Where Are We Now and Where Are We Going (Lectures)

Ratings: 8.45/10 from 29 users.


Where Are We Now and Where Are We Going (Lectures)Mr. Joseph had been lecturing on the unsustainable nature of the money-based economy - on cyclical consumption, planned obsolescence, corporate malfeasance and piles of poisonous waste.

It’s time that we wake up, he intoned, speaking solemnly through a wireless clip-on mike. The doomsday scenario, the big contraction, might be happening right now. The system of monetary exchange is - in the face of advancing technology - completely obsolete.

Z-Day events were taking place from New England to New Zealand, but this was the big one: the marquee happening with the marquee names.

There, in the crowd, was Jacque Fresco, an industrial designer and the engineering guru of what people unironically called the movement. Mr. Fresco, an elfin 93-year-old, sat beside his partner, Roxanne Meadows, smiling self-effacingly.

Though they were never actually shown - as most in attendance had seen them several times - Mr. Peter Joseph’s two films, Zeitgeist, the Movie and Zeitgeist: Addendum, were the subtext of the evening: online documentaries that have been watched, he says, by 50 million people around the world.

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74 Comments / User Reviews

  1. esmuziq

    jaques fresqo is the man

    u should put the full docu's on here
    together with michael tsarion he speaks similar in many ways

  2. Refa

    @ esmuziq
    Jacque Fresco is the man indeed. He makes it all sound very simple, unlike Peter Joseph in this lecture.

    But what's that about Michael Tsarion, isn't that some 2012 doomsday lunatic? Does he give a real alternative to the corrupt system of today's world, like Jacque Fresco does with The Venus Project?

  3. me


    This should be filed under comedy!

  4. Tyler Durden

    Great Talk and presentation, We can do this! It may not be in my life time or yours but it has to start somewhere. This isn't perfect but as Jacque always says "it's at least far better than what we have now" The Movement is gaining momentum, over 100,000 new member in the last 4 months. It makes me happy to see so many people becoming informed and thinking towards their future and the future of their children and children's children. Living for the ME ME ME has taken it's toll on us as humans and the planet as a whole, it's time for healing people. These ideas and concepts are the key to that and the only alternative to our self imposed destruction.

  5. isabella

    -have been observing Jacque Fresco for several years, now. I am leaving this cooment so I can be notified of comments.

    I liked the ZM films, but am not entirely sold that ZM is not a cult. (as in fear based indoctrination, follow the leader, give leader all your attention, work for leader for free, devote your life to movement.. etc)

    would like read others point of view.

  6. bla

    really hard to get through.

    i can do it in two minutes.


  7. Refa

    @ isabella:

    To adress your concerns:

    -Fear based indoctrination: No such thing in The Venus Project, you should go to people like Alex Jones for that. TVP gives hope for a better future. Getting from here to there is somewhat difficult though.

    -Follow the leader: I would say follow the inspiration, Fresco is hardly a leader.

    -Give leader all your attention: that's nonsense, although some people do give all their attention to the movement. If they can spare the time, I don't see the problem.

    -Work for leader for free: I work for nobody for free. But if some people give somthing for free to the community, again, I see no problem. That attitude is what gave us Open Source Software for example, and is the reason you can watch documentary's online for free.

    -Devote your life to the movement: Well, if some people chose to devote their life to the community, then maybe you and me don't need to do anything anymore. We can just get everything for free and live a nice quiet (and sustainable) life near some beautiful beach. Wanna come...;)?

    As for me, I would love to see the Zeitgeist Movement make The Venus Project a reality, because it might well be our last best hope for the future.

  8. 420 Vision

    This is definetly what we need to evolve into as a society,.. less we decide to take the easy road and become complete slaves.

  9. BobbyD


  10. 420 Vision

    @ME,. your best hope is to start learning now !

  11. rhea

    The Truth.
    Wonderfully fascinating.
    Thank you!

  12. WiseAtheist

    To those who give negative comments about this movement to change the world, please just once give an alternative.

    Criticism is healthy and required, so that we continue to improve and notice our pitfalls and mistakes. By cynicism is not welcome. And criticism for the sake of stirring trouble and childish remarks is a human trait that we need to work hard to obliterate, because look where it got us.

    So I politely ask those with negative remarks to please give what their alternative views are. What else do you have in mind as a mechanism to fix this sick world of ours: waste, pollution, debt, wars, hatred, racism, greed. When will humanity grow up, evolve its societies to the higher level of consciousness and responsibility?

  13. scooba

    what I find interesting about this forum in relation to the ZM is that it is a perfect example of a reason why it would/might struggle to work - that there are differing points of view. One person states that this idea is rubbish and impossible. One says the opposite. It all becomes politics, where your aproach to a problem is not the same one I would take.

    While it's all very well to dismiss the 'human nature' argument, I know enough people who couldn't be arsed contributing to their own wellbeing - let alone becoming part of a homogenous society.

    Who's to say everyone will be happy looking out at vistas of ultra futuristic landscapes. if Im using a car and someone grab it to use it for something else - it might not be theft - but it'll still be f'kn annoying!

    There are so many good points in this movement, I find the concept appealing - but I struggle to rationalise them all realisticly.

    sorry if this is a bit rambling :P

  14. doc-fan

    wow they work in over 200 countries in the world! Weird isn't there 194 countries said to exist? or google lies? Other thought... no property? no advantages of having more money? seems kind of boring, don't you all think?

