't, either there isn't an explanation, or we don't know yet.

    Furthermore, once again I want to say that science presupposes math and logic. Without math and logic, science doesn't work. It hearkens back to the question, which came first, the mind or the matter?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    I didn't say science is unlimited and all knowing. On the contrary it is very limited and knows very little.

    On the other hand you, without any proof (except your own subjective reasoning), claim that you're intimate with the unknown. And you're making attempts to describe and quantify the unknown, all that with the support of one single book.

  • facelikethesun

    a book which is a collection of books written over 1500 years of time and remains consistent.

    It's been translated once. Most english renderings are taken straight from the original language. And it has not been changed. it would be way too easy to show it.

    If I am not mistaken, in the NT, there are about 400 words which are up for scrutiny and textual criticism. And all 400 of these words don't change the central message.

    personal experiences have something that is valid to me as well. You never accept personal experiences aside from your own so I can tell you about mine until I'm blue in the face, but it won't matter to you.

  • facelikethesun

    well, i could get into Bible verses that seem to be describing in ancient rhetoric things we now understand through science. But that of course you might consider to be simply vague interpretations. But just as an example:

    Isaiah 45:12 says
    "I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host."

    it's just interesting that God here would say that he "stretched out the heavens" which could be describing an expanding universe in ancient rhetoric.

    There are lot's of Scripture that has this sort of reference. And it's quite remarkable.

    Another way is prophecy. How would a being outside of space and time authenticate his message? by writing history before it happens. Now again, you can chalk it up to fanatic interpretation, but when you look around, and you look at what's been spoken about thousands of years ago, if anything, it should make you consider the possibility, that the Bible is true.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    but what about other passages that do not correspond with what we know (will supply if necessary)? what about the claims ofother religions that state the same thing? whay makes them wrong and you right? if i give you verses that condone rape,incest,infanticide or slavery will your answer be that it is " simply vague interpretations." or out of context? or is it that you know what parts are true and what parts are not? and do you not see that claiming that the bible proves god and god proves the bible is circular?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    What do you mean by consistent? From that book sprung thousands of sects and all of them are quarreling who's right. That is not even close to consistent.

    The Bible was translated several times (Greek, Aramiac, Latin and Hebrew ), but it was also edited and moderated many times. Plus there is quite amount of forgery in the NT. The authors of some of the books are not the ones they claim to be. Not to mention the vast amount of passages that encourage and approve murder, slavery, racism, sexism, war, genocide, incest, discrimination etc.

    The premise is simple. You base your life and belief on one single book, with its "qualities" mentioned above. Others tend to widen their views on the world. That's it.

  • Achems_Razor

    In Isaiah 45:12 you say..."it's just interesting that God here would say that he "stretched out the heavens" you are talking about God in the first person, like your God actually said it, when in actuality it was a mere mortal writing in a book. Was that mere mortal God himself, where did he get that info, or was he merely hallucinating, or was he making up part of the greatest story ever told? A figment of his imagination, a fairy tale of grand proportions?

  • facelikethesun

    I am sure you've heard this rebuttal before, but it's simply true. Historical and cultural context plays a huge role in understanding what occurred in the Old Testament. I can give examples if you'd like.

    I don't dismiss what other religions state. In fact, I think at some level they are tied together. In other words, if you look at ancient history, there are account of "gods" coming down form the "heavens" or the sky and teaching mankind things like reading, writing, etc etc the foundation to civilized society etc. The Bible takes these accounts and gives what I believe to be the accurate account.

    and as far as the circular argument, i don't claim that the bible proves God and God proves the bible. I say, the Bible describes what we experience in the real world, both on a personal level and as society as a whole. And it does so on several levels before they come to be, and therefore, it authenticates it's author.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    you stated "but it's simply true. Historical and cultural context plays a huge role in understanding what occurred in the Old Testament. " but that is only true if the writings are inspired by man explaining the morals and understanding of the time. if an all knowing god wrote/inspired the bible and these moral teachings are unchanging then wouldn't these things always be wrong? are gods morals subjective or objective?

  • facelikethesun

    the moral lesson is only part of it. ultimately the larger story is redemption. The Old Testament is filled with morally challenging situations. It's not "kill for the glory of killing." It's more reality and showing how we can never attain God's standards. it also alludes to the grace of God. Why in the world would an all knowing, all powerful, all perfect God, if He existed want anything to do with us humans? Well luckily there is a love there that is the transcending quality of the entire Scriptures.

    Imagine being in a situation where you have a lever for the railroad tracks and your child jumps onto the road and you can't get to him. If you pull the lever, your child dies, but the hundreds of passengers on the train survive. Don't pull the lever, and your child lives, but hundreds in the train crash and die. What do you do? This is the sort of moral dilemma God reveals to us in the OT and throughout the Scriptures.

    I think if you approach the Scriptures as a piece of literature that contains and paints truths both literally and artistically, lots of it will become clear to you.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    do you have any actual proof for this god and his hand in creation? please i am asking for actual proof not analogies and vague passages from a book that contradicts itself,history and logic. written by unknown authors ,edited over and over.translated into and out of multiple languages, interpreted for every generation but apparently wrong every other time but you got it right this time?

  • DMT2012

    Fabrication (as per Wikipedia definition):

    A fabrication is a lie told when someone submits a statement as truth, without knowing for certain whether or not it actually is true. Although the statement may be possible or plausible, it is not based on fact. Rather, it is something made up, or it is a misrepresentation of the truth. Examples of fabrication: A person giving directions to a tourist when the person doesn't actually know the directions. Often propaganda is fabrication.

    That sums you and religion up.

  • DMT2012

    The Criminal History of the Christian Church

    As it waited in the wings of pagan Rome, the Catholic Church was already marked by corruption, violence and sexual scandal.

    The fanatics of Christ proved useful to an ambitious prince who set his sights on absolute and undivided power.

    In their struggle for power, Christians waged their own "civil war" in which a Catholic trinitarian nonsense triumphed over Arianism. This so-called 'orthodoxy' suppressed and persecuted its 'heretical' opposition.

    The intellectual centres of the empire were ruined by murder and prohibition and the Roman world sank into ignorance and superstition.

    The Church expropriated the resources – both human and material – which might have defended Roman civilization. While an indolent army of clerics lived on the state, the impoverished legions degenerated into a peasant militia.

    Once a particular Christianity – hierarchical and authoritarian – became wedded to the Roman state, it became a force of brutal repression.

    The "Church Fathers" transformed Romano-Hellenic culture by bigotry, anti-Semitism, censorship and intolerance.

    Law was replaced by Divine Right, scientific method criminalized, ancient medical knowledge lost for a millennium.

    The barbarian tribes that overran the weakened Roman Empire were, for the most part, Christianized; the forces that opposed them, pagan.

     

  • DMT2012

    Jesus - The Imaginary Friend

    Christianity was the ultimate product of religious syncretism in the ancient world. Its emergence owed nothing to a holy carpenter. There were many Jesuses but the fable was a cultural construct.

    The nativity yarn is a concatenation of nonsense. The genealogies of Jesus, both Matthew's version and Luke's, are pious fiction. Nazareth did not exist in the 1st century AD – the area was a burial ground of rock-cut tombs.

    With multiple authors behind the original gospel story it is no surprise that the figure of "Jesus" is a mess of contradictions. Yet the story is so thinly drawn that being a "good Christian" might mean almost anything.

    The 12 disciples are as fictitious as their master, invented to legitimise the claims of the early churches. The original Mary was not a virgin, that idea was borrowed from pagan goddesses. The pagan world knew all about virgins getting pregnant by randy gods: The Mythical "Virgin Mother".

    Scholars have known all this for more than 200 years but priestcraft is a highly profitable business and finances an industry of deceit to keep the show on the road.

    "Jesus better documented than any other ancient figure"? Don't believe a word of it. Unlike the mythical Jesus, a real historical figure like Julius Caesar has a mass of mutually supporting evidence.

    The case for a mythical Jesus – Nailing Jesus. Book review: Ehrman - Did Jesus Exist? Popular scholar recoils from the abyss. A rescue mission for the "Jesus of history" – The New Apologists.

     

  • DMT2012

    A Brutal Superstition Spreads Across Europe

    The extortions of the Church grew into racketeering on an Imperial scale. Predators replaced the puritans.

    By aggressive warfare, Christianisation of the heathen tribes followed. In Spain, the German lands, Britain, and Ireland, the despots of the Church imposed their tyranny.

    A triumphant Christianity was the active agent in destroying knowledge and access to learning. An ignorant and impoverished population was more readily subjugated by Princes of the Church. The civilization that had stretched from the deserts of Arabia to the highlands of Scotland reverted to a primitive village subsistence.

    Remarkably, the last pagan kingdom was eradicated as late as the 15th century.

    In a world run by clerical gangsters, the writ of Holy Mother Church was enforced by sadism and torture (take a peek at a noble archbishop's Tariff for Torture, 1757.)

    For more than a thousand years, the henchmen of Christ inflicted a cruel barbarism on every community they encountered.

    Women, fortunate to be domestic slaves, might find themselves in enforced celibacy, joyless marriage or burnt as a witch. Roasting heretics became popular entertainment and a religious duty. Fancy dress is an essential element of the religious circus.

  • Achems_Razor

    Good stuff, now I will have to try and get "Ehrman - Did Jesus Exist" book as suggested by robertallen1.

  • facelikethesun

    you are the proof. existence is proof as I've mentioned several times throughout this thread now. the problem is your definition of "proof." You need physical, material proof. But that simply doesn't make logical sense. You know that 1+1=2. You don't need physical proof for that. You will never find God so long as you only determine reality through the box you've created for yourself. Think outside the box.

  • facelikethesun

    wow. this is your proof against Jesus? that is extremely weak. all of the references has a presupposition that the Bible is wrong. Of course you can justify anything if you approach anything with such presuppositions.

    The fact is, the day you die, you will find out that either you were wrong, or if you were right, you wouldn't know it.

  • facelikethesun

    Ehrman is totally dishonest with his data. He uses very old arguments and tries to use them to appeal to the masses.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    why is existence proof? while i do not claim the knowledge of all scientific theories necessary to make claims that they are right. i do however know enough in some areas to claim certain theories and facts to be far better than the biblical explanations. as for the others i tend to state "i don't know" when i have incomplete knowledge or insufficient proof. i find that approach better then "god did it but i can't prove it." speaking of "physical, material proof" are you willing to admit that god did not manifest himself physically or materially? if he did then we should be able to test that and if he didn't then we have more things that the bible got wrong

  • Achems_Razor

    I do not know that, have not read the book yet. And how do you know that? By some creationist website? Have you read his book?

  • facelikethesun

    "i do however know enough in some areas to claim certain theories and facts to be far better than the biblical explanations."

    -If the bible was written as a science text book, i would agree with you. but it wasn't. There is a poetic element to the text. the spectrum ranges from, "it totally describes reality as science has discovered it" to "you can take any poetic rhetoric and make it fit into anything else."

    I do believe God manifested as a man named Jesus of Nazareth in the first century. And this claim has been tested several times. To suggest He didn't walk the earth is irresponsible scholarship. Claims of his deity can be declared through the death, burial and resurrection account. Take a good investigation into the resurrection account and find out whether it holds up to scrutiny. I believe it does. With the methods of which history was recorded, and the consistency of the external elements to that event, as well as what historians of all presuppositions, religious or not, agree upon suggests a strong case for it actually happening. People who say it didn't have to force feed theories into the known accounts of the event.

    Check out the the work of Gary Habermas. He does the minimal facts approach to defend the resurrection. Worth looking at.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    Have you asked yourself why do you actually believe in those stories?

    Why not believing in Mohammad for example. One night he was flying from Mecca to Jerusalem. Isn't that a miracle and proof of a God sent man.

    Or why don't you believe in an African God Boshongo who literally vomited up the Sun, Earth and everything else.

    Haven't you consider that maybe Jews are right. Perhaps Jesus was only an ordinary guy who was hanging out with the poor, the prostitutes and the sick.

    Or why don't you believe in the philosophy of Buddha.

    I bet you find all those religions ridiculous, because they claim some unbelievable things. They just don't correspond with your line of reasoning.

    The answer is simple. You've being brought up within a culture/region where people practiced one particular religion. Even if that is not true, at some point you were heavily influenced by people who are practicing that particular religion.

    There is one more approach though. That is you've studied in details almost all religions in the world, and on your own, you came to conclusion that one particular religion is right. But I doubt that is the case.

  • facelikethesun

    well I grew up in a home that didn't talk about religion or spiritual things whatsoever. By high school I called myself an atheist. I took world religions classes in high school and college. My major was sociology and thats what I have my BS in.

    It was actually a combination of a biology class and a sociology class my junior year that started me on the journey of trying to figure out what's true. I thought buddhism was pretty cool for a while. Then I got into some new age teachings especially through the conspiracies being discussed in the last decade after 9-11.

    I actually used to be quite antagonistic towards religion and Christianity especially. What I realized was that I was being very hateful towards Christianity in particular so I began to look at what it's claims were and if the rhetoric against it are true.

    One by one, the arguments that seem so compelling and "logical" began to fall apart and what emerged was the remarkable truths the Bible spoke of not just in the sense of the material world, but more in case of the character of humanity as a whole.

    I don't actually believe that all other religions are a lie or that are 100% false. I believe that each one is trying to describe through their cultural setting, what really happened. Now Boshongo vomiting the universe into existence might sound like a stretch, but it doesn't hold up under what we currently know about the universe.

    Whereas the first line of Genesis is filled with truths.

    "in the beginning (time), God created the heavens (space) and the earth (Matter)."

    This is by looking at the Hebrew words written in the original language. Think about this for a moment. Matter could not exist without space and space cannot exist without time. There is order to this verse that seems so ancient and irrelevant.

    And when things like the big bang became more and more accepted, it shows there was a definite "beginning" to the universe right? That's just a small example, but it's an example of how these things fit into our reality, again not just in the sense of the material world, which again is described through poetic rhetoric, but more importantly to the human being, the character, the mind, etc. This is where the Bible is most applicable. Not in the mechanism of which the universe was created etc, but rather in the personal application.

    This along with discovering the various prophecies both fulfilled and unfulfilled and relating it to the world around us that made me really come to believe this is true.

    Think about it this way, 50-100 years ago, people who studied the bible had to look at a prophecy like the "mark of the beast" and really speculate. For example, "the mark of the beast will be a mark on the forehead that is needed to sell and trade blablabla"

    Well today, we look at many different things like the Sentient World Simulation project, Utah Data Center, RFID, bio-surveillance, transhumanism, technocracy, etc etc etc and it's almost like looking back and saying, "...yep...kinda sounds like the mark of the beast...we should probably keep an eye on that."

    Or about the verse in Daniel that says nearing the end of the age, "knowledge will increase". Well knowledge has exploded in the last century and is continuing to grow exponentially.

    What about Jesus saying, "as in the days of noah, so shall it be in the coming of the son of man." Well what was happening in the days of noah? Genetic manipulation which caused the flood. What are we doing today? gene manipulation and talks about transcending our humanity etc. Human-animal hybrids being grown in labs in the UK (this is public info) etc. Again, its happening.

    Jesus saying there will be "wars and rumors of wars." Now common. This one if too easy. And Jesus even says that this will NOT indicate the end, just the beginning of the end. The birth pangs.

    I could go on and on. The point is, God uses prophecy to authenticate Himself. He wrote history before it happened.

    As for the Jews not accepting Jesus, this is a big topic, but I think for one, there is a misunderstanding of who Jesus was (he did not come to abolish the law, but that's what many Jews say he did), and the first century Jews wanted a ruler king to conquer Rome. That was the standard. Ill take a break here.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    you stated ". Take a good investigation into the resurrection account and find out whether it holds up to scrutiny' i have but i will ask you
    1.how many women were at the tomb?
    2. was there an angel there?
    3.how many guards were there?
    4. what was said to the women?
    5. did the women tell anybody?
    6.was there a talking cross there?
    7.was the stone already rolled away?
    and so on the answers to these questions change according to what part of the bible you are reading. just so you know i do believe a man existed that these myths are based on. again if the bible is open to interpretation and you pick and choose what is meant as literal and what is not how do you know your interpretations are correct?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    You're imagination is working in turbo mode. Connecting some Bible passages with the Big Bang, gene manipulation, bio-surveillance, increase of knowledge, etc., is simply one big self deception/manipulation.

    It is beyond any rational thought and I'm baffled about how is it possible someone even to begin to think that way. I'm wondering how did you manage to get into that kind of loop.

    But on the other hand it is not that surprising. For example some Islamists claim that the Quran is riddled with many passages about the space, big bang, embryology, etc. Go figure.

  • facelikethesun

    "It is beyond any rational thought..." what rational am I violating? The bottom line is that the theistic worldview operates under a different set of rationality. If there is a God that is personal, then a virgin birth is not irrational. Resurrecting from the dead is not irrational. It should make you wonder why throughout the old and new testaments, the Bible talks about "reason." Giving a "reason" for the things we believe. Events happenings so that there is evidence for God etc.

    I take it you also accept the current institutionalized version of human history. There are lots of evidence to suggest there are some major problems with this view, yet they are not considered because it would shatter the current academic establishment. One giant confirmed and the theory of evolution get's thrown back to square one.

  • facelikethesun

    first thing to consider. it's interesting how we don't at all have the specific details of an event that occurred for example on July 4, 1776, yet we as Christians are expected to give full details on an event that occurred over 2000 years ago. No other day in ancient history has been examined and tested like the empty tomb so considering all other ancient historical accounts of a particular day in antiquity, I think we have more than sufficient evidence.

    Second, there are no contradiction with the number of women who were at the tomb. The Gospels are supplementary not contradictory. One account records Mary, another records Mary and others etc. If one had said, "only Mary was there" and another said, "Mary and others were there" then there would be a clear contradiction. Again, not even the skeptical historian would use this to try to tear down the empty tomb. Similar things could be said about the number of angels. And the question of were they angels or men? Go read Genesis 18-19 and you will get your answer.

    The Bible is NOT open to personal interpretation. In fact I am very critical of such renderings. There is something called hermeneutics which examines the text using exegesis (extrating the meaning from the text) vs. eisegesis (putting meaning into the text). When you approach the Bible using this method, there are far less alleged contradictions and far less problems and splintering views. It is true that as time has gone on and we discover more manuscripts of the Bible etc, we have gotten better at determining the proper exegesis of the text.

    Consider the Constitution of the US. The issue we have today is that our government sees the Constitution as a "living document" that has different application to us today than it did when it was penned. This has caused for the erosion of the basic fundamental principles allowing government to define it however they wish. Same issue has occurred with the Bible throughout the centuries. But I digress.

    While I won't say my interpretation is the "ultimate correct one" I will say that amongst those who both love and hate the Bible, there is a level of consensus that is being developed, especially regarding the empty tomb of Jesus.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    yes they do contradict each other. when you state "The Gospels are supplementary not contradictory" you sound like every other apologist. what about the other points i mentioned? also you state "The Bible is NOT open to personal interpretation" so accepting that and assuming the bible contains the words of god and not men commenting on their time. i have to ask do the moral lessons and actions condoned and demanded in the bible(s) apply to today? when god demands death for certain actions are they eternal commands or time specific? of if slavery is condoned should it always be allowed as the unchanging morals of a superior god?

  • facelikethesun

    good questions. i respect your position but I do disagree

    yes it is supplementary. I know you've probably heard this analogy, but let's say you have 10x 1 dollar bills in your pocket. Well if someone comes up to you and asks you if you have five dollars, you would say yes. If someone asks you if you have 7 dollars you would say yes. If someone asked if you had 10 dollars you would say yes. Are you lying when you answer yes when you are asked if you have 5 or 7 dollars? No. The same applies here. The text does not indiciate exclusivity with the number of women who were there. It never states, "Only Mary was there." You have to assume that's what it was saying. Another example could be something akin to "Neil Armstrong landed on the moon." Well was he the only person who was there with him? No. Another example, "Michael Phelps is swimming the 200 meter butterfly tonight." Is he the only person swimming it? The same applies with the Gospels.

    The bigger point that you miss it the fact that woman were even recorded as the ones who discovered the empty tomb. If the accounts were fake, they wouldn't have used women. Culturally speaking, they were not viewed as credible sources. This is very significant.

