Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet

Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet

2002, Religion  -   294 Comments
Ratings: 6.64/10 from 89 users.

Muhammad - Legacy of a ProphetFourteen hundred years ago, a humble merchant who could not read or write changed the face of Arabia. Today, his influence has spread to every corner of the world including the United States. This is the story Muslims have passed down from generation to generation for 1400 years. It is a story about the merchant, husband, father, statesman and warrior whom they consider the final prophet…, the main whose legacy continues to shape their lives today.

His father died before he was born, and his mother died when he was only six. But sheltered by a powerful uncle, he made a good start in life, established himself in a profitable business and married well. And then, at the age of 40, he was transformed. A man who could not read or write, he announced that he was the prophet of God. His name was Muhammad, and in the next 23 years he would bring peace to the warring pagan tribes of Arabia and establish the new religion of Islam, which today has 1.2 billion followers.

Three years in the making, Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet travels in the footsteps of the prophet to the Arabian desert and the holy city of Mecca where much of Muhammad's story unfolded. "There are six to seven million Muslims here in America, where Islam is the country's fastest growing religion, but many Americans are completely unfamiliar with the life story of the remarkable man who founded this religion 1400 years ago," says producer/director Michael Schwarz.

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294 Comments / User Reviews

  1. Wow, this convo is still going!

  2. Muhammad was a mass murdering war lord. He gain recognition through rape, murder and deception. The Quran encourage Muslims to lie and hurt the none believers. (All facts) Islam is evil and Mohammed was a pedophile.

    1. This is a misconception. Islam is peace. Muhammad provided a best religion to man kind and rape, murder and deception is not allowed in islam.

    2. Christian fundamentalist speaking

    3. You just described the Talmud

    4. Islam has spread through intimidation, violence, rape and murder. Muhammed was a rapist murdering pedophile. Islam is evil through and through.



    6. being a Christian but most importantly a belief in my creator your comments disturb me because it means I must do a better job at showing we are all the same we all want happiness . So Tyler how can I help you see the Greatness of Muhammad and Muslim faith which is happiness

    7. U r wrong.

    8. Tyler, truer words were never spoken. Muhammad was a child molester and an odious creature.

  3. @Yavanna

    Enjoyed reading your point of view. I had an upbringing like you and Vlatko - thank god (pun intended.)

    To the indoctrinated: Religion is a personal thing and should be kept that way. Stop shoving it in our faces.

  4. How does one massacre people in Muhammad's name? Is there a How to Jihad for Dummies book? Also I lovingly beat my wife almost to death for showing her ankle when she knelt down after I slapped her for serving me food. Stupid woman.

  5. Wow quite a debate going on here. If you need to choose a religion than choose between Buddhism and Jainish. Both are very similar. These are mostly about promoting pacifism, love and compassion. Regardless of how much you try you cannot state that Islam is a religion of Peace go read the Quran in your own language. It teaches intolerance and divided the people of the world between Muslims and Non-Muslims. If you have a logical mind than eventually you will find out the fallacy of the religions of the book. I urge you to educate yourself and compare these religions with an objective perspective.

  6. I am bosnian ''muslim''. In my country we drink, smoke, dance with friends and family. My grandmother is a feminist and my grandfather's idol is nietzsche. Every night girls and boys go in bars, caffee and flirt. Yes we had a war and yes thousands of us were killed by serbian ''christians'' but that has nothing to do with religion and croates christian too were killed by them and by us. We are all blood brothers and sisters. It was a political war because they didnt want bosnia to be independant, it wasnt a religious war.

    1. Exactly :

      It's all about politics and power nowadays .

      All about geo-politics , economics and the balance of power .

      In short : it's all about ...power nowadays ,unfortunately enough .

      Religion has nothing to do with that , even though religion itself can be mis-used as a means to ...power ...

      Real believers can only inspire love,beauty, peace , justice ....and would be willing to even die for those ideals , because God is THE one and only True Beautiful Just LOVE .........worth dying for, if really necessary .

      Real believers would seek power only as a means to an end , not as an end in itself , as a means to an end in order to defend love , truth, beauty , peace , justice ...if necessary .

    2. You are wrong, if you are not knowledgable on a topic do not speak on it. The war that occured in ex-yugoslavia was because of religion. It was because they didn't want muslims there, our people died because they were MUSLIM not because they were Bosnian.

  7. Masha ALLAH, Am very happy to hear that islam is the fastest growing religion in america,May ALLAH cont to spread it to cover the whole world insha ALLAH.

    1. It's the quality of believers that matters , the quality of people in general, not their quantity , as you can see today .

      See the islamic concept of the "perfect man " or Insane al kamil or Ihssane notion : far better and humane than that pathological aristocratic elite exclusive " beyond man " notion of Nietzsche for example .

      Islam seeks to improve people as human beings , to turn them into better people , if they choose to let islam work through and via them at least .

      That's why is the free will so central in islam, brother .


  8. When Muslim terrorists throw bombs at crowds the say " Allah Ali Akbar" is it an act of God. All the world problems are coming from one religion and that is Islam.

    1. Actually all the world's problems come from hatred; and sorry to say but it seems that you're a part of that club.

    2. those people are Fobia-islam like those (wahabiya) ,, not all muslims like those shits so be rational and be a Gnostic before being an ignorant.
      beside the amrican killed a thousands here and around the world does that mean that all christian are killer or terrorists!!?? hell no
      or that president from serbia or now days what's happen in Burma,, etc
      me as muslim love all people because the matter of religion is a matter between ye and Allah, not between me and you..
      i have alots of friends from all religious and from diffident colors and languages and that's what islam all about.

    3. really? friendship with all religions huh... so what does this ayat mean?
      O you who have believed, do not take the disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do you wish to give Allah against yourselves a clear case? Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: ‘Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allaah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever until you believe in Allaah Alone’”

      “You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rooh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself”

      “O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth”

    4. you dnt undastand anything about islam, please go makes reserch about islam.

    5. Seems like you don’t know how to respect a religion in fact you don’t know what freE will means. LOL read some books boy don’t spread hate. People like you are really toxic to this world

      Good day

  9. These are all man made religions. This is the time any god should come down to earth and talk because it has become a murderous wild world. All these have happened because of religions but not for lack of them. It is so easy to say god used a messenger a few thousand years ago because you are able to create many stories which you don't have to prove. Jews robbed Palestinian land and say god gave it to them 2000 years ago.Unfortunately you can't do your research in the land registry. This is all nonsense of stupid and selfish bunch of people. Religions are the biggest problems which exist in today's world. BE A A GOOD CITIZEN THAT'S ALL YOU NEED

    1. dear brother, i think this world is not lasting forever and nor we so there must be a reason behind this world made for us for this short trip we are making here. all of us have to find that reason.

    2. To single out Allah alone for worship and do not set up partnes in that worship... that is all of our purpose

  10. If u took time to understand instead of judging, you would understand the beauty of this religion, it's about the love we have for God and how we show it by treating each other with love. there is an end to this life and unless you don't believe it keep on acting the way you do, we will be held accountable for our words, Peace be upon you and may Allah forgive us for our sins

  11. From Muhammad's first "revelation" from Allah (which filled him with terror that he was demonpossessed) to his deathbed (from which he called down curses upon Jews and Christians)Muhammad's developed from a preacher of hellfire and damnation into a political and military leader who expanded his rule by force of arms, promising his warriors luridly physical delights
    in Paradise if they were killed in his cause.

    The Quran's teaching on warfare against unbelievers developed —with constant war to establish the hegemony of Islamic law as the last stage.

    Muhammad had convenient "revelations" justifying his own licentiousness; his joy in the brutal murders of his enemies; and above all, his clear marching orders to his followers to convert non-Muslims to Islam—or force them to live as inferiors under Islamic rule.

    Muhammad had multiple marriages (including one to a nine-year-old)

    Muhammad set legal standards that make it virtually impossible to prove rape in Islamic countries

    Muhammad's example justifies jihad and terrorism

    Muhammad had faulty- knowledge of Judaism and Christianity which has influenced Islamic theology—and colored Muslim relations with Jews and Christians to this day.

    The Truth about Muhammad.

    1. I think your talking about the crusaders... you know... the "christians" that killed Muslims, Jews, and even Christians. Get your fact's straight.

  12. I Respect others beliefs. There are Muslims, Christian, Jew, Hindus and there are non-Believers of any religion, and among them there are good honest people and very evil mad People. Religions are judge by the discipline of that particular person in that religion. I wish all non-Muslims to be Muslims. You may think its cruel. But if you learn to be a true Muslim You will understand.

    There is Nothing Mentioned in Qur'an about cutting of the clitoris In Islam.

    What i Believe....
    First human Being name is Adam, a Muslim and the First Prophet. And Noah, Abraham(pbuh), Moses(pbuh), David(pbuh), Jesus(pbuh) and Mohamed(pbuh) was the last Prophet of Allah. Like that there are 25 Prophet mentioned in the Qur'an.

    The Greatest Gift given to human is there Brain.It is so Perfect that yet scientist were unable to find all the knowledge about brain. We are given choice to believe what ever we want. In other word the choice to the Correct path or the wrong one. And i am in correct path way. And I believe it.

    As a Muslim I believe, There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of God. And the Last Prophet.

    In My religion, i have to respect other religion and other believes. If a Non-Muslim comes to my house in peace, I will Welcome non less than a Muslim.

    Dear All be a Muslim. Be free of evil thoughts.

    1. @freenimal,

      What I observed up to know regarding Muslim societies is that they ought to have a Mulslim government. "This" is written in their Quran.

      In addition, each Muslim countries ought to have his own religious leader that act in a way as a "Prophet" and thus is the one who possess the understanding of Quran.
      In short, in Islam, there just can't be a separation betwen governing powers, justice and so on. The line of conduct in Islam thus oversee every aspect of human life since it "Totalitary" leads all aspect of life, not to prononce the word "Totalitarian"!
      Why? B-Coze human beings always dreamed of exerting their total authorities upon others.
      This is an historical fact & not beliefs.
      And that is how the "Clitoris" ablation came into some Muslim principles in Africa.
      Some Mullah, reigning over a Muslim African region had this bright idea to get the women ablated following the Islamic concepts he figured out on his own or backed up by some insane religee.
      In facts, there are a few such aberrations in Christianism derived beliefs.
      Ever heard of those who refuse blood tranfusion and prefer death? It exist!

      Up to not so long ago, Muslim nations always lived under the ruling of a "Unique" (In the sense of only one) ruling individual, family or diaspora. This, being a bit risky since that as soon as the "Ruler(S)" get bought by foreingners...

      A social way of life rather hard to conceive for the rest of the world who during that time, had to figure out that "Ultimate Total" country rulers are in the end; Human being like anyone else & will abuse their citizens anyway.
      During which time, they developped what is know as civil democracy where no religee has a "Signed" diploma by any God but rather acquired through competences.
      It takes a while to organise all this even though a society really wants it.
      Bare in mind that meanwhile, it is still human beings at stake here! :-)

      The ought to be pretty extensive.
      Like, there are democratic countries were declating one own financial assets before running for an election isn't enough but there is also a need to keep grants or private subsidees below a certain legally voted amount. Something totally absent in the USA that make it not "We the Peoples" but rather "We the Corporates".

      And you know what? It sure ain't their God or any God that would and will help them to acquire a better world because who ever is their God or your God, his concerns regards other trends.

      All in all, you sure have a longer way to come than most others.
      Therefore: - Good luck.


    2. Thank you for your beliefs. I belive Mohammad was a woman with 2 sexual organs and breasts. Who summond jinns to do her bidding. She would often have wild love making orgies with maried men and women to recharge her spell casting powers Sheallah

    3. damn of Allah ( God)on you , Mr Bovine Canine and Asinine , shame on you to speake about our prophet like that , but you look dirty jewish who lives in a big mess of his life and he couldnt realise what the true and what the right , your horrible comment is showing your weakness and scare towards Muslims who will be in Heaven Incha Alah , but Alhamdolilah we believe of all prophets from Adam to Muhammad peace be upon them and we are proud of that Ms scary

    4. those of you who disgrace and speak ill of Islam and Almighty Allah and His Messengers i can only can say one thing as your brother that fear Almighty **Allah** fear Him! and Indeed He is the Most Merciful of the Merciful! ameen La-Illaha-Illala-Mohamudin RasoolAllah!! ameen

    5. This guy just goes around making comments that literally make no sense, he's a new level of a troll :/

  13. these is the butty of Islam live of Mohamed salla Allah a laihe wa salaam a thank you every one who is in serve a allah and rasole allah
    el mastapha el yaouti Virginia

  14. Absolute ****.. muhammed was a rapist and allowed his "soldiers" to rape foreign women.. not much has changed.

    1. what :/ ??? any proof? it literally say's in the qu'ran not to do any of that stuff... "O people! I charge you with ten rules; learn them well…for your guidance in the battlefield! Do not commit treachery, or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone."

  15. please dont show or indicate Muhammad pbuh in a picture. it is Haram(forbidden)...may Allah show the right path who are sinking in a sea of sin....

    1. blah blah blah. your arrogance is sinking in the sea of ignorance.
      peace, not lies and hatred.
      p.s. i can portray anyone as i please and that is the right of anyone on this planet. get your holier-than-thou attitude out and educated beyond your blindsided ignorance.

  16. This is bullshit. God and Muhammad are no moderates. This is pure propaganda. Islam out of all the Abrahamic religions is by far the most violent.

    1. @Joao,
      Humm... What sort of violence exactly?
      Could it be for instance boilding human beings in vegetable oil?
      As it was done during the inquisition?

      I dunno which religion you belong to Joao, but none, not one has a clean conscience.
      Except maybe the far east ones like Budhist for which no human being never used as a pretexte to slaugther or tortute another human being.

      Religions are lines of conduct on how to abuse others.


    2. So i'm guessing while muslims were busy creating algebra, trigonometry, medieval style mosques (hundreds of years before the europeans), forming pipelines that allowed water to flow to each household, while they made the first irrigation plants, forming the first central bank, going on the first scientific expedition etc... all that time they were killing people? oh no wait that's right the crusaders were the ones killing all the Muslims, Jews and get this the crusaders even slaughtered Christians. Please go back to school, i beg of you.

  17. Wonderful film full of love and respect.
    I learned so much. THANK YOU.

  18. @0zyxcba1 you are out of context please contest against Iran in a documentary about iran.
    I hate those who make ultimate conclusions to claim that they found the truth. Please be humble.

  19. excellent documetry...but islam prohibits to art any picture of men. & in this documentry there are numerous photographs of painted human that need to exclude..for the pleasure of Allah.
    otherwise excelent

    1. blah blah blah. anyone can portray anyone how they please. you may not agree, but it is still the free will that should prevail. not some silly archaic nonsense which has no bearing on a free-thinking society.

    2. you can't portray Muhammad (pbuh), i think you can portray anyone else, if i am wrong could you show me some proof, just curious

  20. maasha ALLAH

  21. Fantastic. Thank you. _/_

  22. mohammed pbuh is the last prophet of God, believe it, dont believe it. Its your choice. But dont judge others that do believe it. And there are as many different kinds of muslims as there are jews, christians, hindu, etc.

    1. You're wrong. I`m the last prophet of God. I spoke to an angel last night in some obscure cave. I`m illiterate, a murdering philandering paedophile bandit but what-hey don't let that dissuade you from the respect I clearly deserve...

  23. How can Mohamad be the "propeht", be a prpohpet when Mohamad is an Ishmaelite and God chose Israel to be his priest. God told Abraham to put Ishmael and his mother a bondmaid away, he told Hager that he would bless Ishmael and that he would give him 12 princes and that his hand would be against his brother and every mans hand against him and the he would be a wild man. When Mohamd was visited by this evil spirit he did not know what it meant or was so he went to an uniformed christian and that christian told him that he must be a prophet and thats how he became a prophet. Nonesense.

  24. the only thing that was correct is that Muslims and Jews, the real ones, the fake ones too, are from the lieniage of Abraham.

    1. How can the 'fake' Jews or Muslims (whatever) be of Abraham's lineage if they are fake? And why are they fake if they come from his lineage? What kind of cr.p is this?

    2. Considering we're all from the original african lineage it's all cr.p hun. These religitards speak no sense, make no sense ..........are nonsense personified.

    3. @ Yavanna,

      You are so right. As if you and me and those alike were living in a different world from these "religitards" (I do like this term of yours, it's absolutely appropriate).

    4. @ AsaIsrael
      "Muslims and Jews, the real ones, the fake ones too, are from the lieniage[sic] of Abraham"

      There are many fountains of blood and religion is one of them.

      religion = blood


    5. it is not the religion itself which causes the blood shed, it is the people.

      as people are, when mistakes are made, some source other than ourselves must be blamed=religion.

      people sometimes misunderstand religions-this is not defined to only one in particular, they do horrible things in the so called 'name' of the religion, when in most cases the religion itself goes against these acts.

      As people we must stop finding excuses for our behavior, look beyond the box, and take responsibility for our own actions.

  25. How can Mohamad be a prophet when God choseIsrael to be his priest? All the prophets, apostles and priest even the Mesiah Jesus Christ were Israelites. Mohamad was an Ishmaelite and had more than one wife God said a prophet should only have one wife. Mind you I am speaking of the Israel of God and not the converted Jew-wish people. God said that he would make Ishameal twelve princes and his hand would be against every man and every mans hand would be against him even his own brother and that he would be a wild man.

  26. In watching this film, I have to question a squeezing spirit, which Mohammed first encountered in the cave. This does not sound like an angel of the Lord that I have read about in scripture. This doesn't sound like the nature of God to me. Angels do not force themselves. God does not force himself, as the commentator Ms Armstrong suggests here.

    1. It was a spirit from God. It was an evil spirit.

    2. how is it an evil spirit, now u explian if i wanted to turn into a jew how can i. wen a jew can only be a jew wen a jew gives birth ti him her

    3. Actually there is one clarification which I think needs to be addressed in this documentary. The angel said to Prophet to read and the Prophet replied that he could not read but never said no. This gives a much different meaning.

      If you ask any questions regarding Islam please ask. Thanks.

    4. @alenajoy

      Muhammad (peace be upon him) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:
      It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

      "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

      When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (peace be upon him) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

      The Quran mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:
      "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