  15. Anon Amouse

    I suggest anyone who is truly believing everything in this documentary and the Zeitgeist Movies should use the Google and u tube machines to search for these items (Jacque Fresco, Zeitgeist Movement, The Venus Project) with the keywords that are opposite of your initial feelings (things like "scam" and "cult" or "benefit" and "positive reviews") You should really know what both sides of the story are before you make a choice.

    and before you start bashing me for liking or hating the movement, keep this quote in mind

    "People who believe they have the truth should KNOW they believe it, rather than BELIEVE they know it." - Jules Lequier

  16. TriforceV

    Interesting point of view,

    We need more people who can think out of the box
    But can this project truly work?, is it this a scam as some have claimed?

    I mean I won't be joining any cults, or blindly follow any organization.
    However, I will certainly embrace a positive paradigm shift from any direction if it ever presents itself.

    The question for me really is If?, How? or When? something like this could possibly happen?... I'll have to admit, the prospects are kind of grim.

  17. esmuziq

    @refa michael tsarion talks about past origins of civilizations and atlantis and many other things

    he doesnt really talk al that much about 2012 actually :)

  18. JimAtherton

    A few idea's for people to respond. First of all, although TVP would obviously deny this, but this idea smacks of communism whilst trying to ignore 'Reds under the bed' Syndrome.Also, Dont get me wrong I am all for the Idea (that would work on paper like most S.E exercises).. but does these guy know it would take tens of thousands of years to undo social engineering??, You cannot change societies ills that have inheritly progressed throughout generations without some kind of natural selection pressure driving people to change. Think the 'Fight or Flight' response, evolving society will have absoulety NO effect unless there is a natural social pressure to change that the majority can individually recognise. Otherwise it will be an endless generational 'training' cycle. And if you say 'Global Warming'...then think again cause it obviously has no agreement between leaders.

  19. Wayne

    I'm and old man and i want robots to make anything i need so I don't have to get out of my rocking chair except to drive a shared vehicle to the locl travel tube so I can take a trip to a vacation island.

  20. jim

    Isabella: Here is the reason why we are not a cult:

    Here is the dictionary definition of the word cult:

    1 : formal religious veneration : worship
    2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
    3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adhe...rents
    4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator
    5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
    b : the object of such devotion
    c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

    I would start off by saying that I only recognize 'cult' as a distinction specifically used to ostracize any new idea regardless of it's merits through a perceived threat by mainstream thinking. This term would have applied to the 'mooniacs' who said they wanted to go to the moon. Then they did it and they were then not called mooniacs anymore. So ultimately I find the word to be a non entity inherently due to it's derogatory nature at it's source and never takes into account the validity of the given idea in question.

    Lets break this definition down point by point, Just for shits and giggles to see which bits we share............

    1 : formal religious veneration : worship

    We worship nothing. We promote an idea.

    2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

    We have no rituals or religious beliefs.

    3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

    See answer to question 2.

    4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator

    We use the scientific method which is basically feedback from the environment. Not a shred of Dogma in sight. We will be wrong when proper scientific study tells us we are. Hopefully you can see how this relates to health cults and cures for disease. We do not do this. We do science.

    5 a : great devotion to a person,

    Jacque Fresco and Peter Joseph have never claimed to be infallible and I will question them (and I have) as soon as they can not back up what they say or I disagree with them. That does not sound very 'cult' like to me.


    Using money is an idea and is therefore a cult by definition no? Of course not. TVP is an idea but as is going down the shops. To say that because you are devoted to something makes it a cult is like saying that every musician is a member of the music cult. It is dumb. That is why the very term 'cult' (like our language) is flawed.




    The question of validity of the idea comes into question again here. Not the fact it is a movement. Movements start due to an idea so once again you have to go to the root and question the idea itself. TVP as an idea is rooted in science so as soon as it is wrong it adapts. Truth is emergent and so we should be if we are to survive as a species and create the necessary emergent society in which to do so.

    or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

    This really exemplifies what I am talking about. No one can prove that TVP is 'a literary or intellectual fad' and until they do so (using inferential logic and reason) then the conclusion is that it is not and therefore stands as a valid concept.

    b : the object of such devotion

    No objects are worshiped.

    c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

    We can not be characterized by such devotion by the very notion that TVP stands up to all criticism making it a relevant idea due to it's empirical logic, and like I said earlier in this description makes the idea worthwhile to commit to if you have a disposition towards human progress (much like being an artist or a musician)

    On another note we are all for pulling people and organizations that have an orientation towards sustainability together but we can not break with what logic insists. That is that the long term aim has to be to eradicate money. If they do not agree with that aim in the long run then I struggle to see the common ground. Greenpeace and friends of the earth want to solve problems with the same methods of thinking used when the problems were created. That is not going to happen I am afraid. People need to wake up and investigate these ideals properly or were fucked. x


  21. mike

    I can't help feeling this is not actually a lecture, and it is edited to make it look like a lecture.

  22. Arkon

    “People who believe they have the truth should KNOW they believe it, rather than BELIEVE they know it.” – Jules Lequier.