    The number of guards is quite irrelevant. The basic understanding based on the text is that there were AT LEAST two. Probably more. Matthew 28 states that "...some of the guards."

    I relate this to the number of wise-men when Jesus was born. Many people assume there were three wise-men. In fact, there is no number listed. It could have been anywhere from two to who knows...twenty, thirty, forty? It's really irrelevant.

    "i have to ask do the moral lessons and actions condoned and demanded in the bible(s) apply to today?"

    good Q. I mentioned earlier in the thread here somewhere about how God's moral character, especially in the Old Testament is that of a father who is protecting his children. Imagine being the father with your family constantly being threatened to be destroyed by all other families you come across. This is pretty much the situation going on in the Old Testament.

    Also, they are always morally difficult situations. The mistake is to assume that there is a one-to-one ratio of "action=moral lesson." Rather, the Old Testament is filled with situation after situation that show the fact that God is God and we are not. In other words, isolated situations commanded by God may seem to the limited human mind, immoral. However, the bigger picture is that is was THE MOST moral things one can do. It's akin to the guy who got his arm stuck under a large rock. Cut off the arm and live, or keep the arm in tact and die? These are the kinds of moral difficulties that God describes in the OT and the NT really. In fact, Jesus is much more harsh in the NT than Yahweh.

    So to answer your question directly, "do they apply today?" the answer is both yes and no. Do we find ourselves in difficult situations where we might have to do something that may seem immoral in a vacuum for the greater good? Yes. We face these dilemmas daily. But at the same time, do the situations the Bible describe condone killing and murdering at any cost? No. Absolutely not. If you understand the bigger picture going on, hopefully you will see that they are situational events with universal moral application.

    "when god demands death for certain actions are they eternal commands or time specific?"

    I hope I addressed some of that above, but to drive home the point, the entire narrative of the Old Testament is about God protecting His chosen people (BTW, the chosen people aren't special by any means...they screw up constantly and fail to follow God's commands without end. They are merely the people God chose to work through to bring about the Savior for the entire world.) The protection was necessary so that the Messiah will come. Now think about this for a second. God says there will be a Savior back in Genesis 3 in the Garden of Eden. And God keeps His promises. So essentially for about 3000 years, God had to protect His chosen people so that the Messiah would come. This is remarkable and should help paint the picture of the "bigger" picture. Not just individual cases. Let's take this for example:

    "Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him." Leviticus 24:14

    For this concept, consider modern day executions. Do we want anyone to commit a crime? No. But does it happen? Yes. Do you see justice in executions? Well that's up for debate. The true logic behind this is not God being an egomaniac declaring death to anyone who speaks evil of him. Rather it's setting up harsh rules so that people consider the consequences if they are thinking about committing an act that is detrimental to the family.

    "if slavery is condoned should it always be allowed as the unchanging morals of a superior god?"

    There are a couple of issues here. First, slavery in those days was not the same as the slave trade from Africa we saw in the America's. Being a "slave" was actually sought after by many people because not only did it mean they had a job, but it meant they had shelter/food/cloths and an opportunity to raise a family etc. In fact, there are scenarios where slaves are released but decide to remain with their masters in the Bible.

    Second, on the heels of understanding this, slavery wasn't "condoned" as you see it. It was simply part of culture as I stated and it wasn't a negative thing as we see it in the 21st century. It's akin to being a maid or Mr. Belvedeer.

    And let's not forget that God commands people who have slaves to treat them well.

    Now this sort of makes your question moot. If you think having maids, bell boys, or a housekeeper is morally wrong, then you might have an argument there. Otherwise, it's just a straw man.

  • facelikethesun

    wow that has nothing to do with what I wrote but if you want to go there...let's go there.

    Logically speaking, how or why does the size of earth in relationship to the universe and the alleged "shortness" of the time we've been on the earth have anything to do with God? Really. Please explain. You are imposing merely an opinion about God by suggesting..."you do not seem to grasp the significance of how small we really are"

    All the more awe. Think about the fact that we can even understand how physically small we are in comparison with the size of the universe. In fact, Bible authors seemed to grasp this idea well before science ever said anything about it...

    "Behold, you have made my days a few handbreadths, and my lifetime is as nothing before you. Surely all mankind stands as a mere breath!" Psalm 39:5

    Now to you this equals no God. Again, why? Would it not be even more significant that God would love us so much that He would give us life? Be grateful for each breath, each day, each moment. With your paradigm, not only does this lead to nihilism...to which I say, why even live and be moral etc? And also, again, you seem to indiciate that God has to be limited to a physical being by implying our insignificant size compared to the universe.

  • Achems_Razor

    Again I say unbelievable! you did not read my post properly, you think we invisible carbon units are made in the image of your gods, and everything was just made for us, when the universe has been here for over 14.6 billion years and the earth is only 4.54 billion years old and human have been here only about 10-20 thousand years which is a twinkling, and that is after they came swinging down from the trees from a common ancestor.

    Of course your Genesis has a different version. But it seems that evolution and science in my books prevails in that regard.

    You are the one that is saying your god is limited to a physical being by killing his only begotten son a white blond blue eyed human.

  • facelikethesun

    never did i mention anything about Jesus' race. Second, an infinite being would be able to manifest, die and come back to life. We don't see anyone else dead for three days come back to life do we?

    and evolution has not been proven at all. its the standard in science due to people who don't want to lose grants and chairs. anytime new evidence to the contrary shows up, it's either swept under the rug, or assigned irrational claims. Good example is when they found soft tissue on t rex bones. Logically, if T Rex's are millions of years old, soft tissue shouldn't survive. But what was the scientific explanation? "Oh, soft tissue must be able to survive for millions of years." Gee, I dunno who the myopic one is.

    And Don't you find it interesting that you think we know how old the universe is in years when a year is measured by the earth, and the earth has only been around for a third of the time of the universe?

    Given uniformitarianism, the earth may not be as old as we think it is. There was a story of a construction hat that was fossilized in Australia. When they did a blind test to see how "old" it was, they declared it was over 150,000 years old.

    The point is, no matter it's your version of the ancient past, or a theistic one, it takes faith to believe in it doesn't it? No one can say for sure.

  • Achems_Razor

    You know, it seems that you do not have a clue in science matters, or biology, or any math at all when you say such things as... "you do not understand how they can measure the age of the universe in earth years." I will tell you it is basic math, algebra, calculus, etc. A high school teenager can have all that figured out pronto. Kids are very smart nowadays.

    You say evolution has not been proven at all? that is to silly to even answer.

    Am sorry to say that you do not have a clue to what you are talking about, again sorry to say, you are making a fool of yourself.

    For sure I have not seen anyone dead for three days and come back to life.
    You made a claim that your Jesus did. PROVE IT!!!

  • facelikethesun

    what I am saying is that in order for your assessment about the age of the universe to be correct, you have to assume that all the conditions and characteristics of the universe prior to man existing, and the earth existing were the same as they are now. You simply don't know that to be true. Your conclusions are just as drawn on assumptions as you accuse the theist to be.

    And as for the resurrection. Think about it. If there were "proof" which for you is a measurable, testable, repeatable process, then the significance of the resurrection wouldn't really be much would it? If I can show you in a lab that man can be dead for three days and then be resurrected, then it would not be a miracle.

    The fact is, there is proof that is suitable evidence for an event that occurred in the first century. It was just as controversial then as it is now.

    The bottom line is that your worldview does not allow the possibility of miracles or supernatural things to exist. This is the cage you are in. Free yourself from it. Think outside the cage!

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    It is the other way around. You have to free yourself from the cage. You're caught in some weird world of imagination, and to be even more bizarre you contain yourself within one old book. As @achems pointed out, you really don't have a clue what are you talking about.

  • facelikethesun

    and this conversation has officially moved away form the realm of seeking truth.

    do you believe that truth exists?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    Which truth? Yours. Certainly not.

  • facelikethesun

    my point exactly. truth has become a relative thing. There is no such thing as objective truth anymore.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    Well why are you trying to impose it then?

    And there is objective truth. It is the opposite of yours. Yours is subjective and applicable only for you, because it relies on imagination. Pure made up stuff.

    On the other hand we all know that the water boils at 100 Celsius, that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, that organisms over time evolve, that your computer works on electricity, etc, etc.

    Those a grounded objective truths. No matter what you do you can't manipulate with them.

    Your truth IS manipulation. It has no empirical or any kind of evidence, it lives only in your head, can't be observed (mathematically or physically), it is imagination.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    these slaves weren't the same as "maids, bell boys, or a housekeeper" and i cannot believe you even made such a comparison. and yes some slaves were treated as indentured servants but they were the ones among the chosen people. you could also beat your slave as long as he/she lived a couple of days then it is ok. as for setting them free yes after six years (under certain conditions) the were to be free but the owner could keep the wife and children. why didn't god just say slavery is wrong? if he knows all he would know that. your ancient books do not occupy any moral high ground as well as the actions that those who follow this egomaniac

  • facelikethesun

    lol

    i like how you include the earth being 4.5 billion years old and that organism evolve over time as part of what you call objective truth.

    things we can observe in science include water boiling at 100C, or computers being electrical etc. The age of the earth is NOT observable. No one has been around long enough to see the earth age for 4.5 billion years. Your claims are assumptions which draw from philosophical conditions. You use observations as your "proof" but really there are degrees to observations. Seeing the event happen (water boiling at 100C) is very strong. While picking up a rock and declaring it to be billions of years old is not. You're not actually observing it do anything, you're drawing out assumptions. No one has seen any species turn into another species.

    Uniformitarianism.

    Let me give you a modern day example. Imagine walking into a bathroom with a bathtub full of water. Now you need to determine how long it took to get the tub full of water. Well logically speaking, you would measure the water pressure from the faucet and then measure the volume of the tub. Let's say the faucet at full pushes out 1 gallon a minute and the tub is 5 gallons. Well you would figure that it took 5 minutes to fill up the tub. But here's the problem. You don't know how much water was in the tub before it started to get filled. Maybe the faucet was only on half way. Maybe someone got a bucket from outside and filled the tub up that way. In other words, you can't say for sure how it happened. You can only make good assumptions. This is the same problem ALL historical sciences run into. You just weren't there when it happened.

  • Achems_Razor

    Here is how you can find the age of the rock you picked up. Didn't they teach you anything in school? thought you had a degree in something or another?

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @facelikethesun,

    Don't embarrass yourself. Get yourself a couple of books and start reading. And stop with those childish metaphors from the "modern day".

  • facelikethesun

    I understand radiometric dating. But the issues remain the same with it's methods. How do you know that the amont of radioactive material being tested for a given subject or object is in its current condition due to decay or leeching? Two animals that die on the same day and end up in different climates and conditions will severely skew the data. These things aren't always taken into account. Again I say it's largely built on assumptions.

  • luciferising

    even satanists don't believe in a literal being called "satan". the term arose from a desert myth. actually read, study, and understand history, theology, and cosmology and ALL religious thinking becomes absurd. no conspiracy truly runs the world aside from greed. masons believe in god and enact rituals as supposed reminders of a grand architect. monotheistic belief systems have actually modeled their own pointless ritualism from pagan groups that came before. humans should begin accepting that THEY have all the propensity for good and evil within themselves without the need for any imaginary "invisible" forces pulling strings. truly study the hebrew scriptures and you quickly understand that "god" is an infantile, blood thirsty, capricious, misogynist. sounds a lot like a patriarchy to me.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/GLD76GBQBGGUKL343CV3ETGGRM Jose

    This documentary is so powerful and so true! It answered so many of my questions! It exposes the New Age movement for what it really is. People would rather believe in horoscopes and New age teachings. Than in Jesus Christ and the Holy Scriptures! People rather believe in a Lie, as long as it makes them feel good. People dont like the feeling of being Guilty for their sin and actions in this life. Thats why they reject the Bible, so much. But, theres sever consequences to that. Im Not judging.. Im just being real. God Bless You.

  • facelikethesun

    "even satanists don't believe in a literal being called "satan"" This is only in the modern sense of satanism as portrayed by LaVey. But in fact if you read or example Crowley, it is abundantly clear that he willfully worshiped Satan over God. Same goes for folks like HP Blavatzky and Albert Pike.

    You also have to realize that "Satan" is just a title. "The Adversary" We actually don't know his true name. The Masons believe that the "serpent" or the one commonly referred to as Lucifer, released man from the Garden of Eden with the gift of intellect.

    And your regurgitated rhetoric about the characterization of the Yahweh is simply incorrect. It shows a lack of understanding OT text.

  • luciferising

    "and the lord jesus spoke unto them saying, 'this facelikethesun is dim as a lamp beneath a basket!' afterward yahweh paused smiting an innocent and added, 'indeed you speak truth my son! he should more accurately call his production company headlikeahole!', and yea all the myriad of heavenly hosts did laugh and carry on joyously for the lord god had made a funny."

  • luciferising

    "if you really want a taste of hell, watch this film!" - lucifer

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Jon-Axl/1685174358 Michael Jon Axl

    Crazy people have the best ideas about the world. But, maybe that is what makes life so interesting, we all have our own ideas about life. Makes for an interesting ride on this roller coaster of life.

  • William Brown

    Exactly, notice you said MY POINTS, see, even you understand that I have points, and still you have none. All over the place, yes, but still very much points. Don't be overwhelmed, just seek and understand what is true, LOL poor guy it's been weeks and I almost forgot about this site but I see you still TRYING to make a point. I'm not going to be like my, very younger than me brother, he got banned from here I guess he went over the edge, which doesn't make him or me a difference, but he has a lot to learn for his age and so do you. People like you can't be taught, you have to be shown, as well as a lot of people here that share your views, and if what is shown to you everyday on this planet isn't enough to convince you, I guess you should stick to aimless, countless hours of bashing truth filled documentaries. I love you all, I just happened to check back on the video and yep, you still talking after almost a month, (sigh) I won't check back it's pointless, Peace be with you all.

  • Nick Friend

    !
    ...One abducted person relayed what an alien had told him when this abducted person asked what's wrong with our world today, the alien replied....."You ought to listen to some people who are residing in mental institutions." Always stuck in my mind did that, the more I thought about how crazy this sounded, the more I tried to understand why this would be.

    I remembered as a kid helping mentally handicapped, (the boarding school I attended, arranged trips to the local retired persons mental asylum, which were all old people) to help relieve the residents conditions, I remembered one old man who was almost at the end of his time, he said to me as we played a game of draughts/checkers,..."When the moon goes into the sun."

    He had trouble speaking and it took a lot of effort for him to speak …anyway, I thought it crazy words, then years later it dawned on me that he was talking about an eclipse of the moon and sun! Maybe this is an example of the alien’s message.

  • Alexander Tash

    Is there a connection between UFOs, alien abductions, channeling spirits, demonic possessions, the new age movement, secret societies, and satanism?

    My reaction: "MUST WATCH. MUST WATCH. MUUUUST WAAAATCH!!!!"

    Overall, nifty video. Creepy at times and makes for some really interesting discussions with strangers.

  • Alexander Tash

    Oh, and one more thing...

    facelikethesun:
    The main reason why you will never be able to fully spread this idea, is because there is only one of you and there are a couple hundred million mindless idiots who share one thing with you and that's belief in God. You are a smart, knowledge-seeking person who shares a belief with people who'd rather ignore your teachings as well. When I was raised in my church before I excommunicated myself, I was taught to ignore even people like you. It is people like you who engage me to think against the pre-determined lessons and safety nets prescribed by the leaders. You say to think out of the cage to us who are atheist or satanist or what have you, but you really should be saying it to you fellow believers- for they have been trapped in a cage for far longer than any of us. The cage? The Bible.

  • facelikethesun

    The goal is not to really "spread" this idea. It's simply to point people to investigate the truth. Mainly, the Bible and it's claims about God and the nature of our world.

    And I do talk a lot to people in the Church. They're just as in the cage as the next person. The reality is, all of us are in the cage. Some of us recognize it, and still others find the truth which sets us free. It's all about pointing to Jesus. I just happen to get there by looking at how evil has manifested in our world.

    And the Bible is not the cage, it's the truth. People who use the Bible to demand their own set of rules etc is religion. Truth is more powerful than any religion.

  • rob_and_amanda42

    I do find it amusing that the person promoting a 3rd party narrative of a supposed man-god is complaining about truth being subjective.

  • facelikethesun

    The bottom line is that if you are true to the scientific method, then evolution by in large has many problems.

    1. Natural Selection and genetic variance is often used as proof for evolution. They see small changes to environmental pressures in a species and wah-lah, evolution is proven. But this doesn't prove evolution at all. In fact, it would be irresponsible as a scientist to say it does. Rather, it proves that species can adapt to their environment to survive. It takes a major leap of faith to go from adaptations and genetic variances to goo turning into us humans. Basically, the argument of time is used to safe proof the theory which in reality has no tangible evidence.

    2. Mutations are almost always detrimental to an organism. Just think of humans. What one mutation brought about naturally has given someone extra beneficiary traits? Sometimes they gain special abilities in one area (musical savant for example) but are deficient in other areas. The human race comes in all colors, shapes and sizes. Yet we can still reproduce with each other. Again you must employ the "time" argument to suggest we come from a different species.

    3. The whole, "I think you misunderstand evolution" is such a cop out answer. I've had several discussion with pro evolutionists who say those same words and then provide a link as if to say, "here...you poor misinformed and uneducated person, read this link so you can swallow the evolution lie."

    4. Chance and time are the main driving forces if you will of evolution. Our universe formed out of chance. Then the earth just happened to form a perfect distance from the sun. Then we just got lucky enough to have h20 and from it by chance the chemical reactions just so happened to spark biological life. And by chance the goo evolved into other life forms and here we are.

    That's a lot of faith to say everything came from chance. Or maybe our faith should be placed in something greater than our own minds. Put our own humanistic arrogance aside and entertain the possibility of a God who designed the universe and made us to reflect his image and to be able to have reason, common sense, rationality and intellect to discover the ways in which the universe was designed.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    lets go through what you get wrong
    1.you state "Natural Selection and genetic variance is often used as proof for evolution." no they are not they ARE evolution. that is exactly what evolution claims. next " It takes a major leap of faith to go from adaptations and genetic variances to goo turning into us humans" please show me where evolutionary theory states that? "in reality has no tangible evidence. " if i gave you an observed,tested and repeated example of speciation would that satisfy you? if not why?
    2." Mutations are almost always detrimental to an organism." can you back that up or is that another baseless claim? "What one mutation brought about naturally has given someone extra beneficiary traits? " there are many beneficial mutations that give groups resistance to local disease, stronger bones or better resistance to altitude sickness i can give examples if you deny these things occur.
    3. i will skip this one
    4."Chance and time are the main driving forces if you will of evolution." no they are not. evolution relies on natural selection and mutations (you were closer in your #1 explanation) but you wording does give me an idea of where you get your information from. "he earth just happened to form a perfect distance from the sun. " perfect for what? and the distance can be varied and we would still survive. you bring up "humanistic arrogance" really ? i believe that the universe really does not care about us and we are nothing but star dust. you on the other hand think that the universe was created just for us and i am arrogant? also if it is so perfectly designed why is almost all of the known universe deadly to us. why without altering our environment or special protection is much of the earth deadly to us? who is this creator? what actual evidence do you have for it? do you believe this creator is one of the 25,000,000 gods that have been worshiped and why or why not?

  • Achems_Razor

    facelikethesun,

    Will just refute #4...

    You do not know if the world was made from chance or from your psycho gods or made from evolution theory or made from absolutely nothing or made from colliding branes as in string theory or from chaos theory or from hologram theory or from multiverse theory or from probability theory or from the Big Bang theory or from quantum theory. And scientists are still trying to form conclusions complete facts from a lot of these very viable theories, but at least have something to work from, show me one theory that comes straight out of the books of fallacies the bibles, only beliefs which doesn't mean squat!

    And there are a lot of "goldilocks" planets and moons in the habitable zone out there that are just the right distance and other attributes to form life, we ain't the only ones. The most prevalent is hydrogen in space and oxygen was formed by star stuff, so there you have it H2O.

  • facelikethesun

    This is super long but you asked a lot of questions. Tried to address them here:

    "if i gave you an observed,tested and repeated example of speciation would that satisfy you? if not why?"

    Speciation in a nutshell. You use a set of characteristics or traits to identify particular groups. If we get down to the bottom of it, I am sure you can show me plenty of examples that fit the rules constructed by speciation. However, speciation itself is not a grounded like any other science. What I mean by that, is that because it's man made, it's going to be fallible. I'm sure you agree with me there.