    5. I have heard this one before. Such things only work when a Muslim takes the passage out of its context. Even then, it still really does not work, but if one reads the entire chapter of Isaiah 29, the chances that any AVERAGE typical reasonable NON-religious person would say that this is a prophecy of Mohammed is pretty much ZERO. Not to mention that Jewish Rabbis and Christian ministers would absolutely say no - and they are experts in the field of biblical interpretation. And I guess JEWISH Rabbis would know the meaning of the verse and chapter we are speaking of here for SURE since Isaiah was JEWISH .
      So ok - Let us consider the passage in its context -
      In the particular chapter and verse, GOD - NOT THE ANGEL GABRIEL - is speaking to Isaiah in about the year 730 BC. This is what it says in the FIRST PART -- "For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give this scroll to someone who can read and say to him, "Read this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed." (NOTE THE VERSE TALKS ABOUT A SCROLL which is a CHAPTER - NOT A BOOK AND HE CANNOT READ IT BECAUSE IT IS SEALED - NOT THAT HE CANNOT READ IT BUT HE CANNOT OPEN IT TO READ IT) - now lets look at the SECOND PART -- "Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say "Read this please," he will answer "I do not know how to read."--
      Now, let us be honest. Do you see any indication that God is speaking to Isaiah about Mohammed? Or for that matter about ANY ONE PARTICULAR PERSON - NO - the whole thing is even talking about TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE - one that CAN READ but can't open it to read it and ANOTHER WHO CANT READ IT EVEN IF HE COULD OPEN IT. And even all that information aside about one person who CAN read but CANT open the scroll to read it anyway because its SEALED - and the other who, even if he COULD open it, CANT READ it anyway - the scroll in question here in chapter 29 is talking about a JUDGEMENT ON ISRAEL. There is absolutely zero indication it has anything to do with Mohammed or the Arabs since the chapter is TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL - I think EVERYONE would doubt - if not outright LAUGH - about Mohammad being talked about in a scripture that is TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL AND THE JEWS and on top of it all is being spoken of here BY A JEW! MUSLIMS HATE JEWS!! Not ALL do I guess - but lets be honest here - MOST certainly DO! The point of the passage is that when God gives his teaching to Israel through Isaiah the people of Israel will not want to listen to it. And - by the way - OH UMMAH - even if you WANT to deny it - Isaiah WAS JEWISH - just like Noah and Moses and Abraham and Job and Yahya (Zachariahs) - there were no muslims at the time that they lived on the earth - Islam did NOT EVEN EXIST until almost 700 years AFTER ISA JESUS - and that puts Abraham WELL over 5,000 years BEFORE Islam too - and - Father Ibrahim (Abraham) WROTE the first books of the Jewish Scriptures and the Old Testament Bible. You would THINK because he is CLAIMED to be the patriarchal founder of Islam that EVERY muslim would WANT to read the books he and Noah and Moses wrote - but your Imams know you just MIGHT discover something and most (if not ALL of them) do NOT want you to read it (or at the very LEAST GREATLY DISCOURAGE YOU to read it) and SOME forbid people to even have a bible in their possession. Regardless - in most islamic countries you could get in BIG TROUBLE for owning one if you are a Muslim. But Abraham and the rest WERE JEWISH - so you might not want to read his writings just because of your hatred of Jews and all things Judaic. The Ummah as a whole REALLY needs to do its research on the whole subject - but when you are forbidden to read and study things out of the FIRST ORIGINAL WRITINGS of the prophets that are still found in the Bible it kind'a makes it hard to compare notes; and who wants to be murdered for converting or even ACKNOWLEDGING that the bible is the FIRST BOOK - even before Islam - and why would God get it - OR ANYTHING - wrong the first time and have to make it right a SECOND TIME- AND - make it right by writing a whole different book - and isn't it strange that ALL the prophets are IN the bible from the begining and only Muhammad isn't there among them? Doesn't ANYONE in the Ummah think thats kind'a strange? I guess the Ummah think God had to write a second book to get it right so he picked Muhammad and changed a bunch of stuff from the ORIGINAL BOOK - just like the Mormons think God had to write a second book and change some stuff in it too so He got Joseph Smith to write the Book of Mormon. WHO by the way ALSO believed you could have sex with a bunch of "wives" and still be holy and acceptable in the sight of a HOLY GOD - like alot of other "cult leaders" even in todays world THAT STILL preach this and say it is OK with God if you do that. Funny how ALL these "man made religions" have that belief in common - that its OK to have "sex with lots of women wives " The Shites have even taken it so far as to make it ok to have sex with PROSTITUTES - because an Imam can make you married to them so they are "temporary wives"!! Not kidding people - google it! And while your googling around look up "infant thighing". Funny how the ONLY ONE that says all this warped sex IS NOT ok and acceptable to a HOLY GOD is the religion of Isa Jesus... Isa told the adulterous woman to "go and sin no more" and he told the rabbis and men that were there to stone her - "Let the man who is among you that has never commited ANY SIN be the first man to cast the first stone..." well they couldn't be hypocrites about it when they looked at their own heart and their own sins they had done in their lives so they dropped their stones and left. Funny how so many Imams today will tell their men to stone a woman and those men will be sinful hypocrites themselves and STILL DO the evil deed! The teachings of Isa is ONE WIFE and ONE HUSBAND. He did NOT say to have MANY women or "wives" - and - regardless all that - if GOD IS HOLY then WHY would ANY MAN or even any WOMAN believe a holy GOD would think sex with a bunch of different women would be ok?? WHY are man made "religions" ALL hung up on SEX and how is SEX some sort of heavenly reward?? The reward God grants the righteous is eternal life in HIS PRESENCE - and I dont think He would appreciate a bunch of men running around chasing women lustfully and having sex with them in His presence or in His heavenly kingdom - if He DID then wouldn't it be ok to do such things in the mosque or any other HOLY place here on earth if it is not WRONG to do in His holy presence in heaven?? OF COURSE NOT!! The whole preoccupation with SEX and a bunch of VIRGINS to have SEX WITH IN HEAVN IS RIDICULOUS! Be HONEST with yourself and THINK about it!! GOD is NOT about SEX with a BUNCH OF WOMEN!! THAT is DEFINATELY something wanted in the mind of a man - but you better believe GOD doesn't think about that and that sort of thing has NO PLACE in HIS HOLY PRESENCE - in HEAVEN - and its just as wrong to have sex with a bunch of women or a bunch of "wives" - or a bunch of "temporary wives" here on earth too if you wish to be correct in His eyes - as I said if it were NOT wrong then why would it not be ok to do such things in His holy places here on earth too? Because it IS wrong!!
      But I do feel so sorry for muslim ppl because they SO BADLY want to find SOME sort of evidence proving their holy man is true and right - although how anyone can think a man is "holy" if he steals from his neighbors tribe - has sex with lots of women - takes people into bondage and slavery and tells his followers in that day to do the same and that its ok to have sex with those women "WHOM YOUR RIGHT HAND POSSESSES" and take advantage of them - murders people - cuts the necessary and NEEDED reproductive tissue off women - says its ok to BEAT WOMEN which EVERYONE knows is WRONG because a woman is not as strong as a man and only a BULLY would beat up on a woman - a REAL MAN will stand up for whats RIGHT and if he sees a man beating on a woman he will BEAT UP THAT MAN - and on top of all of it - has SEX with a NINE YEAR OLD CHILD - I will never know how anyone can think those are the examples and conduct of a "holy" man... it makes me sad to think of it - and although I truly believe Muhammad (PBUH) TRIED to be a good man in the times he lived in - it just makes me sad to think that - according to some records in the Qu'ran - and according to hadiths and sunnas - he did those awful things...
      well...I guess you can at LEAST say that muslims are people that have the MOST FAITH OF ALL because they actually BELIEVE that his behaviour is what a HOLY PERSON would do... but in the end thats all just very sad... forgive me here if I have offended you in any way - I just HATE that men that claim to be HOLY do these things in the name of GOD and Islam - and try to deceive the Ummah by telling them that the old prophets and even Abraham and ISA JESUS were NOT Jewish - and I do try to remember Muhammad (PBUH) lived in a time when things were very different and I do believe he did the best he could...

    6. if Noah was Jewish then if being Jewish is a Race, Arent we all Jewish. Unless being Jewish is only your faith

    7. You're correct alena - angels in NO examples ANYWHERE ever did such a thing - they always identified themselves and told the person to not be afraid - AND - i find it very much a HORROR that he was "squeezed" and it was very painful and he thought it would kill him - bc in the New Testament the ONLY demonic spirit to actually be CALLED BY NAME was the SPIRIT OF PYTHON ----- a python will SQUEEZE its victim - do u think that spirit was called that by accident?? NO WAY - nothing is ever laid out "by accident" in the scriptures - EVERYTHING is there if we will only look and seek to decipher it - so... - how freakish is THAT?? sorry to say but i think Mo had it right in the begining - he was terrified and thought he had seen an evil spirit or a "jinn" - interesting sermon on it at youtube just look for jentzen franklin spirit of python sermon.

  27. Well. well... Another one who had a weird extra-sensorial trip figuring out his own view regarding the presence of the homosapien specie on planet earth as to why were we abandonned, here on our own!
    Observing the world as it is, back to some 3,000 years, maybe we shall admit that we may well have deserved to be abandon?

    I feel I am a litle of the same, not remembering anything at the time I was born. Thank God, my mum didn't run away!
    She told me of how it went when I came to life, otherwise...

    Not one but all religions have obviously been manipulated by weirdoe's and obsessed for their own end-use or profit.
    So many passed by within the recent 3,000 years!
    Even the books that date back to these times should not be trusted.

    At most as "0zyxcba1" said: -Not bad poems, both in the Bible and the Koran to inspire the beasts as they're close to frenzy.
    But for the real thing, the real explanations, no one even has a bit of an answer among so many other questions.
    It just ought to be a secret only a few, a very few have access to when they isolate themselves on a montain for instance.
    No more of these guys in now days?
    Why? Reserved to anciant time maybe?
    I'm for decency and good will inspiration found in all religion as long as it ain't segregationist. Segregation is the prime filth of the homosapien specie.

    Whenever I see segregationisme, it disguss me and I run away.
    I'd even abandon my stupied child if he'd or she'd be stucked by that pleague.

    That is the answer.
    So, sit on it and have a good life.

  28. how can a get a copy of this movie

  29. simply good film, sun reason for the sun.

  30. Muhammad is the prophet of the end times. Read the Al-Qur'an, all have answers about any problems there.

    1. @ Endhin,

      I have read the Koran(in English), cover-to-cover.

      Sorry, it had no answers to any problems, whatsoever, nor any inspiration about any problems. I cannot imagine what you might be talking about. Most boring nonsense I've ever come across.

      Even the Bible, bad as it is, has at least some really good stories.

      Koran gets a D-minus(would get a flat-out F were it not for a couple of not-to-bad poems).

    2. if you are looking for some interesting stories then I am really sorry you are a wrong wrong books. Either it is Bible or Quran. The main purpose of these books is to guide human beings and to prepaer them for the end of world. How to live a good life? These are not story books. If you need guidance then please read from that perspective and surely you will find the solutions to your problems. And please, I request you to give respect to these books. You are hurting the emotions of billions of people. And I am sure you will have this much common sense that one should not hurt others either physically or emotionally or in anyother way. No one cares about your grades. If you really need the soultions to worldy problems, then read for understanding not for criticism or to find stories.

    3. The reason why you don't find the Quarn and the bible stories not inspirational is because you don't want to sit down and look at things throughly not just that you don't want to understand the underlying meaning behind the stories. You only see things on the surface, and there are detailed understanding behind each story i have read it from the saih ul buhari it gives me a detailed understanding behind each story that is mentioned in the holy Quarn

  31. All religion is imperfect as people are imperfect.
    Tell me then, u great scholars; where will god be when all life on earth is long dead due to our slowly dying (changing) sun? When there is not a single consciousness left to construct a concept of a god. I mean a lovely ending for all from a "loving" god. Not that I'll be here to worry about it.

    1. sorry i didnt get any word you said !!! would you say it in different way please. are you believer or not, it dose not show really.

  32. @Sux,
    Ah, 666 lol. As it is written in the bible, the number of the beast 666 (or number 616) or the mark of the beast which will be used to buy and sell goods, without it people will not be able to do so. Ah, read the Bible with context, don't be like those who quote blindly from Quran without the context and lie. Islam has it's roots in peace, it has developed through peace. One more thing, I will give you something to think of, according to the Quran, the beast will be one eyed. Now, combine the Bible's info and Quran's about antichrist, which country's money will have the one-eye mark in their currency? Love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, I'm an atheist but I want people to be theist because religion preaches discipline, moral values. If you talk about hate, hate will grow, if you talk about peace and harmony, peace and harmony will grow. Cheers, have a nice day.

    1. Many atheists such as yourself are often times very well versed in Holy Bible knowledge and religion. Why if you don't believe would you even read the Bible? Or did you read it first and then become an atheist. I am a Christian and I am not judging you or putting you down, I am simply doing research for class and personal reasons?

    2. @ Starrcrenshaw,

      Naturally, I speak only for myself.

      I was raised in an intense religious environment that I grew into from infanthood through up to, and into, the onset of manhood. So, the Bible(I was xtian) was unavoidable. Later, as an adult, I read the whole Bible(KJV), both Old and New Testaments, cover-to-cover. I did the same with the Koran.

      Several billions of people on this planet relate culturally, or otherwise, to the Abrahamic faiths. Even a visiting Martian would want to read what so many people thought important, even if only to learn more about his next meal (lol)!

      I do know a lot more about the Bible than about the Koran, but then that's hardly surprising, given my background.

      I was going to go into how xtians who think they're well versed in the study of the Bible have no idea that they've never even seen it. But that would take eons(besides you can get some of it from the documentary 'Why I Am No Longer a Christian', found under Recommended Documentaries).

      Suffice it to say that, though I was brought up in the faith, the Bible was presented to me in fragments, or discovered, likewise, in fragments. I wanted to see the whole thing, as a whole.

      What have I come away with?

      Some really good stories embedded into some of the most boring claptrap imaginable, exceeded only by the dreary monotone of the Koran.

      I find it amusing when xtians start 'teaching' me in order to 'save me'. They haven't a clue even that they haven't a clue. Poor things. They're poring over scrambled eggs and don't even know it. They'd have more luck finding Jesus in taco! (lol)

      I could go on, and on. But why?

      I have made some effort to offer you an honest answer to your question.

      Quid pro quo!

      Why do you ask?
      And forget the "I am simply doing research for class..."
      I don't believe it, anyhow.

      Get to the nitty-gritty: "...and personal reasons."
      Yeah, that's right, go straight for the personal !!

      And don't lie! Or I'll know.
      (line from 'Silence of the Lambs' (lol).

  33. @john:

    So, Muhammad is the most peaceful man on earth was he?

    Check out..."the end of god; a horizon guide to science and religion" here on TDF

    Read blog #529 attributed to @jolulipa:

    You may reply to the commentors, not to me, am not in the discussions.

  34. Dear friends in humanity , from all creeds and faiths . I do love you all . We are human and we should tolerate each other. Besides , we should tell facts and not lies . If some body has bad feelings in his heart , he should be reasonable and think twice before he writes his statement . If you people read the scriptures wisely and with open heart , you will definitely realize that , many of you are wrong . The scripture of each religion tells the correct answer. There are many misconceptions have been written about Islam and all of them are wrong . Human behavior is different from the actual scriptures of any religion .For example , Christians have killed tens of thousands of Muslims in Bosnia in 1994 , This does not mean that Christians are bad . Christians in Russia killed thousands of Chechens in Chechnya . Christians killed millions in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam . Till this moment they are still killing . Why they are killing ? What do they want ? Are they killing by Christ order ? What type of religion is this , which is allowing people to massacre day and knight . Killing is carried out daily and it is being practiced till this moment .
    Muhammad is the most peaceful man on earth . His motto is peace . The greeting of Muslims to each and every human being is PEACE . The only documented holy scripture on earth is Quran . It is the last testament . It is the guidance for all humanity . Muslims love Christ , Moses and Mary and they respect them profoundly . The Quran says : if any one kills a human being , he is like killing the whole humanity . Killing is not allowed in Islam at all except for defending the self .

    1. *****Muslims love Christ , Moses and Mary and they respect them profoundly *****

      No they do not - if they DID then they would not be murdering Christ's followers EVERYWHERE in the world - google Christian murders martyrs persecutions iran iraq egypt pakistan afghanistan nigeria uganda eritrea mauritus malaysia phillipines libya rwanda darfur - and the list goes on and on AND ON - then u try looking up the same except put in the place of the word christian - put JEW -

      if muslims respected Isa Jesus they would NOT murder or HATE JEWS EITHER - because MARY MOSES NOAH JOB YAHYA AND EVEN FATHER IBRAHIM (abraham) ---- AND EVEN ISA JESUS ---- WERE JEWISH!! Islam did not even EXIST until about 700 years AFTER ISA JESUS!! so then what were all these people before ISLAM?? THEY WERE JEWISH - if they weren't then the jews are sure stupid for keeping the faith of father abraham these last SEVEN THOUSAND YEARS!! if ISA JESUS hadnt come along then they whole world would pretty much just be buddists hindus atheists muslims and jews - MOSTLY MUSLIMS AND JEWS -

      and the christians killed bosnians?? well the world FORGETS that it was the UNITED STATES (the "GREAT SATAN" Christian country) that stepped in and FORCED the UN to go in and STOP the MUSLIMS FROM BEING KILLED BY THE BOSNIAN SERBS -

      AND - you are overlooking ONE BIG POINT - the war going on now was NOT STARTED by the United States - it was started by a bunch of lunatics thinking they were doing the work of GOD by flying planes into towers and murdering ppl in the name of GOD - the countries that harboured these lunatics and their leaders would NOT turn them OVER for trial for the murders so the US decided to go in and GET THEM -

      I dont nescessarily agree with the situation but hey - they started it and they got more than they bargained for -

      and you are SO MISSING THE POINT - the "christians" are not over there killing people - A GOVERNMENT IS OVER THERE AT WAR - the troops are FULL of different religions and NONE OF THEM MURDER PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF GOD -

      BUT - the idiots that started all this - and want to CONTINUE THE VIOLENCE - DO MURDER IN THE NAME OF GOD!!

      THAT is the difference! Civilized nations or people will NEVER MURDER in the name of GOD - and the whole "crusade" angle - well that doesnt work - bc ppl were not that civilized back then and THE WORLD KNOWS BETTER NOW!! or at least MOST of the world does! except the ISLAMOFACISTS like the leaders of IRAN - the IRANIAN PEOPLE are WONDERFUL PPL!! I have persian friends for YEARS - but even THEY will tell you that their leaders are WHACKED!! REAL FREAKS! that is one reason the WORLD and even the NEIGHBORS of iran DO NOT want it to have nuclear weapons - BECAUSE THEY ARE LUNATICS and ReLIGIOUS FANATICS THAT ARE RUNNING THE GOVERNMENT AND WANT TO MURDER PPL IN THE NAME OF GOD!!

      CALL THE CHRISTIANS WHAT U WANT BUT THEY WILL NEVER MURDER U IN THE NAME OF GOD!! Call the US what you will but you will NEVER find them being a government of religious lunatics that will throw nuclear BOMBS AT YOU in the NAME OF GOD!! yes they did bomb JAPAN in WWII - but it was to STOP THE WORLD WAR - not to MURDER PPL IN THE NAME OF GOD!! and they regretted it bc they have a SOUL and an CONCIOUS!! they spent BILLIONS & BILLIONS in the clean up and recovery efforts - and even the scientists that made the bombs REGRETTED IT - and the US as a people and a nation swore to work to STOP the spread of nuclear bombs bc they hurt ALL HUMANITY IN ALL THE WORLD - if not directly then by the fallout -

      BUT IT IS A SURE THING THAT IRAN DOESN'T THINK LIKE THAT FOR ALL HUMANITY - BC THEY ARE LUNATICS!!! AND SO ARE ISLAMOFACIST "NAZIS" THAT MURDER OTHER PEOPLE IN THE HOLY NAME OF GOD!! and u know the wise men say that those that do not remember history are DOOMED to repeat it - and i cant help but think that these ISLAMOFACISTS are going to bring us back to the crusades bc the REASON THEY STARTED IN THE FIRST PLACE WAS BECAUSE THE MUSLIMS IN THE HOLY LANDS WERE CONSTANTLY MURDERING CHRISTIAN PILGRIMS!! so the pope called up the Knights Templar and told them to KILL the muslims because the christians were SICK of them murdering christian people!! if the "moderate" NORMAL muslims dont get a grip on these WARPED IDIOTS that MURDER IN THE NAME OF ALLAH TODAY - then we may be DOOMED TO REPEAT THAT HISTORY!! because OBVIOUSLY - the Islamic world has forgotten that was why the crusades STARTED in the FIRST PLACE!!

    2. @amnestyrider,

      (Quote): "Call the US what you will but you will NEVER find them being run by religious lunatics that will throw nuclear BOMBS AT YOU!!"

      Amnestyrider, did you mean like when Nixon told Kissinger that he prefered to nuke Vietnam?
      If you remember, it's on tape and was dessiminated all over the world through a few documentaries.

      I'm no muslim, nor jewish or that sort of christian you mentioned but I seen quite a few documentaries that shows "Christian Derived" faiths assemblies in the "Remote" USA and it sure makes me shiver. You know, the business of miracles?

      Ther least I that should be mentioned is that once one has seen "Israel Next War" (From PBS but not free anymore, maybe tracable on YouTube, the reall dangerous peoples are the one who barks as you do.

      Many of your comments are biaised ad the one on czechoslovakia ex-provinces as well.


  35. Dear friends in humanity , from all creeds and faiths . I do love you all . We are human and we should tolerate each other. Besides , we should tell facts and not lies . If some body has something in his heart , he should be reasonable an think twice before he write his statement . If you people read the scriptures wisely and with open heart , you will realize that , many of you are wrong . The scripture of each religion tells the correct answer . There are many misconceptions have been written about Islam and all of them are wrong . Human behavior is different from the actual scriptures of any religion .For example , Christians have killed tens of thousands of Muslims in Bosnia in 1994 , does not mean that Christians are bad . Christians in Russia killed thousands of Chechens in Chechnya . Christians killed millions in Iraq and Afghanistan and Vietnam . Till this moment they are killing . Why they are killing ? What do they want ? Are they killing by Christ order ? What type of religion is this , which is allowing to kill people day and knight . Killing is being practiced till this moment .
    Muhammad is the most peaceful man on earth . His motto is peace . The greeting of Muslims to each and every human being is PEACE . The only documented holy scripture on earth is Quran . It is the last testament . It is the guidance for all humanity . Muslims love Christ , Moses and Mary and they respect them profoundly .

  36. Guys:

    Did you ever think it is coincidence this guy mohammed was born close to year 666 A.D?


    1. Whether you agree or not with Islam, this has to be the lamest rationale for doubt. "Close to year 666 A.D." The number of the Beast is 616 or 666, not "close to 666".

  37. @ray,
    I'll tell you how. By blindly being steered in the direction they are told like mindless sheep.

  38. do not see how you dumb @sses can believe a murderer was a profet. i know what you dumb @sses belive about the hoopoe bird.poor sick @ss holes

  39. "Live Simply That Others May Simply Live" - Mahatma Gandhi

  40. Hi,
    Nice discussions.
    I loved the documentary.

  41. @ steve

    There have been many atrocities committed under the guise of religious enlightenment. Those who committed these atrocities were encouraged by a leadership who advocated hatred towards those with different ideals.
    You may not be religious but you embrace hatred as if you are. Your brand of scientific enlightenment is another form of religion and may well be just as dangerous. Remember the atheists of the Soviet Union. Stalin was just as dangerous as any religious zealot. Hatred and violence should be discouraged whether atheist or theist. Keeping score only legitimizes your own intolerance.

  42. @Mo,
    Yeah, you are right. But about the end of the world, no one knows exactly what will happen. cheers.

  43. hahaha.. Osamabinladenismyhero guy is hilarious.. Are you for real dude??.. I have a feeling it's some jack ass just wanting to stirr up more ridiculous conversation.

    So many things wrong with all of the commentary on this page, that I wouldn't know where to start.. So I won't :)

    Just be good people, it doesn't matter what your religion is, you'll all be dead before this century is over. In the end, who really cares or who really knows anything? Respect and love for humanity is more important than any religion. The funny thing is that the view of love and compassion is supported by religions. I don't think it has anything to do with religious affiliations, it has to do with level of intelligence.

  44. @Osama Bin Laden is my hero,
    If Allah is watching all of this, I'm confident that he will punish you. You know whoever you maybe, if you're a muslim you got a duty to do, which is to safeguard islam. But you're not doing it. You know that Islam is being under attacks from claims that it propogates violence, crimes, brutality. But it is not true, you get angry and react in a way that you make their claims to be true. At first you are not a muslim. Surprise, it doesn't matter man, even if you worship 5 times a day, it doesn't matter. The thing that matters is you're not safeguarding islam which is the duty of muslims. Instead you are killing it by earning ill-will of non-muslims towards islam. If you want to safeguard Islam, stop acting like this and behave like a human, behave like a human being. I bet you can't even understand this, if you do I'll be very happy.

  45. @Steve,
    No wonder Steve you are so angry with religious fanatics, see the last comment by the "Osama Bin Laden is my hero". This guy doesn't know the real tolerance and peace of Islam. Ah, but Steve, if you say that science can solve these social problems, I would be happy if it does, but how can a person be persuaded to be just even when he/she not being watched. Don't you see people will be criminal by opportunity. A very few handful of people, hmmm I think they will be good humans. What is your idea to replace the psychological "police" called God? I'm waiting for your reply.