    HAHAHA!...Worst quote ever!

    be·lieve (b-lv)
    v. be·lieved, be·liev·ing, be·lieves
    1. To accept as true or real:

    The reader must not the words "To accept"

    Lets replace a few words with those of the same meaning.

    “People who 'have faith' they have the truth should KNOW they have faith in it, rather than 'have faith' they know it.”

  23. stalin

    Communism doesn't work. I want 150 pairs of boots to choose from.

  24. MetsuShoryuken

    I really liked this guy and Fresco when I first began watching these types of docos. Honestly, though, they never say a word about how we get from where we are now, to their end goal. I think they may even be more propaganda for the elite of the world. Their goals don't seem that different. Only difference I see is they replace puppet governments with a computer.

  25. The Omega Man

    While I value much of the original Zeitgeist movie, I have specific points of disagreement with some claims in 'where are we going'. First, he shows the graphic comparing average incomes with life expectancy since 1800, then says the thing that stands out the most is the growing gap between the Western and non-Western world. But what stands out to me the most is the improvements in the least-developed world--the whole bottom of the cluster moves UP significantly. The growing gap cannot be denied, but neither can the rising tide lifting all boats, so to speak.

    The other point of disagreement that comes to mind is when he examines prison populations in different countries, implies that all prisoners are in for violent crimes, (not true), correlates these rates of incarceration (for ALL reasons) with proportionate income gaps in these countries, and concludes that gaps between rich and poor cause crime, specifically in America. But the USA doesn't incarcerate so many of its own people because we are necessarily more violent. We imprison more of our own people than any other country in the world because our governments, at all levels, make too damn many laws and criminalize too damn many things. A high percentage of our prisoners are incarcerated for non-violent drug-related crimes, and other crimes having nothing to do with malice or rage. He is too eager to lay all the blame for our ills on capitalism and the profit motive--and corporations are certainly not blameless--but ignores the causative role of government in our current state of affairs. Money is influence...but government is control. Absent government power, corporations have much less ability to act on us. Which is the root cause, and which is the catalyst?

    On the whole, though, I think Peter does a great job in explaining just what is wrong with the world today, and informing people of some of the things going on around them that they don't see, particularly in the first Zeitgeist movie, which I recommend. But his solutions seem like vague unrealistic utopias.

  26. dan26

    What is worth keeping from this system? Anyone, and when you decide it you can compare it to TVP point of view.

    Without utopia there is no better future!

    Wow can we get there? TVP was possible in 1920. If 2500000000 are aware of the benefits you dont have to fight anymore.
    Then we say this was just a ride, lets change it.
    It have already started.

  27. Jose

    Good Point.
    I am under 30 and when I was growing up in a small Island, 1KG of fresh fish was under $0.50 cents. Today it’s $2.50 equivalent after conversion from local currency, which of course is a lot of money for the average local. We did not need much money to live, people lived based on exchange. Today, the same things that people used to exchange are now being sold, bought at unreasonable prices.
    We did not need a lawyer, nor police or military, the community was fair and everyone knew what to do. No one was above the rules, it was common sense and it worked. There was order. And YES I mean it.
    “The Island has lost its virginity” as my girl puts it and alongside the good will of the people, (You can guess what happened there).
    That pile of paper could have well been some color coded balls or dice or something else. It really should not have been the essential key element to our society.

  28. Jose

    You asked a very fair question.
    And I will tend to think that the current framework/fabric of our society is very influential on how one see communism, capitalism, etc, etc. None of them is perfect, nor could they have been with the influence of dominance, power, money and all the essential elements that drove the thought-lines of these movements.

    We really need a better world and a better language. If English, it need to be corrected, and I really mean it.

  29. Aniubik

    Before you say anything, read, listen or think about judging remember that everything we think and feel is influenced by what we were exposed to since we started multiplying from one cell inside our moms, we were all babies at one point in our lives (even ppl like Hitler lol) and some of us were born in a more negative environment than others but none of us actually got to decide that. So every time you start to feel bad because of something you or someone feels, says or does remember that. Every negative thing in our lives spawns from fear, and we all were exposed to different amounts of it but we never got to decide anything about that. And for me thats the basic thing that the ZM wants to change, the level of positive emotion exposure our future descendent's are going to get. Whats wrong with that? Or what bad can come of that?

    Sorry for bad grammar English is my second language.

  30. Simon

    I disagree on two points
    You have freedom of choice in choosing a job, your choce of jobs is often based on your ambition, ambition is not necesarily based on the pursuit of self enrichment, one could choose to help the poor, hence take jobs which reflect he's ambition, one could choose to follow the status quo and be a banker, in which case makes job selection which allows him to reach that ambition, i.e. go to school, get a job in finance.
    The Rich remain rich, the poor remain poor.
    Though countless rich have become richer even due to the recession, thousands as well have become poorer, some of the rchest men in the world had been wretched at birth.

    The other issues concerning the lack of sustainability of the current system and it's doomed future state are reasonable, but I can see no Utopic solutions which will solve it, whilst human emotions such as greed and fear exist.

  31. Dreaded Halo

    everyone! subscribe to the site and stay updated every Z-Day to take action.

    time for REAL change in human history.

  32. m. brian

    So communism 2.0? But, hey give these guys a shot, maybe carve out a new chunk of land in Canada and see how this experiment turns out. My guess is self-destruction, but anything can happen...