    Consider this quote from a link people constantly throw at me:

    "It’s not so surprising that these blurry places exist—after all, the idea of a species is something that we humans invented for our own convenience!"

    "there are many beneficial mutations that give groups resistance to local disease, stronger bones or better resistance to altitude sickness i can give examples if you deny these things occur."

    Ok, the question is whether these changes lead to different species. And when I say species, I mean kind. And yes while it's a Biblical term, I think it best describes reality. Small changes and even branches of a kind of animal have developed over the years. (breeds of dogs etc.) But they at large stay the same kind. I look at a chihuahua and I think that it's a large ugly rat. But I know it's a dog. Examples used in many places of evolutionary literature seem to show similar kinds of plants or animals being made, becoming hybridized, or having changes that are labelled "evolution."

    Now if that's all you're saying, then I think "evolution" is real. But that's a far cry from suggesting that we humans, animals, plants and everything else, through this same process, came to be where we are here and now. You can't say you know that for sure.

    Same goes for my belief in God. I'm sure you're thinking that. The difference is I'm willing to admit, that beyond the edge of the capacity for human knowledge, lies more knowledge, more information that requires an intelligent mind, like you and I, to grasp and understand, and thus I declare to have faith that there is someone that laid the groundworks for

    4. "...evolution relies on natural selection and mutations..."
    And again, great. But don't you still need substantial amounts of time to again show that us humans as sentient beings are a product of this process which began with no reason at all?

    "perfect for what? and the distance can be varied and we would still survive. you bring up "humanistic arrogance" really ?"

    Perfect for life on earth for us. Yes I get that distances can be varied. I get that planets of our likeness are all over the universe with the possibility of life. In fact, my worldview is totally open to this. Biblically, there are glimpses of this reality.

    "i believe that the universe really does not care about us and we are nothing but star dust. you on the other hand think that the universe was created just for us and i am arrogant?"

    Nope. Red Herring there. I don't think the universe was created just for us. I believe it was created for God. I'm pretty certain you won't be able to digest this, but it's one of those thing you have try on to understand the perspective. God made everything, he is the true author, and rightful owner of everything. Not us. We are essentially borrowing time, and are on a lease while living out our lives on earth.
    We belong to God. You are simply unwilling to admit it and even deny his invitation. In fact, I would guarantee that there are aspects in your life that have in the past, or currently requiring tremendous faith. But we won't get personal here.

    "...also if it is so perfectly designed why is almost all of the known universe deadly to us. why without altering our environment or special protection is much of the earth deadly to us? who is this creator? what actual evidence do you have for it? do you believe this creator is one of the 25,000,000 gods that have been worshiped and why or why not?"

    It's a matter of perspective. You define "perfect existence" as something different from me. I define it as "the conditions and parameters which require the universe and life to exist." That's it. Under this definition, the universe is perfectly designed because you and I exist! And we exist in a closed system of rules, laws and parameters to hold the universe together!

    "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."~Colossians 1:17

    "why without altering our environment or special protection is much of the earth deadly to us?"

    It's just the way it is dude. What makes you so desire a world where you can just go anywhere in the universe and outer space etc? Why do you believe it's unfair, or wrong? Why is this out of so many other possibilities is a hang up against believing in God.

    "who is this creator? what actual evidence do you have for it?"

    See, you have some big questions that you want answered. We all do. I am here to tell you that this Creator is Yahweh and He became a man, known to us as Jesus Christ. The evidence? At what level do you need it? Genetic evidence? CSI level evidence? Of course I can't provide it at a level you desire. But does that automatically mean the claims are untrue? Absolutely not. That would be unscientific. Rather, you should look at the evidence that is available and consider whether they reflect the possibility that claims of the Bible of Jesus Christ getting killed and then rising again from the dead really did happen.

    The areas that do have weight are historical, textual, and personal. I would even throw in archeological to some degree because they do confirm the setting of the first century. But the first three requires intellectual wrestling, not just physical. If you are truly curious, I can give you specific examples and then point you to where you can find more information in these areas.

    Historical accounts and textual accounts are intermingled, but they build off each other to paint the picture of what happened 2,000+ years ago. If the same thing happened today, I am sure the methods to get to the bottom of it would be different. But this is why I believe these things were recorded the way they were. There is room left for you and I to make a decision. And this is where the personal comes in. Have there been horrible deeds done in the name of Jesus Christ? Absolutely, I can't deny that. But the question I asked myself was, "does that mean He's not real? That there is no God? That religion is the staple of evil?" The answer is no. And I think personal testimonies all over the world of transformation and rejuvenation of life from the Gospels bare witness to this fact.

    "do you believe this creator is one of the 25,000,000 gods that have been worshiped and why or why not?"

    The evidence. Each god or gods make claims. You test them by looking around and seeing if what we know about the world around us matches each claim. For example, "sin." You would say there is no evidence for sin. Sin by definition if rejection of God. This comes in many shades and colors, some are grey, I get that. But are there people who reject God? Yes. You do. I did for many years of my life. This is a small examples but there are many claims made in the Bible that have similar connections to reality.

    One in particular that was most convicting to me is Prophecy. I find it incredible that some guy in prison 2000 years ago, and a vegetarian some 2500 years ago, both saw and wrote down what the future would look like. And I think it's remarkable that verses that wouldn't have made sense for centuries, are suddenly becoming clear in light of our current social temperament. You might say that predictions of the end times and armageddon have been happening for centuries. But the difference is, throughout history, people would read the Scriptures and look around to see what social event could be a factor in the fulfillment of the prophecy. Now, today, we look around, and go backwards. We see that the world being built around us sounds a lot like what was written some 2000 years ago. This to me is quite remarkable and deserves deeper investigation.

    This was super long, but I hope to hear a response from you.

  • facelikethesun

    Ok so a tangible way to measure if what the Bible declares is true about the universe. Well a couple things to think about. First, the Bible is NOT a science book. So you won't get the scientific method with mathematical equations and measurements about the physical world. But the claims of the Bible are as follows:

    1. God exists
    2. God made the universe
    3. God made life
    4. God made man

    Now honestly tell me what evidence would satisfy those claims? What if a guy who claimed to be God died and then rose again from the dead three days later and YOU SAW IT! Would you believe it then? What if you saw a dude transform into a bright light and ascend into the sky...would you believe it then? No you would go for some other explanation other than God exists!

    So in a way, it's moot to go through this, but I'll drop some stuff down anyways.

    There are six places in the Bible that talk about the heavens being stretched. Now the word for heaven often used in the Bible simply means space. The atmosphere and beyond. And so when we read something like "The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth..." we can see that someone or something knew both that the universe is expanding, and that the earth is made on some kind of foundation. The word for foundation is yasad and it means "to establish, found, fix." Now is the earth established and fixed? Well yes. The earth follows the laws of physics and gravity just as much as anything else we find in the universe. The Bible is saying that God was the mind that put all of this together. Our universe itself becomes the evidence for God.

    And as I mentioned in the reply to over the edge, my worldview doesn't deny the possibility of life on other planets. Not at all. It doesn't negate the possibility of God.

  • Achems_Razor

    facelikethesun,

    Sorry had to take your link off, did not work, to enter your post.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    you state "Speciation in a nutshell. You use a set of characteristics or traits to identify particular groups." and "speciation itself is not a grounded like any other science. What I mean by that, is that because it's man made" yes the classification is man made but so are classifications in geology, cosmology or any other natural science. you only question these classifications because evolution challenges your worldview in my opinion. next you state " And when I say species, I mean kind." first off you cannot change what evolution claims then find fault within your new definition and say evolution is flawed. well you can if you wish to be dishonest.but as you brought it up please define kind with some specifics so i can either explain why that is not what evolution claims or give an example. what if i claimed that jesus isn't the son of god because there is no evidence he changed oil into maple syrup ? how would you answer that? to put it as nicely as possible i think you know better but you are deliberately repeating the lies of others and have no desire to challenge evolution honestly.

    as for your religious beliefs i can honestly say that i have looked at the bibles closely and used to believe. i find the bibles to be unreliable sources of facts as they contradict themselves.history and logic. i feel that we could go round and round on this subject and get nowhere. now to be fair as you responded to me i will indulge you if you wish but i would rather not. i am actually getting tired of the religious nonsense (probably a relief to many here). i am sure others here would love to have the "god" conversation with you.

    in closing please do not misrepresent evolution. if you do i and/or others will call you on it. if your misunderstandings are honest i suggest you ask questions rather than make false assertions. if they are based in a dishonest attempt to spread disinformation i will refer you to commandment number nine.

  • facelikethesun

    "please do not misrepresent evolution."

    The same could be said about your understanding of the Bible. Please don't misrepresent it. I used to believe in evolution. It was taught to me all throughout my education. It wasn't until college that I began to question it. And now there is even documented evidence to show that there were some who wanted to use this theory of evolution as the crux to dismantle a belief in God throughout society. Take a look at The Ascendancy of the Scientific Dictatorship, written by the Collins Brothers.

    I don't say this to attack the people in the scientific community, but just speaking from what I see from the sociological standpoint, money controls the direction of "science." And those who hold the money can use the academic platforms to externalize ideas and even supply "logic" to support them.

    "i find the bibles to be unreliable sources of facts as they contradict themselves.history and logic."

    then you've been lied to. Because there are no contradictions in the Bible. Every contradiction I've investigated in the Bible have turned out to have profound and deep meaning behind them that cannot be ignored.

    I'll leave you here since you don't seem to want to address or respond to much of what I answered in the past post.

  • facelikethesun

    Just to add, when I say kind, I mean organisms that can reproduce together. I get that there are asexual organisms. But in the most basic example, a dolphin and a man cannot mate to make a dolphin-man through natural reproduction. We're getting closer to do it in labs (which I think the experiments have already been done underground), but that's the dividing line of a kind.

    I understand this is not a claim made by evolution, that a dolphin and a man can mate etc. There are some overlaps between what we juggle as Speciation, and a kind. I also understand that certain sub-sets are the ones who break off and begin to change ultimately to the point where they would not be able to reproduce with the "species" they were prior. Is there evidence for this happening in our past that led us to here and now?

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    without you defining kind i cannot address some of your post. but i will try " humans, animals, plants and everything else, through this same process, came to be where we are here and now. You can't say you know that for sure. "no i cannot but the evidence point towards evolution more than any other explanation for the diversity of life.
    "show that us humans as sentient beings are a product of this process which began with no reason at all" no there was a reason for us. we are the result of mutations that when exposed to natural selection "selected" those mutations that were better at reproducing themselves and eventually enough mutations accumulated to lead to us. if by beginning you mean the origins of life that is not a concern of evolution.
    as for the argument on the formation of the universe or the earth i am not qualified to go into any specifics. as for" the universe is perfectly designed because you and I exist! " i disagree we exist because we evolved to fit the conditions not the other way around. "What makes you so desire a world where you can just go anywhere in the universe and outer space etc? " i don't but if the universe was designed for man then why have so much of it kill us? "Why is this out of so many other possibilities is a hang up against believing in God." i have many reasons for not believing in god and this wouldn't break my top 10. the rest of your post is on the god questions and as i stated i do not wish to discuss them. but i will if you would like? if i missed any other questions could you please repeat them along with any religious questions you want as you did try to address most of mine so i will return the gesture.

  • lunablie

    20 minutes, I'm done...sounds like they're pushing Christianity on us.

  • Krockcfd

    Lol... Kinda like the same "bigotry" posted on this incredibly biased documentary website!

  • Krockcfd

    Right!... So everyone can hear your crap!

  • Krockcfd

    They're a rairty on here because this is one of the most biased "anti-anything Christian documentary websites" going....

  • Krockcfd

    "The beauty of nature is there to see and feel for anyone anywhere 24/7 ever since day one on this planet. That is truth. "

    When you make truth claim based on preference, you don't get to decide its true for anyone else but yourself...

    "Christianity as a belief has never lived and never will, especially with transparency of information only increasing."

    lol... Actually, it has, it is, and it will....

    "I'm calling out you and all people who believe in Christianity as the truth and challenge you to produce something that allows anyone anywhere to truly feel what you are proclaiming, without referring us to some supposedly supernatural book. Unless Christianity is able to walk the walk and not just talk the talk you must fully question yourself and all your religious beliefs."

    The Shroud of Turin.... Start there.... Oh, and before you throw your hands up in the air in protest and yell "forgory", do some research first, research concerning the latest Scientific Data".

    Why don't you produce something that allows anyone anywhere to truly feel what you are proclaiming is true? After all, you too have a worldview....

  • Krockcfd

    Well said..... Very well said...

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    If you click 'reply' next to someones post, your reply will come up marked with their name and a link to the post you are replying to...

    Otherwise it reads very much like you are having a disjointed conversation with yourself.

  • Krockcfd

    "you will see that In nature there is no right or wrong, only consequence..."

    For your sake, I hope you never have a daughter who gets raped.....

  • Krockcfd

    Disjointed conversation with yourself? Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? For your information, I did reply back to each individual... When I linked to your comment, there it was, standing all by it self....

  • Achems_Razor

    @Krockcfd:

    Write on top to whom you are replying too, as I have done.

    Sometimes the reply button does not work.

  • Krockcfd

    @ Achems_Razor

    I sometimes do... I will on this site from now on...

    Cheers...

  • leeadam813

    r u kidding chisr was living he was the messiah u r attributing mans actions that r flawed sinful greedy and apathetic to the religon itself christ himself lived his teachings were flawless to love thy neighbor to serve eachother to pull the plank from ur eye before removing the splinter from ur brothers he taught that evry man woman n child could be with GOD not by works wealth n crap but by faith n him n his father that judging ur fellow man is sin his message was love n grace christ said when asked why he dined with the worst of people that it isnt the well in need of a doctor but the sick christ taught pure grace and love he himself said i do not come to judge but to save the world and he asks nthing but love and faith . you r holding christs doctrine of love and grace responsible 4 mankinds horific actions man is naturally greed ridden sinful selfcentered assholes and all christ taught was him and GOD his father love us inspite of our actions and nature. the teachings of CHRIST have lived 4 over two thousand years it has provided billions of ppl with a doctrine 2 strive 4 a doctrine of pure love unshakeable grace and one that tells us 2 serve eachother the message of christ was hey ill be your attorney if you will let me 4 i have already done the time for your sin. Christ was a true humanitarian a true light in the darkness of time and over 2k years later his word and spirit truly live on.

  • puckeverlast

    i watched this with an open mind and came out thinking what a crock of crap it was. If you buy this then you think wrestling is real, tooth fairy puts money under your pillow after losing a tooth, David Icke is the messiah as he stated in the 90's, Easter bunny hid
    e eggs for you to seek out, Santa clause kissed your mother,i could keep going on. Sad thing is there are people out there that will buy it.

  • Muy07

    it's a good video and hope you continue to inform them about the true reality that we are in.. everything makes sense and is slowly happening. Be ye not discouraged since mockery of the truth is abounding in the last days. I'm a believer and accepted Jesus Christ as my saviour. I can see everyone are bringing forth proofs as their point of belief but yet again still unreliable. Science cannot explain everything and susceptible to fallacies and misleading information. I believe in God's Word not because it has proofs or something I can see, hear or feel.. but instead i believe because i have faith.

  • DLIES

    I think from a bibilical stand point its a good doc not saying i agree with it im not christen at all but it does a good job trying to explain the religious dogma

  • englishjakes

    weird video interesting tho i think that the christian teachings are good and that if you need to believe in god to follow the teaching then religion would be good for you. i am open to the concept of god but i have never actually seen or heard him despite praying for a period of years. i do agree we should be careful our technology is advancing faster and faster and it will be difficult to keep up with and i see people all the time "addicted" to face book and other social projects, what i think is funny about this is that video games have been subjected to a huge amount of scrutiny yet face book somehow escapes all scrutiny. for instance did you know that face book reserves the right to record any and all conversations including the private messaging system they have and also they claim right of ownership to any image and text posted on their network, also they have the right to sell that information to anyone who is willing to pay for it, kinda creepy if you ask me. as for the conspiracy that the people at the top the new world order and the bilderburgs and others, we should be careful they have alot of power more so than any government system. i think that people dont want to believe that there maybe something evil going on, because they realize that these people are so powerful that it would be hard to overcome. im not saying i necessarily believe there is something going on just that we should have an open mind and watchful eye of the situation. the one thing that is really concerning is that the bible does accurately predict the increase in geological activity that has happened over the past couple of years and that there is proof that we may have been extremely advanced race in the past that could of been wiped out by some sort of global disaster right now we are about to enter into the gravitational field of the super massive black hole at the center of our galaxy (next 10 years) and we would be fools to believe that this is not going to affect us. anyway i guess what im trying to say is have an open mind and try to prepare yourself for the worst make everyday count and live it like it was your last day, because if you wake up in the morning and say if i was going to die tomorrow would i live my day differently? and the answer is yes then i think you must be doing somthing wrong

  • over the edge

    Saydi
    lets look at this kink of yours i will answer from 1-6 to correspond with the numbered parts of the link.
    1 The Earth
    "its size is perfect" perfect for what? the earth was not designed to satisfy us. we evolved to fit the conditions on the earth.
    "The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. " no . the earth position from the sun varies constantly. also while we are in the "Goldilocks zone" we could vary the distance greatly.
    "And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull." no it is not. we are losing the moon slowly and as we go back in time it was much closer.
    "evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain" yes it does and if you do not agree i will expand on this.

    2 "The universe had a start - what caused it?" good question but first to make that statement you have to prove it had a start. then you have to prove that god did it. neither is addressed in this part.
    "Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light," is was not an explosion.
    " the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself." and "The universe has not always existed. It had a start." contradict each other. how can there be "no time" and a "not always"?

    3"The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?" because it does. if the laws were different or varying we would not be here to ask such questions. also this in no way proved god.

    4"The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior." it is not a program or like a computer. it is a set of chemical reactions based on type and order of said chemicals.

    5"We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him." then tell him to show himself clearly and without ambiguity.

    6 "Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us" really? them why does most of the world not believe in your god? and why do those who do believe disagree so much they divided into different denominations of this cult?
    "Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others." okay four down and 27 999 996 gods to go. that is how many gods that have been or are worshiped.

    this link of yours makes leaps of faith backed by nothing. misrepresents and misunderstands basic science while providing no proof for any god. let alone your specific murderous, incest promoting, infanticide performing,sexist god.

  • over the edge

    Saydi
    do you claim the OT/NT are the words/commands of god? do you accept the murder.slavery,infanticide,incest,sexism and so on? do you follow all the passages that require death for actions? or do you pick and choose what to follow? these books that have been edited,translated, contradict itself. history, science and logic are not reliable at all.

  • Achems_Razor

    @Saydi...Anything that is said to you to refute all your gods will go in one ear and out the other, @over the edge, gave you prime examples of critical thinking, but no, you fall back on your brainwashed hypnotized rant from which in my books there is no escape in your regard.

  • meerkat1

    How can you be so sure of this? The Freemasons?? LOL Illuminati. Great.

  • Conservation Connect

    Got 10 min in and couldn't take anymore of this BS...

  • JohnJameson

    Can I quote this? I will use your name if you want otherwise I will just copy it pretty much verbatim.

  • JohnJameson

    Love Meerkats by the way, we should look out for one another like they do.

  • meerkat1

    Hey Jon,
    If you use this material, please don't use my name.  It's interesting that every source that I could find to confirm the details of what I wrote,  told me the same thing - "Be very, very careful.  The government is watching and they REALLY don't want these things getting out.". I would like to talk to you - feel free to call me on the cell number below.

    Gail DeLucia of Quality Realty(203) 600-1757

  • http://www.facebook.com/marty.finley.9 Marty Finley

    if there is anyone out there that knows of other docs discussing the same things i would greatly appreciate hearing them. thank you

  • http://twitter.com/Arunder Arunder True

    Yes chap in fact I can show you the only one you ever need to see... its at wakeytime.co.uk

    blessings

  • LibertyandResponsibility91

    Based on your psuedointellectual statement above I am going to assume you know the difference between rabbinical laws made by man or the religious leaders in the OT and the 10 commandments of God and the laws for his people. Do you know that the bible is human history not all application based material? You wouldn't know that because I doubt you every truly did a hermeneutic study of the bible. You should know what you are talking about before you post things on a public forum.