  46. @Steve,
    Man you are right about theory of evolution and religion. I've heard religious fanatics of Christianity, Jewish, Hindus, Muslims all say the same as Muslims. But I am clear now that you are frustrated about the religious fanatics but not the real religion. I repeat "I am an atheist" but I will not keep quiet when people just get opinionated because of their easy and lazy incomplete analysis and ascertain something which is not a complete truth. Steve there is a difference between truth and half-truth. According to you, your standpoint is correct but you might have half-truths which you think is the complete truth. I appreciate your courage to speak up against these fanatics but you can't slam each and every Christian or Muslim or Jew with the claim of yours. Just a few questions to you this time Steve, Do you think that even a newly born Muslim baby should be penalized for the atrocities of these fanatics? Do you think that the entire population of the earth is ready to throw out religious belief, which has been the tool for keeping the moral values? Do you believe without a entity like mysterious God to be afraid of people would behave properly, without theft, murder, rape? Can you guarantee or prove that in this world without the phenomenon called God people would live peacefully, not doing crimes when not under the eyes of law?

  47. @Sulaiman,
    Hi, I'm fine no thanks to God. I have read the entire Koran before coming to my conclusions. Though this verse doesn't seem evil at first but it has a very misleading nature, like a lot of other Koranic passages. Who is to tell a 16 year old fresh from a Islamic militant camp who does he have to fight? He is brainwashed into believing the killing of innocent souls is allowed in jihad. Osama bin laden himself said in an interview that it is allowed in Islam to kill anyone, while in the Koran the killing of the old, weak, children and women is strictly forbidden. You're right about one thing though, Man does not need religion anymore. The world would be a much more peaceful place without the racism of religion. People ask me: "Hey, are a Moslem? Are you Sunni or Shi'tte?"
    What happened to Salman just proved that there is no free will in Islam now a days. When Islam first started, I have come to the conclusion that there were no sects and Moslems wouldn't behead you for rejecting their ideology. Nowadays, say one word against Islam and you won't live to see the next day. I've heard Moslems say that Christians shouldn't be allowed to even live in Pakistan. Why so much hate from a religion which preaches so much peace?
    Moslems don't believe evolution happened, instead believing in the childish fairytale of Adam and Eve.
    Have a nice day, "friend".

  48. @Steve,
    Hi, How are you Steve? I hope all is well with you. All I'm trying to do is to stop victimization of innocent people no matter from which ethnicity they are. You have quoted from Koran 2:191, but unfortunately you have missed the line just before what you have quoted. I hope that you have not purposefully did it. When we read something we should read with context. When you read the man killed the man, it will seem very obvious that the killer is person who is a unjust person, but if it comes like this "The man was about to be shot, to defend himself the man killed the man". You see I will give you your own example but this time with context you can check the authenticity of it. "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there". Ah Steve, you see if somebody wants to fight you and slaughter you Koran says to fight them. Let go off the gut feeling that whatever Koran says will be lie and Muslims are villains. Because this is not good, today it is Islam that bothers, tomorrow it maybe something else like Judaism or Christianity. So, we should have a clear and complete picture first. This is the thing they do in Judiciary systems you know, they investigate, they cross examine and come to a conclusion. Religion is not the problem, I think religion is not necessary for man nowadays after so much development, the problem is that people doesn't have the patience to analyze completely the root cause of problems. What happened in Pakistan, is pure politics, you know, in India in the 80s Prime Minister was murdered in the same way as Salman. There it was a different religion. I can even quote examples from many parts of the world, you know. I think this is a healthy discussion, I think we will get a solution for terrorism, wars, famine and many other social problems. I'll be waiting for your reply Steve. Have a wonderful day my friend.

    Only compulsory for Moslems like you.

  50. Pls add the letters PBUH ( Peace be upon him ) to Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) name as this is compulsory.

  51. @habib,
    Wikipedia is much more reliable than the propagandist Moslem or anti-Moslem websites.

  52. @Sulaiman,
    There is a small Islamic country next to India named Pakistan. I'm sure you've heard of it. For some time now a Christian woman named Asia Bibi or something like that had been sentenced to death indefinitely on charges of "blasphemy". That is, she tried to use her free will to accept of reject the Islamic teachings. The Governor of Pakistan, Salman Taseer tried to stand up for the innocent women by declaring this death sentence as a black law. You want to know what happened to him? One of his own guards, coincidentally a bearded Moslem, shelled him with what, thirty something gun shots.
    I'm sorry Sulaiman, I cannot think for one second to ever learn to tolerate people like these who cannot tolerate anyone themselves. How can you possibly justify this atrocity? I did some research, and I did not find one instance (yet) in which Mohammed murdered someone for, oh, I don't know, not being a Moslem.
    Islam is the only religion that allows it's followers to kill people.
    [2:191] The Koran: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers."
    If the Koran is really the unaltered word of God as the Moslems claim, I do not want to worship a God who promotes murder.
    And please, try to disprove the facts I have told you.
    Have a nice day.

  53. @Steve,
    Man, now you seem to talk a little neutral now. Ah, I'm happy with it. You see Steve, I at one point in my life I felt the same about Hindus as the same way as you felt about Muslims. Later, in my life I came across good Hindu friends, even friendlier and nicer than my Muslim friends. You think that Muslims will kill you. No Steve, a criminal kills people. No matter which religion they are. Every religion has its own rules, no religion has allowed their followers to be killers and shows impunity to them. When I read your comment you reminded me of my teenage and my early twenties, that's why I replied. And one more thing Steve, the Islamic terrorists mostly doing all these atrocities to make people hate Muslims, they purposefully do it so that all others starts hating Muslims. Now, there is a huge difference between Muslims and Islamic terrorists, a terrorists cannot claim that they are Muslims because the Quran doesn't acknowledge unjust murderers like them as Muslims. If people starts to hate Muslims, this will gradually turn into violence on Muslims and non-Muslim sides and it will strengthen their propaganda of gaining support among Muslims by claiming that they are fighting for Muslims and gain power, this is their master-plan. All I want to say to you is don't fall for it, this can happen in any community. We should all be able to see through the clouds what the real goals of terrorists are. Cheers man. I will wait for your reply. Have a good, nice and wonderful day. :)

  54. @Steve
    I was born into a muslim family as well. I was initially a muslim, became an athiest for about 2-3 years and then became a muslim once again.
    and you gotta be kidding if you quote from wikipedia.

  55. You're an atheist? Really? It's hard to tell that from the way you're defending Moslems. You cannot change my ideology. Not after everything I've been through. You have no wordly idea what these Moslems are capable of. I wake up every single day of my life with the threat of some Moslem fanatic breaking into my house and trying to murder me. I can never, EVER, learn to forgive these....these...sorry excuses for human beings after everything I've seen them do to innocent children and, the worst of all..their OWN children. If you support "just" people, then you should not be supporting the infidels known as Moslems. Try teaching humanity to 16 year old Moslems ready to blow themselves up with false promises of heavenly "noors". Just try to disprove the facts I have mentioned. Yes, there are rapes in non-Moslem countries like the US and UK too, but then why should there be rapes in Moslem countries who claim to be a sinless race? Have a nice day man. As long as some Moslem doesn't behead you also. I will try to read your reply if these monsters let me live long enough.

  56. @Steve,
    Steve I see how much you hate moslems. I will not blame you it's because of the media, you said people throwing acid at the face of women, do you know how many cases like this are occurring all around the world, in US, UK, India, China, you can easily good and find it out my friend. Zooming in on one particular religion and "selectively" quoting is unwise. I want to help you in understand the reality, I don't want to upset you. You see my friend, I still say I can prove that your perception is wrong as I said earlier. But you seem to get so aggressive in your words. If you are really ready for it, I will do so but apparently you're not, read your own comment, why are so angry? My friend, when you say rape, has it been happening on only muslim countries, or more on muslim countries? do the research my friend you will see the truth. Yes, it consumes some time, but it will be worth it for you. I wont disagree blindly, reply to me after you done some research. People are people no matter what religion they are. Talking about hate again and again spreads hate, talking about peace and compassion spreads peace and compassion among people we should understand this. So, your point about rape, murder, acid attacks, I agree this happens but relatively it is not as much you say, it is apparent that there are some countries where it happens too. I don't want to comment like you with F words, you know, I'm not as impatient and angry as you are. May it's your frustration, cool down a little bit. Have a nice day. By the way, I'm an atheist too. I can't stand if somebody is arrogant towards some people due to their ignorance. I'm not saying that I know better than you, but we should let go our ego and discuss openly. Have a nice day. This is the way we should treat people with some humanity. "enna seitharai oruthal avarna nanayam seituvidal" - by Thiruvaluvar a Tamil poet of India wrote before the time of jesus christ. It means if somebody does harm to you, do some good for them in return so that they'd learn not to hurt people due to the shame that felt upon them. I will come back for your reply. I have no ill-feel about you, I'm happy that you brought this up so I have an opportunity to help you understand better. Remember I'm not a religious person, I'm an atheist, trust me, I don't support anybody, I support people who are just. :)

  57. ayesha was married to Mohammed when she was between 19 - 24, not 9

  58. @Steve,
    Those days 600 AD, do some research and find out on average by which age Christians, Jews and Arabs got married, you will be in for shock. If you blame Mohammed then you should also blame Christians and Jews of that time too. We are in a much civilized world now. Steve, I can't figure out why you are hating Muslims so much. Think Steve, think. Love thy neighbor and love thy enemy. If you hate Muslims, then I suppose you aren't following the Jesus Christ. This is what Jesus tried to straighten out. Steve don't be blind, open your eyes see around you. People get opinionated towards their own religion, no matter who. I bet if you were born in a Islamic family you will be supporting Islam. I can disprove each and every claim of yours found above if you want. Open your heart, open your eyes, open your mind, try to love people. God, nobody said it's god of one race or tribe. It's the path differs.

  59. Pure Islamic propaganda. How convenient that the hypocrites who made this doc never bothered to mention the fact that Mohammed married Aisha and had sex with her when she was just 9. Mohammed (if he ever existed, that is,) was neither holy nor was he in no way a prophet. He was the perfect blue print for a 21st century Moslem terrorist. He suffered from the deadly sins of lust, gluttony and wrath. He was a schizophrenic and a hypocritical tapeworm. You Moslems should be ashamed of calling a murderer and a rapist like Mohammed your role model.

  60. Pure Islamic propaganda. Mohammed (if he ever existed, that is,) was neither holy nor was he in no way a prophet. He was the perfect blue print for a 21st century Moslem terrorist. He suffered from the deadly sins of lust, gluttony and wrath. He was a schizophrenic and a hypocritical tapeworm. You Moslems should be ashamed of calling a murderer and a rapist like Mohammed your role model.

  61. Furthermore "Differences of opinion is a mercy upon mankind" many well educated minds were on this doc i researched each of them and not all were Muslim thus if they could respect the prophet and Islam as well as each others faiths why cant others? I also bet they have more knowledge on the faiths than we do. I mean they do make a living on it and teach at various universities. just a thought. And people really need to stop copying and pasting what they find on the internet because chances are that is also someones opinion and not yours. best thing to do is read people read.

  62. From what i can see in these comments is that their is absolutely no respect for one another,i guess what we should really focus on is living together while respecting each others faiths only then can we truly except one another. I mean im all up for a healthy debate but when the slandering and attacking of each others faiths begins its really all down hill from there. Honestly i read these comments and see so much hatred for each other we really need to start looking at our selves first.

    "Only from the heart can you touch the sky" Rumi

  63. Islamophobia, is what I can see in all of these comments. People rarely see mistakes from their side, they rarely accept them. I am an atheist, but born in a Muslim family. I have read some Quran, Bible and even listened to lot of Hindu lectures in an attempt to contemplate why all these people are believing in a existence of a supreme God. The more I spent my time, one thing became clear, people stick to the dogmas and doctrines of their own religion and refuse to cross study others. In some cases they do but not with a open mind and ready to accept if something is incorrect in their own faith. During the time of the Mohammed (PBUH) all around the world the age when people got married and the age difference between spouses were too much to be digested these days. But it's true if you check it out, I think you may find the truth. Regarding violence Yavanna, he had no other go to save people's lives. He had to stop the raiding murderers and he had to stop them from regrouping so he invaded their land. His made him popular and people saw him as a savior. Blood shed after blood shed, war after war, there were widows all around the place, he advised his people to marry to the max 4 women, only under their spouses permission, it's a social reformation to make his people survive in he worn torn country. And that too to if he is capable of supporting their life. Only to the max 4 it is allowed, rest is just stories made by people who don't know about Islam. And he a revolutionist trying to stop the atrocities committed to his people. Jesus, yes he is a revolutionist too, he stood up against the Romans, he spoke about love, love thy neighbor, love thy enemy. But today in Christian church are they really speaking about love or hatred towards other religions, have a keen ear, you will be in a shock. In this case, I would say Jews, Christians and Muslims are all of the same background, they share the same history if you read the scriptures you will know. Please these theologians are spreading violence through religious centers in all the above major three religions. It breaks the essence of the religion. I feel pity for all of you guys that you fall pray for the ego for the priests. They don't encourage us to cross-study, please think guys, come on. God sees individuals' hearts, he doesn't cast you into hell due to you are muslim or christian or Jew. If you guys are still going to argue like this. I can't help it, I feel like I'm surrounded by a bunch of medieval brutes. Have some sense. Love, talk love. In no religion the God has appeared and said that this is true path, why? think. Maybe he is testing us for this, how patient we are amidst difference, how kind we are. Ah, but I don't believe in God though. :P

  64. Agree w/ whatevr yavanna said, i watched the earlier doc Islam: what the west needs to know...and now I watched this. What I find interesting after reading all these comments, anyone from the Islamic faith did not not refute any of the points brought up Yavanna or the ones presented in the documentaries (Islam:what the west needs to know), rather just side step the argument and clutter the comment section with useless information. Also I would like to add I am Sikh, and have read about the atrocities Islam brought upon India, with forced conversions. Regardless, of all that what I see is a cycle of violence in this relgion that cannot be ignored even by a moderate or devout muslim, however they can justify it (lol). PBUH all you want but a person condoning violence...not better than the other tyrants. Pardon the mistakes.

  65. BARF!!! How can people seriously think of a child pedophile as their spiritual leader??? Humans are utterly stupid and vulnerable against brain washing :( sad very very sad :( People please get real!!!!

  66. there is no pie in the sky when you die.

    keep hatin' what do you get?

    pure ignorance with no additives.

    take a nice big gulp!

  67. most of all religion are exploited by jew..
    jew are already know whats going to happen in the future.
    coz they experimenting quran. they knew muslim is the true religion. but then they denied it. they already knew soon islam is going to will all things. but they wont let that happen easily. why islam being targeted? why not buddhist?Christian?paganism? and the rest? coz all kind of religion are fake. the only one is matter is islam. thats why they do all agenda and propaganda.
    they corrupted all those bible. their "hidden hand" doing that 9/11. most ppl in the whole world are being "played" by them.

    go google "wakeup project"

    searching, exploring, investigating..
    u'll see soon

  68. hey what i don't understand is why these muslims always have nothing else on there minds but attacking little Israel.
    A religon of hate is seems to me. With no respect for human life or suffering, both killing there own young ones and killing those of the God's chosen race the Jewish people.
    Oh and Allah was the pagan God of the moon in the kaba, I believe a stone statue of the Pagan Moon God Allah, thus when Mohammad heard the words "There is but One God" it was in reference to Allah the moon God speaking to Mohammad stating that the Moon God was the only God, hence the picture of the moon on the islamic flag, Islamist won't admit why their flag has a picture of the moon on it because they are taught lieing is good, they are born liers, kinda funny really, if their lips are moving they are lieing. So islam the religon of the pagan moon god allah , the religon of hate and killing spread by the sword by murder and intimidation not by the true God. And now this religon of hate has been breeding born suicidal murderers, lovely religon, question is what to do about it, what to do with them, what will the final solution be to islam? will have to face up that something drastic has to be done in the near future, these suicide killers can get nukes, germs, or chemical weapons to use in the near future, how to we wipe out these vermon? any suggestions?

  69. "He was & wil remain The best of human kind that ever humanity seen or will ever see."


    Torture till death:
    Sahih Bukhari Vol. 8, Book 82, No. 795 "Narrated Anas: The Prophet(Muhammad) cut off the hands and feet of the men belonging to the tribe of 'Uraina and did not cauterise (their bleeding limbs) till they died."

    Murder people:
    Sunan Abu Dawud Number 4347
    Muhammad said: "When a Slave runs away and reverts to polytheism, he may lawfully be killed."

    Women beating:
    Abu Dawud Book 11, Number 2142 : Muhammad said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.

    Muslim Book 8, Number 3310 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

    Rape of women infront of their men:
    Abu Dawud volume 2, number 2150: "Abu Said al-Khudri said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse: [Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." That is to say, they are lawful for them when? they complete their waiting period."

    Lie to murder people:
    Bukhari Volume:4 Book :52 Number :271
    Narrated Jabir: The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)."

    No wonder if muslims think "He was & wil remain The best of human kind that ever humanity seen or will ever see." stand for 99% of all conflicts in the world.

  70. I read these comments and all i can see is a world full of confusion and people with misconstrued notions of our prophets. What matters is constructing future societies based on teachings of understanding, humility, respect and rationality, remember whatever the message from who ever we all share a common puprose in this world, that is sustainability and prosperity. Finnally look closer to all religions and you will find that they all share the one and only important notion of existance that is LOVE.. Kind regards brother and sisters, ALEXI

  71. And to the people that cannot see beyond the Prophets marriage to Aisha, and the people trying to convince other otherwise, is a waste of time, whether you are doing so via, basic mathematical calculations or quoting Hadith, or references, please remember, they are only speculations, this is not the proof of anything, we have questions in all faiths, and in everyday life that we do no have answers to, and trying to convince otherwise is waste of time. Mis-conceptions will remain, opinions will remain the same, arguing here that women should be able to drive in K.S.A, would not change it otherwise, since there were no cars, during the prophets time, so I find many Islam fatwas baseless and pardon me when I refer to many (if not all) modern day religious leaders as stupid. You cannot amend the word of God, all you can do is take a leap of faith.

    I believe in evolution, we all evolved from simple one cell organisms, that does not rule out the existence of God, at-least for me, but for all the 'necessities' for life to evolve over millions of years, it is hard for me to believe on a personal level that we are merely here by chance or trial and error (according to some scientific theories). To understand God, we have to understand the universe first, so we have a long way ahead of us. disagreements are more than welcome :)

  72. Shri Ramachandra married Sita when she is 7 year old.

  73. Yavanna,
    If you don’t know the truth about massacre of child and innocents for oil by Christ believers what you recently agreed. Then why argue .Please do research. Since inception the Christian world and Christians are always indulge in wars/massacre i.e. example conflict between catholic and protestant. Great wars I & II, Vietnam War. If you sum up the total and compare it with the conflicts in Islamic world you will find Christianity is most violent then all other religion I am not saying this it is the number. What is the status of a woman in Christianity that’s known to everyone and what rights you have till 19th Century please find it. It’s my earnest request. Look down 1400 years ago a man stand with Allah’s massage and its spread across the world. This it self attesting the truth Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him is righteous. Christians have not putt there very resources, power to stop it but what’s the result Islam is unstoppable it rules the heart of Billions and continued to more. Recently sister of your frontrunner in Iraq inversion, Mr.Tony Blairs Sister adopt Islam and abounded Christianity is sufficient to attest the above.

  74. gandhi was 13 years when he got married...

  75. lol
    why are you arguing with vegetable head fundamental avengilic christians.
    when they can not attack the quality of message they try to slander the character. their hearts will always burn in agonizing envy for which alas there is no cure. alas only death will settle for their questions and shameful lies they spread around. there is no point in arguing with these hypocrites.

  76. There is no sense if debating religion with those whose hearts have been sealed, those of you who are muslim will be aware of the ayaz that states that there are those whose hearts are locked and no one can unlock them, you have done your duty in attempting to correct what is wrong, there is no sense in continuing to argue, it just gives those who want to slander islam more reason to continue.

  77. @ Bader;

    Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
    Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
    Sahih Bukhari 5.234
    Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90

    If Ayesha was older i.e. 16 or 18 as some Muslims claim, she would have remembered the religion of her parents prior to becoming Muslims.

    Now someone may still claim that all these hadithes are lies. People are free to say whatever they want. But truth is clear like the Sun for those who have eyes.

    No sane person would be aroused by a 9-year-old child. Decent people wince at the thought of this shameful act. Yet some Muslims deny them. The question is why so many followers of Muhammad would fabricate so many false hadithes about the age of Ayisha, which incidentally confirm each other?

    I can tell you why people would attribute false miracles to their prophet. Babis believe that Bab started to praise God as soon as he was born. There is a Hadith like that also about Muhammad. Christians believe the birth of the Christ was miraculous and the Jews believe Moses opened a dry passageway through the Red Sea. Believers love to hear these stories. It confirms their faith. There are many absurd miracles attributed to Muhammad in the hadiths, despite the fact that he denied being able to perform any miracles. But why should anyone fabricate a lie about the age of Ayisha that would portray his Prophet as a pedophile?

  78. @ Yavanna

    i didn't see the documentary yet but i was reading the comments that Mohammed (PBUH) married Ayisha when she was 6 and was officially his wife while she was 9 years old..

    her's some mathamatics in Abo Bakr's Biography ( Ayisha's Father)

    1- Mohammed (PBUH) was in Mekkah for 13 years .. from age 40 till age 53 and stayed in Medina for ten years and died when he was 63 (PBUH)
    2- Mohammed PBUH married Ayisha on teh 2nd year he was in Medina ,, aged 55 years

    now .. please pay attention to what im about to say,,

    * Ayisha was engaged to a man before marrying mohammed peace be upon him called Jobair Ibn Mot'em and he wasn't a muslim and Jubair's father opposed against Islam, So When did Abu Bakr agree that Ayisha can be engaged to a non-muslim while non-muslims at that time where restricted to marry muslim women and vice versa ?
    Of course he wouldve agreed before he converted to Islam.
    Also if you may know that Abu Bakr (Ayisha's father) was the first Man to convert to Islam , in addition, that Abu Bakr's children were all born before Abu Bakr himself converted to Islam.