  33. Aniubik

    If you are going to compare it with communism you should point out the similarities first.
    Resource Based Economy = Communism 2.0? Really?
    Please do explain.

  34. hmcgwn

    As an adult educator and social scientist I feel that a radical shift in society today is of the highest importance for eradicating inequality,which will require also the eradicating of greed.It is common where researched that a lot of what this presaentation suggests is true.And as yet it is probably one of the most in-depth alternative ideas that I have came across.
    However,I have doubts about how some things would be kept from going underground in a black market type industry.One issue would be the production,manufacturing and distribution of what is seen as not being a social norm,namely drugs and sexual desires among others.
    Would these frowned upon behaviours be illicit and regulated?
    No-one in this world is exactly the same as anyone else.
    People have different likes and dislikes,wants and desires etc. People will always desire the things which they can't have,and this is the fuel for underground trading and the like.Thus greed and all that goes with it.If someone wants something outwith the norm,then someone will be willing to provide it for something in return.
    That would not be the main hurdle though in this transformation.
    We live in a state of what has been termed by a number of great thinkersa s a false consciousness.Paulo Freire elaborated on this and suggested that there are at least 3 levels of false consciousness people live within.
    1 Magical conciousness.This is where people lay the blame for their hardships within the realm of superstition.It is saw as being gods work,luck,or other types of mystical fates which desteny has dealt us which causes the hardships people endure.
    2 Nieve consciousness where our situation is saw as being just the way things are,"things will never change."The individual feels thgat it is impossible to change the situation,therfore is willing to carry on with "their lot","make the best of it" attitudes.
    3 Critical consciousness.This is where the individuals begin to look outwith their own lives or community to the wider socio-political inequalities,and link things to economical injustices around them,among other critical views where they feel that something needs to be done to change things.
    Once a person or group moves through these levels the reach a state of consceientization where they then begin to collectively move towards social justice and enviromental sustainability.
    How would this movement do this on a world wide scale?I'm sure that there would be an endless list of injustices handed down to those on the ground who are working with people for change this way.They would probably be cast as undesirable revolutionaries,slandered,jailed,propagised demonised or otherwised silenced by those who have most to lose.
    People don't like change,and people who have the means to keep the masses this way will do.
    I'm all for the movement in general but human nature will be the major holdback for a world like this because our nature will always wish to exert power and influence over others.This will keep inequality going forever.

  35. qac mullah

    wait..... with money out of the equation, will our social norms not be smacked out of focus. I'm thinking celebrity worship and keeping up with the jones' and footballers getting all the best looking girls.

    no charity, no wars, and you have to be interesting to have friends...

    love it,

  36. eric in ga

    this is an extremely simple concept to grasp IF you have already knocked down all your own personal straw men. if you haven't considered certain issues then yes, they can seem surmountable, and no doubt some issues will take different time lengths to solve or lessen. I personally always fall back in my mind to this position when i find something that yells at me " oh no! it's broken! " Communism and capitalism and every 'ism' we have ever as a species tried has had limited success. None were complete failures, but none have succeeded either! I am not happy limiting myself to limited success, when there is a sustainable method to , for instance, feed every human without settling for cheap hamburgers and protein paste cooked in a GMO lab. Always I would recommend research with an eye for the detail learned rather than the tone it is spoken in.I would love to limit hunger and war with science rather than promote them! Have fun all.

  37. eric in ga

    "qac mullah10/03/2010 at 03:21

    wait….. with money out of the equation, will our social norms not be smacked out of focus. I’m thinking celebrity worship and keeping up with the jones’ and footballers getting all the best looking girls.

    no charity, no wars, and you have to be interesting to have friends…

    love it,"

    I love your comment! it so on the money, and yet another aspect of it I hadn't considered.

  38. eric in ga

    "The other issues concerning the lack of sustainability of the current system and it’s doomed future state are reasonable, but I can see no Utopic solutions which will solve it, whilst human emotions such as greed and fear exist." previous posters comment ^

    Belief in utopia is establishment thinking and not practical in a dynamic equilibrium. These folk do not speak of utopia at all.

  39. eric in ga

    @ The Omega Man
    I dont think you and I watched the same clip! P.J. clearly stated that the vast majority of jailed offenders are in for money related and midemeanor crimes, and are not of the violent persuasion. The bulk of convictions are monetarily related offences, with narcotics possesion offences also being large. Violent criminals are the 'rarity' across prison populations in USA. Im not quoting, just relaying what I picked out of the clip. P.J.s point was that removing profit incentive automatically removes a HUGE portion of criminal activity.

  40. eric in ga

    okay my last 'pick on' you The Omega Man (and I'm not picking t.b.h. just offering more in depth understanding of your criteria of argument.

    in your post you say "While I value much of the original Zeitgeist movie, I have specific points of disagreement with some claims in ‘where are we going’. First, he shows the graphic comparing average incomes with life expectancy since 1800, then says the thing that stands out the most is the growing gap between the Western and non-Western world. But what stands out to me the most is the improvements in the least-developed world–the whole bottom of the cluster moves UP significantly. The growing gap cannot be denied, but neither can the rising tide lifting all boats, so to speak."