  • over the edge

    LibertyandResponsibility91
    thank you for insulting me and addressing nothing in my post most of it was questions not statements. are you claiming that the 10 commandments are the only commandments from god?

  • facelikethesun

    @over the edge

    This is a fundamental issue with the arguments that divide the believer/non-believer debate.

    The Bible does have commandments, but the entirety of the book is not a manifesto or commandment from God. Even non-believing scholars will adhere to this basic truth about the Bible.

    Tell me honestly that you read the Bible cover to cover, Genesis 1 to Revelation 22 and what you got out of it is "murder, slavery, infanticide, incest, sexism, and so on" Are you really being honest here or are you piggy backing on rhetoric of Bible attackers and others who simply build straw man arguments about the Bible?

    You said "These books have been edited, translated, contradict itself, history, science and logic..."

    On the editing/translated. If the Bible truly was edited, it would be very very easy to show. Again, non-believing Bible scholars will not agree with you on that point. Are there spelling errors and poor translations from the Hebrew-Aramaic-Greek to the English? Sure. But the manuscripts that we do have...over 5,000 of them in the NT alone would be sufficient data to definitively show whether or not it was edited to the point of changing the entirety of the Biblical message and the Gospel.

    Contradictions? Have you actually investigated these alleged contradictions or are you just looking at websites and surface readings of the text and determining it for yourself? Again, I will suggest that even the reasonable person would actually investigate these alleged contradictions to see whether the accusations are accurate. That's what I did in my search and I found that many attacks made on the "contradictions" were so fabricated, and at times childish, that it's amazing to me that people still use that argument against the Bible. Are there difficult passages? Yes. But truth isn't always comfortable.

    History? The Bible is filled with history. In fact, some scholars, again not Christian scholars even say that the NT is a great work of historical antiquity and that our knowledge of the 1st century is greatly enhanced by the NT writings. The OT is also a great record of history. Of course it doesn't record history like we do today, but if that's your standard then ask yourself if it's fair to compare the documentation that happens in the computer/internet age to that which happened several thousands of years ago.

    Science? Bible never claims to be a science book. And science is not the end all tell all process. Your adherence to scientism is apparent here. I love science. I don't think it's incompatible with a belief in God and with the Bible.

    Logic? Dude. Where do you get logic from? Not to mention your logic seems to be lacking in a few areas based on some of the things you said.

    Pick one thing and let's dig into it. You can pick an alleged contradiction, or we can discuss logic, rationality, history whatever...pick one thing and let's dive into it.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    "Tell me honestly that you read the Bible cover to cover," yes i have.
    "what you got out of it is "murder, slavery, infanticide, incest, sexism, and so on" " yes. of course there are some good things mentioned as well and i readily admit that.

    ". If the Bible truly was edited, it would be very very easy to show. Again, non-believing Bible scholars will not agree with you on that point." how about Mark 19:9=20 or woman taken in adultery as they do not appear in the earliest writings?

    as for contradictions.i already pointed out some and you dismissed them. so i will ask something that needs no interpretation at all. was Jesus crucified before or after the passover meal?

    "History? The Bible is filled with history" if by that you mean it gets some dates and events right but so does Shakespeare and nobody in their right mind would claim it is a history book or a factual account.

    "ask yourself if it's fair to compare the documentation that happens in the computer/internet age to that which happened several thousands of years ago. " no it is not. but other ancient books do not claim to be the unchanging words of god. if god wrote or inspired a book(s) i do expect it to be perfect. to quote Aronra

    "“…if there really was one true god it should be the singular composite of every religions gods, and uber-galactic super-genius and the ultimate entity of the entire cosmos, if a being of that magnitude ever wrote a book…then there would only be one such document, one book of god, it would be dominant everywhere in the world, with no predecessors or parallels or alternatives in any language because mere human authors couldn’t possibly compete with it, and you wouldn’t need faith to believe it because it would be consistent with all evidence and demonstrably true, revealing profound morality and wisdom far beyond contemporary human capacity, it would invariably inspire a unity of common belief for every reader. If God wrote it, we could expect no less. But what we see instead, is the very opposite of that.” "

    "Pick one thing and let's dig into it" really? okay provide demonstrable proof that God exists.

  • facelikethesun

    @over the edge
    you addressed several things there...

    You mention Mark 19:9-20...I think you meant Mark 16:9-20.

    This claim that it was added comes from two of the three greek manuscripts, the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus & Alexandrian, having these verses missing.

    First, while the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus do omit these verses, there are thousands of other Greek manuscripts that do include them. Secondly, both the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus had some tampering done by the gnostics. They took out more than just these verses you mention. Third, (and this is the kicker) none of these three manuscripts existed before 200 AD. But there were several early Christian fathers prior to 200 AD who wrote their own writings that quoted these verses. Irenaeus of Lyons is perhaps the best example. He knew the apostle John personally, and around 100AD wrote quote:

    "But Mark in the end of his gospel says, 'And the Lord Jesus, after that He had spoken to them, was received up into heaven, and sat at the right hand of God.'"

    These are words found in Mark 16:19.

    So much for the "it was added later" argument.

    When was Jesus crucified? This is clear when you look at the Greek and also have a grasp of Israelite traditions.

    The Bible is consistent in describing the crucifixion of Jesus happening on the Day of Preparation before the Passover. John 19:14 says:

    "It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour."

    All four Gospels talk about leavened bread which is illegal during Passover, and no one mentioned the Passover lamb during the last supper. Jesus was crucified on the day that the Passover lambs were slaughtered, just before the Passover. This is not a contradiction. It's very consistent.

    History...your point is mute because Shakespeare never declared his writings as factual events. They were written to be fictional from the get go. Not so with the Bible. The claim since the OT writings has been that it is inspired text.

    The quote you cited is the kind of mindless rhetoric that I accused you of. It clearly shows a misunderstanding of the Biblical claims. it's a straw-man. From the beginning of the Biblical account, God is clear that He picked one people group and through that group, His message would be spread across the world. Thus, it's completely consistent for God to use prophets and authors throughout the ages, their personality, historical context, and situations to deliver His message. This also touches on your last point. If God did provide such a book as idealistic as the one in the quote, then there wouldn't be much of a choice on the individual to decide whether it's really the word of God or not. This element of choice is inherently important to provide because God wants us to love Him in the most genuine way.

    Here is a clear cut example. Say I walk up to you and point a gun to your head and tell you, "if you don't love me, I will shoot you." Now you might say that you love me verbally, but do you? I doubt it. Love cannot be forced. If God gave us the kind of book idealized in the quote, then although we would still have a choice to reject Him, that choice would not really be our own responsibility. God left room for rejection because accepting God is not a small matter.

    Again let me use the example of children. If your child wants something, and you as a parent always gives them everything that they want, what would that do? It would make the child feel entitled. It would spoil them etc. I'm sure you get this. You know like Violet from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, "I want it daddy and I want it now!"

    In essence, this is what the person who you quoted is saying. It's almost like this person wants God's word to be true, but cannot accept what God gave instead. But upon genuine investigation, the facts will begin to pile up and soon enough you will get to a point where the only explanation is that the Bible is the Word of God, which was written through 40 different authors, in a span of over 1500 years, in 3 different languages, through several cultural settings, yet has one clear message. What other book lives up to this standard?

    "demonstrable proof that God exists." What a loaded question.

    What do you define as proof? Because that determines everything. The fact that the universe exists can be used as proof, but your philosophical underpinnings will accept or reject that piece of evidence.

    And let me ask you this. What would sufficiently provide "proof" that would convince you that God exists? I mean seriously think about that. Because let's say you experience some sort of supernatural thing...for example, using a Biblical reference, let's say you see a man who claims to be God himself walk on water. Now if you were there to see Jesus walk on water, that wouldn't convince you that He was God would it? No. You would have Jesus all wired up in a laboratory tracking every atom that you can, and if you saw the laws of nature be broken, it STILL wouldn't convince you that He is God would it?

    My point is, your mindset, your philosophical framework is closed off to all conceivable possibilities, one of which is that God exists. And therefore, no amount of proof, evidence, experience will provide the necessary means to change your mind.

    Now I am speaking in generalities here. I am not saying YOU specifically, because who knows, if you saw Jesus walk on water, you might actually accept Him as God. And that threshold is different for each individual. But I think you get my point. There is proof of God's existence, but accepting it as evidence for God is determined not by the evidence themselves, but the philosophical framework from which you view the evidence.

    Now I bet you're saying, "see...he doesn't provide any proof". So let me give you just a few things that I think is compelling evidence.

    DNA. I'm sorry but the machine-like properties of DNA are so marvelous, one can even say it's "miraculous." Science will never be able to tell us how non-living properties suddenly arranged themselves to become living things.

    I think the teleological argument is also a powerful one. That is that the universe is tuned for life. The rejection I often hear for this one is..."but most of the universe is hostile towards life" (to which I say...ya but this universe still has life...us!) and "there is no proof that another universe with different properties wouldn't spring up life" and those are valid to a degree. But at that point, the rejection itself is providing metaphysical propositions. We only have the universe we are in to work with, and based on its observations, it's not crazy to suggest that it was tuned for life.

    I think the moral argument is a strong proof. All humans have the capacity to make decisions based on objective moral values and duties that are there independent of culture, society, etc. The very nature of us humans is that we are doing what we think if right, or wrong. Now I think part of the fall in Genesis has to do with the confusion of this notion. The duality that is within us has caused us to believe that something is good, when really it's not.

    I can go on and on but I'll stop here for now

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    "you addressed several things there" yes i did. i was responding to your post and what you said.

    "You mention Mark 19:9-20...I think you meant Mark 16:9-20." yes thank you. are you claiming that they are contained in the earliest copies we have? what about the woman caught in adultry. as far as i know most scholars agree that was added later.

    as for the crucifixion . mark seems to say that it was after the passover meal.

    i will skip over a bit here as you say nothing of substance for a while . "What do you define as proof? " i said demonstrable proof as in something that can be demonstrated to me so i can see for myself and repeat or test so i do not have to take someone's word for it. i ask that because that is what this whole discussion comes down to. isn't it? proof for god. i honestly do not know why someone would express something as anything more than opinion if they are unable to present proof that i can see/test/repeat for myself.now i of course agree that it gets a lot harder to apply that to historical events so in such cases i require multiple sources for the time of the claimed event(s) now decades/centuries after.

    " if you saw the laws of nature be broken, it STILL wouldn't convince you that He is God would it? " if i saw it and it could be repeated under controlled conditions and there was not a more reasonable explanation that would be strong evidence. but that hasn't happened there are many reasonable ways to explain what happened in the bible that make more sense (like it is made up )

    " your philosophical framework is closed off to all conceivable possibilities, one of which is that God exists" no it is not but i choose to live my life only following things that are probable not just possible. is it possible god exists? yes it is. same goes for leprechauns,dragons and so on but the possibility is so low i do not let that possibility affect my life. same goes for the other religions that have been or are still followed. are you claiming that they are not possible?

    "DNA. I'm sorry but the machine-like properties of DNA are so marvelous" so because you cannot grasp why/how that happens you inject god into it as an explanation.

    "Science will never be able to tell us how non-living properties suddenly arranged themselves to become living things. " i disagree science may well prove how it happened some day but for now there are hypothesis and explanations but i agree that they are not robust enough to call them proof. so i answer the question of life's origins the only honest way i know how "i do not know" again injecting god into an unknown is not proof of god. " We only have the universe we are in to work with, and based on its observations, it's not crazy to suggest that it was tuned for life. " and what observation(s) do you base that on? i support the idea that life tunes itself to the environment it is exposed to not the other way around. and that can be demonstrated. i will again cite the "long term e-coli experiment" it is life changing to fit the new environment and is observed, repeatable and demonstrable evidence of speciation. science can also show how morals are developed and why different cultures have slightly different moral norms. in closing again we touched on multiple subjects and i agree we should focus on one so please provide demonstrable proof for this god as nothing you have claimed as evidence proves a god let alone your specific god.

  • facelikethesun

    @over the edge

    The woman caught in adultery was added later, early manuscripts do not include the passages, and when they show up in the manuscripts, the scribes even indicate that it was a later addition. The question is, does that change the truth of Gospels?...and Does that mean the rest of the text is unreliable? I think the answer to both is no. It doesn't change the Gospel message, in fact, many scholars agree that the event itself is a probable event and consistent with oral traditions. Remember not ALL of Jesus' ministry was recorded.

    John 21:25
    "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

    On Mark suggesting Jesus was crucified after Passover, read Mark 15:42.

    you said:
    "demonstrable proof as in something that can be demonstrated to me so i can see for myself and repeat or test so i do not have to take someone's word for it."

    How much of what you believe lives up to this standard? And aren't you taking "someone's word", mainly the scientists who say something is true or untrue? I bet you're saying, "ya but scientific papers are peer reviewed." Well, sure, but how much of peer reviewed material thought to be factual has been overturned in scientific history? A lot.

    I think the best proof for God that's not rooted solely in philosophical arguments is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Paul even says that if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then our faith is empty. Christianity relies on this fact. If a man who claimed to be God was killed via crucifixion, then 3 days later rose from the dead, I think a reasonable explanation is that God exists. Do you not agree?

    "i honestly do not know why someone would express something as anything more than opinion if they are unable to present proof that i can see/test/repeat for myself"

    Again, if all you relied upon was what you can see, test and repeat for yourself, then why do you not believe that the sun revolves around the earth? That's something you can see, not sure how you can test it, but I'm sure you can find some creative ways of doing it, and it repeats daily. No, you rely on the research of others to determine that the earth revolves around the sun.

    Historical events, such as the resurrection needs to be tested just like any other claim. The Christian position of "faith" is not blindly injecting God where there is no answer. Evidence is hugely important to the Christian. Really it comes down to epistemology.

    "so because you cannot grasp why/how that happens you inject god into it as an explanation."
    Straw-man. I didn't say because I don't grasp it, therefore God. Rather, the reasonable explanation following the logic is that there is a creator behind the creation. Life on other planets is a good example. Let's say we find a structure on Mars and it has markings that look like language on it. Is the reasonable position to suggest it just got there by chance? Or is it more reasonable to infer intelligence behind the structures? We don't have to know who did it, how it got there, why it's there, but you can still infer intelligence and that's all I am saying. In fact, this position of intelligent design is gaining ground in the scientific community based on logical, rational renderings of the things we are seeing in our universe.

    "no it is not but i choose to live my life only following things that are probable not just possible. is it possible god exists? yes it is. same goes for leprechauns,dragons and so on but the possibility is so low i do not let that possibility affect my life. same goes for the other religions that have been or are still followed. are you claiming that they are not possible?"

    No, I agree that it's possible they exist. But is it reasonable that they exist? No. But I do think it's reasonable that the God of the Bible exist. Again I point to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

    Now this is a historical event and thus, it requires the same kind of process a cold case would be investigated in court. I believe the court room is a better and more rigorous investigation of truth over the science lab for many reasons. Before I get into it, let me just say that to suggest science is the only way to discover truth is a fallacious statement because that statement in itself cannot be scientifically verified. It's a self refuting argument. But here are the reasons why I think a court room is better than a science lab in determining the truth about a historical event (resurrection of Jesus)

    1. Court rooms vet claims far better than the science lab. Peer reviewed journals are simply trying to verify an experiment. The court room begins with two opposing views. In fact, unlike a peer review, in a court room, even if you have the correct truth, the opposition is going to rigorously oppose you and expect the worst. It has to hold up to the scrutiny.

    2. Historical events by it's nature are unrepeatable. You cannot repeat the resurrection of Jesus. And miracles cannot and would not be defined as miracles if they happened all the time. Thus, personal testimony are very important. Let me give you an example. Let's say you pick up your kid from school and you ask the kid, "how was your day at school?" You don't infer a scientific repeatable experiment in verifying whether your kid tells you the truth. It's far more reliable to look for corroborating testimony from witnesses of his day to determine that.

    3. Science is not incompatible with a court room model for rendering a historical event. In fact, forensic science is often used as a form of assistance not to determine the truth, but to determine whether these things corroborate with the eye-witness testimony. The scientific evidence alone is not the defining factor. Let's say there are finger prints on a knife that was the murder weapon of person A. But eye-witness testimony of 10 people suggest person B was the murderer because they saw person B stab someone. In this case, while the evidence alone points to person A, the many points of testimony, along with other circumstantial evidence would outweigh the forensic evidence alone.

    4. This is perhaps the most important. Lawyers don't determine whether or not something is true or not. I alluded to this earlier, but you tend to think everything a scientist says is in fact true without ever really investigating these things for yourself. You just take the benefit of the doubt. You have faith in the scientists. On the contrary, in a court room, the jury determines the final verdict. This is not the case with science.

    Now why go through all of this? Because I believe the case for the resurrection of Jesus would hold up in a court of law. I think we can get a good picture of the reality that Jesus rose from the dead without ever referring to the Gospels. The recorded accounts of those who wrote about Jesus who were opposed to who He was (God), verifies a lot of information about Jesus. These are corroborative evidences, and with enough of them stacked up create a valid case.

    Before I get into the actual documented accounts of these pagan writings, let me give you an example.

    Say you have a murder case. This is investigating a past event. Let's say a guy murdered a woman, but no one was there to see the murder happen. And let's say, there is no direct evidence that leads to the killer (no finger prints, hairs, footprints etc). But let's say there is a culmination of circumstantial evidence. A neighbor saw a man walk out of the house of the murdered about the time it allegedly happened with a bat. The bat upon investigation was cleaned off with bleach. His jeans had been thoroughly cleaned at the knees. etc etc etc. How much of this type of evidence would need to be stacked up for the case to be made that the dude was in fact the killer?

    Ok so the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus:
    TACITUS tells us that Jesus existed, was the founder of Christianity, and was put to death by Pilate, Christianity started in Judea and later spread to Rome. He calls Christianity as a "superstition" of which spread again in Rome indicating that something happened the cause this re-emergence. Interesting that he calls it a superstition.

    THALLUS tells us that there was an eclipse, that there was an earthquake, that Jesus was crucified the day before passover.

    PLINY the YOUNGER tells us that the followers who allegedly saw Jesus' resurrection sang songs and were under danger for declaring what they believed they saw.

    CELSUS vehemently denied the deity of Christ, but in doing so, he did declare a few things. That Jesus existed, that he was crucified, his followers thought He was god, that he was allegedly born of a virgin, that he had a small clan (apostles).

    LUCEAN also tells us in his writings that Jesus lives, was crucified, was worshipped by his followers, and was the founder of Christianity.

    So again, i didn't use ANY of the Gospels, but it's quite remarkable the evidence we can gather from these writings alone. Add that to the eye-witness accounts of the Gospels and they corroborate.

    Now another thing to point out, a common accusation is that Chrsitians wrote the Gospels and therefore it's unreliable. Now this would mean it is a lie. Now there are three motives for any crime. Lust-Money-Power. None of the Gospel writers had any of these as a point of motive. Motive alone doesn't prove anything, but based on what happened to the apostles, it's quite obvious that they had no reason of lust to say these things, no money (the apostles were very poor), and no power (they were killed by the authorities because of these beliefs). The culmination of these things creates a very strong case that Jesus did live, that He was killed, and rose from the dead to cause such a massive movement when there was no reason for political or financial gain whatsoever. Compare that to Joseph Smith's motives...lust? Ya...how many wives did he have? Power? The dude ran for president. Where power is sought, money is usually a part of it.

    So again, the case is made. Now in order for your position to be true which is that this was all "made up," please tear down each of these corroborative points of circumstantial evidence and present a case that gives a more reasonable explanation for what happened.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    first off i never said that jesus didn't exist or that these stories were not based on events. i only claim that there is no reliable evidence that he existed as claimed (i will explain)

    lets use your court room standard shall we. " believe the court room is a better and more rigorous investigation of truth over the science lab for many reasons"

    in a courtroom circular logic is exposed so claiming god proves the bible and the bible proves god would only be allowed if there was corroborating evidence. so lets look at what you provide.
    Tacitus (56 AD – 117 AD
    PLINY the YOUNGER 61 AD- 112 AD
    CELSUS 2nd century
    LUCEAN AD 125 – after AD 180
    all hearsay and not acceptable in a courtroom. now there are exceptions and even ones for religious writings. but those only claim that the books claim it. not that they are true.

    while we are on the subject of ID and court. are you familiar with the Dover trial. where a christian judge ruled ID is a religious belief and not science? did you notice that the major ID proponents were on the witness list but refused to testify? why? they had their chance to present their case and refused. the few who did testify were thoroughly debunked, and Behe even admitted that by ID definition astrology would be science. not to mention the unchristian behavior or the proponents. so much so that the judge asked the prosecutor to charge some of the defendants with perjury. not only that but the public spoke up and did not re elect a single proponent of ID at the school board election.