    * little of math here, since Islam was found when mohammed PBUH was 40 , and Abu Bakr was the 1st to convert to Islam.. not to forget that Mohammed PBUH married ayisha when he was 52 (2 years after moving to Medina) ,, and hypothetically speakingthat Ayisha was engaged when she was an infant she would be at least 12 years old plus 2 years since he became officially her husband she would be 14 years old !!!

  79. Is it true that a majority of Muslim men are latent homosexuals?

  80. my friend wants to know if some of the 72 can be goats. Not me, my friend...just want to make that clear.

  81. Do all 72 have to be virgins? Or could half of them be cocI< sucking whores?

  82. ...he could not read or write...well that explains a lot.

  83. After reading all the comments, it's so obvious that Yavanna is a scholar in Islam comparing to all of you muslims here,what a shame..

    If you go and check on her comments one by one (with an open mind and with an outsider's eye as she said), you'll be ashamed of yourselves, although I'm not an athiest but an x-muslim,I totally agree with yavanna 100% in everything she said, go do some research people and read more in your own books,as the whole catastrophy lies in there..(Read Al Bukhari,Al Seera Al Halabiyya,Muslim..Al kortobi)and read thoroughly to understand, then come out and debate with non muslims who obviously know about your religion more than you do, that'll make you look better and help you focus on the subject rather then personal insults just to cover up your ignorance.

  84. CORRECTION: I mean it makes in non existing in islamic TRADITION and due to masturbating not being permitted.. thighing would not be accepted by islamic law and can be seen a serious serious sin/offend.. im no scholar so i don't know the exact ruling and punishment, but this is what i know

  85. I read something about thighing and I didn't know what it was actually, so I looked it up.

    I was shocked to read what it entailed, but I just want to clear that MASTURBATING is not even permitted in Islam which makes to whole issue of 'thighing' none existing in islamic LAW!

    That it happens in real life only shows that we have some disturb people living amongst us today and I hope that Allaah (God) will cure whatever problems they are dealing with.

  86. Proof as to why all religion sucks, right here on these forums, different religions already and constantly waring with each other, the only time it will stop is when they all annihilate each other, or when all religion is outlawed!

  87. i do not understand why in these posting my brothers and sisters trying to defend our prophet , against. . a real crazy person yavanna. history shows us that housands of such sick people rose against islam and Prophet and vanised. our islam is True our prophet is perfect we all belive on his ill our death. there is no need o discuss our pure religion with these kind of sick people.

  88. And while we're talking about 'True Love", let me tell you what we love....
    We love our Creator, our Prophet, the past Prophets (including Jesus, Moses, Abraham) and our Imams. And no matter how much of Islam bashing you will do, we will strive to continue to
    1) Be good to our parents
    2) Fulfil the rights of our neighbors
    3) Give charity
    4) Avoid pride
    5) Avoid self deception and egotism
    6) Enjoin Justice
    7) Enjoin courtesy
    8) Avoid Love for fame
    9) Avoid greed and oppression and hypocricy
    10) Be thankful and content
    11) Be modest and chaste
    12) Avoid arrogance and backbiting

    Its true that the modern day muslim is little of the above, but that doesnt mean Islam isn't less beautiful when it tells us to enjoin these principles.

  89. "A man that killed thousands of people with his own hands, raped hundreds........"
    As usual, Islam bashing without any proof or quoting concocted other Islam bashing material.

    If you don't like Islam, leave it alone. You say you like "True Love", but it sure doesn't show in ur post.

  90. I can say Christianity, Bhudism, Hinduism, Sikhism, among others are all peaceful religions preaching love, peace, and harmony.

    Islam is the only sick cult (so called religion)that has managed to force or brainwash millions around the world.

    They believe the angel Gabriel came down and gave the "word" to the sicko they follow and call Mohammed. It was the devil himself pretending to be the angel Gabriel.

    The ROOT of the religion itself, the base, the foundation, Mohammed himself all of it, is dirty, sick, and corrupt. God would never send a messenger who could kill, rape, give orders to kill, lie, cheat, the list goes on. ONLY THE DEVIL HIMSELF COULD GIVE ORDERS LIKE THAT.

    I can understand how anyone in the world can follow any other religion in the world, just not the sick cult Islam.

    I want to ask every Muslim this:

    Who would you rather follow, a man who healed the sick, helped the poor, NEVER KILLED OR EVEN LAID ONE NEGATIVE FINGER OR EVEN THOUGHT FOR THAT MATTER ON ANYONE, fed the poor, and EVEN GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US!!!!!!!!!!


    A man that killed thousands of people with his own hands, raped hundreds of women and children, gave orders to kill tens of thousands, cheated, lied, deceived, and soo many undescribable other sickening acts

    The answer is so simple. It is up to you to truly fill your heart with TRUE LOVE, or TRUE HATE. If you pick the latter, well, God Bless your soul, and I forgive you!!!

    If someone hits you, turn your cheek and let him hit the other side, if someone throws a stone at you, throw him or her back a loaf of bread.

    Jesus is love, Jesus is peace. Jesus, Budha, Krishna, Guru Nanak, God Bless them all.

  91. Well, I just came here to comment on some of Yavanna's arguments, but seeing how he hasn't been around for months now it'd be rather pointless.

    Well, anyhow, my opinions regarding Yavanna's arguments and some of the other fellows who are rather experienced with typing ( judging from the length of some arguments ).

    I can see that alot use foreign views were used to judge ancient Arabia. for example, when yavanna's compared the age of consent of Arabia to that of Rome some millennium ago ( which was simply absurd ).
    Or resort to using ad-hominems ( which was just immature ).


  93. Hi all,

    Bear with me on this. I would like to go over one of the points mentioned in the earlier posts.

    As far as I understand and from what I was taught, Islam was not just created 1400 years ago. It was not founded by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (though he certainly was the last messenger). In my faith, Islam simply is, from the very first of Allah's creations to the creation of the man, Adam, before he was cast out from paradise, everything was already in the state of Islam..... a muslim is referred to as someone who serenely submits to this state of free and total submission to Allah and his commandments. And by that definition this should encompass any monotheistic religion that believe in only the one true god and rejects idolatry among other things) before the inception of the prophet Muhammad and the teachings he brought. So in which case at one point the Christians and Jews can be considered as muslims. Then again Allah knows best. If I'm wrong please correct me, I don't want to spread something that is untrue.

    Why I like this reasoning however is because, to me at least,
    it fits the narration that Allah sent a prophet to every ancient nation.

    I would to add that I certainly enjoy reading the post by Qais and Abbas, not to say the least when they don't know a certain fact, they admit it and try to research more on it rather than just to continue arguing without a credible source. (e.g thighing...whodathunkit? first time I ever heard of it)

    For the fatwas, the basic rule of thumb is, if there is doubt refer to the Quran (and the sunnah if you're sunnis) if it doesn't state it inside then don't follow. If something is morally wrong or reprehensible then don't do it. Simple as that.

    I have to admit however that my personal bias against those who tries to use every piece of ambiguous rulings - my ratDAR usually lights up aand tells me that this guy is either trying to weasel out of something or trying to get his own way.

    We have to remember that though the internet is a great source of reference material, it also a great vehicle for misinformation. We have to practise self-editing. Its bad enough human language is so limiting.

  94. nice doc, its not in detail but its good efort from the maker, 8 out of 10.

    and to others who r puling each others leg hare. u think ur comment matters, if i want to learn something about a rliogen or any subject, would it wise for me to learn from the comments of total strangers or should i learn from people in my city.

    wel i m in uk. i think i should leve u guys to ur higly educational debate, i m off to college.

  95. @mike, finally some sense

  96. He Peace be upon him was the reason these worlds were created

  97. Unbelievably detailed thread on "my made-up fairy tale, childish need to be led around by the nose religion is better than yours".

    Honestly...where are the reasoning adults who stand on their own analysis? Who use the strength of intellect God has bestowed upon them to grow up and stand on their own two feet?

    And that's the MOST insulting part! We're not even talking about following GOD...noooo...this is about following a couple of guys who were maybe or maybe not a lot of things, but one thing they have in common today is THEY ARE BOTH DEAD!

    Those stories were meant to lead human sheep around 2000 years ago...have you not evolved one bit since then? Don't you think 'Our Father' in heaven would like for us to have grown up just a wee bit by now? Maybe start say, not following extremist murderers, pedophiles, etc...? Huh? Maybe? maybe He expects a little more from us? how about not worshipping dead guys? Ya' think? Maybe put the damn book down and search the soul he gave you?

    Or maybe not.

  98. hi, to all
    my question is
    why there is a consistant concept of God or gods from the start of humain history?

  99. okk let me behave now
    i m not a crazy guy , i just returned smoethin above by reading the comment of that fundamentalist
    that was cold and all
    but let me b reasonable here on

    just answer this

    there are 2 books
    1) quran
    2) bible

    why do follow everything written in them assuming they are exactly what god is, when u can write one for yourself with your brain.
    the first chapter of religion starts in both of them as "god has created the earth and humans"
    which has been falsified and justified all the by evolution and full proofs from Paleontology.
    ** i m writing this bcoz i m a Paleontologist

    so when the first chapter is falsified the hole books are nothing but crap based on that

    Now i now and u know the concept of god do have a raised from them at the first place(whoever may have written them)

    which is all a lie, so we must not behave like a brain washed kids by this blind books and funky priest and mullahs and all
    but live the right life by our own eyes, ways and science.

  100. i agree with alf . i apologize to Yavana and everyone else on behalf of muslims. its not right to do so from both sides .

  101. Salaam Ahmed

    Stop talking like that Ahmed
    Its not consistent with what Islam is about, and ure giving the
    wrong message to people (for all muslims, christians, jews, athiest, agnostics etc.)

  102. Assalam Walaikum

    all my muslim Brothers and Sisters please excuse any spelling mistakes or grammer faults on this comment.

    First of all what I would like to say is Allahu Akbar (Allah is GREAT)
    MashaAllah….SubhanAllah…JazakAllah for sharing this wonderful piece of truth about Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa Salal Laho Alahe Wa-alehi Wasalam not just in front of Muslims but to our non-muslim brothers & sisters as well.

    May Allah tabrakwatala give you Jaza for this beautiful act…Aamin Ya rabal Aalameen.
    f--k allah

  103. 4 Ashraf
    Well, we got a extremist here
    the toughest son of a b*tch alive
    i ask all my Muslim sisters and brothers to execute where ever u find one like this
    he is a holy Mother ***ker formed when the holy book of sh*t(Quran) has ***ked the holy bibles virgin
    this holy ba*tard had ***ked his mother from the womb to come out
    n now he is trying to spread his sperms in the holy mother ***king book of Quran
    no doubt the terrorists are surfing the sites made by non belivers and kafirs
    as well this terrorist are citing the example from the only other book they have read using the far heavy weight word than their mind the "research" and "science"

    kill such kafirs nad kurks and also ***k their holy mothers
    good luck for the same
    On the name of the very holy and respected Allah.....

  104. BABA do some research on this knowledgable man "Yusuf Estes" A former highly respected priest from Texas... just listen to his biography and tell me what you think :)

  105. Assalam Walaikum

    Brothers and Sisters from all faiths, before i start please excuse any spelling mistakes or grammer faults on this comment.

    First of all what I would like to say is Allahu Akbar (Allah is GREAT)

    I know all of you are just disccusing or debating but don't you lot think you are going round in circles? Stop wasting your time on YOVANA! You know yourself Islam is true and Allah(SWT) IS THE ONLY GOD AND THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BUT ALLAH.

    Why you lot arguing with her?(with YOVANA) Who is she and why do you need to prove something to her? She is all wrong, her head is screwed on backwards. YOU LOT ARE INCOURAGING HER TO SAY THESE THINGS ABOUT OUR RELIGION WHICH ARN'T TRUE. She is HARAM! and needs help a lot of help.

    YOVANA who or what do you worship? CHARLES DARWIN? JAY Z?

    YOVANA I seriously think you have been dropped on the head as you was a baby many times. I hope your head heals very soon.

    BABA your just a funny guy, you are speaking so much trash its unbelievable. I believe in Jesus(PBUH) but he is not God but a messenger of Allah(SWT). Yo BABA your talking about testiments? which one? by the way how many is there? You do know there is only ONE version of the HOLY QUR'AN and has NOT ever been modified.

    Anyways Brothers and Sisters lets hope and pray these non believers start believing and get on the right path.

  106. REplying to Yavanna:

    People confuse Mohamed and his true message with the interpretation and biases of later generations of rulers. Mohamed was a different man, than anyone who claims to profess Islamic thought (mufti's) after him. Each had an agenda (politics and war, corruption, etc.) Mohamed had no agendas.

    So when you say you've watched the two videos basically back to back, you're seeing two different interpretations, Mohamed's Islam, and the Islamic leaders that followed, and were nothing like him, and thus more militant.

    When the Quran speaks of infidels, it was referring directly to Mohamed's contemporary world, and the people that were trying openly to kill him. Those were his enemies, but it wasn't his choice. If someone wants to kill me, I can call him infidel, or enemy, but it is taken out of context in the west to mean something much more than its historic context.

  107. I'd like to add a few things that I learnt recently about thighing and the concept of child marriage. I'd rather put all the facts before everyone, instead of being crooked and mentioning only what I like. But there's a problem. I cannot explain it well until I clarify the concept of a "Mahram". So here I go...

    The concept of the "Mahram"
    In simple words, my mother, my sister, my daughter, my aunt, my mother-in-law and other similar "very close" relatives are "Mahram" to me and I am "Mahram" to them. Hence they don't have to observe Hijab" or the Veil in front of me.

    The concept of child marriage
    With some differences, jurists are of the opinion that the guardian of a minor boy/girl can marry their wards under the pretext of "them" (the guardians) becoming "Mahram" with the spouse of their wards. This can be useful when for eg. when a friend of a husband comes to stay at home for a few days. He is of course Non-Mahram with the husband's wife and hence she has to observe the hijab in front of him (Which can be pretty inconvenient esp. if it has to be observed the whole day). (Same situation holds true while travelling etc). Then the husband could marry his daughter to the friend so that his wife need not observe hijab in front of his friend (because the wife now technically became the mother-in-law of the friend and therefore "Mahram"). The marriage would then become void afterward (read on further pls)

    OK. Marrying one's minor son/daughter just to convenience one's wife from wearing Hijab??? Wierd but maybe my point will be clearer by mentioning statements of some jurists

    Sistani says: a father or a paternal grandfather can contract the marriage of his na-baligh (minor) son or daughter with another person for a short period, provided that it does not involve any scandal or moral lapse. And if the marriage contract does not involve any moral lapse or scandal, but the minor son or daughter calls off the marriage, then as an obligatory precaution, a Divorce or a renewed marriage, whatever the case may be, must be recited.

    Khoei says: In order to become "mehram" a father or a paternal grand father can contact the marriage of his minor girl with another person for an hour or more, but it is necessary that the marriage should be beneficial for the girl.

    Fadlullah says: Nor do they have the right to marry the minor boy or girl who has not yet attained puberty without her consent. Rather, the young woman must consent if they are to be allowed to marry her

    Makarim Shirazi says: It is permissible for the father and grandfather, in order to become a close relative "Mahram" to a Woman, that they marry her to their immature son(with the condition that the period of marriage is so long that it includes the interval in which the child will become capable of sexual enjoyment). Likewise, it is permissible that (a man) marry his immature daughter to a person in order that he becomes a close relative (mahram) to his family(with the same condition which has passed in the instance of the son). It is obligatory in both situations, according to obligatory precaution, that the contract has benefit and advantage for both sides and that it be devoid of corruption.

    Please notice the phrases such as "does not involve any moral lapse" or "should be beneficial for the girl" or "young woman must consent" or "benefit and advantage for both sides" or "devoid of corruption". Cont'd...

  108. @yavanna, its hopeless, dont waste more of your time milking bulls! talking to people with a lifetime brainwash experience wouldnt take you anywhere, its hopeless

  109. @ everyone

    some very good arguments but i just wanna get to the point.

    there will never be an agreement on religion and i feel that this is partly because people take religion as an identity.
    As a human race we have developed intellectually and technologically, but our moral development is lagging way behind, which is why in this forum muslims and non muslims cant discuss this issue but rather argue it.

    anyone trying to prove anything should know they are going to fail

    Religion is beautiful, let us understand and comprehend that whatever religion a person follows be it true or false in our own eyes is really a tool to help those people or guide them through a moral and peaceful life, WITH ALL OTHERS WHO ARE JUST AS EQUAL, period. whether they choose the same religion, another or non at all.

    I am a muslim myself and on a personal note also i would like to say to every1 that in Islam there is lots of room for inquiry and for one who seeks to question and understand. while i cant act like i know everything about my religion and go on to right several paragraphs explaining y it is the best i can say something that may seem shocking to many of you. In Islam we are taught that to be knowledgeable ( "alem" in arabic) is better than 60 years of prayers. That is one who seeks knowledge may better appreciate God when they come to realize the complexity of our being and everything around us. rather than one who believes everything he is told, who sits and recites a book that he does not understand.

  110. So in conclusion what exactly are you saying? That all the good teachings of the muslim's prophet are invalidated because he adhered to a conduct perfectly normal in the society in which he lived? If he said for example "be good to your mothers" or "help the sick and poor" those things are to be forgotten and he should not be credited with,just because he behaved according to his society's customs? What if Jesus would have done something which we shun today but was normal in Judea of his time? All his good work would fly out the window?

  111. Yavanna many of our own ancestors might have been "pedophiles" by today's standards.Shall we crucify them all? Shall we repudiate all generations that came before us because today'd modern age has coined the term pedophile? Yep,let's invent a time machine go back in the past and bring to justice all that married young girls as it was the custom.Let's judge them by our moral standards which in a 1000 years or so might be entirely different and then you might be called a criminal for something you do today that is considered normal.

  112. hi

    no matter what people say no matter what western media do to tarnish the image of islam and muslims around the global and whether you like it or not Islam is today the fastest growing religion of all religions especially among women. women that you claim to be oppressed and deprived from their rights. is every woman who converts stupid or brainwashed ?
    im pretty sure islam haters have a hard time digesting this facts .
    as to Yavana yes my friend people may be offended by your comments towards the prophet or islam simply because if you love someone you would not like to hear such things about him, this is human nature i guess, you will not be impressed if i insult your daughter or mother to say the least. acts like these help to widen the gap between us rather than come to an understanding.

    i was very pleased to read all the comments though.

  113. @Yavanna

    Come see me and i will discuss, in dept what Islam is about!!
    you obviously have some misconceptions which i would like to knock out off you.

    Interested?? let me know and i shall pass on my details.

  114. sorry to add; but with all these words what's good comes off it?

  115. @ somethin

    even in Quran it was indicated that societies will alternate in controlling the world... Islam was a the biggest power in the world for more than 7 centuries.
    even our prophet (PBUH) mentioned that we will rise, then we will fall, and ultimately we will rise again.
    and the reason why we fell is because we stray away from the path of Islam.

    I don't know about the Greek. but Islam has a constitution (Quran and sunna) and in this constitution there is a set of rules on how to treat women, slaves, animals, orphans, parents respect, how to help the poor....and many others.

    which brings me to the subject of killing non believers, Islam as a complete ideology (you can perceive it as a self contained country and the Quran and sunna being the constitution for that country) need rules how to defend itself and to create an army. and I believe there is no harm in that and that all countries has armies. However, real Muslims do not kill a person only because he is a non believers, even at the time of our prophet (PBUH) Muslim and non-Muslims lives peacefully side by side, knowing that it was Muslims who were in control. but at the same time Allah (swT) asks us to take harsh action against any one who is trying to harm this Islamic society. and believe what Allah and his Prophet has told us 1400 hundreds of year to stay strong because nonbelievers will just search opportunity to destroy you. and it is clearly portrayed on the many wars led by America and its allies in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Chechnya, and many other Muslim countries and soon Iran.
    In conclusion my dear friend Muslims do not people because are nonbelievers, but because they are harming the religion and its follower. and go read history... at the time of the prophet if a Muslim killed another person (whether muslim or not) for reason other than defendant the religion we will be punished

  116. @your french cousin

    Merci beaucoup pour votre reponse. I will not say that our religion is the truth (I believe it is the truth). but in order for your argument to be reliable you should not dissmiss the believes of others. I agree with you Islam as a religion has a lot to do with faith, and believes that we judge that the human brain can not comprehend.. as some of people may judge as fantasies. however Islam as a complete religion gave a chance to people who likes to investigate. There are even books about the scientific miracles of Quran.

    Dear friend this point bring us whether these are God words or not. by historical evidence and this is not myth the Prophet Mohamed was an illiterate... in addition the Quran was written with such delicacy and beauty that even impossible for a Group of the best writers to create something similar.

    If I am correct you said that if we gave some time to humanity they will come yp with a better ideology. to create Harmony while everyone abide by the same rules. in order to perceive everyone to believe in your ideology and abide by one rules is impossible, even faith which can create the highest level of commitment can be perceived differently.

    second my dear friend I am coming from an Arabic Islamic background. and I have been living in north America for more than 6 years. it is true that capitalism in North America and Europe advanced societies to an imaginable level of innovation in all level technology business, industry...however my dear friend I am surprised at the same time at the low level of human, family marriage (in general social value) that these capitalistic societies has attained

  117. Aristotle stated: “To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true.”
    Thus according to this principle which we may use, religions would be neither true nor false...

    A believer cannot say it is true and a non-believer cannot say it is not, as we cannot ask god to let us know which one is true, if any. The truth is that the true answer is unknown to all of us so we cannot speculate on it nor agree with it in-life. The Aristotle principle, which I agree is more of a brain game than a really useful and definate principle, does not work for metaphysical truth-seeking efforts as we can never agree on them -unless of course we were taught to take metaphysical beliefs for truth and threatened not to doubt them.