    1800 AD in vast regions of the 3rd world 'barter' was a common method of trade, also 'slave labor' was. neither of these types of trade are valued in a monetary chart.

  41. eric in ga

    previous post reads

    Anon Amouse08/06/2010 at 04:50

    I suggest anyone who is truly believing everything in this documentary and the Zeitgeist Movies should use the Google and u tube machines to search for these items (Jacque Fresco, Zeitgeist Movement, The Venus Project) with the keywords that are opposite of your initial feelings (things like “scam” and “cult” or “benefit” and “positive reviews”) You should really know what both sides of the story are before you make a choice.

    and before you start bashing me for liking or hating the movement, keep this quote in mind

    “People who believe they have the truth should KNOW they believe it, rather than BELIEVE they know it.” – Jules Lequier"

    yep, did that several times, even see new ones on occasion. they score about 3/10 on average. 7/10 are merely ranting, and 3/10 can actually make you think, which is good. I've watched probably 50+ debunks, rebuttals, alternate choices ... result for me is RBE. it is the only one I've come across that has a built in compassion for humans circuit. The other alts are just same deal, money changes colour + hyper ranting. Rebuttals 90% fall into the 'can't change human nature' arena, which I have also researched a fair bit and while there are indeed some areas of human nature (IE: 100% ingrained by dna actions) they are the easiest natures to create an abundance for. The rest of human nature amounts to personal choice, guided by environmental(societal) responses. Call it human value, and you are on the money.

    I do not in any way believe or know that I know the truth in any complete way, nor will I ever. I have researched the bits of it that pertained to my questions, and I am eager for more information on them. If you haven't read the FAQs on TVP and TZM websites, then you dont have all the info yet. They are quite large bodies of information, and include references and guide materials, links to tools etc. Check em if you get a day off sometime :)
    Ciao for now

  42. eric in ga

    doc-fan08/06/2010 at 01:30

    wow they work in over 200 countries in the world! Weird isn’t there 194 countries said to exist? or google lies? Other thought… no property? no advantages of having more money? seems kind of boring, don’t you all think?"

    actually I don't think having access to say the Palomar Observatory anytime I want for free would be boring at all. Merely choosing to devote time to learning quantum theory in all its infinite complexity,for free, with the best available tools in the world bores me not at all. Investigating a better method of feeding the hungry we now have sounds fun and rewarding. Selecting a durable iPod that packs the punch of a desktop, and lasts for 30 years (upgradable) (recyclable) sounds neat. I could go on, but I wont. Spend time looking at trends that are current in technology, and ask yourself why you aren't on the leading edge of it all? We are all primarily bystanders to the interesting things going on today. I think having the choices offered in this RBE would be very explosive in the minds of the world. Weapons of Mass Creation is a term I hear in a few of the mini docs out there. Its a term I could get behind, no problem.

  43. eric in ga

    anyone seeking an informed opinion about what you call Human Nature should search RobertSapolsky-BiologyAndHumanBehavior . Its a very informative and long length, in depth scientific study of all currently available knowledge on the topic, in a university style lecture. He's a Stanford U prof. I daresay he's done some homework on the subject. Watch it, create your own view of 'what is human nature?'. Enjoy

  44. hedwerx

    You can tell he's a little nervous, and he seems to use long words sometimes just for the sake of it.
    Although it's interesting regardless.

  45. hedwerx

    Oh and the Ancient Greek values of Democracy he talks about.
    The power of Athens and by extension the Athenian Hegemony was built on Slavery and War, alongside Political and Economic domitiation.

    Sound familliar?

  46. (A)

    I would recommend people to read about "Anarchism" (a.k.a. Libertarian Communism), as explained by Kropotkin, Bakunin, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman (he has a great book titled 'What is Anarchism?').
    If you think this is a new trend, look into history: the Paris Commune, the first months of the Russian revolution and the creation of the Soviets before Lenin and the Bolsheviks took control, the Makhnovshchina in Ukraine, the Kronstadt rebellion, the anarcho-syndicalist revolution in Spain (1936-1939), etc.

  47. Creatio-whaa!?

    Protip: Using lots of big words does not make your ideas any better.

  48. Paris

    First of all i think the point of the presentation was to START to think about the changes that need to be made if we are to progress as a society, by giving outlines of what is very possible through technology today.

    The whole part of how human nature with all its fallacies will incorporate itself and ultimately change the lifestyle they are proposing, he leaves open ended by saying, we cannot think right now of every possibility that might and will arise, or something along the terms. the question nay sayers should be asking is, is what were doing right now the BEST we can do?? And this presentation has started tackling it beautifully.

    Secondly at (A)'s comments:
    Of course the idea is not new but a building on the ideas of great men before, just like those men built on the pillars of ideas from philosophers and men before them. but if you want to compare then this plan finally fulfills the criteria in Marx's theory in order for his ideas to work. Quote from wiki "In Marxist theory, communism is a specific stage of historical development that inevitably emerges from the development of the productive forces that leads to a SUPERABUNDANCE OF MATERIAL WEALTH, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely-associated individuals.[2][3] To this day, no country has had that one requirement met, and in the view of TZM and TVP technology will work to provide that, so that all of mankind can benefit.


    "The power of Athens and by extension the Athenian Hegemony was built on Slavery and War, alongside Political and Economic domitiation.
    Sound familliar?"