    "Add that to the eye-witness accounts of the Gospels and they corroborate." prove the gospels are eyewitness accounts? prove they are accurate? correct me if i am wrong (seriously i am working from memory) but Luke does not claim to be eyewitness accounts. and most scholars agree that the gospels have multiple authors and are anonymous?

    "present a case that gives a more reasonable explanation for what happened." i do not need to as i do not claim to know what happened. all i have to show is flaws in your logic. you on the other hand are making positive claims so you own the burden of proof.

    " I alluded to this earlier, but you tend to think everything a scientist says is in fact true without ever really investigating these things for yourself. You just take the benefit of the doubt. " no i do not. i will list just two theories i do not claim as true
    1 abiogenesis- i do not claim to be true as there is not enough evidence to make that claim so i say "i do not know"
    2 big bang- my knowledge is sufficiently limited so i am unable to make an informed claim so again "i do not know"
    these along with many other theories will get the same answer from me. for the same or other reasons. also you do not know my education or what experiments i have done for myself so please do not claim to know what i have/have not done.

    " Historical events by it's nature are unrepeatable. You cannot repeat the resurrection of Jesus." no but i do require multiple unbiased sources from people who were actually there. and the accounts should also be comparable with other evidence (example Herod and Quirinius ruled at different times and no cansus at that date in roman records)

    finally. back to science. it is a false dichotomy you propose where science is concerned. even if you disprove everything in science it provides absolutely no weight to your claims.

  • facelikethesun

    The claim I was making for the court room situation was not God's existence, not ID, nor the existence of Jesus. It was the resurrection of Jesus. Based on the evidence we DO have, there is sufficient evidence to reasonably suggest that the event did occur.

    Luke himself was not an eye-witness of he was a historian...look at what he says at the beginning of his Gospel accounts.

    Luke 1
    "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilleda among us, 2just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught."

    Now because we can't interview any eye-witnesses today this is the best we can do. But guess what, Luke did interview eye-witnesses.

    Then you have quotes like this one:

    "I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history " ~E. M. Blaiklock Professor of Classics Auckland University

    The empty tomb is a well established fact of history. This doesn't prove the resurrection of Jesus, but it does give a point of fact that even those who were vehemently against the Christian movement admit to.

    There are other points of facts like the broken seal and the stone being rolled away. But I think one of the strongest points that is difficult to refute is that the Gospels were published and circulated while the eye-witnesses were still alive. 1 Corinthians when he mentions that Jesus appeared to over 500 was written in 56 AD, less than 25 years after the resurrection. There were surely still eye-witnesses still alive at that time. Had it been a lie, the eye-witnesses would have certainly refuted it. And what would they gain by accepting the accounts? Probably death by the authorities. Again I allude back to my post. There was no motive of power-money-or lust in declaring that Jesus rose form the dead. Like today, what they got was ridicule, and threats to their lives. Why in the world would they adhere to that?

    Here's another quote from Professor Thomas Arnold who wrote the History of Rome and was the chair of modern history at Oxford. Again, he's a scholar who said, "I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God hath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead."

    These aren't proofs of the event, but it does show that there are good reasons to believe it's true.

    Now again, these are well established scholars talking. You can't scientifically show that something 2000 years ago did or didn't happen, but there are established facts that make this event reasonable.

    Now to you directly. If you knew that a man who claimed to be God was killed and then came back from the dead 3 days later, would you believe?

    My goal is not to disprove science. I was simply weighing the two methods between the court room and the science lab to determine which method best vet's past events.

    Oh if you want to use the "Gospel accounts vary and are not consistent" argument, I can tear it down fairly easily using the court model. Think about if you had several eye-witness accounts to a crime. Let's say the major points match up between the two testimonies. The murderer was a male, he was wearing a red shirt and jeans, they both saw him stab the clerk at the bank etc etc etc

    Now let's say some details did not match up. One says he walked in at 1PM sharp. The other says it was about 2 o clock. One says he was at the third register, the other says he was at the second. One says he stabbed with his left hand, the other said right. One says he stabbed 3 times, the other said 4.

    Now both accounts would be accurate in describing the event, but the details varying are not detrimental to the actual event. Now if one had said, the killer was woman who has a blue shirt on and a skirt, and shot the clerk then we would have a bigger problem.

    but imagine the two eye witnesses give an EXACT match of the events to the detail. Would it raise your suspicion? I think it would.

    If the Gospel accounts were a true conspiracy, then the authors would have colluded to make the accounts match perfectly. Instead, we get 3 that seem to be eye-witnesses and one that did a thorough investigation on the events.

    Hey all I am saying is that there's more to it than simply implying..."it was made up" and I invite you to investigate the resurrection accounts with a lot more enthusiasm because if this guy really did raise from the dead, then the implications are huge for your life.

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    "The claim I was making for the court room situation was not God's existence, not ID, nor the existence of Jesus. It was the resurrection of Jesus. Based on the evidence we DO have" maybe that is what you should have said because i was addressing you statement right before the "evidence" of " so the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus:" not just the resurrection and his existence is important if he is to be resurrected isn't it?

    "But I think one of the strongest points that is difficult to refute is that the Gospels were published and circulated while the eye-witnesses were still alive" if the event never happened then there would be no eye witnesses to refute it. so prove to me a person specifically named Jesus not only existed but was crucified and there were eyewitnesses around. i think you understant by now that i will not accept the bible as proof of the bible and that hearsay is not evidence as far as i am concerned.

    " If you knew that a man who claimed to be God was killed and then came back from the dead 3 days later, would you believe?" if i knew that i would already believe wouldn't i ? sorry to split hairs but that statement is important. now if i personally saw it and i excluded other possibilities (hallucination or magic trick and so on) i would believe he came back from the dead but in no way does that prove other claims from this person. just because i cannot explain something does it make him a god. also as i pointed out earlier (and you never addressed) the majority of scholars agree that the accounts are written by multiple unknown authors and they have been edited added to translated and so on (even if you do not accept that most scholars do) so the accounts claimed in the bible are not eyewitness accounts or reliable.

    "Oh if you want to use the "Gospel accounts vary and are not consistent" argument, I can tear it down fairly easily using the court model. Think about if you had several eye-witness accounts to a crime. " again you assume they are "eye-witness accounts" they are not they are anonymous copies of copies of copies written long after the fact. you have not proven the authorship of these stories or that they are factual accounts.

    i fear that we will soon (if not already) go in circles. so i will make this blunt. nothing you have provided would convince someone who doesn't already believe. you cannot even provide proof of authorship of most if not all of the bible. you dance around the edges of proof or use the bible to prove itself. your only corroboration is hearsay and you ignore the claims/findings of most scholars. what you acept as evidence truly scares me and i hope that if i am ever accused of something you are not on the jury. i know that was not the most polite way to put it and i would like to end on a positive. so here goes. i have enjoyed the discussion and you are well versed in your subject. but until you provide something more concrete i will take my leave as in my experience this is close to the point where the discussion dissolves into uselessness and nastiness (might be my fault)

  • facelikethesun

    @ over the edge

    Happy new year.

    "hearsay is not evidence as far as i am concerned." Well then you would have to conclude pure agnosticism on the issue. Even if there were direct eye-witness testimony on paper, I am willing to bet you wouldn't accept it as evidence alone. There are new sets of evidence that is extremely fascinating in terms of the authenticity that the Gospel writers were getting their information from eye-witnesses. Names. Yes names. Check out a lecture by Dr. Peter S. Williams on names. This is information that has only been available for about the last decade. Basically, what Dr. Williams looked at was the popularity of certain names in the first century based on regions. He then was able to show that not only were the names accurate due to the location, but other corroborative information matches between Gospels as well. Now this is very important to think about. Let's say you want to write a fictional book on 15th century Japan. If your characters are named Joe the Lion hunter and Mike the beach bum, it's not going to be very accurate. And believe it or not, these were the days before the internet and Wikipedia, so getting the information on names, settings etc was quite difficult. Dr. Williams can articulate these things better than I could in his lecture, but it's worth looking into because it makes a startling case that if the accounts were not based on first hand eye-witnesses, the level of accuracy of names mentioned in the NT would not be so high. The basic punch line is that humans do a much better job of remembering events rather than names. A great examples of this are the gnostic gospels that have come out in recent years. The one thing they inadvertently do is verify this claim about names for the NT Gospels. The names given in say the Gospel of Thomas for example are not only vague, but do not corroborate with the alleged time and place of when their version of the events took place.

    I'm sure you're aware that, for example, if I say, "Mary from the NT" you would ask, which one? Mary Magdelene? or Mary, mother of Jesus? etc. What about Simon? Simon Peter? or Simon son of John? etc. In the gnostic gospels, we get "Mary" and assumptions have to be made as to which Mary. Again, I'm not an expert on this, just some information I got from the lecture of Dr. Peter S Williams. This alone doesn't create a slam dun case for the authenticity of the NT alone, but it's another wrinkle that gives me good reason to believe they are accurate and should not dismissed so easily.

    Oh and BTW, just a quick tidbit. Bart Ehrman in his book Misquoting Jesus, claims there are 200,000-400,000 variations and errors in the NT alone. WOW! Well that's amazing because there are less than 190,000 words in the NT. Ehrman is being deceptive with his statistics here. He's basing the variations on the number of manuscripts. For example, let's say there were 4 misspelled words in Ehrman's book. And then let's say there were a million books printed. Well, using Ehrman's logic, there are 4 million errors in his book!

    I'll leave you with this. The burden of proof does not always fall on the Christian. Sure, I accept that we do have the burden of proof because we make positive claims like God exists, or Jesus is God etc. Which again I believe there are good reason to believe these things. But I would assert that unless you take on a stance of agnosticism, which is totally fine and valid, you are asserting claims as well. For example, "there is no God" or "There is no reason for me to believe in God" are both positive assertions that God does not exist. In that case, you the burden of proof falls on you as well.

    If I ask you, "what do you believe?" and then "why?" you would need an explanation. And then you would have to present an alternative reason for rejecting the evidence. Simply stating that "you're assuming its eye-witnesses and therefore it's not" is not explaining yourself. If you were intellectually honest (and it seems you are), then you would at least state that the reasons that I've stated are plausible and that you would only be able to go as far as staying agnostic on the issue all together at which point, you would have to reject both my view, and the view that says Jesus did not live, die, rise again etc.

    Surely there are many things I can continue to address, and again I'm not trying to change your mind, but do want you to think about your claims as well. Never think you're not making a claim, because you believe something and that something must be backed up with good reasons.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    Why are you not a Muslim? there is historical evidence in the Quran. Muhammed existed and there are outside sources so what keeps you from believing he is a prophet of god?

  • over the edge

    facelikethesun
    happy new year as well. if you do not mind as i stated i will walk away for a while as i feel that this conversation has run its course for now.(at least for me). i am not conceding or walking away angry just walking away. but i would like to clarify one thing

    "Bart Ehrman in his book Misquoting Jesus, claims there are 200,000-400,000 variations and errors in the NT alone. WOW! Well that's amazing because there are less than 190,000 words in the NT. "
    his claim (based on evidence) is when you compare the large number of copies of the NT there are that many differences (taking you number as his claim .it has been a while since i read the book) . he also admits that most of the differences mean nothing and do not change the accounts in any relevant ways. but some do and he addresses them in his books and lecture

  • over the edge

    Epicurus
    happy new year.

  • facelikethesun

    Yes there are historical accounts of Islam. But my Christianity is not based solely on the historical validity of the Scriptures. It's built on them, but it's not the core. The core is a philosophical proposition that the Biblical worldview best describes the real world.

    And to address the specific question of why I don't think Muhammed was a prophet of God is because not only did the Quran come much later than the Biblical accounts, it's writings were inspired through one person, not 40, over a span of 1500+ years in 3 different languages and many different cultural settings. Not to mention coming from the Biblical perspective, anything that changes or attempts to add to the Scriptures can be determined as false teaching. And the Quran does that...it deny's Jesus' deity among many other things.

  • facelikethesun

    @ over the edge

    NP. I was away from this particular comment section for a while, but I always invite the conversation. It's been fun. For what it's worth...God Bless!

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    You sound like a jew giving reasons why he is not a christian.

    so everyone else on the planet, all the hindus, all the muslims, all the buddhists, all the jains, all the sikhs, all the atheists, etc....alllllll got it wrong, but luckily 2000 years ago god decided to send himself down in the most typical iron age mythological fashion, to a small group of people in the middle east?

    China had a great civilization with writing and science going and god just focused on a group in the middle east.

    the universe is so simple that it can be boiled down to there is a being that can do anything, that created everything, so it could judge us.

    oh goodness me.

  • facelikethesun

    I don't claim to be God, so I am not going to say I know for a fact that the buddhists, the hindus, and the rest of them are going to hell or anything like that.

    However, I will say that the Biblical claim was that God would work for humanity through one nation, Israel, and the salvation message would spread throughout the world. China is one of the fastest growing Christian nations in the world! The claims made 2000 years ago are coming to pass in our time and day. I think that's quite remarkable. Traditions have lasted longer than Christianity, I get that.

    More to the point, are they wrong? Yes and no. I think until Jesus came, the basic principles was (and still largely is) that we have to do something to attain connection with God. In other words, it's works related. We have to do the rituals etc to keep the God or gods happy. What Jesus did, and what the Gospel tells us is that we will never be good enough to reconnect with God. God came to us. As a result, our works, our actions etc will reflect God. It's not a requirement.

    If you study the Divine Council in the Bible, all other religions actually comes into focus very very well. I'm not going to go through all of it here, but the topic is largely ignored by Christians because it makes them "uncomfortable" when really it's right there in the text.

    In short, YHWH God gave dominion over various regions of the earth to the Divine Council...70 of them (Deuteronomy 32:8, Genesis 10)...these are simply divine beings, lower case g-gods. This is not a polytheistic view, it's simply what the Bible describes. Now one by one, instead of these beings pointing to the all mighty God, they began to accept worship from people. This makes sense when you look at the many different religions of the world. Then eventually they handed over all of their dominion to Satan, and thus in Luke 4:6 Satan says, "all of these have been given to me (the nations)."

    And that's also why Jesus sends out 70 (or 72 depending on how you read the text) to take back the nations. All of this to say that the Bible actually does address other religions in one way or another. Is it wrong? No. In other words, there is truth to the religions, but the Bible seems to show how they came to be and why the Gospel is important.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "I don't claim to be God, so I am not going to say I know for a fact that the buddhists, the hindus, and the rest of them are going to hell or anything like that"

    but doesnt the same book that you claim is correct states that those people will go to hell because they dont believe in jesus?

    "However, I will say that the Biblical claim was that God would work for humanity through one nation, Israel"

    god is working through humanity using a small country in the middle east. thats omnipotence at work.

    I have no idea how you type out all this, then read it, and think it corresponds to reality.

    so all the other religions exist because of some beings he gave dominon over 70 regions that decided they wanted to be worshiped themselves.....MY GOODNESS what a fairytale.

  • facelikethesun

    "but doesnt the same book that you claim is correct states that those people will go to hell because they dont believe in jesus?"

    Yes, but it doesn't say God sends people to hell...people choose hell over salvation. Salvation in the Bible is a free gift. You can accept it, or you can reject it. God's pursuit of every individual does not cease. He doesn't want to see anyone go to hell. If the choice wasn't there, then it wouldn't really be fair and just.

    "god is working through humanity using a small country in the middle east. thats omnipotence at work."

    Yep. The whole narrative of the Biblical God is that He doesn't come with laser beams and an army so that you have to bow down or else...rather, God became a fragile human. The pyramid structure that constitutes the hierarchy of human conduct was flipped upside down with Jesus. In other words, God is humble...and it's a good thing. This is why you're not God. You would practice your omnipotence to the fullness of it's power and you would create robotic slaves instead of beings with free will.

    "I have no idea how you type out all this, then read it, and think it corresponds to reality."

    In the book of Jasher, which is not a Biblical book, but is referenced in the Bible, refers to the Tower of Babel event and talks about three different groups wanting to "ascend to heaven" by building the Tower. One group that's punished get's turned into elephants. The resemblance is eerily similar to the Ganesha in the Hindu faiths. Then you read stories of Zeus in Greek mythos that reflect the same entity of Satan in the Bible.

    You dismiss it all as fairytale outright, which is fine. But why are there so many commonalities between the many religions? And are not all religions based on supernatural claims? If they weren't, they wouldn't be religions. Just because you haven't experienced something supernatural (whether it be positive or negative) doesn't mean it doesn't occur, or that entities outside our senses don't exist.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "Yes, but it doesn't say God sends people to hell...people choose hell over salvation."

    THAT is ridiculous. no one CHOOSES hell over salvation. we could simply say YOU choose reincarnation over nirvana. the fact is you dont believe it is true. you have not been given sufficient evidence to believe it is true so why would you behave as if it were?

    I do not choose hell, but I also cant force my brain to believe something.

    If im hiding in the dark waiting for someone to make two choices and when they make the choice i disagree with i then shoot them i cant say they chose death.

    There is also not a single sane person who would CHOOSE hell. so we know that you trying to make it as simple as that is wrong.

    "Yep. The whole narrative of the Biblical God is that He doesn't come with laser beams and an army so that you have to bow down or else...rather, God became a fragile human."

    no one asked for laser beams. just a little more intelligence.

    "God is humble...and it's a good thing."

    god is humble....if you dont believe in him you will suffer for eternity.

    god is humble but the first three commandments are demands of worship.

    "You would practice your omnipotence to the fullness of it's power and you would create robotic slaves instead of beings with free will."

    not at all. I would make myself known to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt THEN let them exercise freewill. how would i create robotic slaves? I certainly wouldnt demand that they worship me and then punish them if they dont.

    what is the difference between getting a robot to give you a blow job or putting a gun to someones head and giving them the choice to suck or die?

    "In the book of Jasher, which is not a Biblical book, but is referenced in the Bible, refers to the Tower of Babel event and talks about three different groups wanting to "ascend to heaven" by building the Tower. One group that's punished get's turned into elephants. The resemblance is eerily similar to the Ganesha in the Hindu faiths. Then you read stories of Zeus in Greek mythos that reflect the same entity of Satan in the Bible."

    the TOWER OF BABEL!!!! yes a tower we made so tall that god got mad because he didnt want us reaching heaven....must have been a pretty tall tower seeing as how we have landed on the moon.

    oh and isnt that where god made all the different languages?? lol not only does that go against historical knowledge and linguistics but it also seems pointless if his goal was that we wouldnt communicate since we have no problems making translations.

    the fact that you would quote the tower of babel to support your case would be like me trying to quote Spiderman comics to support their existence. its insane.

    "But why are there so many commonalities between the many religions?"

    there are commonalities because they are all humans and we all work with the same archetypal frameworks especially when we are envisioning deities. They are always combinations of our universal wants as well as our cultural influences.

    "If they weren't, they wouldn't be religions. Just because you haven't experienced something supernatural (whether it be positive or negative) doesn't mean it doesn't occur, or that entities outside our senses don't exist."

    no it doesnt, but its a very damn good reason why I wouldnt assume they DO exist.

  • facelikethesun

    It's actually quite pointless to debate actual Biblical and Scriptural things with you since you reject it outright from the get go...so let me say this..and then I'll get into some of your responses.

    Faith in the Biblical sense is not denying reality as you seem to suggest it is. If science and religion both have truth as their ultimate goal (which I believe it does), then there's no inherent conflict between the two. No amount of scientific evidence will give us any form of spiritual truth because these aren't measurable things. Give me a measurement for love, or hate? We assess these things based on feeling, and external action. They're judgement calls, not empirical things.

    Let me address some of your fallacious thinking here.

    "not at all. I would make myself known to everyone beyond a shadow of a doubt THEN let them exercise freewill."