    I just hope we can settle one day on the definition of the word "true" so we may restrain from using it :-)

  118. @Proud Muslim

    You are right about the way of life. Islam is before all a pragmatic system of life behaviour and morals which seek harmony. But there is an infinity of systems that can provide harmony, and some may be even more successful than this one. It is a matter of time and contract. If everybody binds to the same rules, then the underlying system can provide society with harmony. This is true for any religious system. What makes Islam unique is the mixing between metaphysical myths and details about life management going as far as the way you wash, a true novelty on that particular shelf.
    But that does not make it a product of god to be worshiped exclusively on his command. To think that these writings are God's, more than mine are, or yours, is a step into beliving what cannot be proven relying on faith rather than truth. Truth can be verified by definition (thats the language), beliefs are object of faith, that can be HOPED for, thats all. Truth is different than belief. I would be grateful to all religious people to stop saying their religion is true: it is a mistake in the use of the word "truth" which puts a lot of disharmony into our faithful societies.

  119. Wow. Very interesting thread. I'm reading even if I don't post.

  120. @ Saif 01/17/2010 at 21:52
    "Atheism failed to make me stable, I’ve never felt the inner peace..."

    Thats right: being without religion is a tough thing for the mind because such questions regarding after death, morals and the meaning of life are not served on a religious tray.

    But it is possible to believe in god and have faith in humanity. Thinking that a designer is behind all this is normal, thinking that his intentions are great in terms of love and happiness for us humans is a more difficult step, but it is still possible to have faith in this and be positive all along, just with a free thinking mind.

    Religions have not been followed for no reasons. They do bring a coloring to the mind's most important and metapgysical questions, but hey, there are hundreds of religions, like there are hundreds of artists. What makes one become major is often a matter of luck rather than merit so, far from being perfectly adjustable to a clear understanding of god's intentions, religious dogmas and texts fail to pass my intelligence et emotional test.

    I am glad to have a stable and wise mind of my own, not thanks to a text book of some sort. But hey, humans have a tendency to act as a herd of sheep who moreover can read, so be it.

    And as you rightly share, the most important is to feel stable et meaningful, so from a pragmatic point of view I would encourage all unstable and fragile souls to seek stability in religion.

    Farewell cousins.

  121. So baseline is...1400 years and no Progress at all? Wow I'm impressed....not!

    By the way...ancient greece "founded" Democracy, therefore: Democracy is older than Islam and its still around so...example delievered.

    And jeah brilliant Idea: Applie Islam to the whole World and there will be peace...just what do you do with the people that do not want to convert? Don't worry the answer is , of course, in your holy book...kill all nonbelievers. I guess Islam truly does mean peace, peace when all infidels are dead oder second rate citizens. What a great "way of life".
    You know...i don't think anyone really wants to do "better" than islan in that regard. :)

    btw. sry for my english, it's been quite a while since i last had to write in english. ^^'

  122. For All the people who are trashing Islam... I would like to challenge you to bring one example throughout history of an ideology that even came close to achieving to what Islam did... Communism is dead, Capitalism (being one of the most racist selfish Ideology) is going toward destruction. while Islam for more than 1400 years still standing up..with more and more people converting to this wonderful religion !
    Islam is not just a is a way of life that is self contained... if we applied all the rules in Islam on this earth. every one shall live in peace and an example 1400 years ago the time of complete male dominance Islam came to give women full rights. Islam gave rights also condemned slavery and ordered every single person to free his slaves..Islam even gave rights to animals 1400years ago. Islam is the only true ideology that truly call for equality between human being where there is no difference in race or ethnicity where Muslims call each other brothers/ please tell me even in our modern "sophisticated life" do we really have some thing even close to what this religion has achieved.

    Salam! Peace!

  123. Qais,

    You seem like a nice enough person. I've decided to drop the entire issue. I can only say that Christianity and Islam both suck. I've studied them both and it is my conclusion these beliefs are born of the imagination of Man. Self serving and clever men needed a way to explain the natural world, thunder, lighting, earthquakes, stars, earth, floods, landslides, etc....

    They came up with a system to keep the idiot masses in line, just like you do with children. God/Allah is merely Santa for adults. It is clear these books serve the rich only. Islam is a good deal if your an alpha male. Christianity is an easy life for clergy. I'm not convinced that the supreme intelligence and or creator of everything would want humans to kill each other forever and ever for the reasons provided by Koran or Bible.

    I was going to give you a link to youtube where there is a discussion on "Thighing" by Islamic scholars but forget it, I'm done with it all. I'm here now, I will die some day, that is all I really know. I will live my life by an old Buddist saying (600 yrs before Christ, who takes credit for it) "I will do unto others as I wish others to do unto me".


  124. Steve,
    Sorry for the waiting.

    Now lets discuss. If you think you are satisfied with my answer I gave you before on the underage marriage. Then based on the same fact, with a lady grown up and her husband everything is allowed to do except for anal sex.

    But I think my code of ethics does not allow me to discuss or even think of the kind of relationships my neighbor keeps with his wife in bed. It is none of my freaking business. So set aside the Prophet of Islam. After all he was a Prophet not an angel. Prophets are human beings and they eat, drink, sleep and have intimacy with women.

    As far as your seriousness of Thighing and hanki panki with kids is concerned, I suppose you might have read it in one of the anti-islam blogs and websites (which i came across last night after I read the term thighing for the first time from your post). There is nothing regarding legitimizing such an act throughout the Koraan. All I found from those anti Islam blogs was that it was legitimized by Mr. Ayatullah Khomenie who has nothing to do with Islam as a whole and shall not be considered a legislative authority in Islam. I agree the nation of Iran stands for him and put him next to the Holy Prophet, but the rest of the muslim world doesn't give a damn about him. Islam doesn't allow legislators, The Law is already there, The Shariah.
    And by the way according to the Tradition of Islam in Quraan anyone who changes or adds anything to the religion from his own idea commits the greatest sin of all Shirk which Allah promised will never be forgiven. I am sorry if my Shiite friends might feel hurt, but yet I request them to stop following people other than The Prophet himself, The Koran and the Hadith.
    By the way I don't know why you spend your time reading these stupid websites which are only different in design but the text is copy and paste word by word among all the sites I found on the matter of Thighing. This itself shows that the matter is being wrongly propagated by a single source. Propaganda means lie, thus the sites you learnt from about tighing are nothing but bogus.

    I personally would like to share my experience studying religions with my friends here. By studying I don't mean reading their books, by studying I means to Live like them, to be the follower for sometime and find the unspoken part of the religion. To know what it really is, and how does it affect. Going to the extreme of it, the scriptures completely understood and read.

    That is why I don't start open shooting of harsh words on any religion when I hear or see something which seem improper and unjust to me. Because I learnt from Islam that my eyes will only see what it appears to be, but not the reality. And my ears also. That is why, I go on experiencing myself.

    Be part of Islam or any Monotheistic religion and be fully involved in the sense you are required to be involved by the religion, and you will see miracles happening. It is the belief that makes the miracles not the physics. That is why, Eemaan or Faith in Islam is the prime necessity. With a stronger faith, you will see and experience greater miracles, with a weaker one small miracles, with no faith no miracles. Miracles are not just automatic happenings, rather the faith creates that meta physical force that effects the outer world and make these things happen.

  125. Qais, I'm awaiting your Taqiyya.

  126. Steve I request your patience, will respond in 5 hours. Haven't slept for 38 hours now.

  127. Still waiting for a defence of mufa'khathat (thighing),...

  128. Oh my, this discussion just brought an old realization of mine back to the surface which I really need to get off my chest:

    If only everybody would accept other people's views as they are, our world would be such a nice place. It's so silly: people disputing about unprovable ideas, yet still assume that they are 100% correct. Telling other people they will be eternally damned and essentially living for the afterlife themselves.

    For an outsider it seems like two small children fighting about which toy is better: there is no answer, yet each party declares to have it.

    These things wouldn't be such a big deal if they wouldn't decide upon such fundamental problems. It's one thing if we argue about which toy is better, it's another one if we argue which one of us will burn eternally in hell.

    I'm sure each one of you, theist, christian, muslim, or atheist, is a 'good' person deep down inside. But through these pointless discussions, the finger-pointing and you-will-burn-in-hell-screaming nothing more than hate is created.

    But I don't blame it on the people themselves: it's a problem with the matter itself. Because of the nature of the dispute, this kind of discussion is bound to happen. As said earlier: the difference between toys and hell is quite large.

    This is why I hope that organized religion will disappear soon. If a calm, intelligent dispute about this topic (god? no god?) will ever be possible, it will be without assuming that religion A is right and religion B is wrong. At the moment, we are discussing the eternal fate of the soul based on arguments that do not exist (I am right because.).

    I'm sorry if this might have been a bit off-topic.

  129. "Thighing"??

    I looked it up, could not believe it! Is it real??

    Am also waiting to see how they can possibly defend that!!


  130. OK, lets say you have defended Mo's pedophilia. What about "thighing" Look it up and defend that. I'm waiting.

  131. Watched this twice. Wouldn't it be nice if this were true but all I kept seeing in my mind was the Muslims dancing in the street on 9-11 by the thousands and the killing of Christians by the hundrends of thousands in Africa.

    Great documentary, however. If I didn't know better, I'd think that Muslims were the most compassionate and the most tender and the most loving of all people world-wide. I definately see how they draw so many. Muslims put us lazy Christians to shame with their zealousness. I wish Christians had a Hajj as well.

    May God forgive us Christians for years of passionlessness and apathy; there should have been no void of faith for Islam to fill had we been truly doing what God had called us to do.

    Quis: You sound like the real deal. With a passion like that, I just wish you were a follower of Christ instead. Contrary to how Jesus is taught in Islam, he did make claims to divinity and His words have not been misinterpreted by his followers. If you'd like to know more privately, then let me know and I will give you one of my e-mail addresses.


    P.S. At least this doc. did address the 9-11 issue and they took the stance that it was wrong for Muslims to commit terrorist acts. If they are not intentionally lying to us, then that was nice to hear.

  132. @ Yavanna,
    I have been thoroughly following your stupid judgement and annoying blind folded attitude towards religions from your comments on various documentaries in this website.

    You are an atheist, but I would have loved it if you were a realist. I was brought up an atheist too, but I chose the Religion of Islam just reading and understanding and finally living it.

    If you are sane enough and professional with your belief in the existence of NO GOD or religion, then before you comment, you ought to quote the exact verse of the Noble Quraan with reference number or a Sahih Hadith from any of the books (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim of Mushkaat).

    Women circumcision is not a common practice in Muslims. It is a stupid cultural thing practiced only rural Egypt and stupid ass b*sturds like yourself who run the media and put such videos on youtube and other un-authentic source spread this lie and defame Islam for such things.

    The marriage to a 9 year old girl is again something the modern age a*sHoles like yourself have been using to defame Islam because they could find no point which could be used for turning people against Islam and to depict the religion as Evil. First thing, this modern day law of under age marriages did not exist 1400 years ago. Secondly not all minors at the age of 9 are physically 2' 6" tall. I met a girl who was 12 but as grown up as a 25 years old lady with fully grown feminine features and was mentally also completely mature as an effect of her physical growth.

    So stop this nonsense and if you really want to know and to know more about this religion take some time to sit down read the Koran Commentary by Ibn Kathir and you will really know the religion. Your knowledge based on which you comment is a filthy street talk and a by product of instant knowledge. Knowledge can't be instant, so stick your arse to the ground and read it before you comment.

    Never again dare to object on the religion of 1.6 billion people with your nonsense saying "I read it somewhere". It is as if I say all the atheists are followers of Aleister Crowley and satanists because they copulate with their mates and other animals in public in front of children because I read it somewhere.

    Let me teach you a basic lesson on learning and acquiring knowledge. The primary lesson is to be a witness, be open with your heart and mind to what you read, and inside your mind make your final decision on whether this is true or false.

  133. There is a natural tendency for everyone to defend their own beliefs when someone questions about it. I think what Yavanna is doing is exactly that. Although, he and others like him are entitled to their views, I think it would be fair to reply to him with logical arguments rather than any arguments from a scripture (because then one would not be on the same platform).
    What the Muslims are defending here are concepts that are deep rooted in philosophy/sociology. To question such concepts is easy but to provide a satisfactory answer requires a lot and lot of research. And even then, there would still be people who question these answers (because of whatever, prejudice, upbringing, popular belief etc)
    By playing a "Miracle Card" and then justifying all else under it does not answer the question, but merely diverts from it.

    On a sidenote, I just cannot see how this world could have been created without a creator and how things are so perfect in the way they are. (Yes this might sound absurd to atheists but (with due respect), I find their belief just as absurd).

    So as far as women's rights go, there are some that I agree with and there are others that I am researching to find out why they are so. (Notice I'm trying to fit truth into whatever I believe in, but then again, whats wrong in using a list of predefined rules as a starting point to see if they fit into the bigger picture, instead of starting to create the rules from scratch(which may be much more complicated than it seems in this case))

    By the way, @Jari referring to your post March 3rd, 2010 at 14:23
    1) Where does Islam prohibit women to drive cars? :)
    2) So, women (AND) men are stoned to death for adultery, but I must ask you to read the Quran chapter 24:1-9. Yes. This is harsh (esp with people who think of it as "normal"), but it is grievous in front of God. Why? Ask a sociologist not me. I'm still reading up about it but I haven't read enough.
    3) "Girl stoned to death for ‘bringing shame on her family’". Where does 'Islam' say this?
    4) "a muslim dad rammed over ..." Where does Islam say this?
    5) "a girl is punished with 80 lashes for BEING gang-raped". Outrageous, seriously. In fact according to Islam, the "raper" should be given a death penalty. I too Strongly Strongly believe in this.

    I think the problem is that we tend to classify stereotypes of a certain faith as the messengers/flag bearers of that faith. What we fail to realize is that no matter what the followers of a faith do, it does NOT reflect the true image of that faith. Now unfortunately western propaganda has led people to believe any big bearded guy might just be a terrorist (sad). [FYI, I personally have a beard like Sean Connery, even slightly less thicker :). I haven't seen anywhere in any text (atleast Shia) that says one should have a long beard]

  134. Dear BBC director,

    Thank you for enjoying me today and finally I could help
    as a helper for your next recommended film abt. "The Prophet
    Muhammad wisdom" which is will be a great addition to your
    greatest efforts to show the actual Islamic Logical and Creative thinking for next generations worldwide and for
    all to peace and humanity too.

    Thank you and best regards too your team of BBC

    Sayed El-khatib ( Egypt )

  135. is it not already understood by most people that the three Abrahamic books all have things in it witch were written for the time they had been written?This is a discussion that has taken place many times. supposedly the mother of Jesus was only 13. By today's standards that would make god him self a pedo. instead of picking out these disagreeable things found in each of these books. perhaps it would more intelligent to to find in these pages the thing all religions can agree on. compassion. personally i don't see how any god would condone the separation of any of his/its peoples. and this what "RELIGION" in and of itself will do. it separates people in taking the stand "I'm right ,you are wrong", and if you don't listen you'll burn in hell. god has the whole universe to look after. do you really think he/it cares if you eat fish on Friday?..or cover your self from head to toe? i don't think so . all we needed to know about what god wants we learned by the time we were 5 years old. don't hurt your bother. and share your toys and your cookies. that's all god needs from you.

    god is not sitting up in the sky ready to judge your every move.

    god is closer to your eyes then your eye lashes. god is in every breath you take. god in the space between each thought you think. god is not hidden. god is completely knowable. behind the eyes of your cat or dog or the ant crossing your drive way. in the growth and life and death of every paint and animal. the real magical fact that you open your eyes every morning. do you really think god cares if you label your self Muslim, catholic, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu?? i promise you in the end when your life is over none of that will matter. what will matter is how you lived your life. do you live in selfish judgment of others? or did you live with compassion and understanding? how will you judge your self?

  136. Achems

    Only people that defeat Sheetan are rewarded this prize!!!

  137. @ buck fush:

    Peace to you also.

    The only truth is what comes from the heart.

    Anything written by man, including the Qur'an, Bible, especially cut and paste, always has an agenda behind it, therefore I do not fully trust the sources.

  138. You people crack me up. What difference does it make it if is cut n paste. Truth is Truth. But I guess some people have problem. Anyway do what you guys want to do. I dont care. Believe in whatever you want because GOD has given us freedom of choice and it is up to you to decide. May God guide you all. Peace and take care.

  139. @Leo

    Then be a wise man.

  140. physics will never tell me how to live a life and die in this world but a wise man can

  141. Actually, I agree with @ BBC:

    Imperfection is what caused the Universe, from the perfect static void.

    Null physics states everything started from the number "0" because there has to be something to become nothing.

    I wrote about Null Physics on "How Did The Universe Begin" on TDF.
    Sept. 28th. 2009 at 05:21

  142. maybe we are perfect ....depends on your perspective.

  143. Yavanna,

    In regards to "Oh for a perfect world! Good night!"

    We as humans are imperfect, therefore the world could never be perfect.

  144. Buck Fush,

    Dr. Naik Zakir twists Qur'an to suit his points. He is not integral of his use of Qur'an and takes verses out of context to suit his purpose to win his arguments.

    One must be careful, of the sources one uses. One should not put their trust in people. If one says they believe in the Qur'an, and the Qur'an is Allah's Book, then this person needs to look to the Book for the answers, and Allah should answer them, if He is truly Allah. If He is truly Allah then one will not need to fudge verses to suit ones argument, the text should speak for itself in context.

    Salam Alaikum

  145. i must agree yavanna
    that was all not necessary BUCK FUSH

  146. where is "1400 years" (a TDF poster) when you need an objective intelligent response?

  147. Buck Fush - Cut and paste is rude. Caps lock is rude. To put the entire paste in BOLD is incredibly RUDE. Please use your own words , your own critical thinking, your own thinking into objective discussion or else don't bother. Because we are all capable of reading websites you paste from. Peace and such!

  148. @ Buck fush:

    What is this? I am not interested in your cut and paste.
    You already included all that in a link.

    Everything on your cut and paste was already thought of, before inclusion in the Qur'an, or, and, it also depends on how people decipher words and sentences, which may have many different meanings.

  149. I suggest looking Into what I have found to be the most Intelligent way of living, A man called Jiddu Krishnamurti.

    You will recognize his voice from being plastered all over the Zeitgeist movies, at beginning and end. He simply denounces all systems of thought, and Instead promotes enquiry and Investigation Into human nature.

  150. @ buck fush:

    To further elaborate what @ Phil: said.

    The first known evidence that the Earth is round, is from the Vedic texts, such as Shalapatha Brahmana "that the heavens are spheres"

    And then Pythagoras-(582-500) was the first person to realize that the Earth, moon and planets are all spheres.

    Leucippus- (F.C.-440) Will be remembered as the man who invented the idea's of the Atom. Empty space, and cause and effect. Even the soul, he said, is made up of Atom's.
    Also reference to Democritus (460-370) about Atoms

    The Greeks where the first to suggest there was a true reality under this apparent reality.

    Thales-(624-546) came up with the idea of "Panpsychism" that the Universe is conscious.

    Parmenides-(540-470) said, what we believe to be a motion of things and change is just an illusion.

    Everything that you state @ buck fush: about the scientific facts in the Quaran, are nothing more than plagiarisms.

    To me all your arguments are "Moot"

  151. @buck: If you think it is possible to justify the killing of human beings, religion is a very dangerous item to be handling. By the way, define innocent.

  152. <<<<Buddhist and i hold the label with pride.
    I see opinions about Islam get really passionate. But can i please remind you all. That life its self is divine and ignorance is the only real sin. For many Muslims Islam really does mean pace.For other Islamic states Islam does also mean pace through submission before condemning the whole group it should be important to see if you can agree on even the smallest point with any individual

  153. @buck fush
    Utter lies and propaganda by famous Islamic scholar Zakir Naik!. This guy is a real nut case just write "zakir naik evolution" in youtube and you'll see this creationist's blatant lies and deception.

  154. @Buck

    So with regards to the huge cut and paste you most recently posted.....

    You are obviously pasting these larger posts from a web source. I`d be interested in that link if you could provide it. The language, terminology and concepts sounds very similar to those used by Hassanain Rajabali; who you might be surprised to hear I am a great fan of.

    I`m not going to deal with "your" post by methodically critising each point but try to summarise a quick reply.

    The God argument: A designer must have made a previously unknown object. No! A man will not always answer that way. Most free thinkers would consider that is unknown object to be a naturally occurring one if not man-made. "God did it" is not the only answer to the unknown but a lazy conception that prevents further examination and thought.

    For an atheist to not believe in God: The pen anaology is flawed and irrelevant. We do not believe in something that doesn't exist - a pen exists. There is no simpler way of putting it. We base our concepts of God upon what theists insist "he" is. We do not to invent our own.

    Qu'ran and Modern science:

    I see that Phil has just posted on this very adroitly so I will just add a comment. Muhammad's trade route took him to Greece where virtually all the "scientific knowledge" in the Qu'ran was already known and studied. Even so it has glaring mistakes, probably caused by mistranslated plageurism from greek texts. For instance there are several descriptive verses stating the Earth is flat, however the only verse in the Qu'ran that evenly remotely hints at the Earth being geospherical indicates that Muhammad believed the earth to be shaped like an ostrich egg (79:30). But even with that verse you really have to stretch the meaning of the verse to make it fit that description.

    Theory of probability. This the the basic finite argument used in different variations of the cosmological argument (groan). Just because numbers or probabilities get very big to the point of infinty does not mean something is impossible. If a dice had a billion numbers. You could roll it a trillion times and the number 7 might never come up. However if you continued to roll the dice EVENTUALLY by the law of probability it would come up. So what you might see as our existence being so miraculous that only a God could have created it, I see as evidence of eventuality, a fact. Our existence is proof in itself that eventualities occur. The exact probability of our existence is in fact 1:1. If the universe had evolved in a slightly different way we would not be here talking about this. However that is not to say that life might not exist in a different way.

    Non Muslims have a false view of Islam. You may be right. Show us the true picture of Islam without retorting to scripture or gushing philosophies quotes or sayings. Prove to me every Muslim I see in videos advocating violent Jihads is an actor. Prove to me all the bad stuff I see is made up propoganda.

    Buck Fush posted on the TDF doc "New American Century" :

    "March 1st, 2010 at 20:36
    Death to America."

    Which particular view would you like us to believe? The well conceived arguments by Muslim scholars such as you have since started cutting and pasting here... or comments you have truly made?