    What he means is, because of cheap slave Labour doing all the work for free, the ancient Romans were freed to pursue ideas and philosophy which has built the foundations of the western society to this day, and that TECHNOLOGY will do this for US, so that all of us can do the same in our time for the betterment of humanity in the future.

    @m. Brian
    You should know that every country or leader to this day that you've read about who has claimed to be a communist and socialist, was NEITHER communist nor socialist. It was a perversion of both, and either way, they were all just as inadequate as what capitalism has become today. So its not communism 2.0. If all you see this is as communism, then its pure communism, with technology as the great equalizer. But because of the connotation that term brings, i think this needs a better term, for the better movement that it is.

    And whichever idiot that suggested it might be the elites who are secretly behind this movement, obviously didn't watch, didn't listen or has peas for brains.

  49. ZeroHype

    Zeitgeist is not a cult with a leader who people work for free. Never have I heard such nonsense.

    It's a collective group of like minded people who believe that instead of supporting a capitalist society as we do now, we need to change to a resource based economy where we put the caring capacity of the Earth as the primary decision maker in how we forge our society.

    So all opposed to this view believe we just carry on using all the worlds resources until they run out, and that the monetary system is the answer to al our problems? Yeah that's really working out great isn't it with countries currently going bankrupt.

    For all who want change to gather momentum get involved with the Zeitgeist Movement and The Venus Project. Nobody is going to make you pledge to hand over your soul or have you living in a commune, what utter garbage and idiocy.

    It's all on us, there is no them and us, there is just us and we are responsible for change. The haters and debunkers will always be there, so if Zeitgeist made you think about what you can do to help change, you do whatever you can to make change happen. That's the point, nobody needs to be led.

  50. the loler

    I liked this guys talks. The idiotic waste of resources that competition brings with it is something Ive harked on about for ages, more often than not on deaf ears, and its nice to see someone else on the same page.

    Im not 100% sold though, Im behind these sort of ideas, but I think the shift to where this guy sees the future is so great, and the complexity of what he sugests so great that I am not convinced it is practical, as much as it appeals to me.

    Presumably if I loved chocolate cake, then I could just order the ingredients and make myself one. But what if I was addicted to it? If I wanted to make 4 huge cakes a day and eat them all, would that be ok? Would there ever be a point where my consumption of resources would be limited? Would I litterally be alowed to sit at home and eat cake till it killed me? Who would stop me? And under what authority?

    Would drugs be illegal? Presumably with no law thats impossible, so what if I wanted to rail my way through 10 grams of cocaine a day till it killed me? Would this be provided by internet order for free as well? If not, how would one go about aquiring cocaine? and who gets to decide that I cant aquire it if that is the case? The machines? Do the computers decide what is 'healthy' for me? If so will they still alow me to make chocolate cake, given Id be better off eating a salad? Where is the line? who draws the line? how is the line enforced? The complexity of details in the general idea the venus crew have Im sure hasnt escaped them but surely cant be acounted for untill you give the idea a bash, an impossible amount of variables, hence the application of their wide sweeping ideas, I feel, would be the most massive challenge human beings have ever undergone and I dont believe we can really know if it will work untill its actually given a shot.

    I like these white curves everywhere in the future cities they envisage, but what if I didnt? I want a toaster for my kitchen, would there only be 1 model of toaster now available to me? The 'optimal' toaster? What if its design, astheticly, didnt suit my tastes or my kitchen? Or would it have to match my kitchen given everything in my kitchen was the only version of said product available and hence everyones kitchen looks exactly the same as they all have the same fridge, the same kettle, the same worktops etc? Who decides the style it is all made in? Do we go back to the computers? The computers decide the optimal styling of everything in the world given the data we have inputed?

    As much as I hate capitalism and the way we live, and would love to see these guys ideas come true and actually work, these sorts of things are acounted for in the current model, and I still dont have an idea of how they would be acounted for in this one. If someone has an idea for how they would like a toaster to look, they can take it upon themselves and make that toaster, if people like it they buy it, it becomes a sucess. How does that work in the venus idea? At what pont do you alow someones personal taste to be given the green light? And what measures could be put in place to stop people just coming up with half baked ideas in these areas all day long and completely bog down the system? Humans have tastes, desires etc that cant be broken down to maths, there are thing beyond the crunch of numbers inside an electrical device, and Im yet to see how these things can be taken into acount.

    Is the idea that through the social conditioning of the society we will all become more alike and the desire for an individual to sit in a black and purple stripped kitchen with a toaster shaped like a teddy bear, stuffing his face with cocaine and chocolate cake would somehow be bred out of humanity? That peoples experience will limit them to one set of ideas when it comes to these things and hence either everyone will have the purple and black drug kitchen or no one at all as desire itself has become uniform? Then it quickly starts to sound like the sort of idea that I would greatly oppose. I dont think thats what they have in mind, I think the venus lot are honest and well intentioned, but I think that machines cant decide everything, there are matters that are beyond them, and at some point a human being is going to have to step in and make a call on a lot of these sort of issues im bringing up, who will that person be? And how do you get past that without entering into yet another dictatorship or creating some sort of clone-like society where people dont have vastly different tastes and ideals in the first place?