    How much free will is there to choose if something is known beyond a shadow of a doubt? First of all, we don't know anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. We know things beyond reasonable doubt, like I am here now typing this to you. I'm pretty sure that this is true beyond reasonable doubt. But you nor I could ever prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the world didn't come into existence just 3 seconds ago with an illusion of memory in tact. So that's a problem there. Second, by proclaiming something beyond any kind of doubt, and then asking them to make a decision is actually more cruel in my opinion. Think about it?

    Using your logic, it would be like putting someone in jail for committing a murder (letting them know that what they did was wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt), and then giving them a choice to commit the murder or not. It simply does not follow.

    "what is the difference between getting a robot to give you a blow job or putting a gun to someones head and giving them the choice to suck or die?"

    Well, you didn't need to be so vulgar, but since you brought up the gun to the head analogy, let me counter with this. God's ultimate goal is for us to love Him, freely. This also addresses the topic of worship you brought up. It's not really "worship or die" it's more of "stay focused on my because it will keep you from harm." It's akin to a parent wanting the child to listen to them. As parents, we have more experience and know what's best for the child, but the child doesn't see your point, and thinks he/she knows what's best for themselves. And as with the analogy:

    Imagine I put a gun to your head and say, "If you don't love me genuinely, I will shoot." You would tell me you love me, you might even show me physical affection as "evidence" but does that mean you genuinely love me? Heck no. Under such circumstances, it would be terribly hard to ever love me genuinely. That's why God allows room for rejection. Without this open choice, genuine love cannot be experienced. This reflects reality very very closely. We are to be stewards of our world do you not agree? The fire that can burn us warms us. The water that can drown us quenches our thirst. There is a level of responsibility on our part to make the choice. Force us, or take away any kind of doubt and the responsibility goes out the window as well.

    "god is humble....if you dont believe in him you will suffer for eternity."

    Listen to yourself there. Your rejection of God is not on terms of rational thinking, it's actually on the basis that you cannot accept a God who is just and fair. This statement makes you uncomfortable, therefore you deny it. That's not really digging at the truth. That's appealing to your desire to be right. Not to mention it's a straw-man argument.

    "no it doesnt, but its a very damn good reason why I wouldnt assume they DO exist."

    So you think all of the people who encounter strange, paranormal/supernatural encounters are simply delusional? That's fairly arrogant to suggest. What about the work of Dr. Rick Strassman on DMT? Almost all subjects encountered "other worldly creatures" and many of them had shared experiences (two people on DMT in the same room encounter the same entity). So I guess these are all just coincidences and nothing more than the product of the mind...even then you have a problem because spiritual entities would be something that manifest and project themselves through minds.

    oh and I forgot to address one of the first things you said:

    "THAT is ridiculous. no one CHOOSES hell over salvation. we could simply say YOU choose reincarnation over nirvana. the fact is you dont believe it is true. you have not been given sufficient evidence to believe it is true so why would you behave as if it were?

    I do not choose hell, but I also cant force my brain to believe something.''

    You're right. No one chooses hell (well some do knowingly). Do I believe reincarnation is possible? Sure. Is it reasonable? I would say less so. Nirvana? Actual spiritual experiences gurus and meditators have had? Sure I think so. Anything to do with God? Maybe I don't know, perhaps in a small way. Again, a positive experience does not mean it's good. You can cheat on your spouse and it would feel good, but it would cause a lot more damage in other ways.

    And then the last thing I want to address if your statement "I can't force my brain to believe something."

    Several things to point out here. One, I don't think anyone forces belief on themselves. I sure didn't when I became a Christian. It was a choice based on lots of thinking and weighing out the evidence there is for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Did I have doubts? Yes. But the scale leaned towards belief in the reality of the resurrection because there were good reasons for it. I didn't force it on myself, i didn't grow up in a Christian home (in fact, I sounded like you growing up...hated religion and especially Christians).

    Second, I nor anyone else is asking you to force any kind of belief on yourself. I mean if we're being honest, I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't trying to force your worldview on me! I am simply asking for you to think about things, weigh the evidence and draw conclusions. That's actually a Biblical mandate...something the Bible promotes.

    Just keep in mind that the evidence is what it is and how we weigh it is the basis for where we end up. If things were so black and white as you suggest it is, then we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? A belief in God is not a leap of blind faith. It's not denying reality, it's discovering reality.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    EDIT: had to add this > "It's actually quite pointless to debate actual Biblical and Scriptural things with you since you reject it outright from the get go...so let me say this..and then I'll get into some of your responses."

    OF COURSE I DO. until it proves itself with evidence/

    "Faith in the Biblical sense is not denying reality as you seem to suggest it is."

    no, its merely the insistence of the existence of something with no evidence.

    "If science and religion both have truth as their ultimate goal (which I believe it does), then there's no inherent conflict between the two."

    religion believes it has the truth and forces people to accept its position.

    Science looks at the evidence and basis the truth upon that. there is no preconceived position unlike religion.

    "No amount of scientific evidence will give us any form of spiritual truth because these aren't measurable things."

    Just like no amount of scientific evidence will give us any form of magical truth.....because magical and spiritual truth are both things that dont exist. its like saying "Disney truth".

    "Give me a measurement for love, or hate? We assess these things based on feeling, and external action. They're judgement calls, not empirical things."

    Love and hate are cultural labels we give for things we greatly approve of and greatly disapprove of. Both can be broken down to chemicals that react to external stimuli in order to help the organism survive.

    "How much free will is there to choose if something is known beyond a shadow of a doubt? "

    perhaps i should have been more liberal with my wording. but a god appearing to everyone at the same time in the same manner so that everyone can confirm their vision and we can rule out a mass delusion. that would be enough. then we would at least know god is real and we would that we arent just following myths from desert dwelling iron age sheep herders.

    it was great how you latched onto that phrase "shadow of a doubt" and use that as the basis of your argument. rather than looking at the point that was being made. but now that i have cleared up that it obviously doesnt have to be "beyond a shadow of a doubt" but just extremely obvious, you could actually think about it and address the scenario. why doesnt god make itself more obvious to everyone the same way. if he was omnipotent and omniscient he would know that this method is poor.

    "Imagine I put a gun to your head and say, "If you don't love me genuinely, I will shoot." You would tell me you love me, you might even show me physical affection as "evidence" but does that mean you genuinely love me? Heck no. Under such circumstances, it would be terribly hard to ever love me genuinely. That's why God allows room for rejection."

    but he DOESNT allow room for rejection. he IS pointing a gun to our head saying worship me or suffer. if we dont believe in him sending himself down to sacrifice himself to himself, then we suffer for eternity in hell.

    people who read the bible and end up believing in a god because they are afraid of hell and want heaven are doing exactly what you described in your scenario. and i would bet that is the majority of believers. most people wouldnt believe the nonsense in christianity if it wasnt for the promise of eternal reward and the threat of eternal punishment.

    "Listen to yourself there. Your rejection of God is not on terms of rational thinking, it's actually on the basis that you cannot accept a God who is just and fair. This statement makes you uncomfortable, therefore you deny it. That's not really digging at the truth. That's appealing to your desire to be right. Not to mention it's a straw-man argument."

    .....there is nothing humble about demanding worship or love. simple. if you cant see that it is merely because your logic is clouded by the bias of christianity.

    "So you think all of the people who encounter strange, paranormal/supernatural encounters are simply delusional? That's fairly arrogant to suggest."

    no i think its perfectly normal to say humans are very susceptible to that kind of illusionary thinking. You can look into evolutionary psychology for explanations to this.

    "What about the work of Dr. Rick Strassman on DMT? Almost all subjects encountered "other worldly creatures" and many of them had shared experiences (two people on DMT in the same room encounter the same entity)."

    yaaaaa, his "experiments" are far from scientific. most scientists in his field do not accept his work as being objective.

    "You're right. No one chooses hell (well some do knowingly). Do I believe reincarnation is possible? Sure. Is it reasonable? I would say less so."

    okay im right i dont choose hell. god sends people to hell to suffer against their will for eternity. a punishment unfitting of ANY crime. a punishment that would only be given out by a maniac.

    now how is reincarnation less reasonable than any of the nonsense you believe? dont answer that it was rhetorical.

    "Nirvana? Actual spiritual experiences gurus and meditators have had? Sure I think so."

    Nirvana is not a spiritual experience that gurus have. it is a state of transcendence that only the buddha has achieved. it is something completely metaphysical and spiritual and just as bullshit as heaven.

    "Several things to point out here. One, I don't think anyone forces belief on themselves. I sure didn't when I became a Christian. It was a choice based on lots of thinking and weighing out the evidence there is for the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

    if it were that simple everyone would come to the same conclusion like everything else that is objective. however when people like over the edge and myself look at what you call evidence we dont see it to be evidence. just like when you look at what mormons consider evidence you dont buy it.

    perhaps you are just smarter than all us and we are too stupid to understand the complexity of the evidence.....to bad god will make us suffer in hell for lacking the intelligence to see what you see.

    " Did I have doubts? Yes. But the scale leaned towards belief in the reality of the resurrection because there were good reasons for it."

    what were these good reasons for believing someone 2000 years ago raised from the dead?

    and i bet if you grew up in India you would think there was good evidence for Krishna. you are culturally bias.

    "I didn't force it on myself, i didn't grow up in a Christian home (in fact, I sounded like you growing up...hated religion and especially Christians)."

    you hated christians? I dont hate christians. you must have been young and just angsty. you werent a TRUE atheist (sound familiar?)

    "Second, I nor anyone else is asking you to force any kind of belief on yourself"

    i wasnt saying people were trying to force belief on me. my point was that I require evidence to believing anything. FAITH doesnt make sense to my brain. i NEED evidence to accept something is true. and there is insufficient evidence to do that for any kind of god.

    "Just keep in mind that the evidence is what it is and how we weigh it is the basis for where we end up. If things were so black and white as you suggest it is, then we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? A belief in God is not a leap of blind faith. It's not denying reality, it's discovering reality."

    no it is absolutely denying reality.

    just to be clear, what is your view on evolution and how old do you think the earth is?

  • facelikethesun

    “religion believes it has the truth and forces people to accept its position.
    Science looks at the evidence and basis the truth upon that. there is no preconceived position unlike religion.”

    There is plenty of preconceived notions in science. Materialism for example is very much a preconceived notion. If you study the history of modern science itself, you can see that materialism was never a scientifically verified truth. It was assumed. The basis for this view is on philosophical grounds and not any kind of scientific evidence. There is a big problem with materialistic science and I actually think that materialism is going to be more and more dismissed as we begin to discover the mind bending concepts of quantum realities. The problem is that if matter is all there is, then where does consciousness arise? Why does a collection of non-conscious matter somehow give rise to consciousness? The study of such things is in some regard, a circular argument because it is our conscious being that’s trying to find the origin of consciousness, and again, materialism has no explanation except for...”we evolved”

    “Love and hate are cultural labels we give for things we greatly approve of and greatly disapprove of. Both can be broken down to chemicals that react to external stimuli in order to help the organism survive.”

    Again, a myth that mind only exists in your head. What’s the reason for organisms wanting to continue to survive? If emotions were mere chemical reactions, you again have a self refuting argument. Your thoughts, your BELIEF that you are right...is nothing more than mere chemical reactions in the brain. That’s it. How in the world can you prove, given materialism, that the very thoughts you have are nothing more than chemicals, if it’s the chemicals themselves saying it? It’s a circular argument. I think you realize that materialism in this sense has major problems. I think that’s why many people in science and philosophy are beginning to expand the concepts of science because the historical model for materialism is crumbling. Go read a book called “The End of Materialism” by Dr. Charles Tart, one of the world’s leading philosophers. This guy’s not a Christian or anything. He’s just someone who is being honest looking at the current model of materialism and suggesting, it’s wrong, and that if we want to expand science, we have to open up to possibilities that things like souls, life after death etc exist. Another book to read is Science Set Free: 10 Paths to New Discovery By Dr.Rupert Sheldrake. He shows the 10 assumptions that are made by science that the scientific method itself cannot verify.

    “why doesnt god make itself more obvious to everyone the same way. if he was omnipotent and omniscient he would know that this method is poor.”

    How could you make such a declaration? Are you omnipotent and omniscient? I think it’s akin to sports fans show their opinions on how a play should be run, or how a coach should do something when they themselves have never played the sport or been on the field or whatever. You thinking God’s “method” is poor is a mere opinion. This again shows that your rejection, much like over the edge, is on you. Not God. You simply don’t want to believe a God that doesn’t fit in your “box.”

    Secondly, an all powerful God has the power to destroy us. In fact, His power is so great, that if He wanted to, He would just end all of this reality in an instant. Now if God, with this mighty power, was to display it in terms of making it so obvious, not only would we have no reason to reject Him, but we would fear him in the truest sense. This is an example that was described by a 19th century danish philosopher named Soren Kierkegaard. He basically made an analogy. He said, imagine an all powerful king who has the authority to destroy all the people. No one dared to reject him or speak out against him. Now imagine this king fell in love with one of the maidservants. How would he display his love for her, and how could he get her to love him? Because by simply forcing her to be with him is cruel. But pampering her to death may get her approval, but would she love him sincerely? What’s much more realistic, often portrayed in sassy love movies, is that the mighty all powerful king approaches the maidservant as an equal. This is what God did through Jesus Christ. God, an all powerful being wants a relationship with us, therefore, this all powerful being became a man...a fragile human. This is quite profound.

    “but he DOESNT allow room for rejection.”

    Ya He does...you reject him don’t you?

    “people who read the bible and end up believing in a god because they are afraid of hell and want heaven are doing exactly what you described in your scenario. and i would bet that is the majority of believers. most people wouldnt believe the nonsense in christianity if it wasnt for the promise of eternal reward and the threat of eternal punishment.”

    This is a sweeping generalization. But in all honesty, I think you fear hell...that’s why you reject God. That’s why you would rather believe He doesn’t exist because that way, you can convince yourself that you’re not responsible.

    “.....there is nothing humble about demanding worship or love. simple. if you cant see that it is merely because your logic is clouded by the bias of christianity.”

    You have it all wrong there. I don’t think you realize the weight of a being that is all powerful, all knowing, all loving etc. You seemed to claim you did earlier in the post. Think about what worship is...”reverent honor and homage paid” yes it’s usually reserved for God, but it can be for anything. I mean if you get down to it, everyone worships something. Whether it be science, yourself, etc. What do you worship? You don’t have to answer that, but just be honest.

    “okay im right i dont choose hell. god sends people to hell to suffer against their will for eternity. a punishment unfitting of ANY crime. a punishment that would only be given out by a maniac”

    Again, your presuppositions are wrong, just like the case with over the edge. God doesn’t send anyone to hell “against their will.” Hell is a separation from God. The worst of it is the lake of fire. To answer this more succinctly, let me refer to a quote by Dr. William Lane Craig, a thorn in the side of many post-modernist thinkers because he is really showing how a belief in a Christian God is logical, rational, and has a strong case in the marketplace of ideas. He states quote:

    “God is just. He is totally fair. He has no axe to grind. He is not out to get you. He is the most competent, intelligent, impartial, and fairest judge you will ever have. No one will get a bum decision at God's judgment seat. Every human being can be guaranteed absolute justice.
    But this is precisely the problem! For God's justice exposes man's inadequacy. The Bible says that every person has failed to live up to God's moral law and so finds himself guilty before God. The Biblical word for this moral failure is sin. The Bible says that "All persons are under the power of sin. None is righteous; no, not one; all have turned aside, together they have gone wrong. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" We thus find ourselves under the law of divine justice: You reap what you sow. The Bible says, "Do not be deceived; God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction. The one who sows to please God's Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life" (Gal. 6.7-8). The prophet Ezekiel declared, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ez. 18.4), and the apostle Paul echoes, "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6.23). You reap what you sow. You reap what you sow. This is justice in its purest form.
    The only problem is, nobody measures up! So, if we rely on the justice of God, we're sunk! There is nobody here who deserves to go to heaven. Nobody is good enough! So if we depend on God's justice, we've had it. It's all over.

    “what were these good reasons for believing someone 2000 years ago raised from the dead?”

    It’s too much to list in a comment section. I refer you to the works of people like Dr. Gary Habermas, William Lane Craig has also done work on this. Even people like Bart Ehrman, who is vehemently against Christianity in the scholastic world argues not against the possibility of Jesus rising from the dead, but only that history cannot confirm miracles. This is because the evidence suggests that this is either the greatest hoax of all time, or Jesus did rise from the dead. You have to make that determination for yourself. The evidence is objective.

    1. Jesus, whom the Christian faith is based, was killed by crucifixion.
    2. the tomb was empty
    3. women found the empty tomb
    4. people witnessed and interacted with a risen Jesus

    These are points of facts. Now again, they themselves do not “prove” that He rose from the dead, but notice how it gives enough evidence for us to decide. Much like in a court where the evidence is laid out. You still have the freedom to reject it.

    “and i bet if you grew up in India you would think there was good evidence for Krishna. you are culturally bias”

    This is called the genetic fallacy. It’s like saying, “"John claims that 1+1=2. However, my parents brought me up to believe that 1+1=254, so John must be wrong."

    “FAITH doesnt make sense to my brain. i NEED evidence to accept something is true.”

    You don’t realize it takes faith to even say that. You have faith in the evidence you see, that it’s true etc. There is a serious flaw in your logic there. I mean think of Carl Sagan’s “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” How does a person know that that statement is true? The claim itself is quite extraordinary and requires extraordinary evidence to show it’s true. I bring up again and again the word “presuppositions” because everyone has them. You and over the edge fail to address what your presuppositions are. When you begin to dig into those, you can start seeing if your beliefs stand on logic and “evidence” or not. And it’s something that we all should work on.

    Another point I want to make is that you put extreme FAITH in your own senses. You said you need evidence to accept something is true. How do you know the evidence is true? How do you know your rendering of the evidence is true? Let me give you an example. This will also allude to your “evolution and how old is the earth” question.

    Let’s say you walk into a bathroom and you see a bathtub full of warm water. Now someone asks you “how long did it take to fill up that tub of water?” So you weigh all the options. You feel the water and it’s warm, so you know it must have been recent. You measure the volume of the water. Then you measure the pressure of the faucet. You then find that the faucet turned all the way up gives 1 gallon of water per minute, and the tub has 8 gallons of water in it. Conclusion, based on what you see, feel etc, is that it took 8 minutes to fill up the tub of water. It’s a good estimation. But what is the reality of the situation was that someone came in before with a bucket full of 4 gallons of hot water. That would throw off your conclusion. The evidence that you had is not the entirety of the evidence, but you didn’t even consider that someone would bring in 4 gallons of hot water.

    Do you see my point? Evidence can only take you so far. You can make educated guesses, but it doesn’t mean you have the sole truth. The rest, the gaps that are filled, is FAITH. You would be using faith to suggest that it took 8 minutes to fill up the tub. Which might be true in all instances except that one time when you were asked to measure the tub etc.

    So again, you do use faith everyday to fill in the gaps of life. Another example. When you drive, you have no proof that people will stop at a stoplight. You have good reasons to believe they will, because evidence suggests that people usually do. But you don’t have concrete proof that this time they will. You are acting on FAITH that when you proceed on a green light, that other people driving perpendicular to you are going to stop at the red light.

    “just to be clear, what is your view on evolution and how old do you think the earth is?”

    Not sure what this has to do with the conversation, but I think I’ve made my case. I think evolution does occur, but I think it’s ridiculous to conclude therefore that we evolved from apes, which evolved from primordial goo. I have read the papers, spoken to biologists, both who agree and disagree with biological evolution of a species. They both have compelling cases and arguments, but again, the evidence doesn’t change. Why the discrepancy? Presuppositions.

    As with the age of the universe, I believe it depends on the perspective. Time is not consistent. Especially since we understand that time and space are not consistent based on gravity. The work of Dr. Gerald Schroader, a physicist and a Jew, gives a great case for the compatibility of a 6000 year old earth and a 15 billion year old earth based on the point of reference. He gives mathematical calculations to show that these things are consistent, especially given the theory of general relativity.

    That’s all I will say on that for now. We can go on and on with these topics.

  • Achems_Razor

    I realize this is a discussion between you and Epicurus. But?
    You have said these are facts? sorry but you offer no facts at all, all hearsay after the facts?? you cannot even offer proof there was any facts at all.

    You are still doing your water down the drain fallacy, but now you have switched to a bathtub I see.