    Such utterances made by you and also some very insulting and aggressive comments made within this doc's comment section does your story of "Islam the religion of peace" very little justice. I`m not an admirer of Francis Bacon but here's a fitting quote for you to consider: "He that gives good advice, builds with one hand; he that gives good counsel and example, builds with both; but he that gives good admonition and bad example, builds with one hand and pulls down with the other."

  155. @buck fush
    "Aristotle (384 BCE - 322 BCE)
    Aristotle provided physical and observational arguments supporting the idea of a spherical Earth:

    * Every portion of the Earth tends toward the center until by compression and convergence they form a sphere. (De caelo, 297a9-21)
    * Travelers going south see southern constellations rise higher above the horizon; and
    * The shadow of Earth on the Moon during a lunar eclipse is round. (De caelo, 297b31-298a10)."
    --------------wikipedia: Spherical earth--------------

    This was nearly 1000 years before Islam , so your arguments hold no water .

    Also,About 2500 years ago, Anaximander said that life originated in water and that simple forms preceded complex forms. Democritus thought that the simplest forms of life arose from a kind of primordial ooze [Carl Sagan, Cosmos ].

  156. @Buck

    Although Allan has beaten me to the punch regarding your 9 points and made some very good arguments against them I`d like to offer my perspective too:

    After which I`ll deal with your even bigger cut and paste rhetoric:

    1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust. THIS isn't the past. This is the present and the history of Babylon etc is irrelevant. You argue that Islam gave better rights to pre-Islam women (1400 years ago). Well it may well have done so. But then that progress stopped and stood still. Islamic laws and concepts are based on a reality existing in barbaric and ignorant times. Humanity has evolved since then. Catch up.

    2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status. Give evidence please.

    3. Hijaab includes conduct and behaviour among other things. Why should such codes of practice be necessary? To paraphrase an earlier Muslim comment: "everyone has rights to live the way they want." So why prescribe their every waking moment to offset that freedom?

    4. Hijaab prevents molestation. Really? So if say a woman in Iran was to put on a bikini suit and go lay on the beach she would immediately be set upon by her Muslim brothers and gang raped? That a Muslim woman needs to be covered up for her own protection says nothing about the woman but a lot about such "pious" men.

    5. Example of twin sisters. This is a similar argument used in the west. Ie "She was dressed like a whore - she was ASKING to be raped." This is a misnomer. A rapist wouldnt care what a woman is wearing if that was his intent. I agree to a certain extent is increases the risk but then a woman's freedom gives her the ability to make choices with regards to her own safety.

    6. Capital punishment for the rapists. I think this is a measure for societies and nations to decide. I believe rapists should be put to death in severe cases. I would bring back executions for murderers and terrorists in my country given the choice.

    7. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women. This is repeated repeated repeated repeated ad nauseum. I personally feel this negates the possibility of women having any intelligence and I`m sure any western woman would argue this point in an agressive way.

    8. USA has one of the highest rates of rape. Allan has made some good points here and I refer you to my earlier post where I said "Impossible to discuss or compare the number of rapes between east and west (I say east and west for simplicity of argument) as the “west” records allegations of such, investigates and prosecutes those crimes. Difficult for the east to record rapes when under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses. All that aside I cant remember a single case where a western victim was LEGALLY murdered (killed for honour purposes) or forced to marry her rapist." I can positively assure you that if western victims of rape were treated in the same way they wouldn't report rape either. I suggest rapes in the East are far more prevalent that what is reported / recorded.

    9. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes. Everyone being forced to live in plastic bubbles would reduce rape too. Would you want that? I guess not - well WE do not want sharia which amounts to the same.

    Religions are obsessed with sex and Muslims in particular with rape. This is because GUILT is a tool used to subject their followers to obedience.

    Whilst the west does have issues associated with the freedoms we enjoy let me assure you there really isn't a huge orgy going on. Most of us live very mundane monogamous low key peaceful and morale lives.

  157. @buck fish

    No I didn't say that the woman won't fight back. I said that the man picking may assume that.

  158. To all the Atheist

    Logical Concept of God

    My first question to the atheist is: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognize or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.

    If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.

    Qur'an and Modern Science

    The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.

    Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.

    If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.

    Scientific Facts Mentioned in the Qur'an

    Theory of Probability

    In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

    A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

    Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

    At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

    The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

    Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

    The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

    Creator is the Author of the Qur'an

    The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.

    Qur'an is a Book of Signs and not Science

    Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.

    But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.

    Science is Eliminating Models of God but not God

    Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).

    Surah Fussilat:

    "Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"

    [Al-Quran 41:53]

  159. 8. USA has one of the highest rates of rape

    The number is very high yes. But the percentage is very low compared to the population. We also have a broader definition of rape. Some of these reported rapes are actually sexual assaults i.e; gropings and date rapes. And the number reported does not mean that all these women were raped viciously on the streets.

    Approximately 28% of victims are raped by husbands or boyfriends, 35% by acquaintances, and 5% by other relatives. (Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1994)

    I would also like to add that the amount of women who report being raped in the US is higher then the number who report it in the Middle East. Therefore comparison of the statistics is inherently flawed.

    9. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes

    Again I would like to make referance to the definition of rape. Calling it something else will reduce the rate, but it will not change the problem.

  160. @ Allan
    So you think a women in a Hijab will allow guys the rape him? Are you kidding. No matter what she wears she is gonna fight back.
    As far as women being exploited are concerned. Yes your are right that they have right to choose but many countries they are forced into prostitution

  161. @buck fush

    5. Example of twin sisters

    While this seem's to make perfect sense it really doesn't because your are baseing it on assumptions. Maybe if you were the one who was going to try and do the raping it might be true. This is your logic. Some rapists may assume the woman in the skirt is more likely to fight back, therefore not choose her. You can't assume you know what is going on in the minds of these people.

    6. Capital punishment for the rapists

    Nice observation but flawed. The reason the husband isn't the judge is because he would have a personal bias on the case therefore true justice cannot be served. We have laws in the west to prevent this.

    7. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women

    We do not exploit womans bodies. The woman who exploit their own bodies make this decision on their own. They have the right to choose, that is what we offer them. Plus, exploitation to you, may not be explotation to her.

  162. @Yavanna

    "As for you apologetics that are not muslim yet are appeasers and “respect all religions and faiths” for the sake of your own morale fibre (more probably because you don’t have enough backbone to say what you feel) do some f***ing research."

    I can't help but feel that this is directed at my comment. I said to respect the message that these religions preech not to respect the religion itself.

    Here in Canada we do not have a problem with Islam and Islamics do not give us any problem. I feel it is very arrogant to suggest that a culture and nation that you are not a part of should change morally to suit your own needs. If you were born and raised in the middle east you may have very different veiws then you do today.

    However I feel it is your duty to stand up against these injustices when they are happening in your culture and nation. I know of the troubles in the UK. So you do have an abligation to do something about this. It's just the referance's to the middle east that I don't understand. I don't think that they give the arguements any vindication because it is not affecting you personally. And by "you" I mean "one", not you personally.

    Their is no doubt groups are being oppressed. That is true for every religion and government, but just because they are being oppressed I do not see it as a reason for other nations and cultures to impose their will and "liberate" them. If women in the middle east want something it is their duty to get it for themselves. If any group wants something they should get it for themselves.

    With all that being said, I agree with Achems Razor statement about your "denunciation and annihilation of your adversary’s platitudes are a site to behold."

  163. Wow!

    I just tuned into these discussions, I almost missed them.

    @ Yavanna: Way to go! Your denunciation and annihilation of your adversary's platitudes are a site to behold.

    I read @ Vlatko,s, response and he is spot on, you cannot reverse all those years of brainwashing by a few paragraphs, they will take their beliefs into the grave with them.

    But keep in mind you-all, it does not matter what they believe, it all came from books that where written by man, not by any make believe God's hand or intervention.

    So it is not even worth the paper they where written on!
    Marvel comics make more sense!

  164. Afly - who said I didn't care - I care a lot! - I say a lot quickly. I am passionate about some things. Sometimes it doesn't come out as gibberish and make me look foolish!

    Vlatko we have a similar upbringing and I too have only ever felt a slight tug towards Buddhism yet I do not consider that a religion - more a way of life and yet I wished all religions shared a tiny portion of it's leanings towards balance, tranquillity, peace and sincerity.

    Oh for a perfect world! Good night!

  165. for not caring you got a lot to say

  166. Hahahah... They made you angry @Yavanna.

    Don't you ever expect to be understood by a religious person (who was indoctrinated since he was 5 years old) exchanging couple of comments on some website.

    That is not the remedy for 20 years of indoctrination. The remedy is the right education for generations and generations to come.

    I had a luck to be brought up without any strong religious influence. And at the age of 25 I guess I was tempted to research what are these religions about. I kicked of by reading the Bible (twice). And like Pen & Teller said in their show: If you want to create an atheist just make him read the Bible.

    So it was. I felt like I read an outdated Jewish-Christian political-military propaganda. Nothing more.

    Than I went on reading the Quran. Same story with some minor add-ons.

    Then I went on reading every significant scripture of the major world religions. Hinduism, Buddhism and their variations and so on. I've also read lots of stuff from random mystics and gurus who compile what they see good in all of these religions and offer that as a new product.

    I found nothing. However I can say that the eastern religions have peaceful concept in them. Especially Buddhism. They don't call to wars, they don't have omnipotent gods and they put emphasis on self-improvement.

  167. Also, you are confusing Law with religion.

  168. @jari

    Women are to be treated equally in Islam. Just because some country doesn't allow to vote doesnt mean women are oppressed. If you want to follow Islam follow what Quran and prophet Mohammad(pbuh) has taught us.Just because some mullah gives a fatwa against women doesn't mean women are suppressed .Again follow Quran and teaching of Prophet Mohammed ( pbuhh).

    Peace to all. May God guide you

  169. Daniyal Khan - I have taken so many attacks in this thread and you are the last straw. I have remained polite and civil to this point - despite the serious nature of my posts and the seriousness of my objections towards your accursed retarded religion. F*** it. You sir are a retard. Allah did not "make" me nor did the fairy god mother. The stork did not bring me and santa claus does not exist either.

    As for you apologetics that are not muslim yet are appeasers and "respect all religions and faiths" for the sake of your own morale fibre (more probably because you don't have enough backbone to say what you feel) do some f***ing research. Stop sticking your a$$ in there air and waiting for it to be juiced up. Just because there IS media bias and propaganda it doesn't mean it is all propaganda or is all untrue. Do you really think all the people shown in video's and documentaries about Islam are actors?! NO they are hate mongering rabid violent a$$holes threatening the lives of people that harbour them from their own countries of origin(usually). Or else bitter and twisted because they were born into less advanced cultures / countries and have huge chips on their shoulders.

    Just go to any muslim news agency. Watch a few Islamic videos for the truth. This isn't western media or propaganda but unadulterated hate filth. From their own agencies. They do not share your moderate views. They wish to assimilate you. Or crush you. Either way their goal is to destroy your culture and heritage and subsume you. YOU ARE EVIL!

    Mostly this isn't even about religion. This is really about sharia. I can just about stand any religion but when it starts to bring real affront to my life then I object. No No NO! No one wants it. It is alien, unacceptable, a supreme injustice upon the fibre of my being. I for one will never allow this putrid vile bronze age filthy law set intrude upon my life.

    No one gives a sh!t about Islam. It is no more, no less retarded as any other religion. Believe santa claus is real. Believe the sky is green for all I care. But don't come screaming to me about your f***ing rights when all you ever wish is to destroy mine. Stick your religion and your sharia where the sun don't shine.

    Yes Hardy this is getting really really really old. If it isn't Xians throwing garbage at us it's this lot. Whenever they cannot argue realistically they saturate a discussion with quotes and scripture as if to put pay to the logic and critical arguments put upon them. When that doesn't work we are accused of being racist child murdering supremacists. When that doesn't work they play the "offended" card. They truly make me sick. All of you religious bigots, fascists and sycophants needs to take a long look at yourselves and break a few mirrors for the liars you are. Spend five minutes reading a book to know your religion is nonsense. Or at the very least climb out of your box for five minutes and look at how absurd your viewpoints are.

    Most of us just want to live out our lives in peace harmony and mutual respect. It is you religious maniacs that bring the evil and the strife - All in the name of "the almighty wish-father"

    Christians. Muslims, Jews or whatever STFU about your ridiculous beliefs. Most of humanity are sick of you. The least you could do is agree with each other but No No No; you would rather kill each other. So much for peace. Stick your gods up your a$$es. You make living a misery and pass it on as a cancer and disease. SCroo the lot of ya!

    Allah Fkbah - Yavanna out...

  170. you guys are all tripping lol :D hahahahahahaha!!!

  171. Sorry for the doublepost, but I had to post this quote from the link Yavanna shared in her last post.

    "I dont subscribe to the idea of allowing women to drive,even though they are allowed to drive in my country,it is not my wish that they be allowed to drive.Islamic scholars should be consulted to give fatwa on the matter,for the benefit of muslims."

    I loled.

  172. This show is getting a bit old, eh, Yavanna?

  173. @ Yavanna

    lol haahhahaha yavanna your sooo funny :D hahahah!!! you doubt islam right??? you dont belive in god aswell?? lol you need to ponder a lot. im just going to cut to the end lol there is only one god!! there are sooo many proofs that he exists!!!! just look around you!!! he created evrything!! you are living because he wills!!! you are blinded beacause you cannot see the truth and your too much into sinning!! i can only show you the way yavanna you have walk towards it..islam teaches you how to live a proper life and how life should be lived!! there are a lot of english people that have reverted into islam. i say reverted because every new born baby is born as a muslim. but depending on the religion of the parents, causes that to change. anyways mate have a good time :) i dont really know you but i hope my lord guides you and he will!!! with his will!!! AMEEN!!! letaz bro lol :D

  174. buck fush
    @ "Islam doesn’t suppress women."

    then tell us why the women are not allowed to vote in saudi arabia... women are not allowed to give testimony in court in saudi arabia.
    tell us why a women who wish to drive a car are not allowed to do so by LAW.

  175. This is funny that people search Islam on website only to slam the religion.Just mind your religions. This is what Quote from the Quran the disbelievers

    1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

    2. I worship not that which ye worship,

    3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

    4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

    5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

    6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

  176. For people you think that Islam oppresses women .FYI more women are converting to Islam than men. This simple point proof that Islam doesn't suppress women. These were the last words of Prophet mohammed ( pbuh).

    O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have right over you. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and comitted helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to commit adultery.

  177. SpeakerofReality

    You have made valid points. We, westerners, tend to criticize and judge from our arrogance whenever we encounter situations that undermine our set of beliefs.

  178. Okay, I will elaborate even though I didn't want to, originally.

    1. There are plenty of womans-rights movements that are either suppressed by the religious-conservative governments or merge with a general revolutionary revolts (-> Iran).

    2. It is obvious that most women don't speak out against the inequality because they don't know different. If you havn't seen the other side of the pond, you aren't able to compare it with your own.

    3. I agree that the woman in the western world has become sexualized and that this is a negative development. Stereotypes have evolved that create inequalities that are similar to the inequalities in countries under islamic rule. Just to name an example: women in Europe earn 20-30% less than men doing the same job.

    4. You cannot compare the naked numbers in this case, a rape in the USA is something different. Women, though oversexualized and somewhat repressed, know their theoretical rights. A fair trial will be held and the man prosecuted.
    Now, what different is rape from a woman being married to a man against her will (-> arranged marriage), not knowing different and therefore not speaking out against it, and then having to obey the dictate of this husband (-> having sex how he wants and when he wants)? I find it hard to tell the difference.

    5. It is fair to say that we have acquired a twisted view of women in the 'west' (pseudo-christian secular states). On the other side, it is more than ignorant to declare the other way as the best.

    Warning to all fundamentalist-believers, do not read further because it's the devil speaking:
    This development may even be part of our cultural evolution (the evolution after the physical, chemical and biological). As animals, this way of living (one man, many women) is quite effective to create many offspring. But since the newest changes of the cultural evolution (medicine, science), this way of living contradicts our newly acquired mindset. Because we know there is no difference of worth between a man and a woman (intelligence has become the prime value, not strength), both should have equal rights.

  179. Atheists have all their mental poles in the right half of s-plane, as demonstrated by the comments above!

  180. Speakerofreality, you have a very narrow mind.

  181. To those who believe the women are oppressed in the Middle East I challenge you to tell me which women have told you these things??? EXACTLY, no-one has, its a fantasy that the media has brought upon and you find it enjoyable to criticize.
    I don't believe women shouldn't be allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia, but please tell me, give one example of a muslim woman that GIVES A SH*T.

    Im sure all of you white men have a lot of respect for women, and thats why you believe it is so VITAL to care of the women of the middle east. You can shut up, because the only thing women are praised for in the white mans world is their PUS*YS.

    Somebody listed up about how many women were killed for stupid reasons, and they are stupid, but there were only 2 or 3 LOL. NOW, lets think, if we compare the number of rapes in the USA vs the number of rapes in the WHOLE of the MIDDLE EAST, we all know that there will be a hell of a lot more in the USA. DONT WE??
    YES WE DOOO. SO SHUT UP YOU FA**OT and fix up your own society before talking about others.

  182. We have alot of Muslim street vendors in NYC. More than often I see them(men and women) kneeling and praying on crowded streets. I don't know much about Islam to have an opinion but from what I see I kinda respect their religion and they certainly seem to have bigger balls than their counterparts, christians and jews.

  183. No I ment that the percentage of women in those countries who believe they actually have rights is very low compared to those who don't. They would participate in these punishments if they could. Faith runs deep.

  184. "Saudi Arabia/Somalia/Iraq – Don’t have alot of women who will stand up for there rights."

    u mean there are fewer percentage of women in those countries compared to the rest of the world?

    I have no religion. And I NEVER compared Islam to other religions.

  185. Jari

    Saudi Arabia/Somalia/Iraq - Don't have alot of women who will stand up for there rights.

    If you want to list atrocities that different religions have commited against different groups of people( women, gays, foreigners, animals, just about any group that isn't the church), we could pretty much be here all day filling our heads with the worst that the history of humanity has to offer.

    No religion is perfect, because the people who follow it arn't.

    But it would be ignorant to suggest that any religion (especially the one that isn't yours) is full of violent whackjobs that have got the whole thing backwords.

    We should focus on the message of peace, love, charity and respect that ALL of the religions preech.

  186. I Love Muhammid

    Greatest boxer ever

  187. Saudi Arabia- doesn't allow women to drive cars. LOL.
    Somalia- women stoned in to death in public for 'adultery'.
    Iraq- girl stoned to death for 'bringing shame on her family'
    USA- a muslim dad rammed over his daughter with his car and killed her because she 'brought shame' by refusing arranged marriage.
    Saudi Arabia- a girl is punished with 80 lashes for BEING gang-raped. The rapists are set free.

    You see, Islam is very pro-women.

  188. Yavanna,

    I'll start by the same quote "what absolute contrived..."...I'll not argue on this point simply because you cannot understand what a person who believes in a religion could feel when you use this style of communication! You cannot understand obviously! you insulted a Prophet, and people, meaning that they are stupid because their minds are locked and indoctrinated! these are not rude words? I am sorry but you don't have any kind of respect otherwise you'd have answered objectively and differently!
    As for respect. You need to learn earn it to earn it!

  189. Souhi lia(r)

    What absolute contrived cr^p. You didn't come here to judge? Yet you openly lie that I started being "harmful" - quote me one word or sentence I have written "pointlessly and freely" attacking anyone here.

    How am I acting like an extremist. Show me where I have used rude words?

    I commented on the documentary. It is Muslims who have consistently attacked me. I have been compared to child killers. I have been labelled as rude, insulting verbally abusive. It has been suggested I cause corruption and had some sort of failed upbringing! Apparently I am an Illuminati mind controlled slave! I have been called hateful and told I have immature feelings. All totally unwarranted ad hominems and insults directed at me because I DARE to shine a light upon your religion.

    Have you ever heard of the idiom "The pot calling the kettle black?"

    As for respect. Respect needs to be earnt it is not a right. I do not give any sort of respect to liars for one thing.

  190. Hi to all !!!

    After reading all the posts I came to the conclusion that everyone has his own opinion, his own choices! People are not stupid! so if we choose to be a Muslim, a Christian or what else, it is our choice and we are free! All religions were respected through centuries, but as the human nature wants it always, all religions (in the broad sense) have their opponents/dissidents! ...all religions have partisans that somehow represent wrongly or badly the rather than judging religions judge people! dont use stereotype expressions! to live in a peaceful world we need to respect each others whatever we are and whatever we believe in!!! we are humans, we are different, everything in us is differently made or built! our insights are diffrents!so just be respectful to everyone! we have choices in eating kinds of food so how it comes for religion,!!!....we have to accept and never forget that the bad, the evil, and the good are everywhere, because we are all humans and we are different! I would loved if the discussion was simply a discussion about facts "question"="answer", without using disrespectful expressions like to harm people in their belief and opinions!
    I didnt came to here to judge! but Yavanna, you started being harmful! that was free and pointless, because no body is obliging you to believe on Islam or in any other religion! you are acting just like any extremist!! and you called the hate (a natural feeling inside every human)of the others that were rude (because you called them with rude words!!!). You might be an Atheist, but I have friends that are Atheists, they never were extremists! we respect each others and we work peacefully! they are full of kindness! so why attacking others because they dont think like you? or because you think they are stupid and indoctrinated?...we all suffers from extremism: extremism of religious Men and extremism of non-religious Men! so what is the solution now?...respect is the solution for a peaceful world! you are free to hate but not free to harm!!!
    With respect.

  191. Hakima - One of the best posts I`ve read in a while.

    Rajput. When you listed what you perceive as the evil countries that you are at Jihad / war with above you forgot to mention your own country; Pakistan. Allies of the USA. You are a hypocrite sir! Deal with your own house before you slander mine.

    You stated in your first post you had read all the previous comments so I will not once again show you where it is written about circumcision. Scroll up!!!

    I`m not familiar with the word "Abbaya" - I presume you mean Hijaab or Burka; the face mask or full body version. Yes let's talk about rights.