    The guy mentions that while what he sugests sounds very idyllic its actually all based on hard facts and number crunching. But surely believing that so much of human society, its direction, its desires etc can be broken down to statistics and somehow proccessed to some sort of optimal balance where everyone is happy by a computer is in itself an idyllic notion, and at some point someone is ging to have to step in and make a call on things that some people arnt going to agree with, and hence some form of heirarchy amoung people is surely inevitable for it to work, no? No matter the tasks, the most efficiant teams I have ever been a part of had a leader, its essential that someone has executive authority over a situation to get things done, make calls that have to be made. Does day 1 of the venus project put into practice consist of 70 million interested parties from around the globe debating the styling of 'the' toaster together on the internet in a friendly fasion? How many years will the debate rage before the ugly hand of hierarchy steps in and says enough, we need a toaster, this is what its going to be and if you dont like it you can suck an egg because Im the guy who makes the call?

  51. LexiconLon

    These ideas are not new. It all denies human nature,ie selfishness, and idolizes the impossibility that mankind could be benevolently selfless. It is a false morality. Human nature should be at the pivotal consideration of every social movement. Man will always have individual values and to each his own idiosyncrasies. This idea of Equality cannot exist. Equality is reality. We all play on the same level field. By its nature, I suppose you could say a battle field. To say all are equal is to deny the great and virtuous, the hardworking and ambitious. This is based in the same premises as COMMUNISM...

  52. LexiconLon

    Wow really? Are they seriously proposing that it would be possible to eliminate all class stratification and competition within the human psyche??? I suppose the portion of our brains responsible for value judgments should become obsolete as well. All things, people and ideas should suddenly become equally valued?

    Someone please respond. I've GOT to hear some form of argument/elucidation on this issue...

  53. Bad_conduct

    I totally agree with the first part. Money is absolutely corrupt and worthless. The western world just works endlessly to have more debt.

    The solution he proposes... I think not. That's also slavery. I agree with using and implementing new technology, and allowing those technologies to compete directly with corporations, and allowing those corporations to go out of business without tax bail out (there will always be other jobs, but they shouldn't force us to work a meaningless job).

    Banks should eliminate bank fee's, or alternate banks with Gold standard backing should be allowed to compete.

  54. Bad_conduct


    It's arguable that we are breed to behave the way we do, in the class system we live in. Directly (people keep certain classes apart) or indirectly (classes tend to stay together).

    It is possible to eliminate knowledge, but our constant craving for knowledge will bring it back 10 fold.

  55. Enric

    I was going to listen this man but decided to go to suicide girls and watch pinups instead. This is human nature, deal with it. We won't move that far from here.

  56. Benjamin

    On the human nature argument... it's that kind of thinking that has kept us competing with one another. If you watched the whole lecture he focuses on the human nature argument, and how it is a false argument. I won't bother going into any explanations but human values and ideas are formed almost entirely from their environment.

    Here's an easy test for everyone out there - are you an immoral being? Would you destroy lives to benefit your own? Would you murder? Or would you help your fellow man, be kind and co-operate? Believe it or not but there are people in this world like that. I know I am one of those people.

    So how can we put it down to human nature? If it really were just that, every single being in this world would have to hold the same corrupted views. We'd have killed ourselves off a long time ago if that were actually the case.

    This movement may seem like a far-fetched utopian dream at first glance, but the more you look into it, the more you will see that not only is that kind of world quite possible, but it almost seems inevitable.

  57. zerohype


    You have completely missed the point of what he is saying, did you skim watch it?

    He does not put it down to human nature, he states that we are products of our environment, external influence is everything.

    I'm not sure how you missed that, but hopefully this will help you adjust your view of the movement. The movement is trying to improve life on earth for every living person, and look after the planet.

    How are those things bad?


  58. Benjamin


    Um.. did you read my comment? I don't understand how you interpreted my comment to the exact opposite of what it meant. My comment agrees with every point you just made.

    Is this some kind of joke? I'm confused.

  59. Ryan


    Sorry Benjamin, the way you wrote your comment I skim read it and read it incorrectly.

    My bad, apologies.

  60. Benjamin

    No worries, I should have made it clear that my comment was in response to some of the above comments.

    Right, all good :)

  61. tariqxl

    There is a big part of human nature to be addressed, you are right there are good people everyone is born good. But what the zeitgeist movement and a lot of people overlook is that your also born in fear. A baby before birth grows for nine months in a water sack with water in its lungs, until one day it purges. That sudden change in enviroment would scare us all, thats why some mothers have water births. We've evolved with fear from grouping togther in packs for protection to worrying if the next man has a bigger stick. The need to govern spans from the family unit, the head of the household governs the house, the dominent in a tribe would step forward to lead in times of migration or food shortages. These traits are seen in native american cultures, the tribe mentioned in the movie are isolated and never needed a protector or leader cast. The idea that fear is at the core of our actions is Buddhest philosophy adopted by Carl Jung. Notice patterns of recent years panic buying in japan, america experienced a baby boom after 9/11 because as you can see in plants all life spreads its seed in crisis situations to continue the species. Sales raise in survival equipment and ration supplies every time a new disaster movie comes out. Greed is inherent of fear and no new system can be built without its abuse until thats addressed

  62. Sabin Russell

    so why did zeitgeist stop working with the venus project?