    Quantum?? you are doing "quantum woo" google it.

    You still keep on the I don't believe we came from apes thing, you have been told repeatedly we did not come from apes or primordial ooze, typical religee in one ear and out the other, it is a complete waste of time for me to discourse with you, others may try. I wish them luck.

  • seamus watson

    I thought Obama said he was a strong christian. Then he stands and rips the bible to pieces.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anthony-Adkins/100000600597531 Anthony Adkins

    what a load of crap

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    I guess you understand why i stopped responding eh.

  • Achems_Razor

    Yes, I gathered as much. lol

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    when did he rip the bible to pieces? i must have missed that video.

  • uuddlrlraass

    nwo is a rough and ready organization composed of satan, gays, scientists, jews, buddhists, hindus, obama, vampires, the lost continent of atlantis, ufo's, science fiction writers, musims, the sun, and catholics. They are out to enslave you and your only hope is to personally cease any query of both science and spirituality. Fanatical christianity is so pure and true it could never hurt anyone. jesus shoots................HE SCORES!!!!!!!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002723372216 Darren Bell

    Don't be so secular and ignorant, the groups of individuals expressed are broad terms that are used to describe large closely associated groups and if you think they all 'sing from the same rhyme' sheet your mad, If Jesus existed (Which according Roman and Greek Historians he didn't, not one mentioned someone named 'Jesus') he is a man that is long dead, get off your moral high horse and join reality, equality exists deal with it.

  • Jburns1

    The bible -(collection of small books) is only a retelling of more ancient oral accounts. Let's look at Genisis 4. After it explains the first 5 "days" of creation in Genisis 1 - 3. It starts over and states this is the generation of the beginning and there were no men to cultivate the earth.

    Hmm - Genisis 1 - 3 just went through a 6 day creation story ending with god creating man in his image to hold dominion over the world. If he just created man why weren't there men to cultivate? Also you might be interested to know this story includes that they found gold and found it good. Of course it was good the "Lords" needed gold for their dieing planet. They were talking about two accounts and they were talking about the advent of agriculture. (Look it up)

    Go back to theology school. When you can intelligently talk about the contridictions that mar the entire work of the "bible"let's talk. The new testament's oldest book Matthew ends at chapter 9. In the other books they add more detail and end up with I believe at least 16 chapters or verses

    Whats interesting is all accounts relay the same story until we come to chapter 9 - after that the three other gospils (testimony) give different accounts and details. Everyone loves a good story and even then authors were vying to get theirs read.

    Believe it - Jesus is a symbol; the symbol of the picean age. Just like moses was the symbol of the arian age.

  • http://twitter.com/OxygenLynne Lynne Gordon

    "Science looks at the evidence and basis the truth upon that. there is no preconceived position unlike religion."

    And how exactly can SCIENCE do that? We live in a world that we can never see, touch, hear, feel or smell. We are totally unable to connect with the world outside of our bodies.

    When we say we 'see' a bird. What has happened is that light has bounced off of 'something' and those light waves (electromagnetic energy) has entered our eyes, traveled along a nerve as an electrical pulse and struck the visual cortex of our brain.

    Then our dark, silent brain (no light can enter this enclosed area) forms a picture in the back of itself of what we believe to be a bird.

    If we touch the 'bird', the same thing happens through our neural net. Electrical pulses travel through our body to our brain and based on those electrical impulses, our brain says that we are touching a bird.

    So how can we ever know 100% that anything we study in the name of SCIENCE is really what we tell ourselves it is.

    SCIENCE is a poor excuse upon which to base any belief system because we can not interact with the world outside of what our brain tells us is there. Because of that, SCIENCE can never prove or disprove anything.

    "...for now we see through a glass darkly..."

  • dewflirt

    Your comment made me think of children shutting their eyes and believing that they are invisible or that the world has vanished. We wouldn't know there was anything outside of ourselves if we didn't have our senses, and if there was it wouldn't matter. Even one sense alone would be enough to prove to ourselves that we exist and exist somewhere. I guess any exploration from that point on would be science.
    'When we see a bird, what we see is light bouncing of a something'
    It doesn't matter what that something is, if we all agree that a thing like that is a bird then it's a bird. Even if we want it to be a kangaroo. As far as I know, no belief system is based on science, that wouldn't be belief, it would be knowledge. Belief is what you have when you have no facts ;)

  • dewflirt

    Out of curiosity, which glass darkly? :)

  • Achems_Razor

    How can you say that "SCIENCE can never prove or disprove anything" when what you wrote comes from science itself?? even on a from (science) computer yet, goodness gracious!

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    said the woman using a computer and the internet.

    lol do you not understand the irony?!

  • Jamie Macdonald

    started good but is completly bioist i agree with some points however the bible has been rewiten that many times and also writen over the course of hunders of year it is not a good refrence point basicly what a loas of eve angelical cristain american bull s*it yours sinserly 911 lol

  • uuddlrlraass

    im all for equality. my comment was simply poking at the fear mongering employed in this video. didnt think anyone would actually take me literally. that said, I wonder why greek historians never documented jesus...........

  • facelikethesun

    @Jburns1

    I will respectfully disagree with your points here. You seem to adhere to the works of Zacharia Sitchin which have been thoroughly debunked by Dr. Mike Heiser (an actual language scholar unlike Mr. Sitchin) Just google "Sitchin is wrong" and you will find his website.

    First off, what you're referring to with no man to till the ground is not talking about no human being to farm. Rather, it was saying we didn't need to farm. If you keep reading the verse, it says "a mist came up from under the ground to water the face of the earth" in other words, no need to farm because the mist was watering everything.

    Second, the book of Mark is thought of as the oldest book in the NT, not Matthew.

    Third, if you have 4 records of eye witness testimony (that is recordings of people who actually saw the events...not necessarily the authors own experiences) then you're bound to have some details which don't align. Think of it this way, say you have a crime scene and you get 4 people to retell what happened. The more you dig, the more details you might receive. But if every detail lined up perfectly, would you be suspicious that the 4 people were colluding? So in fact, in a court setting, some variations in the events actually helps verify a claim, not dismiss it.

    Jesus is not a symbol. Don't tell people to go back to theology school when your claim itself is rooted in 19th century anti-christian literature.

  • Jburns1

    I do stand corrected on the oldest book. Yes it is Mark - I always get that small point mixed up. The major point on that is the council at Nicea voted on which books to canonize that supported their view that Jesus was divine, somewhere around 323 AD. You see one of the guys on the divine side broke the nose of one of the guys on the non-divine side and guess what the votes were cast for divine. (Nothing new under the sun.)

    I find it hard to believe that a caveman squatting under a tree 50,000 years ago came up with the equilateral cross symbol, circle, and understanding of the universe that boggles the minds of present day "scholars", on his own.

    Also, some biblical "scholars" suggest that the writings of the new testiment are much older than first thought and that Revelations should be in the old testiment based on its age. Could it be an eyewitness account of the first nuclear explosion and the evil wind?

    And, finally my friend, yes, Jesus is a symbol. (The following is my conjecture only.)

    Jesus - Age of Pieces (Fish Symbol)
    Moses - Age of Aries (Ram Symbol)
    Baal, Bael, Babylon - Age of Taurus (Bull symbol)
    Rise of Eypyt (pyrimids, sphinx) - Age of Leo (Lion symbol)
    Duality, communication, - Age of Gemini (Twin symbol)
    The deluge and after; crawling out - Age of Cancer (Crab symbol)
    Isis, Ishtar, Agriculture - Age of Virgo (Woman with grain symbol)
    Creating the firmaments (universe) - Age of Libra (Scales symbol)

    As far as I gotten - About 16,000 est years ago if it was the first time around the zodiac. 200,000 est years if you look at 8 times around the zodiac.

  • Jburns1

    Sounds like a very scientific analysis of how our brain works - how'd you do that? : )

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/ANQJ5WV6IPGIR4QWS2DZBTB4GA zijad m

    bottom line, nobody knows what they are talking about. I dont care about your religious scriptures and how you interpret them, i dont care for any new scientific discovery attempting to answer the unanswerable questions. Here is the ultimate truth...we are all going to die not knowing what truth is. no point of arguing, its all hearsay.

  • Crashtrolley

    Wow. If the claims of this documentary are as ridiculous as the vast majority say, why waste time in debate, deriding and reacting with such venom towards a film? One thing life has taught me is that when I see a reaction being illicited like I have here, its worthy of a look to see what upset folk. Again, I dont feel TDF admin staff (Vlatko) should be offering criticism of anyones opinions (FaceLikeTheSun's) and the anti-christian sentiment IS rife throughout the site. Krockcfd,I agree. I am a Christian, love everyone of you and pray one day you will share the hope I enjoy. Ex Military, now a registered nurse, I have been down every dirty road you have, likely even worse. I'm a natural cynic, I understand your doubt and it gives the impression of control, I wont criticise you for that. Im not a fanatic but I love the Lord Jesus, to the point I would die for him. 'To live is Christ, to Die is Gain'. I have seen death my whole working life, ugly thing. Have lived with doubt and suspicion towards God but I'm human. Thankfully, Christ is real and I dont need to debate or contest with anyone as Ive done it all with myself and drew my conclusions. Dont kid yourselves Christians have all commited intellectual suicide, there is an ongoing internal debate. Thankfully, 'Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ' being, we are in good hands, us who are indeed in God's hands. Peace guys, all of you, it's beautiful and yours for the taking.

  • Achems_Razor

    you say..."Thankfully, Christ is real and I don't need to debate or contest with anyone as I done it all with myself and drew my conclusions."

    Your conclusions don't mean diddly squat unless you can offer empirical evidence for your assertions! You are making a claim, so the onus is on you to prove it!...Well?

  • Crashtrolley

    Achems Razor (play on Occam's, like it)....Mmm, that actually suggests the most plausable explanation is the most realistic (definitions vary but thats the jist). That alone is an argument for intelligent design, not the blindingly staggering odds required for progressive evolution from single amino acids to rise into...well, you and me chum. That argument gets tedious though so we wont go there. All comes down to Faith and choice. Don't deride people for being creatures of conscience and faith, usually makes them better people and reliable and faithful to those around. A truly scientific mind can be a beautiful thing and helpfully objective and honest. Dont spoil your contribution to a conversation cause you undermine yourself through derision of those you contend with or insult the object of their devotion.

  • Achems_Razor

    Am not deriding anyone, nor insulting the objects or your devotion, and am not undermining myself, am asking for proof of your assertions, mere words are not proof of your invisible only in the mind deities/friends from your la,la, land, your post still means squat. Sorry.

    I see you are doing the ID "blindly staggering odds" tired passe ID arguments. I do not have to show proof, you do, you made the claims.

  • Crashtrolley

    I didn't make a single claim, read my post again. Not a very scrutinous scientific mind you posses after all. Oh, ftr, I've seen a thousand like you on chatrooms, forums etc. You are what people call a troll, you do realise that? Usually people who demand these 'proofs for God' are highly egocentric, wounded, intellectually blind, lonely and often, involved in the occult. They linger around videos like this, hoping to catch some weak happless victim in a snare of hate, resentment, doubt and angst. I have no interest in debating you, I have taken a lifetime to look at life, weigh up the pro's and cons, make my own mistakes and decisions and draw my conclusions. You have clearly already drawn yours. If you truly desire to be convinced, God will provide you with that as I never could. God bless you sir

  • Crashtrolley

    What's a good lookin video like you doing in a dump like this?

  • Achems_Razor

    I'm a troll? at least you made me laugh!

    No claims?? You said your deity, your lord the big JC is real. prove he exists or even existed.

    Prove your invisible god/gods exist that you pay reference to.

    Typical of most religee's, always resort to ad hominem when they are cornered. Getting personal with all your nefarious remarks to me.

    Funny religee's!

  • Achems_Razor

    You are calling TDF a dump? go to a religious website, where you might be welcomed with open arms. Or maybe not? who knows.

  • GRUMPY25608

    Hey SH*T for brains do you understand how stu*id you are????

    I'm also ex military, so before you rattle of crap you have not proved with evidence, pick up your book of lies and crawl back from under the rock you came from you brain dead pr*ck

  • GRUMPY25608

    Sorry for rudely jumping in like that however, fools that like need to be slapped repeatly as they are as thick as two short planks.

    I have found TDF to be informative and extremely enjoyable, not only the doco's but the forums as well.

    Keep up the good work you guys .....:)

  • docoman

    You are not unique in chat rooms either, religious nutters like you are a 'dime a dozen', with little 'gems' like your, "I've taken a lifetime to look at life". That silly remark is about the extent of your 'evidence'. Or like, "One thing life has taught me is that when I see a reaction being illicited like I have here, its worthy of a look to see what upset folk."
    Have you noticed the reaction to pedophile priests and the Church's illegal actions? I guess by your logic you'll be 'taking a closer look' at pedophilia then, there must be something to it. :(

    You claim evolution has long odds, here's some math for you. 0 evidence x's religion's ravings = 0. Evolution is still the more 'plausible answer', despite your ridiculous twist on it.

    You said;
    "Usually people who demand these 'proofs for God' are highly egocentric, wounded, intellectually blind, lonely and often, involved in the occult. They linger around videos like this, hoping to catch some weak happless victim in a snare of hate, resentment, doubt and angst."

    Nice little preach, here's one back at ya;

    Usually people who claim these 'Gods' are highly egocentric, wounded, intellectually blind, brainwashed and often involved in some 'pedophile safe' church. That or they're lying, manipulating, power hungry scum that end up becoming church leaders. They linger around places like people's FRONT DOORS, hoping to catch some weak, hapless victim in a snare of lies, manipulation, theft, guilt and false forgiveness, unsubstantiated claims containing promises and threats. They'll 'play' with kids or illegally cover for their peers that did. Then they'll look you in the eye and claim they're the decent, moral people in this world and they love you, even though you're lost.

    Of all the dirty streets you've claimed to walk, the most blood stained, dishonest and morally repulsive path you've walked is the one just inside your church's front door.

  • Crashtrolley

    Sorry, clearly a lot if time went into that rant, unfortunately, I haven't the time or inclination to either read it or continue a conversation which I feel is to your detriment more than mine. Gid bless

  • docoman

    Lol, clearly took a lot of time? No it didn't actually, you're wrong again. If you'd bother to read it, much of it was mirroring your rant. ;) As I said, you're not as unique as your ego would like to think, the same 'ole BS Christian arguments, and I learned to touch type years ago, so it doesn't take me much time. :)

    And your non answers will be taken for what it really is, a lack of evidence or any decent argument to reply with. A weak attempt at changing the point to try to avoid exposing your dismal critical thinking abilities with your absurd arguments and assertions.

    Ex-military? Hmmm. Every veteran I've ever talked with weren't p1ss weak like yourself. As another ex military poster said to you earlier, prove your assertions or otherwise take your book of lies back under the rock you crawled out from.

  • docoman

    And how exactly would you know it was a 'rant' unless you read it? Either you did read it and you're lying, or you didn't as you said, so your claim of a 'rant' is another BS assertion by you. Which is it? Either way you're full of sh1t. lol.

    And you can stick your 'Gid bless'. ;)

  • AntiTheist666

    Beautifully put docoman.

  • AntiTheist666

    Dear Grumpy

    I’m sure you can see I’m using softening up tactics already but anything is worth a try. I am a grumpy git too and agree with lots you have to say but I do wish you’d ease up on the name calling.

  • GRUMPY25608

    My comment was directed to an ex military serviceman and as such my reply to him was in military language that I'm sure he could understand being from another ex service member.

    I regret that you have taken offence to it and I try to show people the respect or lack of respect that I believe they deserve, and my opinion of that individual deserves the folly he recieved.

  • AntiTheist666

    Absolutely no offence at all taken. It was just my delicate and sensitive nature to make such a whiny old pom request.

  • GRUMPY25608

    Mate, if you could hear the response to some of these people that goes through my head, compared to what I actually write you would know that I do censor my posts to the best of my ability.....:)

  • Crashtrolley

    Okey doke. Here it is. Grumpy, that you are. An aussie and to be honest, that in my mind makes you an ally and an ex member of a fantasic standing army independant of the British Army (which I was proud to be a part of) yet immersed in the same traditions. You have my respect for that. Ya butted in on a conversation that had nothing to do with you mate so I wont engage you. Docoman, you have zero experience of military life, combat, or what it is like. Your ignorance in making ANY statement about these matters is contemptible and suggestive that you know just as little about the spiritual realities you mock. You werent even rear echelon. I have more respect for the opinion of any enemy troop I've ever stood against and again, you butted in on a conversation that had nothing to do with you, so I wont engage you, or respect you. I came here to watch a vid, leave a comment and look around. All I see is exactly what I said I had earlier. In summary, profound religious intolerance, a lack of discipline and self control, hatred, slander and cursing. You lost your credibility with me the minute you shouted 'PROVE' and then damned me. All you guys did was prove my point and reinforce my convictions. I can never prove God and dont need to. Because I mention him you shout I am required to prove him? Do I have to prove my military service? I stated that also. I didn't come to preach but I will defend my faith, my brothers, sisters and the name of my God.

  • docoman

    Lol. I can't find where I 'yelled' PROVE to you? I may have, I can't see it. Sometimes I capatalise words to high-light them, like I did with 'BS' and FRONT DOORS. I was meaning to highlight it, not yell, but take it as you wish.
    Sounds more like another BS diversion, which seems to be your SOP. With an emphasis on BS.

    About butting in on a conversation, it's a public forum, you called most that dare question your religion and ask for some proof lots of names, you called this site a dump. I have every right to respond, so HTFU and take back what you dish out, ya sook.

    And yes, I wasn't even a POG, firstly my country wasn't at war and didn't require me, and secondly I have health reasons precluding my acceptance to the ADF, so up yours mate. I won't be told what I can and can't talk about by you.
    You are not an Atheist, but that didn't stop you commenting on them. So why am I not allowed to comment on anything military, even though I didn't really, only what you appear to be, namely p1ss weak.

    Actually, my 'p1ss weak' remark was questioning your service claims. As I've said, I've not talked to a Veteran that was as weak minded as you seem to be. And I do and have known a few. I've also met a few 'BS artists' claiming to be ex military, so you wouldn't be unique there either.

    Not one part of your post addressed any of the questions asked of you, it was just another misdirection effort on your part. A weak effort at that.

    Edit- if you really are a Veteran, I accept and acknowledge that I have no knowledge of what combat is like, and can respect your service. I'll respect your uniform, not necessarily the person in it.

  • GRUMPY25608

    Mate, if you want a private conversation ring "GOD HOTLINE", this site is a public documentary and discussion site. That being the case myself or anyone else has the right to make comments on all posts regardless of who the post may have been directed to.

    If you don't like the response your getting it may pay you to find a site more to your beliefs as this site has shown that most people deal with facts and evidence to back up the statements made. If your claims are questioned you should be grateful that there are people taking an interest in what you have written. If and when I've had doubts about posts I have made I believe it is my responsabilty to ensure that I can show evidence to those statements or claims I'm making.

    From what I have witnessed on the religion date is as soon as a sceptic or athiest question the belief of a person with religious views the same responses appear, which inturn throws more weight to our arguement.

    I find your intolerance to be extremely hypocritical as a man of faith.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=510559888 Ammar Salim

    May be peace upon you
    Okay I a Muslim(not a very good one) and i really liked the documentry,what i really liked was the similaraties between the two religious scrilptures, but what i didnt liked was "how only the christians wont believe in new ethopia(i if get it right)"actually it is clearly written that there will be false (so called ethopia) and signs how to identifiy it and only the people with pure faith will identify the deception(very small number) and in Islam it also tells some of the identifications.
    1. A higher being with some sort of problem in one eye(basic iluminati signature b.t.w)
    2.will have the power to control unconcious mind of humans
    3.could give death and birth again
    4.would have flat shoulders(unlike humans=curvy)
    and more basically signs of Messiha(false Christ)

    As far as the orignality of the scripts and contradictions,I could speak but it is not the topic

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=510559888 Ammar Salim

    for the islamic and observatory point of view on the issue ,people interested should watch "The Arrivals" and you will find a lot of similar things.