    What rights do western countries give to "you?" Well we give you EQUAL rights. There - you heard it here first! If you come to a western country you have as much rights as I do within the bounds of sovereign laws EVEN if you are female! Many many many thousands of Pakistanis flood into my country each year to enjoy the rights we offer. They set up home, have families and go to Mosques. They seem to really enjoy it here. I`m surprised you don't personally know someone who has done this. Perhaps you should speak to them.

    You seem to be in a lot of confusion about laws and "human rights." If I were to go to France I would have to abide by their laws. If that meant I couldn't go about all day wearing a balaclava or as a female wearing a burka then that is the law in France. Whilst I might not personally agree with a law like that I would abide by it because I am a law abiding person and would be there at France's hospitality and good grace. If I were to visit Pakistan it is my understanding that is against the law to drink alcohol in other than prescribed places - I would obey that law.

    As I understand it neither Islam nor sharia forces women to cover up. That is a personal choice often dictated to her by customs, family and local culture in any case.

    It's strange how a Muslim man (I assume you are male?) is getting so offended and upset over France's decision to have their own laws, about a small item of clothing regarded by the French as being part of a disguise. A piece of clothing that YOU aren't forced to wear by the way.

    I offer you the same sort of challenge (albeit a rational and achievable one) as you offer Hakima. You Rajput must dress in a full burka for a week. In your very hot climate lets see how that might change your views about "rights!" Infact let all Muslim men cover themselves completely leaving only a tiny slit to see through and breath through for at least a month (a short time when compared to that of a female from 9 years till death) Come back and post your experiences. Go ahead. Learn the lesson in a hard way.

    Whilst we are still on the subject of rights. Explain to me the rights the 72 virgins will have as your "prize?"

    You know nothing of the word peace. You define it: "Peace mean the world where everyone has rights to live the way they want." yet you live under rules where you have very little freedom OR RIGHTS; especially if you are female. Civilised countries have laws and IF it's citizens abide within them they enjoy rights and freedoms accorded by their decent behaviour within society.

    We have these laws for the exact opposite reason YOU define the word peace. Because NOBODY has the right to do whatever they want. If that were the case we'd have Jeffrey Dahmers running around eating people, rapists and paedophiles going wild etc etc etc. Laws are there to protect society from itself.

    I don't understand why you are so bitter and twisted, so full of hate. You seem very frustrated and mainly because I have my own view points. Have you considered anger management counselling? There is no shame in seeing s shrink when you have problems.


    The status of women in Islam is often the target of attacks in the secular media. The ‘hijaab’ or the Islamic dress is cited by many as an example of the ‘subjugation’ of women under Islamic law. Before we analyze the reasoning behind the religiously mandated ‘hijaab’, let us first study the status of women in societies before the advent of Islam

    1. In the past women were degraded and used as objects of lust

    The following examples from history amply illustrate the fact that the status of women in earlier civilizations was very low to the extent that they were denied basic human dignity:

    a. Babylonian Civilization:

    The women were degraded and were denied all rights under the Babylonian law. If a man murdered a woman, instead of him being punished, his wife was put to death.

    c. Greek Civilization:

    Greek Civilization is considered the most glorious of all ancient civilizations. Under this very ‘glorious’ system, women were deprived of all rights and were looked down upon. In Greek mythology, an ‘imaginary woman’ called ‘Pandora’ is the root cause of misfortune of human beings. The Greeks considered women to be subhuman and inferior to men. Though chastity of women was precious, and women were held in high esteem, the Greeks were later overwhelmed by ego and sexual perversions. Prostitution became a regular practice amongst all classes of Greek society.

    d. Roman Civilization:

    When Roman Civilization was at the zenith of its ‘glory’, a man even had the right to take the life of his wife. Prostitution and nudity were common amongst the Romans.

    e. Egyptian Civilization:

    The Egyptian considered women evil and as a sign of a devil.

    f. Pre-Islamic Arabia:

    Before Islam spread in Arabia, the Arabs looked down upon women and very often when a female child was born, she was buried alive.

    2. Islam uplifted women and gave them equality and expects them to maintain their status.

    Islam uplifted the status of women and granted them their just rights 1400 years ago. Islam expects women to maintain their status.


    People usually only discuss ‘hijaab’ in the context of women. However, in the Glorious Qur’an, Allah (swt) first mentions ‘hijaab’ for men before ‘hijaab’ for the women. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Noor:

    "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do."

    [Al-Qur’an 24:30]

    The moment a man looks at a woman and if any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he should lower his gaze.

    Hijaab for women

    The next verse of Surah Noor, says:

    "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons..."

    [Al-Qur’an 24:31]

    3. Hijaab includes conduct and behaviour among other things

    Complete ‘hijaab’, besides the six criteria of clothing, also includes the moral conduct, behaviour, attitude and intention of the individual. A person only fulfilling the criteria of ‘hijaab’ of the clothes is observing ‘hijaab’ in a limited sense. ‘Hijaab’ of the clothes should be accompanied by ‘hijaab’ of the eyes, ‘hijaab’ of the heart, ‘hijaab’ of thought and ‘hijaab’ of intention. It also includes the way a person walks, the way a person talks, the way he behaves, etc.

    4. Hijaab prevents molestation

    The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

    "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is

    The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.

    5. Example of twin sisters

    Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijaab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijaab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur’an rightly says that hijaab prevents women from being molested.

    6. Capital punishment for the rapists

    Under the Islamic shariah, a man convicted of having raped a woman, is given capital punishment. Many are astonished at this ‘harsh’ sentence. Some even say that Islam is a ruthless, barbaric religion! I have asked a simple question to hundreds of non-Muslim men. Suppose, God forbid, someone rapes your wife, your mother or your sister. You are made the judge and the rapist is brought in front of you. What punishment would you give him? All of them said they would put him to death. Some went to the extent of saying they would torture him to death. To them I ask, if someone rapes your wife or your mother you want to put him to death. But if the same crime is committed on somebody else’s wife or daughter you say capital punishment is barbaric. Why should there be double standards?

    7. Western society falsely claims to have uplifted women

    Western talk of women’s liberalization is nothing but a disguised form of exploitation of her body, degradation of her soul, and deprivation of her honour. Western society claims to have ‘uplifted’ women. On the contrary it has actually degraded them to the status of concubines, mistresses and society butterflies who are mere tools in the hands of pleasure seekers and sex marketers, hidden behind the colorful screen of ‘art’ and ‘culture’.

    8. USA has one of the highest rates of rape

    United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in U.S.A alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years.

    Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijaab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijaab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?

    9. Implementation of Islamic Shariah will reduce the rate of rapes

    Naturally as soon as Islamic Shariah is implemented positive results will be inevitable. If Islamic Shariah is implemented in any part of the world, whether it is America or Europe, society will breathe easier. Hijaab does not degrade a woman but uplifts a woman and protects her modesty and chastity.

  193. The following points enumerate the reasons why polyandry is prohibited in Islam:

    1. If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.

    2. Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.

    3. Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.

    4. A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.

    The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry.

  194. Islam does allowing marrying four women but doesnt mean you ll have to marry 4. I cant think of a single muslim of all i know that has more than 1 wife where as just check the status in US i think most of them marry at least twice.

  195. @Yavanna Yes do show me where in the Quran it is written to circumcised girls? Do mention the surah and Aayat no. And what rights are your so called "Civilized Western World" is giving to muslims. In France why they discriminate a muslim girl when she wears Abbaya. Is not she a human? Is she have no right to choose what to wear and what not? And if you dont believe in God, hell or heaven, then it is the worst form any human can got. How long would you live in this world? 100 years or +10 years more at maximum. Just after then you will come to know the reality. Its better to understand now before its too late. And is heaven is just about 72 virgins? its about success Mr. The fight between Sheetan and Adam. And it is the prize a human will get after defeating Sheetan.

    And i know what peace mean. Peace mean the world where everyone has rights to live the way they want. Peace does not mean to submit in the face of power. You people are killing around the world just because you have better armies, got technology to kill as many women and children and get away. And still propagating that see we are the champs of democracy. If this is the peace then we dont want it. If we can defeat mighty USSR then we can defeat any force which is interfering in our lands. And you will see it in your life.

    And @Hakima i dont know what u r and where u are from. One advice.. do marry 4 men. and after one week post ur experience here. Its a challenge to you. Some laws are of nature and are made by Allah. If a human wants to change them then it always invite disaster. Go ahead. learn the lesson in a hard way.

  196. i want to see a world where women and children especially girls have rights. how come a muslim woman cant have four husbands? yet a man can have four wives? this isnt fair.
    for a beter world go visit 'summerhill' an alternative school in leiston suffolk. or go visit the native american hopi or pima. indigenous peoples have been oppressed by monotheistic religions

  197. Its hard to put into words what i want to say. there are left wing and right wing muslims.the right wing argue for sharia law, force women to cover up and stay at home and take our rights away, and want a muslim world. The left wing want a modern muslimviewpoint, want a secular state because only with a secular state can all and no religions be tolerated. the problem with religions is they think their way is the only true way and so many want to kill in the name of their religion. then we have capitalism where they worship money and oil is money so they join forces with right wing muslims to destabilise secular states in middle east ie to divide and rule so the west can grab the oil. right wing fundamentalist muslims are being used. but they want to be used because they want to get power and force shariah on us all. i refuse to wear a veil i want to drive my car i want to work and study unhindered. but i dont want to support noecon imperailists either or feel forced to be sexy in the way the west tries to sell it, which is degrading, but thats capitalism for you. its just like the cold war if you criticise the west you get blamed for supporting the terrorists, if you criticise the islamists you get criticised for supporting west imperialism.

  198. Yes Rajput I feel very bad for what is happening in the Middle east - that has got nothing to do with my feelings about your "religion of peace."

    What do I know about Islam? More than I want to know to be honest and enough to know it's about as contradictory and insane as all the other religions. I haven't copy pasted anything from an African tribal ritual here. I have cut and pasted some quotes from YOUR Qu'ran and holy books both here and on other documentary discussions.

    I am aware that Jihad means "struggle." However in modern terms it seems a better translation is "chip on your shoulder."

    You go on to say... If people like 'ME' don’t respect YOUR rights then YOU fight with US to take YOUR rights, and btw Muslims are most peaceful - are you taking the p1ss Rajput? Do you even know what the word peaceful means? Are you saying there is some "peaceful" way to fight? What rights are you going on about in any case? The right to force other people to accept your beliefs and rule sets? Sounds like it to me. Believe whatever you want THAT is your right. I will be the last person to deny you that right but be prepared for people "like me" to shine a torch upon your belief systems when it is required. Especially when I am denigrated for having tried to bring the matter for open and reasonable debate. Every damned religion affects all of us in one way or another that's what is so putrid.

    Your last paragraph - excellent! But don't put me in the same box as the crazy psychopaths that run the countries you mentioned. And I`ll go to "your" hell willingly because I will have lived a life - not just waited for death with relish because some old schizophrenic child rapist told me I would get 72 virgins. Because you see I also do not believe in fairy stories. There is no hell. There is no heaven. Now please go and live your life be happy and peaceful and stop worrying about such nonsense!

  199. I have read the comments above.. really sorry for some people like @Yavanna. He is so apologetic when talking about Iraq & Afghanistan. The words like may be some atrocities, I don't know the truth.. What a logic? We are watching on TV daily and u don't know the truth?

    And you know about Muhammad (PBUH). You are commenting on 1400 years ago as you were sitting there back then? What do you know about Islam? Your knowledge is zero Mr. I am from Pakistan 2nd largest Muslim population. No girl has ever been circumcised here. How can u copy paste an African tribal tradition to whole Islamic world. 1.2 billion Muslims. And yes we Muslims are taught by our religion for Jihad. Jihad means struggle. Fighting for our right. If people like you don't respect other rights then we fight with u to take our rights. And btw Muslims are most peaceful.

    All atrocities of world wars, atomic bombs, bombing other countries, interfering other countries, killing women and children, occupying other's land and countless other evils are all committed by USA, Israel, India, Japan, Germany, UK, Russia, Serbia. All are non Muslims. Can u deny it? And in Quran Allah has told us about people like u. That "A very hard time is waiting for them in Hell".

  200. "Whoever encounters a jewel but knows not the distinguishing characteristics of gems may think it to be part of a fossilized coke bottle and throw it away. There is a famous diamond in Istanbul, perhaps one of the biggest and most valuable diamonds in the world. That diamond was originally found in a dustbin by a street sweeper. He put it in his pocket and brought it to a spoon-maker he knew. The spoon-maker saw that it could be valuable, so he offered the street sweeper a wooden spoon in exchange for the diamond. The street-sweeper was very happy with the trade, as, in those days it was a sign of distinction to carry a spoon in one's belt-and to always be prepared in case rice or soup was served.

    Then the spoon-maker took the diamond to a jeweler, who paid him a lot of money for it. The jeweler polished it and notified the Vizier about the existence of an extraordinary diamond. The Vizier bought it for a fortune and presented it to the Sultan, who had never seen its like. But to the street-sweeper its worth was equivalent only to one wooden spoon."

  201. Nadia

    Please do not feel sorry for me, pity me and definitely don't pray for me! If you want me to feel in any way better about myself then please take in some of what I have said. Try to learn how an "outsider" feels about your "true religion" and put yourself in their shoes. I would take much joy from your having at least tried to see any other view than what has been blasted into you from birth.

    Look at it all through another's eyes. I try to do this regarding Islam and other religions and I really appreciate how hard it is to do that. Westerners are accused of being mind controlled by media and that may be to a certain extent true; but religious people are indoctrinated from birth and in particular Muslims are told they will be apostate and killed if they think freely and question a book.

    I must make one thing absolutely clear here. I have been extremely polite throughout this discussion. I have taken much time to study the matters concerned. I have not at one time been RUDE to anyone personally.

    I apparently "use inappropriate language towards Islam." Apparently I am insulting and offend Muslims for not according some respect to their religion. Do you have any idea how stupid this concept sounds to me? Why should ANY religion deserve or even DEMAND respect? So I will continue to enjoy my ability for free thinking and better still free speech and say what the hell I like regarding Islam.

    If you think what I have said here is bad you should try reading some of what I`ve written about Christianity and Catholicism! Notice also I`m the only non Muslim here debating with you. One reason is that people are too politically correct to do. I can think of other reasons too but this post is already over long.

    Now one thing you have said is true. Many of the Muslims here on this discussion have made nice polite replies and I appreciate that. You on the other hand have become frustrated and resorted to shouting (caps lock is considered rude) You have started to attack me personally. You've called me rude, insulting verbally abusive and now you are suggesting I cause corruption and had some sort of failed upbringing!

    Nadia I`m sure you are a sweet and gentle person and I hold no grudge here. I just ask please don't waste a moment of your precious life praying for me. Instead go out and have some fun. Enjoy your life and stop worrying about imaginary friends.


  203. YAVANNA

    First of all, english is not my first language and i think im actually doing quite well, regardless of the small mistakes.

    second of all, im not going to lower myself to your level in insulting you, the very fact that you use inappropriate language towards Islam emphasises that you obviously feel frustrated.
    I actually feel very sorry for you, like i said,insult as much as you like but deep in my heart i know islam is the true religion and i will pray for you to find the right way.

    I hope you find peace in yourself, because obviously there is allot of anger inside you.

    I will pray for you sister!


    1. Ah! seriously?!! U nailed it right here!! i could not stop laughing... read the whole comments... and i truly feel the end of time coming... :)

      way to go sis!! **hats off to ya**

  204. Nadia

    Nagh! Slander means there is a degree of mistruth. Nothing I have said is inaccurate. Even so I am talking about your prophet (that is the correct spelling by the way) Not Islam. But the more I delve into the matter ; Muhammed seems to be your God even though he repeatedly asked not to be accorded god-head status.

    Firstly why shouldn't I slant your religion; I have every right to. It is ridiculous to the extreme and with my dying breath I will continue to slant it.

    Nadia I am sure if we ever met I would find you likeable and enjoyable company. But you cannot enforce your rule set on everyone - this is not sharia. People have every right to disrespect and insult your religion. And I will continue to do so whole heartedly.

    Islam does not mean peace. Read your retarded so called holy book then comment. And before you retort; just for one second question that even in one tiny way: if the Qu'ran may be incorrect in the tiniest way - you are infidel, an apostate and should be killed.

    I could give you a 100 reasons why the Qu'ran is corrupt wrong, insignificant, immoral and down right evil. But would you consider just one reason? No. You are not allowed. It is even forbidden to think of the possibility of questioning it's veracity.

    Peace to you also!

    But please don't consider that notion in any way "holy" OR "holy book" derived peace. I am a human being as are you. Please take your head out of ancient scripture and join the human race. I implore you.

  205. can i also add to my muslim brother that my mother is 100% english and is a fantastic muslim!!!

    we shouldnt judge people just because of where they are from...

  206. Urm, your talking about thousands of years ago, profit mohammed waited for Aisha to become a woman and in them days thats when a female starts her period.......
    please dont slander my religion, i think if you dont have nothing nice to say, dont say it at all.

    I think people need to remember....muslims and non-muslims, islam means peace, so please remember that when you are have discussions on here.

    peace to everyone....

  207. Waqas. Sorry it seems to offend you that I`m English and feel that 6 year old children should not be married off - either with the consent of her parents or not. Neither should they be "consummated at age of nine. Truth is that Aisha's father objected to Muhammed when he first "requested" his daughter but was later persuaded and convinced. Maybe he wanted to continue to live. Sahih Bukhari 7.18.

    As for your other comments after the West's rape and murder because of oil. I wont argue that. Because I do not know the truth. I, like many westerners actively object to the occupation of middle eastern countries and the ongoing war. I have no doubt that some atrocities have been committed. Such is human nature at times of war.

    However that has nothing to do with this video. You are just spreading anti western propaganda and hate as far as I can see it. And now your saying you haven't even watched the video! Go watch it then discuss it!

    Nothing you have said in any case makes sense in relation to what I have said previously. Say what you like about the west or it's various religions. At least none have put a god-head on a beast.

  208. I did not see video, because I know the history of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, English and European History.
    The Christians are the most barbaric the world has ever known and they deserve what Israel is doing to them. All the Israeli nukes are meant for Europe and not Muslim Countries.

  209. I did not see the video, i was more interested in the comments. It is amazing we have a defender of Aisha who happens to be English, very concerned of this girl who got married with the consent of her mother and father, and then became one of the best teacher and scholar and always praised her husband the Prophet (pbuh) and was also very jealous of Prophet first wife Khadija who was 15 years older than Prophet and dead. This Prophet chastise the ignorant pre-islamic Arabs who use to bury their female Infant babies alive. He stopped this practice, and enforced equal rights for men and women. But to this modern days the Indians (India) still kill their female babies, during pregnancies or at birth, 1 million/year and the Indian government overlooks. I am sure the English defender of Aisha knows this, but hey they are Hindus and not Muslims, because its Muslims that sit on the vast quantities of oil and other resources that UK and USA wants. Then what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. In Iraq the defender of Aisha and her Government along with USA imposed sanction and no fly zone and thus killed 500,000 children much younger than Aisha, who died of malnourishment and unavailability of medicine and the Gallant and most Humane Khazar Madam Albright said it was worth killing those babies, that were much younger than Aisha. Well Aisha felt pain only once as would any virgin, but the pain and suffering of 500,000 babies of Iraq is not worth mentioning because those criminal babies were sitting on huge oil field and not to mention the whole city made of gold and silver that lies under the Euphrates buried. Then the defender of Aisha and her Government and USA attack Afghanistan and Iraq on fake and cooked up charges, all the false evidence originated in London, and here they humanely Massacred 1.2 Million Iraqis, majority of women and children. The defender of Aisha's Govt and their puppet raped young boys and girls, they kidnapped 80,000 young girls and female babies that today are sitting in India's brothel. Same amount of young females are missing from Afghanistan. They target young boys and girls as a policy of their Gallant Humanity, well they had a good teacher, Israeli of course. The theory is kill the baby before they become of age. The Humanely civilized world of the defender of Aisha massacred 8+ millions Muslims during Bush/Clinton/Bush and Blair era. Majority of them Lil kids, why? Oh they are barbaric and they are Muslims sitting on oil resources and other precious metals and the future TAPI pipe line. Hey! nice going English woman.

  210. This documentary made me cry..........I feel that i have more respect and understanding now towards profit Mohammed (peace be upon him). Not long ago i was confused and even decided to leave Islam as i was reading information from online sources about profit mohammed which was totally negative and made me so upset i lost my faith because of these things that i had read. After watching this documentary, i not only feel guilt but also very disgusted that i had ever thought about any negative thoughts towards profit mohammed. Inshallah whenever i forget about myself, who i am and what i believe in, i will always remember this documentary and i will inshallah look more deeply into organised support groups that wont let me stray, inshallah...
    thank you sooo much for posting this documentary.

  211. Before Islam Kaba in meka was a store house for pagan Gods religions that existed then! In the kaba there where many stone gods. Interesting one of those stone gods name was Allah (the Mon god)! Think for your self...

  212. @ Baba

    it says "By the way I’m a Jehovah witness and our faith is based upon the bible and not later human tradition and philosophies like Christmas and worshipping holy idols and buildings like in Meka etc. 5MO 5:8-10."

    Who built 'Meka'? A Jew? A Christian? A Muslim? All of the above? or none of the above?

  213. @ Yavanna

    She says "Maybe it’s true that he improved women’s circumstances at that period of time but of course no mention of female circumcision for one thing. Whilst Islam may have worked 1400 years ago it was a primitive time. "

    Most people know that this is an African phenomenon, not associated with the Middle East.

  214. Quality of the film and sound ...perfect. It didn't feel like nearly 2 hours, which proves how interesting it was for me. I enjoyed looking at modern Islam from a US point of view, intertwined with the history of the Messenger of Allah. I feel the producers managed to fulfil this technique sucessfully. I have encouraged my students to watch this documentary. I feel it was unbiased to the realities of the issue of revenge during warfare and breach of contract, there was nothing to hide. I'm sure if you look at the consititution of the US, with particular regard to States that still exercise 'death row' as a punishment for 'breaching' the agreement between citizen and the state that you will not harm others by unlawful killing, you will find the principles the same.