  63. poopsquat

    LOl you bring up a lot of good points. i could'nt agree more

  64. Bill Braskey

    this is pie in the sky feelgoodery. greed and ambition have a definate dark side, but if you attempt to remove this element of human nature from society you are going to fail. it will take some other form in whatever farytale eutopian society that you try and dream up. if mr joseph wants to get rid of war and ambition he might as well go live with the bonobos, cuz this is who we are as homo sapiens. if it were'nt for the kind of innovation that was driven by the need to conduct wars, the technology that allows you to view this message would'nt exist.

  65. Declan_Walsh

    Fantasy Land

  66. Rocky Racoon

    The only dreamer's are the one's who think capitalism is the end of history and will continue forever with the USA as the Fifth Reich ruling forever after. They are going to destroy us all in their project for a new american century-thank you danial pearl, wolfowits and Rumsfeld and Chenny et al.

  67. Niko Camacho

    @ bill braskey... your mind is weak and outdated.. U say that things will never change because you've never seen anything different. U remind me of the people who said we'd never build a working flying machine... If your attention span won't allow you to watch the entire lecture, or you don't understand any of the words that are longer than 2 syllables, please don't litter the comment board with your fragmented and sophomoric opinion.. You'll encourage all the others with limited vocabulary and comprehension to join in your self defeating resistance to this inevitable progression.

  68. Winston Smith

    utter nonsense. People could be driven by the 'greed' to be creative or helpful to their fellows. To the development of technology. The simple fact is that automation is replacing the need for human labor as the population grows exponentially.

  69. Jojojojo Balasabas

    how then should anyone react to those who pursue militarism, imperialism, exploitation, and etc.,.....that is, in terms of all practicality, huh!

  70. Cassio Mosqueira

    Ironically, Sapolsky is in Zeitgeist Moving Forward film.

  71. avd420

    The Venus Project went broke.

  72. avd420

    "He does not put it down to human nature, he states that we are products of our environment, external influence is everything."

    Here's some things which we can infer from that statement:

    Perpetrators of crime should run free while we put the environment on trial. War, rape, slavery; nobodies fault.

    Being Gay is a choice, and so is being straight.

    "The movement is trying to improve life on earth for every living person, and look after the planet.

    How are those things bad?"

    Well, I would say they're bad because that motivation often leads to horrendous results. Think of everything that's happened in our bloody past that we consider to be evil. Now, think about how those that committed those actions were doing it because they genuinely believed it was what was best for the world.

    Forget about intentions, instead look at the action, and the possible consequences.

    Q: This concept relies so much on advancing technology. Are they not aware that free markets and the monetary system are the reason behind technology advancing this fast to begin with?

    This movement, in the end, is about selling the idea of utopia. Human beings are not wired for utopia. If we had it, we wouldn't recognize. Case and point: the fact that the zietgiest docs exist in the first place during what is the most prosperous time in the history of our species.

    Think if there actually was a utopia, think how much it would piss us off.

  73. Brian Titus

    I haven't watched this video yet (I was browsing the comments first), but wanted to respond to your comment.

    There is a simple answer to all of your questions: Personal responsibility, while keeping these three simple rules in mind (which can be summed up by "do no harm"):
    1) Do not harm another
    2) Do not harm the property of another
    3) Do not perform fraud in your contracts

    There are wide range of ideas what "harm" is, which is where courts come in. After that that, you are free to do whatever you want:

    - Eat yourself to death? If no one cares enough to help you stop then all the power to you.
    - Drink/drug yourself to death? Same answer as above.
    - Hurt someone while driving and being irresponsible (drinking, speeding, etc)? Spend the rest of your life paying for it when they sue you.

    I can't really comment on the materialistic ideas you present (ie: the toaster) as I have not watched the video yet, but I think I get your position. Why not a situation where there is a "default" everything that everyone gets for free that covers all the basic needs, and looks the same for everyone, then you can have normal companies that still create competing cosmetic differences of that item (ie: Hello Kitty Toaster). That way there is choice for you if you want it, and generic toaster for those that don't want to waste money on that type of thing and could put it towards something else.

    And a quick note on human nature. In this day and age the government and powers that be already controls our nature through media, medicine, and manipulation. If their actions were directed toward *good* things, then you can make the world change easily. In today's world (in this digital/information age) there are things that could be done to facilitate this process, including:
    - If schools taught from an early age to question things rather than blindly obeying the rules and authority. If schools also made students more dependent on their own learning . Rather than following a strict, *controlled* curriculum that hides/distorts a lot of things they would get more perspectives and come to their own conclusions (obviously except the science/facts/math itself would still be taught, but history/motivation could be developed by the student, rather than a single source (ie: government).
    - Media used to for proper use such as a tool for education (ie: lets drop out commercials and make educational snippets as an example). News outlets that must report only truth (did you know that legally they don't?) and must be held accountable.
    - Parents teaching respect and responsibility from the get go, because everything is about personal responsibility, and people CAN have it. Environment makes a HUGE deal.
    - Eliminate our current system of government and economy as they are both based on violence/force and slavery/oppression, which again is an environmental factor. Eliminate need, eliminate the majority of crime.

    Anyway, wife is growling at me to get this movie started. Have a good one!

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