  • docoman

    "Mate, if you want a private conversation ring "GOD HOTLINE""
    I believe the number to call is 666 isn't it? ;)

  • GRUMPY25608

    Don't know the only time I tried, I've used the porcilene phone, and mind you the bastards lines always busy.....:)

  • docoman

    "I had a dream last night I drank the worlds largest margarita, woke up this morning and there was salt on the toilet lid.... thank god I didn't eat the worm in there..." - Larry the Cable Guy.

  • docoman

    Assalamu alaikum, keif Halak? Welcome to TDF mate.

    I'm an average agnostic. (non-believer in the Religions, unknown on whether there is or isn't some form of deity) Bein fakkeiyy il kammaasa :)
    (I only know a little Arabic, I had the pleasure of living in Egypt for awhile. I had to look up how to write it properly. ;)

    Of course there are what you believe to be things 'Christians won't believe' compared to Muslims. If you look at the issue without bias, it goes exactly the same way back, there are things that Christians don't like that Muslims 'won't believe', (and most other beliefs/religions). That's why different religions fight each other, and more poignantly , even within the same religion.
    I've not been able to find anything that is approaching some evidence that any of the scriptures are 'the word of God', let alone one version being 'more correct' then another. Mafiis fayda.

    Can you give me anything other then the scripture itself, or personal claims by people that can't be checked or verified in any way, any evidence at all that doesn't require an element of faith? Saying you see a creator in nature isn't evidence, evolution has explained that quite well, without the need for a 'God'. So that doesn't qualify as evidence for, in fact does the opposite, it shows your scriptures to be incorrect in places.

    And to your point No. 2, "will have the power to control unconcious mind of humans"

    The fact that anyone truly believes any scripture's extraordinary claims without evidence, other then the scripture itself, shows that your No.2 is, and has been for a long time, not only possible but is in use now. That has been one of Religions main tools for thousands of years, ingrain it young so they believe something without it being shown to be actually true. Without you realising it, you've been brainwashed into believing things like demons, winged horses ect ect ect. are actually real.

    Shukran.

  • http://www.facebook.com/rocky.racoon.334 Rocky Racoon

    Like there aren't any problems than need the whole world to cooperate over like global warming what we need are little localized mini-states they can really stand up to the Imperialists now cant' they. Political upshot of this nonesense says it is not in the average persons interest NOT to hook up globally with others to fight these fights Workers of the world UNITE. While the elite may be at each others throats one thing they agree on is to hold the working class down and keep the present political economy in place we need to supercede it and local and particular identity politics ain't gonna cut it.
    RR

  • http://www.facebook.com/rocky.racoon.334 Rocky Racoon

    The illuminati weren't they a bunch of scientists who didn't believe in god or the monarchies of the day and preferred science over superstition the perfectability of man human progress and democracy? Sounds less like Satan and more like Rousseau to me. However ya spell it.
    RR

  • jucurrie

    I recently shared a dream with a friend of mine about the end of time and how the second coming of Christ happen. In my dream I was watching the news and was concerned about so many people who were taken and yet so many left behind. The worst was that I was one left behind. I had accepted Jesus as my Savior but for some reason I was left behind. In my dream there was a panic due to all the missing people and a world wide census had to be taken to account for those missing. On the news the President stated that there was a belief that there was an alien abuduction and there was no rapture as the Christians would like to have you believe.

    The census insisted that everyone must be marked in order to keep track of the people and anyone who refused to be marked would be considered a terrorist threat or in a partnership with the abduction. Those people would be exterminated to protect the rest of society.

    I had this dream a very long time ago when I was a teenager. I am now in my fifties. I shared this dream with a friend of mine who in turn shared this documentry with me. I cannot help but wonder how the end will be. The main thing is, dont be foolish. Question things and research it...knowledge really is powerful. And yes, Iam still a Christian

  • http://www.facebook.com/charlotte.waddington Charlotte Waddington

    why do you bother watching these docu's if all you mean to do is trash them at the end? have you really nothing better to do? of course not, you've no friends....bless.....
    of course you know better, you the so open minded great oness, try an education on for size, or let me guess...you decided to breed instead...hahaha

  • Achems_Razor

    You do not plan to troll do you? as this is a troll comment.

  • Peter Proppa

    the guys who narrates...he talks 'quote' about people as if the people are well known to the public... adds frantic quotes and pressures lost Christians with his paranoia pretending its scientific...

  • Peter Proppa

    isnt reading out words and looking while a narrator narrates seem a form of brainwashing itself?

  • Peter Proppa

    Does anyone realize that the story at 1 hr 21 mins the guys was possibly maybe just maybe dreaming???? deluded weirdos

  • Mick Dagger

    so, in short, satan is bad? and the bible explains everything? insightful, huge research, and very informative. but, the amount of insanity needed to even make these leaps between bad things and theories, is just mindblowing, and the fact that someone would make this "documentary", and belive it, is f*cking scary.

  • facelikethesun

    Yep. Just trying to brain wash you.

  • facelikethesun

    Does a quote have to be from people who are well known to the public? Talk about appealing to authority. When did I claim that this documentary was scientific?

  • Heather Ireland

    I beg to differ with the critics, who think this documentary is unworthy of being listed here. I certainly don't agree with everything, especially the religious dogma presented here, but, unlike some other documentaries I've seen, there was a great deal of research that has gone into the production of this documentary, much of which is factual and backed up with various interviews and recorded clips. This documentary is comparable to others I have seen, all of which provide their own slant on conspiracies and a New World Order. I don't think there is one documentary out there that presents truth and reality 100% because there is not one person on earth who knows what that is. I think it's important to appreciate the fact that there are some people who are at least thinking about and exploring what life and reality is about, who as a result, get those of us who bother to listen to what they have to say, thinking and talking... which is far better than those who simply live life believing everything they are told and zoning out on MTV or another stupid episode of the Kardashians. Agree or disagree with what is presented here, I for one found it worth watching and am grateful to the person(s) who took the time to make this.

  • Shyam Becker

    Some serious disinformation here. Maybe some of the New World Order / Illuminati stuff is true, but all there are many things in this video -- such as denial of the law of karma and the even denial of the very nature of the human being -- that are dangerous. It seems there is a voice in this that deeply opposed to the positive transformation that is under way. Beware!

  • tony

    so so sad Christians have have been ruling with fear and lies for so long and after 1600 + years people are still buying into it :(

  • christ saves

    a real blessing. i am sharing it with others. i would also recommend "after the tribulation"

  • christ saves

    you really should check out "after the tribulation" on youtube

  • christ saves

    my friend its is not by the mind but by faith. when you take a leap chooses to believe your eyes will be opened and you will begin to understand. but first you have to be born-again.

  • docoman

    Yep, one has to first believe in the delusion before 'seeing' the delusion.
    Nevertheless, it is nothing more then a 'human only' delusion. It has everything to do with your mind; your lack of applying it that is, and surrendering your thoughts in exchange for those of others.
    The only thing I've seen 'born again'.... needed to be flushed.

  • Jorge Gutierrez

    Jesus Christ is The Lord,God.

  • James George

    and so are all of us, well according to Jesus.

  • mia

    Christianity is a walk with people, but most importantly its a walk with God, wisdom comes from God. As far as being a delusion, most of the world believes in a spiritual realm, And by alrights it is non-sense, because it isn't weighed by our senses which is what we are used to weighing things by.If you can't touch, see, hear, taste or feel it, it can't be real. That is why it is called faith. And the bible although the books were written so far apart from each other is perfectly accurate, prophecies have been proven to be %100 accurate, even predicting the year Christ would be born!!! Go through the prophecies in the book of Daniel and you would be shocked!!

  • mia

    The bible is thee most disputed book in all of history if it were misinterpreted don't you think we would know that by now????

  • mia

    Since we're all about Facts here, where did you get yours?? I have never heard that Jesus doesn't exist before.

  • Norumore

    what kind of documentation is this video has to demonstrate that
    New Age is part of the NWO agenda?
    and who decided and has the knowledge to say that we are (or are not) immortal?
    at min 17 when saying that NWO wants us to believe that god is within us and that we are immortal....well who's talking must believe that he's god already to decide that we are not immortal.
    believing in immortality has nothing to do with their agenda, it has been part of most ancient eastern philosophies that have nothing to do with this filthy elite.
    this negative mind set and the idea that everything is part of a conspiracy leads me to think that this video is part of the whole "we have no hope" concept, which fits perfectly in their agenda by the way.
    well for sure they are worshipping some kind of negative force...and for sure they are doing their interests...but crap video editing with drama music is not the right way to inform people.
    much better videos regarding this topic "The Esoteric Agenda" and
    "The art of deception"

  • phertyl

    I would have enjoyed this so much more of the narrator did not have a speech impediment.

  • sabretruthtiger

    Hitler, Mao, Stalin and the Darwinist new world order are not Christian and have killed many many times the number of people that Christians have killed. Christians have been persecuted through the ages by extremely evil people like yourself.
    Your analysis of religion is typical of the low IQ Atheist. "male off-planet deity." No.

    There is no physical location specified as God created time and space he exists beyond time and space. Also God is sexless but is referred to as he for practicality and psychological,philosophical reasons too abstract for you to understand.

    "You abide to insane rules which justify perpetual violence and create a victim-perpetrator scenario:

    No.

    Christianity promotes love, peace, family and individual rights which is antithetical to the murderous, collectivist, Communist new world order.

    You should never,ever, ever breed.

  • Samuel Morrissey

    Hitler was an occultist, a sort of religious megalomaniac. Mao and Stalin were both anti-religion agreed. The Darwinist new world order? care to elaborate on that? it sounds like a rather peculiar fantasy to me. Bear in mind that politicians in the US and the UK have to at least on their public face aspire to religion of one sort or another, for fear of losing the fundamentalist/evangelist/non-secular vote. Christianity in the US discriminates against non-believers holding positions in office in many of the individual state constitutions - which are clearly in violation of the secular federal constitution.

    'have killed many times the number of people Christians have killed' - evidence please or you are talking out of your rear end. Lets see those figures...

    'extremely evil people like yourself' - exactly what do you base that judgement on? an anonymous post in a documentary site comments board? Doesn't your book tell you that you are not qualified to make such judgements?

    'There is no physical location specified as God created time and space he
    exists beyond time and space. Also God is sexless but is referred to as
    he for practicality and psychological,philosophical reasons too
    abstract for you to understand.'
    - again evidence please or you are talking out of your rear end. Oh and the psychological/philosophical reasons - you mean that women are inferior to men as your book also elaborates, I assume. that or the fact that women have long been slaves to patriarchal regimes run by, let me see now, devoutly religious men? what's wrong with 'it' if sexless is what 'it' is?

    You should never, ever, ever, have authority over 'whom' should or shouldn't breed. I guess that was just the best insult you could come up with whilst trying to seem rational, hmmm? Why bother? say what you mean, and mean what you say.

  • docoman

    Well said, but good luck on getting any sensible answers to your questions. I also would love to see the estimated figures on who killed how many, over what time. What are the estimated stats, has anyone tallied them up?

  • dewflirt

    Ok, I'm curious! If you met another Christian whose idea of god differed from yours, would you think he had built a god to suit himself and was actually worshipping his own idea, not the 'true' god? I just wonder how everyone thinks they know SO much about a person they have never met. Where did god ever say he was neither male nor female? I thought jesus called him Father, if he was neither Arthur nor Martha he/it should have been called Leslie or maybe Charlie. So, how personal is god to each person? Do you think only you know him well or are you part of a church that shares your views? What if it turns out that the church down the road knows Leslie better than everyone else? What if only one person on the planet has him sussed? See, you've thrown your lot in with one version of god - your own. Sort of suggests that you are your own god. You created him in your image? Why not edge your bets and follow them all... or none of them, so as not to offend? Surely best to treat them all equally don't you think, that way they can't really judge you either way. You'd just be a decent chap, pleasant enough company on a long flight ;)

  • tomregit

    Actually both Hitler and Mussolini were Roman Catholic, so I'm going to call them an Christians.

  • tomregit

    You should dumb it down and write "lol" after your comment because there are too damned many who cannot recognize sarcasm, humor, tongue in cheek, etc.

  • DigiWongaDude

    Agreed. Wise advice.

  • You Lie

    "Is there a connection between UFOs, alien abductions, channeling spirits, demonic possessions, the new age movement, secret societies, and satanism?"

    Yes. The connection is they are all fake. If you think any of this is real you're a m.ron. The NWO ohhh nooo!! Illuminati ohh nooo! "They" are coming for you.

    Make sure you double up on your tinfoil hat when you watch this.

  • Rampage

    According to God? That's called circular reasoning.

    How do you know that's the good god and not the bad one?

  • Kevin

    LOL with an introduction like that, I have to watch this. Preferably high.

  • wjy

    I really enjoyed this docco.. Thank you Gonzo Shimura! The only problem was I disagreed with the guy who alleges that Jesus was calling himself God. Nowhere in the bible does Jesus ever call himself God, nor did he ever accept being worshipped! The Greek & Hebrew scriptures translate that Jesus, on many occasions, did say that he was doing the work on earth for his father, God.
    John 14:6,7 Jesus said to him (Jesus talking to Thomas): "I am the way and the truth and the life,
    No one comes to the Father except through me.
    If you men had known me, you would have known my Father also;

  • amy

    wow that is so freaking awesome. i believe God can speak through dreams. that would be the perfect cover up too (alien abduction.) and for anyone who thinks Christians are "crazy.." YES most Christians are crazy. I don't even believe they're Christians. I know that sounds harsh but if you look at their lives, I don't see Christ. Most people associate Christianity in America with JESUS. They couldn't be more opposite. Jesus never even said "go to church." that is what people equate with being a Christian. Going to church....behavior modification...denomination tribal mentality.....us against them.....conservative dogma...oh my GOD. Jesus couldn't be more different. Check him out. Read HIS words in the New Testament and leave the crazy organized Satan ran religion out of it. Jesus is simple and beautiful. He was peaceful, accepting and homeless! He said "follow me." NOT go to church...judge others....bash gays.....be unloving....be rich and wealthy.......I assure you if you seek the true "Christ" out you will be floored. And you will be PISSED OFF at "Christianity" and the huge hoax it has turned into.

  • Jabsdna

    I've read the Bible most of my life and tried to understand it but , it was always so hard until I really started reading Revelations. Every time I read it now it's just like watching the Bible actually come to life before my very eyes!! It is AWESOME, scary yet exciting all at the same time.
    All of the mindless people that make fun of God, the Bible etc. are themselves doing EXACTLY what the Bible says they will do. Just too cool !!!
    Every day is another chapter opening up in full color!
    I LOVE it so much! It's finally happening and I get to see it for myself.
    God is so very AWESOME !!!

  • Rampage

    Emotions are not justifiable proof for god. Anyone can write a story that makes you feel something. That doesn't mean its true, if there's a God does that mean atheists go to hell? Is there a hell? If so how is God awesome if he sends your loved ones to hell just for being skeptical when zero proof is presented for a belief; especially such a large idea. Even a little bit of sensible proof would be a good start, but there is none whatsoever, not to mention there are 10million varieties and branches of religions many literally believing that others who don't hold their same belief will burn in a hell of some kind. How is this Awesome? How is it not that you are the ignorant one.

  • Rampage

    The bible is not even close to 100% accurate you lair.

  • Rampage

    I think the nwo is real.

  • DigiWongaDude

    Wisdom comes with age. Sometimes age comes alone.

  • bringmeredwine

    Yes, wisdom comes with age, but too bad about my short term memory!

  • bringmeredwine

    Good advice.

  • blondemama

    i do too. I don't think it has anything to do with god, satan, fallen angels or aliens though. It simply has to do with greedy men and their love of money. And the willingness to get what they want no matter who they have to stomp on, bomb, kill, torture, or "democratize" to achieve their goal.

  • Rampage

    Right ya exactly.

  • Spof84

    The Old Testament of the Bible at it's very least is a collection of ancient stories from the Israelites. The history contained within is just as "mythical" and often parallels ancient stories from other cultures. The Sumerians, Egyptians, and Indus Valley people all have stories of a great flood, giants, and the supernatural. The Dead Sea scrolls show that nothing from the Old Testament has been changed. That said, I believe any true researcher must consider the testimonies contained within the Bible when researching UFO phenomenon... No matter what their religious or spiritual beliefs are. Is the Bible somewhat of a guidebook to the supernatural? Should we consider the stories in new light outside of how the "church" interprets them?

  • Donnie Johnson

    Religion is for superstitious, simple-minded fools that can't bear the burden of mortality and death. God is a cleverly crafted and well organized hoax. Jesus, the accounts of Jesus' life, and his teachings are over indulged, fabricated, and misunderstood, if not completely misleading fairy tales. The bible was designed by carefully recruited people as an indoctrination tool for the masses that would allow the church power and influence over their very lives. It is certainly true that if there were a supreme being, then it delights in human suffering.

  • Rodrigo Ignacio

    This is the kind of documentaries that destroy social activism.

  • orangemelly

    Most people who knock the bible have never bothered to read it or check out its validity for themselves...

  • Nicole Shoop

    I've read the bible cover to cover twice, it's the most vile and disgusting thing I've ever read. It has no validity, it is nothing more than a bronze/early iron age explanation of the world, and it's creation.

  • orangemelly

    Look deeper....

  • Nicole Shoop

    I hate to even dignify that with a response. What does that mean, I've already cut up three bibles trying to look deeper into them, I'd keep trying but the church up the road started locking it's..... Oh wait that's too clever you didn't mean look deeper in the physical book, you ment the message the book brings. I think my copy is defective all I see in here are stories about beastiality, incest, rape, and torture.

  • em

    From 1:47 till most shocking 1:53:10 the narrator is saying the most blasphemous things about Jesus peace be upon him..To say that Muslims accept Jesus as a begotten sun is FALSE. Proof for this is in the Holy Quraan,and every muslim knows this and is one of the fisrt verses we memorize as children.:“It is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son” (TMQ 19:92), and, “He (Allah) begets not, nor is He begotten” (TMQ 112:3). For e.g that Jesus claimed divinity every day of his life.FALSE!I 1.f you study the bible Jesus called himself "Son of man "88 times in the Bible.2.Further more Jesus was voted a Divinity 325 years after his death (!!!) by Council of Nicaea, the First Ecumenical Council, in 325 CE..3.Jesus being "the begotten son "is to say that God All Mighty came down from the heaven and had sex (!!!).God does not do ungodly acts, he created Adam from dust. If Jesus is the “only begotten Son of God,” who is David? Answer: Psalms 2:7—“The LORD has said to me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten you.” Jesus the “only begotten son of God,” with David “begotten” a scant forty generations earlier?And in any case, the list of candidates for “son of God” begins with Adam, as per Luke 3:38: “Adam, which was the son of God.”Entire nations are referred to as sons, or children of God. Examples include:
    1. Genesis 6:2, “That the sons of God saw the daughters of men . . .”
    2. Genesis 6:4, “There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men . . .”
    3. Deuteronomy 14:1, “Ye are the children of the Lord your God.”4. Job 1:6, “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present..What is this ,Jerry Springer show ,for entertainment?No facts ,only lies about Jesus ,peace be upon him?I suggest everybody hear checks the facts about what here has been said ,and see this documentary as entertainment ,and as truthful as Keeping up with Kardashians

  • em

    The bible has some pieces that are truthful ,however most as distorted. There are more than 250 versions of the bible, not translations, but versions in English alone.Meaning the chapters, verses are not the same.Jesus was voted Divine in 325 CE by Council of Nicea and 50 years later (!!!) in 381 Holy Spirit was added ,and it became a trinity by Council again ,not Jesus pbuh.99,9 % of Christians today do not follow Jesus and his teachings but something that was decited by a vote to gain political power and unite Christians some 300 years after Jesus died.

  • em

    There is some ,l little truth in the bible ,what is left from the original teachings.The most was tampered with .The Holy Quraan is the only book that is in it original state 1400 years later and given to humanity as a last guidance .May I kindly suggest you read it and therein you will find the originals teachings of Jesus ,peace be upon him and a whole chapter called Maryam , dedicated to his mother ,Mother Mary and her life,.

  • em

    Jesus was described in the bible 88 times as "son of God", not even 1 as god.Jesus was voted Divine in 325 CE by Council of Nicea and 50 years later (!!!) in 381 Holy Spirit was added ,and it became a trinity by Council again ,not Jesus pbuh.99,9 % of Christians today do not follow Jesus and his teachings but something that was decited by a vote to gain political power and unite Christians some 300 years after Jesus died.