    I have a driver whose parents were married at the age of 12. I doubt his father now at the age of 60 will agree with the labelling of 'paedophile'. we should be mindful when using such terms.

    All in all, this was not aimed to convert people, but to give us an insight into the history of a man. Its purpose I believe was to show how people face obstacles in life, and in cases life threatening, but do not let go of their morals or beliefs regardless of the pressure.


  215. Dear Mr Michael Schwartz:
    please take the time to correct the term " founder".
    Mohammad"pbuh" was not the founder,he was the "messenger" of ALLAH.There is an infinite difference in meanings, which can be extremely falsely informative.

    thank you
    concerned Muslim

  216. Average at best and even then - only from a sycophantic muslim viewpoint

  217. so what about the documentary, good or not?

  218. Exactly ask Catholic! not a real Christian. Mathews 24:4-14.
    Jesus was a real practising Jew on that time, no doubt about it! He was the messiah that was promised for Jews but they denied him, because they expected a worrier that would slaughter the Rom. they wanted a man of violences!

  219. Saif - do what I do when approached by a JW - tell them you're Jewish and back off slowly!

    PS you should direct your questions to a Catholic mostly - and I`d like to see the answers to those questions too.

  220. isaiah 29:12) please read chapters before and after and you will understand.
    song of solomon 5:16) solomon talks about how a good friend is. my name means “big mountain” and if somewhere i read big mountain then it must be about me?
    john) John 15:26-27 the helper is going to witness about Jesus and his words! and it is comming soon not 600 years after. please read john 14:17 he talks about the holy ghost jehovas spirit and Paulus (Saul)act of apostles 9:1-43. which helped to unite the apostles. please read “the act of apostles” 2:3-4 and 33.

    answers to your questions:
    1- Nowhere, according to the bible he is the son of god. like others could be like. Mathews 3:17 john 5:19-20 and 35.
    2- Nowhere, He said that only god deserve worship!
    3- Nowhere!
    4- Adam did the first sin. I dont understand u question?
    5- Nowhere, he prayed to god his heavenly father!
    6- Nowhere, the word was jesus but he is not god. just god like. john 1:1-3 and 14.
    7- Nowhere. trinity its later Christian philosophy.
    8- we don,t pray like that!
    By the way I’m a Jehovah witness and our faith is based upon the bible and not later human tradition and philosophies like Christmas and worshipping holy idols and buildings like in Meka etc. 5MO 5:8-10.
    u can take a look here:
    as u can see all Christians are not real Christians.
    Thank you

  221. sorry, it says awaiting moderation?

  222. I have comment your questions, but the system says waiting for monitoring?

  223. isaiah 29:12) please read chapters before and after and you will understand.
    song of solomon 5:16) solomon talks about how a good friend is. my name means “big mountain” and if somewhere i read big mountain then it must be about me?
    john) John 15:26-27 the helper is going to witness about Jesus and his words! and it is comming soon not 600 years after. please read john 14:17 he talks about the holy ghost jehovas spirit and Paulus (Saul)act of apostles 9:1-43. which helped to unite the apostles. please read “the act of apostles” 2:3-4 and 33.

    answers to your questions:
    1- Nowhere, according to the bible he is the son of god. like others could be like. Mathews 3:17 john 5:19-20 and 35.
    2- Nowhere, He said that only god deserve worship!
    3- Nowhere!
    4- Adam did the first sin. I dont understand u question?
    5- Nowhere, he prayed to god his heavenly father!
    6- Nowhere, the word was jesus but he is not god. just god like. john 1:1-3 and 14.
    7- Nowhere. trinity its later Christian philosophy.
    8- we don,t pray like that!
    By the way I’m a Jehovah witness and our faith is based upon the bible and not later human tradition and philosophies like Christmas and worshipping holy idols and buildings like in Meka etc. 5MO 5:8-10.

    as u can see all Christians are not real Christians.
    Thank you

  224. Saif

    Thanks for your considered responses. I am very happy for you that you have found what you needed in Islam to provide contentment and life's meaning. At the same time I'm a little sad. You are clearly a well educated person and such a person's energies are better spent than on interpretation of such superstitious nonsense.

    "Please, go investigate Islam well."

    I have. And in debates with Muslims it has become obvious that to know it fully demands a life's dedication to that task - and that is NOT a life. However I am quite capable of reading translations and well researched essays. One point I would make is if a "God" wanted people to understand his wishes he would at least make them plain enough for all people to understand, not by necessity be fluent in Arabic and have several PhDs in the subject matter. The same could also be said about the other religions and their written languages'.

    Furthermore the difficulty people have with discussing any theist issue it not just the nuances of which particular holy book they read, but also which version, which translation and this trickles down to the individual interpretations of the person you are in conversation with.

    I recently spent the required seven hours watching "The Arrivals" which has given me a better understanding of the mainstream Muslim mind set - at least now I know why I am being labelled a Illuminati Mind controlled moral deviant!

    Anyway, you argue the definition of "paedophile." Pointless really. Would you prefer I call him a child rapist? We know what is meant and to indulge in word play is childish. In any case your definition applies perfectly well.

    What are the essential features of pedophilia.?
    Professors of psychiatry, Harold I.Kaplan MD and Benjamin J.Sadock MD. of New York University Medical School states the essential features to diagnose pedophilia are:

    1.Identification with and narcissistic investment in immature sexual objects.

    Muhammad's infatuation and relationship with Aisha fits this criterion. And Mohammad was vain too - he liked to use perfume and dye his hair (even as an old man).

    2. Control, domination and seduction of children.

    A slight recalcitrance on the part of his wives was met by intolerant threats like: "if he (Muhammad) divorce you, (Allah) will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins." [K 66.5]

    3. Sexual activity with children is preferential and occur repeatedly.

    Aisha was ever present, right up to his last fatal breath and he preferred spending his nights with her. Aisha became Muhammad's favorites wife. And the sexuality in the relationship was predominant. [Sahih Bukhari 1.270,3:36,7:6,3:148,3:149,3:150,7:142,IbnSa'd 1pg165]

    You go on to make 5 arguments which I will answer:

    1) The majority of evidence is that Aisha was 6 when married and said marriage was consummated at the age of 9. The fact that muslim scholars have decided to re interpret their holy books and cherry pick the bit that suits them is the oldest trick in the book.

    What is "sick" is that Muhammad had started to dream of a union with Aisha already when she was 4-5 years old: "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you...(and) I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen." He was to use a similar tactic when he wanted to marry his step son's wife.

    2) Old enough to bleed; old enough to breed? This point deserves no further discussion. A dangerous fallacy at best and a primitive disgusting argument.

    3) Utter rubbish. Produce evidence of this miraculous argument of reverse evolution.

    4) I don't know where you got this 'fact' from. However just as I reserve the right to be misinformed about Islam - as do you in this regard. I am a retired British police officer with legal qualifications up to degree level. I can assure you that British Law is made up of what is known as common law and statutory law. Common law is based upon ancient Roman laws which as you might imagine pre-existed beyond 100 years and stated that the legal age of consent for both males and females was 14. The earliest Statutory law on legal consent for sex in British law is dated at 1857 whereby the age was changed from 14 to 16. More than 100 years ago obviously. I would be very interested in your source for your 10 year old "fact" as I have indeed as you suggested done much googling.
    Not one hit I`m afraid. Many thousands of hits on "Was Muhammed a paedophile." however so I would ask you to do the same.

    5) Besides committing the "tu quoque" fallacy, this defense misses the point of the criticism against Muhammad. First, there is no real historical data reporting the age of Mary when she married Joseph. Secondly We must not forget that thirteen years old is very different from nine years old. Nine-year-old girls typically haven’t reached menses. In a best case scenario, a girl that young may have entered the beginning stages of puberty. A thirteen-year-old girl, on the other hand, may be coming to the end of puberty. Thus, even if we grant a young age for Mary, there would still be a world of difference between her and Aisha. And more's to the point I would argue "so what"? If Mary had been 9 and pregnant it does not detract from the discussion about Muhammed one iota.

    Nevertheless, Muslims are too hasty in dismissing Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha. We can’t simply ignore a prophet’s marriage to a nine-year-old girl. Muslims view Muhammad as the highest example of a moral life, but his marriage to Aisha conflicts with that view. If they want to put Muhammad forward as the standard of morality, Muslims need to come to terms with the many questionable things Muhammad did, as well as the awful impact of these actions.

    There is a simple, but highly explicit, way to evaluate the importance of Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha. We must begin by trying to get a mental picture of a morally perfect man. For Muslims, this will include all the things they have been taught about Muhammad. According to their picture, he is kind, generous, patient, humble, and trustworthy. He protects orphans and widows, endures persecution, helps the needy, and promotes justice. He prays faithfully, fasts regularly, and obeys God in everything. He is loyal to his friends and patient with his enemies. He never gives in when tempted with evil. Now we must picture that same man in a room with an innocent little girl. He takes away her doll, climbs on top of her, and puts his penis inside her. She doesn’t know what is happening because she is too young to know much about sex. Frightened and confused, she cries because of the pain and bleeds on her bed, but she tries to remain quiet out of respect for her new husband, who, in return, endangers her life.

    If a person is able to keep the same vision of moral perfection throughout that description, he may have the faith necessary to be a Muslim. But if his vision of the perfect man is at odds with what Muhammad did on numerous occasions, he will need to look elsewhere for an ideal human being.

    Moving on to your other points. In particular to your response to my comment "Perhaps the genital mutilation has something to do with that anyway. And in any case we wouldn’t want women to enjoy sex now would we?"

    I think you might imagine by now I have a real problem with sexually related crimes committed against children and even more with the mutilation of children's sexual organs. There is simply no excuse you can come up with that will satisfy.
    This goes for any religion of cultural "practice." It is evil pure and simple.

    Islamic Law on Female Circumcision:

    Nuh Hah Mim Keller's Translation

    Arabic Original

    e4.3 Circumcision is obligatory (O: for both men and women. For men it consists of removing the prepuce from the penis, and for women, removing the prepuce (Ar. Bazr) of the clitoris (A: Hanbalis hold that circumcision of women is not obligatory but sunna, while Hanafis consider it a mere courtesy to the husband.)"

    What the Arabic actually says is:

    Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female)
    by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male,
    but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris.


    How does the removal of a woman's clitoris and in some cases removal of labia help a woman appreciate and enjoy sex in a better way? I feel certain that those females in the world without mutilated genitalia would argue this better than I and to argue for it on that basis is surely the ultimate expression of primitive and savage stupidity!

    I note however you entirely dodged my point about this instead responding that Muhammed said that women should be stimulated before sex. Allow me to postulate upon the reasons for him saying that. When a woman is stimulated her genitalia becomes lubricated which makes it easier for a dirty old man (in this case) to insert his adult member into a prepubescent female child. Muhammed apparently went on to assert that a female should be brought to orgasm. This would seem to concur with the other myths propounded by the Qu'ran "science" regarding how pregnancy is brought about.

    It could have been that Muhammed genuinely liked his many females to enjoy sex. I wont argue that - by all accounts he was a real stud with a voracious appetite. And he probably had (other) good qualities too.


    "It’s a matter of logic fallacy to hate all religions because not all religions are the same!"

    No two apples are the same - but they are still apples. In my opinion and that of many others to many extents all religions are the same. They all say they are the true one. They all mind control their masses and orthodox versions try to keep them in the bronze age with ancient books and superstitions. Religions have been the main causes of wars and other great evils perpetrated in their names throughout history. Their so called wisdoms and sciences all go towards poisoning the well of knowledge and retarding mankind.

    Hate is the best adjective to use when describing religions - it's all they deserve and all they'll get from me. You might consider that to be immature (like a 9 year old you mean?) that's your prerogative.

    Religions are the ultimate example of a logic fallacy and whilst atheists and agnostics might disagree on some points and issues we don't all say we know the truth. We don't hate each other for those differing views. We discuss these freely and often change our understanding of reality based upon examination and critical thinking. But Muslims aren't allowed to do that. With matters of faith, Sunni scholars have agreed that if a Muslim denies something that is an irrefutable part of Islam that person will be excommunicated. If you say that an apostate should live - then you are an infidel yourself for example. Believe or die huh?

    The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."

    — Stephen W. Hawking


  225. @ Baba

    I've investigated Christianity very well and actually I collected a bunch of questions that I couldn't find answer for them even by Priests or Clerics!

    I wish you manage to answer them:

    1-Where in the bible did Jesus claim to be god?
    2-Where in the bible did Jesus ask to be worshiped?
    3-Where did Jesus say I am God Manifested in flesh?
    4-Where did Jesus mention the original sin?
    5-Where did Jesus say I am the God the Son?
    6-Where did Jesus say that I am God the Word?
    7-Where did Jesus say I am the Second God in Trinity?
    8-How your prayer in the church is 'drawing cross on your chest' while Jesus (pbuh) never practiced this kind of prayer?

    Please, friend, go investigate Islam well.
    Thank you

  226. @ Baba

    I can't deny that Jesus (pbuh) is a perfect man, actually, as a Muslim, I have to believe in him, as a PROPHET AND MESSENGER of Allah (God). We, Muslims, also believe in all previous messengers of Allah, but mainly we believe that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last messenger of Allah.

    I can tell you that Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned in Bible!

    Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesied in the book of Isaiah:

    It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:
    "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

    When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:

    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

    "Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

    "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

    In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarly im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.

    Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:
    "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

    "Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.

    Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

    Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Spirit. They fail to realise that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

  227. The perfect man is Jesus Gods true messiah. Just read about him and decide for your self! Jesus warned that there will be false prophets after him. those who reads Koran in Arabic and does not understand what they are reading, read Bible New testament and see the true gods (jahve) prophet. Catholicism, orthodox,juds, Islam and other religions are all false religion that miss leading entire world and that why the world looks like it does. There is no hell and heaven. Read the bible and see! Even Mohammed cont'd deny Jesus!

  228. @ Yavanna

    "Think outside the box"
    Thanks for the advice, I already did, I say it back to you.
    I've gone through a lot of investigations about Islam, I've also gone through investigations about other different religions, and I've read many books about Atheism, 'The God delusion' for example. They all were leading me to decide that Islam is the right true religion to follow. Atheism failed to make me stable, I've never felt the inner peace like now being a Muslim, Atheism kept me lost and failed to answer many questions in my mind, for example, why we are here on earth? what's the purpose of this life? it's hard to believe that a sophisticated thing like life has no purpose!

    Please, go investigate Islam well.
    Thank you

  229. @ Yavanna

    A Pedophile is term used to describe a person who has an obvious CONSTANT sexual tendency to children which is not applicable on Muhammad (pbuh).

    To clear out this point more for you:
    1- The age of Aysha when she was married to Muhammad (pbuh) is a matter of disputation between Muslim clerics, the majority of them agree that Aysha was 12 or 13 when Muhammad (pbuh) married her.
    2- It's stated in hadith books (Bukhari & Muslim) that Aysha was mature enough for marriage (she got Menstruation).
    3- Considering the difference between world 1400 years ago and now, it is know that girls got mature at younger age in older times than now.
    4- The British law 100 years ago, for example, was allowing the marriage of girls with 10 YEAR OLD, go google it!
    5- Mary (pbuh) was engaged to Joseph when she was 12 year old and she was pregnant Jesus (pbuh) when she was 13, as the Bible stated.

    So, the claim that Muhammad (pbuh) was a pedophile is a totally wrong statement.

    I don't know from where you got the idea that Islam doesn't want the woman to enjoy having sex (I'm talking about sex in the right way, marriage, according to Islam)?!
    You should make much investigations about this issue, however, I can help you a little bit. For example, Muhammad (pbuh) urges the husband to have a foreplay with his wife before having sex with her. He told us that this is an important thing to do with the wife in advance.
    He (pbuh) also ordered the Husband not to quit the intercourse until his Wife orgasms! (on the contrary of your impression indeed). He (pbuh) ordered the Husband not to have sex with his wife when she got Menstruation. It's also forbidden in Islam to have an anal sex with the wife.

    The male and female water thing is not mentioned in Qur'an BTW, obviously you act stereotypically as most people who don't know Islam well.
    It's a matter of logic fallacy to hate all religions because not all religions are the same! It's like saying Atheists and Agnostics are the same people. Moreover, HATE, is immature feeling indeed.

  230. One society's mind control is another society's religion. As for the booby displaying issue, yes very civilised and free indeed. Newsflash they are natural and all women have them! They arent nasty or "immoral". Sex with children is. However spiritually you try to dress it up.

    Impossible to discuss or compare the number of rapes between east and west (I say east and west for simplicity of argument) as the "west" record allegations of such, investigate and prosecute those crimes. Difficult for the east to record rapes when under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses. All that aside I cant remember a single case where a western victim was LEGALLY murdered (killed for honour purposes) or forced to marry her rapist.

    As for the rest of the point regarding crime / murder rates I cannot comment. Assuming you are correct in this statement I might guess that it's more a deterrent if being caught means you will be beheaded or have a hand chopped off. It would certainly "cut" down on recidivism. A brutal anti-crime regime to be sure but obviously one which works.

  231. I guess intellectual bozo and yavanna have been brainwashed by the illuminati that they think showing a naked woman is womens right u live in an even sicker world thanwot our ancestors lived in carry in watching ur beyonce jay z and all the other devil worshippers and make sure they completly mind control u into thinking hey it's ok for a woman to show her tits and a man to show his tat after all it progress oh sorry not progress I meant the modern age no wonder the rates of rape and crime and murder is on the up after all this is the civilised world for people like bozo and yavanna carry on being brainwashed by the system they just making carbon Copys of what they show on the media congratulations on living in a civilised and modern world because sex money and status is all ur looking for

  232. Absolutely Layla, those priests are equally sick. And yes so your prophet lived in a sick society - so that makes it all ok...

  233. The tag of pedophile is a name for men who have an abnormal desire for sexual intercourse with children. Prophet Muhammad,peace be upon him, lived in a society where marriage to a child was not unusual also his child bride was married to Prophet Muhammad by her father. His child bride later became an islamic scholar benefitting the great religion of Islaam by narrating many hadeeths--statements, actions, and approvals of Prophet Muhammad. So marriage to such an astute young child is not problem for the muslims whatsoever, and it served the religion of Islaam.

    Pedophilia is a term more appropriately used for those priests we keep hearing about.

  234. Hi Sarf

    I retract:

    "That the gender of babies is determined by which partner orgasmed first. Maybe that’s why the practice of slicing off young girl’s clitoris and labials."

    I definitely read it somewhere by having spent quite a few very frustrating hours trying to find it have come up empty. It could well have been a misinterpretation of the male Vs female `water` battle - a qu'ran quote that I have come across all day. In any case that's almost as funny and thank you for putting me straight on that. Perhaps the genital mutilation has something to do with that anyway. And in any case we wouldn't want women to enjoy sex now would we?

    As for the assumption that I hate your prophet, well he has been dead for centuries and to say so would be puerile. Let's just say I hate all religions and paedophiles. I make no apologies for that. That doesn't mean I hate muslims or whoever else that believes their particular brand.

    I stand by all my other comments - especially about the bias. If this person was supposed to be the perfect human being that you would aspire to be then perhaps you need to examine your superman a little better. Think outside the box instead of believing the fairy story of this well biographed person.

  235. @ yavanna

    you hardly can hide your hate to Muhammad (pbuh)!

    I don't know from where you got your information but obviously most of them are wrong or twisted. There is no mentioning for a such a way to determine a gender of babe in Islam, it was said that if the man water overcomes the female water then the babe may be a boy and vice viscera, not the way you stated it!

    Finally, the documentary is really fair enough, the video showed different persons with different backgrounds and religions talking about Muhammad (pbuh), it's not biased at all. If you have something in your mind then it's your opinion which could be wrong!

  236. In an attempt to get any sort of understanding Islam I watched this after I watched "Islam: What the West Needs to Know." I watched them back to back.

    On the first video there are muslims making noise that it was a biased piece of dangerous propaganda. I agree it was biased but this video is equally so. It focusses a lot on the heroic fireman, the female doctor. Fair enough. If I was making a party political broadcast I would do the same. And that's how this very biased video comes across.

    This doc is virtually the complete opposite of "Islam: What the West Needs to Know." Whereas that one details and explains by Quran scripture what an evil Islam CAN be, this video gushes about what a lovely person Mohammed was. It glosses over all the murders, the paedophilic act of consummating his marriage with a 9 year old (But bless him huh - he waited 3 years after the marriage to the child!) It does in some part describe how he spread HIS religion through war and trickery to people that wanted absolutely nothing to do with it. It suspiciously makes no mention of the "kill all infidels" scriptures whilst painting this story of peace and love.

    This religion and it's equally repugnant Sharia laws clearly has no place in any type of modern society. This doc loses all credibility for me when the narrators (31 minutes in) start describing Mo as some sort of woman's rights activist. Maybe it's true that he improved women's circumstances at that period of time but of course no mention of female circumcision for one thing. Whilst Islam may have worked 1400 years ago it was a primitive time.

    I will not deny that it is incredible story of a religion that by all accounts survived against massive odds. A person who must have been very charismatic and intelligent; but this same person told his people (its all there in his book) that infidels have seven intestines. That the gender of babies is determined by which partner orgasmed first. Maybe that's why the practice of slicing off young girl's clitoris and labials. Plenty of other rubbish too.

  237. He was & wil remain The best of human kind that ever humanity seen or will ever see.

  238. Much better than this is the book by Martin Lings, Muhammad: His Life from the Earliest Sources.

    He was the Curator of Original Arabic Manuscripts at Cambridge University, UK. He later converted to Islam.

    1. Didn’t realise we were using made up names

  239. MashaAllah....SubhanAllah...JazakAllah for sharing this wonderful piece of truth about Hazrat Muhammad Mustafa Salal Laho Alahe Wa-alehi Wasalam not just in front of Muslims but to our non-muslim brothers & sisters as well.

    May Allah tabrakwatala give you Jaza for this beautiful act...Aamin Ya rabal Aalameen.

    Warmest Regards